PDA

View Full Version : GWs great mistake



Stu
03-01-2006, 22:03
When I was coming home today I started thinking about most of the threads I visited today and noticed there was a tendency to see the same subjects approached from diferent aspects.
Let's start with a bit of background on me to explain where I'm getting at. I run a small gaming club and have played, like many here, a large number of games from RPGs to CCGs and had contact with many other games.
I noticed that GW did/is still doing something fundamentally wrong especially in this kind of game, they simply forget the background story.
"What!!" I hear some of you screaming.
Yes, there is a lot of fluff. Yes, there are a lot of books that tell stories, however it's impossible for a player to tell what is happening. This might sound confusing, so I'll use examples.
A RPG called Vampire was created 10 years ago and was based in the drawing near of the end of the world. Last year the company edited a book describing the end of the world and giving options for the players&GM to choose which ending they prefered. The players were sad with the end of the story, yet it was a huge success because it was what people had been waiting for since the beginning of the game.
When I started thinking of the background of the 40k universe I felt a bit cheated because you get great stories but you never get the whole picture of the universe. Even if you try you won't be able to understand what is happening and where the story is going and even at GW central they won't know.
As someone wrote today they discard old fluff for comercial interess and this is IMHO very bad.
I think they should take some time and get the story together with a past/present/future (even if only they know).
Another thing they should do is start removing some of the Doomsday devices and Armaggedon prophecies they created making the universe a gigantic booby trap ready to explode.
Oh! and, ok, this is a sci fi game so I accept Deamons, Super human Warriors of Doom, Aliens (even the tyranid fleets) and the sort, however I can't accept some things they introduce in the story like the bureaucracy in the Imperium ; if it really was like that there would be no Imperium it would crumble in years eaten from the inside by people with power-lust fantasies and from the outside by aliens and chaos. World by world would fall weakening the Imperium.
There are other problems with GW, noticeably the fact that sometimes you get the felling they don't playtest certain rules/models they bring out, they don't check the books (fluff or rules) for mistakes (language and gaming content) and they forget that the "specialist" games are great to introduce new players to the universe (example, I started a BB league from which I introduced 5 players in 40k).I leave you alone now.
For those that read this post till the end thanks :)

violenceha
03-01-2006, 22:10
yes, i feel like the whole 40k universe is just passing me by as i sit here painting my miniatures. i still have no idea what the hell happened in that 13th black crusade or how it effected fluff. i think i've finally reached the stage where i just don't care anymore, i'm that old guy sitting on his porch watching the grass grow, to hell with the rest of the world.

Cadian 21st
03-01-2006, 22:15
- This is true. Alot of thier fluff tends to place humans along the lines of slave-ants to boot. Right now the Imperium sacrifices hundreds of Psykers a day to keep a corpse technically alive, and thousands more to keep a way-becon lit. The Imperium entered a dark-age of technolegy, but usually in other stories when this happens all the machiens are destroyed. Instead, all the books were destroyed, but the machines were kept as relics. Billions of men and women are conscripted into a doomed army. Orks grow from mushrooms, and the Tau somehow managed to stop the Imperium from destroying them with 1/1000th of the number of soldiers. Worlds die and are born every day, and everything seems to be crumbling. How is it that the 40k universe has lasted like this for almost 2 millenia already?

- I'd perfer if the Imperium was a collection of Empires, where each Empire was a star system (so in our case, out to Pluto or what have you). This would make billions of segments that could be ruled relatively easily and in an efficient manner, but alas, the Imperium is an evil empire where it's better to kill your babies rather then let them live, lol.

- yah, I agree with the whole bit about ignoring the past events that have/are happening, and especially dislike how GW thinks that the fluff for each codex is mutually exlusive. (If the whole 10 Space Marine chapters destroyed by a Kroot Battlestar actually happened, then the Tau empire would have been destroyed as a Chapter takes a really, really, really long time to complete). The playtest bit? Well, there are some...difficulties. GW seems to playtest by setting the new army against a generic Space Marine army, and that's the end of it. Please feel free to go against my thoughts, I swear I won't back them too much like my other posts, lol.

Cadian 21st
03-01-2006, 22:16
yes, i feel like the whole 40k universe is just passing me by as i sit here painting my miniatures. i still have no idea what the hell happened in that 13th black crusade or how it effected fluff. i think i've finally reached the stage where i just don't care anymore, i'm that old guy sitting on his porch watching the grass grow, to hell with the rest of the world.

- EXACTLY!!

Luke
03-01-2006, 22:17
you do have a point. my brother reads the fluff and he feels "its not realy going anywhere at the moment"

i dont read the fluff becuase i would sooner invent my own, which is what we had to do back in the day, when all we had were vague mentions of the terrible "horus heresy" and what not.

i am considering re-writing the 40k universe for myself as a personal project, just to see what i would make of it. hell, if its an good i may share it with you:D

sigur
03-01-2006, 22:21
No timeline proceedings, it would ruin everything. There is SO much great, established fluff and it's a great thing that there is no definitive story of the events from ~20k to 40k.

It's a shame that GW just doesn't support older fluff any more (it's much better for most parts), but that's where we, as the community, come into play. We have to show newbies where to find sources for older background, compile it, learn it and tell the newbies about it. It's our duty.:)

warwizard_99
03-01-2006, 22:34
Tht and with what Sabertooth has done to it, it just isn't worth it to try and keep up with how things change...

20th Century Boy
03-01-2006, 22:38
I like the background, but only because I have a glimpse of the full picture through reading most of the fluff from the 2nd to the current edition. And I personally don't care what GW decides to make unofficial, if there is any since 2nd edition.

What I would like would be a slow improvement of the story, perhaps a bit quicker than the Tyranid Hive fleet and Tau "initatives". For some roleplaying games there are monthly magazines which hold information on happenings in the game world, and see, there is a monthly magazine. Now if someone would care, they could try to make small ongoing changes to the fluff, communicated (but not decided) by magazine articles, new codexes and themed books, and world-/country-wide campaigns, backed up by Black Library novels for those who want to delve in on a deeper level.

Done with tact this wouldn't change any balance of power in a critical way (the galaxy is huge), and it would be nice to exchange thoughts and speculate with others...

Anyway, as far as I know this worked with the Battletech universe on a grand scale (the amalgam of game and novels), so why shouldn't it with 40k?

One can still dream can't they? :)

skyfyre
03-01-2006, 22:51
I don't think it's a lack of fluff and I don't think it's a lack of a story that is hurting the whole scene. I think it has to do with the lack of progress, world shattering events, and change that is hurting the game story. None of the fluff seems to matter any more because it doesn't change the game in the slightest. Yet another black crusade, yet another tyranid invasion, I mean come on, who cares? Does the results of the last crusade mean chaos now gets to shoot blackstone fortresses bombardments like the Imperial armies get to use lancet strikes and/or melta torpeedoes? They have two of em don't they! No. Does it mean a new hero? No. New unit? New skills, new *anything*??? Nope, just a story and that's pretty much it.

While there certainly is the enjoyment of simply reading and knowing the fluff for it's own creative and storytelling aspect, I just think it's a lot cooler to have it reflected somehow in the game. It makes it a lot more relevant for example, if your Farseer has a special piece of wargear that can only be made on the Altanseer craftworld, recently re-emerged from the warp, or if your chaos army can call in barages from a blackstone fortress, or if one of your favorite IC's gets a new upgrade, a new ability, or even just a new look as they age and grow older, and probably more powerful.

From the beginning with the slaan, through the fall of the old ones, to the rise of the necrontyr, the colapse of the eldar, the rise of orks and humans, the tyranid wars, the great crusade, the horus heresy, and the re-emergence of the C'Tan, you have an incredibly compelling and deep history for this world. Seems to me though that things are getting kind of shallow as none of the amazing and profound events of the past are really pushing the future forward to some kind of resolution for all this.

heretic
03-01-2006, 22:56
I like how it is. if you look closely, it stops right at a crucial time. Much of the fluff is forgotten, but in the RoC books it states that the Emperor is dying more and more every day, and right now it's very close to his death (and subsequent rebirth). The C'Tan and Necrons have just been awoken, and Mars is about to get a rude awakening. Hive fleet Behemoth is about to rape the galaxy, the Eldar are just "there", orks are spreading out like wildfire, and chaos is gaining a foothold.

the wh40k universe is like a filled powder keg about to explode. I'm glad that GW doesn't drastically advance the storyline. If you ever played Battletech you'd see my point. Having the clans return made things much more complicated.

LostTemplar
03-01-2006, 23:00
GW has made a few mistakes, but this isn't one of them. You see, advancing the fluff as it stands now, would cause the Imperium to be destroyed.

Their error isn't advancing it or not, but instead, doing it as they did.

All races are a major threat! Gheesh! That shouldn't be the case, ever.

I own several armies, and let me tell you, the only one that -should- be a threat, is Chaos. Why? Because they are human. Everything else, from Eldar to Tyranids, passing by Tau and Orks, should be a minor, temporary threat.

Orkzes should make an occasional appearance, and even though Armageddon was a nice campaign, it didn't really proved anything. We need enemies with a goal, a focused goal. Chaos, is the only one that has that Goal, and also, Eldar, who want to survive.

This is the point.

Tyranids should be slow, inexorable and unstoppable. But slow, and by slow, I mean, slow. It should take them thousands of years to conquer the galaxy, not months or years as it (seems to) stand now. Not even Centuries.

Necrons? They should just concern themselves with defending their world, and making sure everything is dead when they get up, by simply waiting. Or perhaps attack one or two worlds in the vicinity of their own Tombworlds.

Dark Eldar? Nothing more than a few sporadic raids on a planet or two. Its even debatable whether they should exist at all (I love Dark Eldar, by the way, but I feel their list should be more geared towards Full-out blown war, like the Eldar: Craftworld ones)

Tau? They have a spec of the Imperium’s doorstep. They preach a lovely goal, which the very Imperium’s existence and ideology proves wrong. C’mon, don’t you all think that the human race also went along the same process? Then it met something called –Chaos- and it all went bananas.

My point is that GW should focus a lot more, in developing background that is credible in everyway. How can all races be a major threat, yet, by sheer miracle, not cleanse each other out? Why must they all be so dire? Only because it makes the army cooler for its player?

Warp Zero
03-01-2006, 23:05
When I started thinking of the background of the 40k universe I felt a bit cheated because you get great stories but you never get the whole picture of the universe. Even if you try you won't be able to understand what is happening and where the story is going and even at GW central they won't know.

Each person has different tastes and expectations. That I know. For me, I like that I can't see the "whole picture" of the 40k setting. The reason being, that it is so huge in scope that there's no way to properly write about the whole picture. Plus, it leaves room for creative additions anytime the writing team wants to put something new in. I read maybe about 75% of the Black Library stuff and while it doesn't give me a complete picture of everything, it gives me a big enough sense of the setting to be satisfied. The only thing I think they're missing is more Xenos novels.




Oh! and, ok, this is a sci fi game so I accept Deamons, Super human Warriors of Doom, Aliens (even the tyranid fleets) and the sort, however I can't accept some things they introduce in the story like the bureaucracy in the Imperium ; if it really was like that there would be no Imperium it would crumble in years eaten from the inside by people with power-lust fantasies and from the outside by aliens and chaos. World by world would fall weakening the Imperium.

I can accept a giant government run by power-lusting leaders bogged down by self interest and bureaucracy....I think that's realistic....in fact, a certain country I live in right now is not too disimilar. :D

And yes, the Imperium has lots of Xenos races and Chaos factions gunning for it. But realize that these enemies aren't just fighting us only. They are all not united working with each other against the Imperium. If they were, yes...the Imperium would be destroyed.

But the Tau also have to deal with the Tyranids. Orks deal with whomever they come across: other Orks, Eldar, Chaos, Tyranids, etc, etc. Necrons are relatively low in numbers at the moment because they are just waking up and not all of their population is in fully deployed/functional. Dark Eldar just make small raids. Eldar are dying and only involve themselves when they need to steer their fate a certain way. Chaos is ever pushing here and there....probably humanity's most constant threat alongside Orks but they only truly surge to huge proportions once in a great while. Two biggest Chaos threats were (as far as we know), the 13th Crusade and the Sabbat Worlds Campaign. Other than those two....every other Chaos event are much smaller in scope in comparison.






There are other problems with GW, noticeably the fact that sometimes you get the felling they don't playtest certain rules/models they bring out, they don't check the books (fluff or rules) for mistakes (language and gaming content) .....

I agree with you on that. Something to hopefully be fixed as we enter further into 4th Edition. And it looks like they are fixing mistakes of the past. All the latest Codexes are solid. The only big flaw I see them still holding onto...or rather, repeating, is the whole Space Marine favoritism thing.



...and the Tau somehow managed to stop the Imperium from destroying them with 1/1000th of the number of soldiers.

True, but the Imperium only sent 1/1000th number of troops to face them. Had the Imperium deployed and concentrated their ENTIRE military might against the Tau, they would be whiped out. But the rub is, the Imperium can't do that. They are spread out over many small fronts and the occasional big one (like the 13th Crusade or major Hive Fleet appearance).

Cadian 21st
03-01-2006, 23:25
GW has made a few mistakes, but this isn't one of them...Their error isn't advancing it or not, but instead, doing it as they did...We need enemies with a goal, a focused goal...Tyranids should be slow, inexorable and unstoppable...Necrons? They should just concern themselves with defending their world, and making sure everything is dead when they get up, by simply waiting...Dark Eldar? Nothing more than a few sporadic raids on a planet or two. Its even debatable whether they should exist at all...Tau?They preach a lovely goal, which the very Imperium’s existence and ideology proves wrong...My point is that GW should focus a lot more, in developing background that is credible in everyway...Only because it makes the army cooler for its player?

- Ok, let's try and remake this paragraph:

- You're right, but a larger part of the problem is that GW invents all these huge, catastrophic, historical events at a heart-pounding pace, rather then the slow one.

- The Tyranid SHOULD be slow, not devouring galaxies in weeks.

- The Necrons should work just as slowly - they waited billions of years for the universe to rebuild so I'm sure they can take their time.

- The Dark Eldar shouldn't exist at all since GW made them live in the Warp. I could understand if they used the Warp excessivly, but actually living in it??? I'd perfer them to stick to sporadic raids ON THE HUMANS. They essentially sacrifice everything to save themselves, so why can't they start attacking their Warp Cousins (the Chaotes) more often?

- The Tau remind me of the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy's Empire: Krikit, at least right now they do. The Tau REALLY should be launching Holy Crusades every now and again, rather then ethnically cleanse the universe.

- GW should link all the fluff together. Right now, events and times and dates and everything seems to contradict each other and makes me feel like I'm from another planet reading about the past rather then being somewhat involved in the action, as though this is what's happening now.

- Everything that happens to WH40k seems to be geared to making each army (save the Imperial Guard) seem cooler. Everything about the other races, all the fluff, all the equipment etc, makes them to be cool things to be. Imperial Guard fluff seems to show quite the opposite, which annoys the hell out of me.


I don't think it's a lack of fluff and I don't think it's a lack of a story that is hurting the whole scene...None of the fluff seems to matter any more because it doesn't change the game in the slightest...Does the results of the last crusade mean chaos now gets to shoot blackstone fortresses bombardments like the Imperial armies get to use lancet strikes and/or melta torpeedoes?...New unit? New skills, new *anything*???...

- This is true. It'd be cool to see an impact of these "earth shattering" events, and would mean that rather updating codex after codex, they could update it from campaign after campaign and re-release the codex changes at a later date, kinda like Chapter Approved or the Wargear book.


...Anyway, as far as I know this worked with the Battletech universe on a grand scale (the amalgam of game and novels), so why shouldn't it with 40k?...

- Because unlike Battletech, as WH40k advances it seems to discount most of what happened before.

Yodhrin
03-01-2006, 23:46
I dont want the timeline to advance any more. I dont want it to advance because, frankly, I like the 40K universe as it is, and even if GW come up with some really cool new fluff, it couldn't be "the same", and even just ignoring any timeline advancement still wouldn't feel "the same".

For an example Ill have to go outside Wargaming to the MMORPG world. I played Star Wars: Galaxies for a fairly long time. I played it from Euro-Launch until the Combat Upgrade, and then on-and-off until the recent "New Game Experiance" which pretty much killed it for me forever. For the first few months, it was great. Imperials and Rebels fought over the galaxy, the Imperials were in a dominant position and the Rebels were forced to strike from the shadows, just as it should be. The Cantinas were full of dancers, spice dealers and other shady sorts, and it felt Star Warsy.

But over time it changed, not just because of the players, but because of the way SOE handled the story of the game. It changed so much that, although it was still a fun game, and although it still had plenty of Star Wars bits like blasters and lightsabers and speeders, it didn't feel Star Warsy anymore. It just felt like any MMO with a few bits of Star Wars thrown on top.

That's what Im scared would happen if GW made any significant change to the timeline/background, it just wouldnt feel like 40K anymore. It might still have some of the same bits like Space Marines and Chaos and so on, but it wouldn't be the same. Like when you watch those movies you loved as a child as you grow older and they lose the magic.

Ive said it before and Ill say it again, the way forward is backward. Set the release shedule at one Imperial and one or two Xenos codecii a year, and have the third/fourth spot set aside for a Campaign book. Each book would detail a historical conflict involving two or more races and, when appropriate, would be accompanied by the appropriate Battlezone codex to give us new rules for locations to fight in, such as cities, space hulks, underground, various planetary types etc. The Campaign release would also provide a nice slot in the shedule to release updates of old sculpts or new units for existing armies which have been without attention for long periods.

Historical campaigns provide the expanding background people want without screwing over the established state of affairs for the whole galaxy in the way a "world shattering" event-style Campaign does, they provide new and interesting background on races and locations, and they could even serve as a way for GW to trial new races and units before their inclusion in a codex.

Win-win in my book.

Balragore
04-01-2006, 01:05
Well, the fluff as of late....sucks. No better way to say it. It sucks.
Although, to be fair, the =][= war trilogy made me want to hunt down and kill Ian Watson for some of the most poorly written, generalized bullsh-t there is (and to get my money back).

As far as timeline goes, I would like to see it become more coherent.

What few remaining "Old Timers" there are at GW need to blow the whistle.

I believe the problem lies in the lack of GW higher ups that still play these days, it sure as hell seems that way to me at least. When's the last time you saw a GW staffer's "Fun" army taking on the (garuanteed to win) new army release. Hell when is the last time you saw a fun and friendly game being reported in WD? That last BT mission "Defend the Keep" in WD from a month or two ago..............well, lets just say i have VERY strong feelings as to what "Really" happened.

Custodae
04-01-2006, 01:22
GW could really cause havoc and ruin their universe the way the latter Star Trek series did...Time Travel!

Like any interesting plot twister, it's cool when used sporadically. Once it starts to dominate every plotline...

GW 'rebooting' or 'tweaking' some of their history could be done...introducing Necron, Tau, & Tyranids in some past historic battle scenes could be interesting (if only so when they do a worldwide campaign it allows those players to participate). Who really says they didn't, afterall the Inquisitions & Lords of Terra are always editing history and information anyway. It may have been considered 'wiser' for the larger population of the Imperium NOT to be told of new Xenos threats when they 'first' happened. It would definitely allow some background on the universe to have a little light shed on it.

Custodae
of the Sanctum Imperialis

heretic
04-01-2006, 03:33
the Dark Eldar don't live in the warp, they live in some other dimensional area beyond the webway

Jon_Irenicus
04-01-2006, 03:38
1st post here in Warseer. Heh, been missing it since Portent went down :(
I have been reading all of your posts, and I agree with most of them. As I´m not immersed in the discussion, I´m not able to follow the flow of the thread as I wanted...

So, I´ll just limit myself to this:
I had really high expectations about the HoT campaign, and I felt somewhat cheated at the end, for a start, because Cadia stood (that was the impression I had, anyway, with only a few rag-tag forces and a few fortresses), and they promised an advance in story line (far better the chaos one than the imperial, IMO), and what do we get?

One of the oldest and most proeminent figures in 40k died.
I mean, he was playing a pretty desperate gamble. It wouldn´t sound credible if it all ended well.
What I don´t understand is that it had everything for a great ending, and they blew it. I wasn´t expecting plain oblivion. He deserved better.
Maybe I just played too much Starcraft...
Like they had just killed him so as to say, "here´s a change in the background.".
So much for the promised "chaos will pour" and stuff like that. Also, it introduced three armies I don´t ever see played : the LatD, those Ulthwé SF (really...) and the 13th company. So as not to damage the 40k background setting. Meh. Orks born from fungus, now that´s what you should not have brought up!
I´d like to know what Ahriman got from the other inquisitor (can´t remember his name right now) who visited the Black Library, I´d like to know about the "new" marines Fabius Bile was intent on bringing forth...
Some might like it, some definitly won´t (I´m completely against Dan Abnett, for example)... But some changes would be welcome other than just killing off a race or a character.

Excuse me it this is a bad post... Like I said, I hadn´t posted in a while, and... well... it´s hard to express certain ideas. But I missed discussing these ideas :p

Oh, and hello to everyone from Portent (I only remember a few figures, like T-Tauri, I believe, and Engel... and Brim, methinks... Well, greets to everyone, anyway!)

starlight
04-01-2006, 03:41
Welcome! These days we even have a whole Forum dedicated to Welcoming the new (and wayward:p) souls.:D

skyfyre
04-01-2006, 03:54
Another thing I thought of that is kind of lame is that GW doesn't really understand the concept of a cliffhanger.

Remember in the origional Star Wars trillogy that the bad guys pretty much whiped the good guys in Empire Strikes Back? Only to have the good guys make a desparate last stand and assault in Return of the Jedi? It seems to me like every black crusade and every huge world shattering event *always* ends with the Imperium winning. Bad guys maybe take some trophies back or accomplish some mysterious, unfathomable goal but they never just come in and outright smack the forces of not evil down (Imperium isn't exactly good, neither are the eldar or tau for that matter, thus not good vs. pure evil :P).

They need to have at least one campaign or major chaos/necron/dark eldar offensive end in a crushing victory for the bad guys and leave it at "to be continued" for once. It's gotta be big though. Like Abadon leading hordes of chaos marines, fighting against the greatest space marine heroes at the very foot of the golden throne. I want a story with Eldrad Ulthuran alone and locked in mortal combat with hordes of laughing dark eldar reavers, worlds near the heart of humanity *permanently* raised and reduced to ash, entire chapters wiped out to the very last man, the combined might of mars LOSING to near infinite hordes of necron warriors! Make up a chapter or heck, make 10 chapters, call em the Emperors Crimson Shirts or Ordo Ablative Wounds or something and ensure they end up killed to the last ship and the very last man. Even the Apothecaries and the tailor that patches the holes in the battle banners!

Having the invaders come in, force the Imperium to sacrifice billions and billions of people over and over, and eventually triumph in an endless loop where every conclusion is a victorious humanity or a stalemate sure isn't very exciting. It's also hard to respect the bad guys when the most they have managed to do lately is swipe 2 real old eldar weapons. Some people might site the loss of life, but since the Imperium apparently loses 12 quadrillion citizens every other week to invasions, orks, chaos incursion, rebellions, inquisitors frying entire planets, and the common cold then what's the difference?

The bad guys really need to at least *appear* to win a few times to keep things interesting and keep them respectable.

IncubiLord
04-01-2006, 04:55
Well, here's my long-winded slant on the whole thing.

First, GW is screwing up. They need to be a little more creative and stop contradicting themselves, but there are a few things that they have done right. The fluff needs to be fairly vague on a lot of points to allow players to create their own armies and backstories.

Setting up defined empires would really just keep certain races from fighting each other in a fluffy game, unless everybody has an empire that’s part of a big pie chart. (see the map of the inner sphere in the original Mechwarrior), and I don’t think any of us want to see the universe drawn out as a big pie chart.

I do think that the entire “every race is about to kill us all” thing is overdone, and it needs toned down.

So, here’s my suggestion (for GW to ignore).

Firstly, announce that the previous background is all =][= records. This means chunks can be true, but exaggeration and propaganda is rampant. Every race is about to kill us because it keeps =][= citizens from interacting with aliens and Chaos (who really are trying to kill us).

Second, create a bio-plague that wipes out the current Hive Fleet. Introduce the next one as a slower moving thing that has to spend time devouring a world, assimilating the local DNA, etc. Have this fleet send out quick-moving scouting forces that attack to assess potential food, allowing the Tyranids to show up anywhere without having a battle for the world every time.

Third, point out that the Ork Empire is not growing much. They fight amongst themselves most of the time, but some Waaaghs go Space Hulking and trying to find a new world to conquer. Again, this race isn’t a huge threat, but is an ever-present enemy.

Fourth, have the Dark Eldar take a few worlds. They all live in one over-crowded city in the Webway? Come on. Even if Slaanesh sucks at their souls twice as hard in reality, they could farm people and eat a lot more. Let them realize just how helpless most the Tau are and take a couple of worlds in the middle of that little Empire.

Fifth, give the Eldar a reason to be more active. I don’t care what it is, but they need something more. Maybe the god they’re all hoping will save them is finally up to lesser deity status and needs them to fulfill its god-like plans.

Sixth, release comprehensive fluff books for each army. Not “here’s every Space Marine Chapter,” but more “Here’s all the stories we put out about the Space Marines.”

This post has already gotten too long, and I’m losing momentum, so I’ll stop here. :angel:

loco_smoko
04-01-2006, 06:22
Looking back across many of these posts I have to agree with Yodhrin.
The best plan is to leave the time line as is.
But wait you say "if it stays as is then I'll have no new gear or models come out for my army..":cries:
Now that is where the beauty of having historical campaigns comes in.:D
Over the past 10,000 years there have been a number of armies, units, wargear and all kinds of other cool stuff that has come and gone.
These can all be used for historical refights that are both indepth, fluffy and more importantly fun.
A good example of this was a campaign on cadia in a recent WD that introduced Imperial gurd high command and the super-dooper teleporting thousand sons.:chrome:
Plus it will be a case of not advancing the storyline but can give a very definate answer to what happens next.
i.e
space marines vs renegade guardsmen fight on planet Y.
Campaign book comes out and detials what armies fought where and with what. This could be as simple as giving you a series of locations that would be fought over and how best to do this in the way of terrain types and some historical data.Or complicated like new lists and wargear and really in depth.
And could end with a 3 possble endings that depend on how YOUR particular campaign finished up. And the wider effects on the imperium. This sort of thing would make for more interesting non contradictory background material.
Heck these could all be done in a series of WD articles and to a degree they are but more often and better supported.
Yikes longer than I would have expected to write:eek: , but just my 2 cents.

Cheers

Jerry

P.S
[begin rant]lost and the damned really should be one of the main "bad guy" armies and needs to better supported as chaos IS NOT always chaos space marines in large numbers.[end rant]

Cadian 21st
04-01-2006, 06:25
@ Incubi Lord: Here here!

FieronThor
04-01-2006, 07:49
I would prefer if they would allow the fluff bible to exist. It is pretty handy having a good repository of background info in one place. The one on the GW website ain't bad, but like usual is severely lacking in depth.

Eulenspiegel
04-01-2006, 09:11
Firstly, announce that the previous background is all =][= records. This means chunks can be true, but exaggeration and propaganda is rampant. Every race is about to kill us because it keeps =][= citizens from interacting with aliens and Chaos (who really are trying to kill us).
Omg, friggen stroke of genius :eek:
In my eyes that´s really an elegant solution to put things into perspective.

I really can´t see why Games Würgshop, a producer of a game that relies so heavily on its background like WH40K, can´t employ a single person to watch over their stuff to keep a coherent story. Like an editor or fact-reader.
Heck, most of you out there would do it in their freetime without payment ;)

AgentZero
04-01-2006, 09:12
When I was coming home today I started thinking about most of the threads I visited today and noticed there was a tendency to see the same subjects approached from diferent aspects.
Let's start with a bit of background on me to explain where I'm getting at. I run a small gaming club and have played, like many here, a large number of games from RPGs to CCGs and had contact with many other games.
I noticed that GW did/is still doing something fundamentally wrong especially in this kind of game, they simply forget the background story.
"What!!" I hear some of you screaming.
Yes, there is a lot of fluff. Yes, there are a lot of books that tell stories, however it's impossible for a player to tell what is happening. This might sound confusing, so I'll use examples.
A RPG called Vampire was created 10 years ago and was based in the drawing near of the end of the world. Last year the company edited a book describing the end of the world and giving options for the players&GM to choose which ending they prefered. The players were sad with the end of the story, yet it was a huge success because it was what people had been waiting for since the beginning of the game.
When I started thinking of the background of the 40k universe I felt a bit cheated because you get great stories but you never get the whole picture of the universe. Even if you try you won't be able to understand what is happening and where the story is going and even at GW central they won't know.
As someone wrote today they discard old fluff for comercial interess and this is IMHO very bad.
I think they should take some time and get the story together with a past/present/future (even if only they know).
Another thing they should do is start removing some of the Doomsday devices and Armaggedon prophecies they created making the universe a gigantic booby trap ready to explode.
Oh! and, ok, this is a sci fi game so I accept Deamons, Super human Warriors of Doom, Aliens (even the tyranid fleets) and the sort, however I can't accept some things they introduce in the story like the bureaucracy in the Imperium ; if it really was like that there would be no Imperium it would crumble in years eaten from the inside by people with power-lust fantasies and from the outside by aliens and chaos. World by world would fall weakening the Imperium.
There are other problems with GW, noticeably the fact that sometimes you get the felling they don't playtest certain rules/models they bring out, they don't check the books (fluff or rules) for mistakes (language and gaming content) and they forget that the "specialist" games are great to introduce new players to the universe (example, I started a BB league from which I introduced 5 players in 40k).I leave you alone now.
For those that read this post till the end thanks :)

Well, the 13th Black Crusade was a rip off. So was Armageddon's conflict.
They had no affect on the game.
Legend of the 5 Rings had storylines that affected the product.
White Wolf KILLED their main product lines,Vampire and Werewolf!

For GW to "move forward" they need to start incorporating the story into the game.

The next few steps lead the Imperium from a galactic power to an intergalactic/universal power.
The birth of the Star Child signals the end of the current storyline and sets the stage for a new humanity to conquer their home galaxy and then to spread to new ones.

Just think of the horrors an entire galaxy infested with Tyranids can offer.
A galaxy with C'Tan in power.
New aliens , new challenges , new perils that would face the Imperium.

Another problem with GW's product is a small amount of people doing the majority of the work. That's why things come out broken or unbalanced.
Codex books take forever because of that.

The Imperium works great with their internal structure, it's what keeps the Empire of Man stagnated. If they had any forward thinking institutions Chaos and all the Xenos would have ZERO chance of success. The Tau would be smothered. The C'Tan destroyed. Nothing would be able to stop an organized and focused humanity. Only when the Star Child is born can man have one vision, one mind.

Paradox
04-01-2006, 09:36
To be honest I have only skimmed the posts in this thread but figure I'll toss in my two cents.

I personally believe that 40K fluff has been written on a scale that is far too great and as a result the quality suffers immensely. I find it hard to relate to millions upon millions of men giving their lives for some ill- defined goal. It just doesn't make sense to me. It's also got to be a task and a half for anyone to keep track of all the information and not step on each others toes as they write about it from their own point of view.

I completely agree 40K needs a more personal, coherent story line... each addition could be like a new era perfectly explaining why there has been changes to rules, weapons etc.

GW's mistake? Biting off so much more than they can chew.

For my Guard army I've tried to bring it down to a much more personal level. What makes them fight? Surely if there is no hope wouldn't you just lay down arms and succumb? Wouldn't you need something to drive you on and over the obstacles? In my opinion you definately would, hence my army motto 'Through the mud, through the blood to the green fields beyond'. They are fighting to get home (the fluff explains it in further detail).

hairyman
04-01-2006, 09:58
A couple of people posting above have suggested compiling background and the like into a detailed and official document... maybe even one per race. I'd certainly be in favour of seeing this.

Pokpoko
04-01-2006, 10:37
i agree that the campaigns and other "fluff-changing" stuff that GW does is...halfhearted at least,but al those that compare (terrible,but thats OT) RPG from White Wolf or any other RPG games to the 40k miss one point-all it takes for the rpg company to change fluff is to write it down, and either sell it as a book,or post it on their website-while in 40k the fluff is simply to make a nice background to the miniatures-they can write that cadia had fallen,and lemon russ suddenly apeared back with his 13 wolfs, but then they have two ways
a)either end with this,and then it's just another meaningless line in the codex
b)actually cancel cadian armies, and release rules for Russ,and the players would scream bloody murder for canceling THEIR miniatures from the game.
or c) release the new rules,indeed baning the cadians, but say that they can be usable as a "historical" army-but what was the point of fluff change then anyway?

RampagingRavener
04-01-2006, 10:38
I don't have a problem with the current plot as it is. If most of the races were reduced in "threat" to the Imperium, some people may not wish to play them-a lot of newcomers will see 'The Big Shiney Space Marines', or 'The Biggest threat to the Galaxy' or 'The Funny Alien Pirates Who Don't Do Much'. Go figure.

All that needs to be done is a quick re-structuring of the current Fluff, and a detailed Inventory book of the older fluff, even if they re-did it in the current form, like leaving out such things as Squats and Malal that existed a long time ago. Just as long as they had a detailed timeline of all the events and wars that had taken place in the History of the Galaxy, from the war between the Old Ones and the Necrons up to the current time.

Just out of intrest, but to the people who are saying that the EoT campaign hasn't anything-perhaps stories will be advanced in the relevent codexes? For example, I would expect to see a peice about the after-events of the War in the Codex Eldar re-release, especially about what happens to Ulthwe, with Eldrad being killed (thats another thing-if the fluff is to be updated in later dexes, Eldrads death might have been something put in to begin the changes and so that something happens immediatly) and the Eldar fighting to re-take some of the worlds lost in the Eye. Similarly, the new Chaos Codex may have things about Chaos attacking to push the last Imperials off Cadia and the overall effects of several warbands getting out pas the Imperial Blockades.

Shadowheart
04-01-2006, 10:55
I got into the background during second edition, when a Codex book told you everything you had to know about a given army, when the background offered you a comprehensive description of the setting. GW lost me during the course of third edition, when a Codex book told you how much points your troops were, and when the background offered you a couple of pieces from an incomplete puzzle. That they even implied that there was a timeline that was being advanced only served to make things even more confusing and unsatisfactory.

They went from arguably the best 40K background source ever, Gav Thorpe's Codex: Sisters of Battle, to arguably the worst, Codex: Dark Eldar. And although things have been getting better compared to early third edition, they're still worse than they were in second.

40K should never be approached like a story. There should be no action driving a plot, there should just be description. So that people have a setting they can set their own stories in, be it in the form of single games, campaigns, army background, fan fiction, whatever. I find it decidedly unappealing to do any work telling such a story if GW can at any time advance the background in such a way that my story becomes obsolete.

There's no need to move 40K forward, backward or sideways. All you have to do to keep it fresh is keep adding to the description of the setting, explore new areas, introduce new elements.

And kindly do it in the main army books as much as possible. If you want to know about Eldar, you should be able to read Codex: Eldar and have your basics well and truly covered. Essential information shouldn't be scattered about multiple supplements, old White Dwarf issues, novels, comics and websites.

Lord Balor
04-01-2006, 11:01
GW's great mistake? They failed basic math. They Forgot to move the decimal place over to the right a few times.

100 Marines cannot take a planet. 100 Marines cannot take a continent. 100 Marines would be hard pressed to take a capital city. But they perform surgical strikes, attacking supply bases and enemy HQ's you say? Well if they were doing that, then the only action they would ever see was three overweight undertrained sleeping guards who are woefully unprepared for 100 clanking killing machines. Blowing one Power plant is not going to cripple a planet, blowing a mighty ten might even affect a state or two but zoom out on a planetary scale and you've achieved nothing. Assassinating enemy HQ's? Since when was there only a single man in charge of government? Since when were not over a hundred men waiting for him to drop in the first place to take his place? A stray Rocket can end a marine and when you have a population in the billions, i think theres far more than 100 potentially lethal threats facing the Emperor's finest.

Likewise, 100,000 Guardsmen cannot take a planet. 100,000 Guardsmen cannot take a continent. 100,000 Guardsmen do not need to be raised by half a dozen worlds and thier movement be seen as stripping entire systems. We have one and one alone comparrison. Earth. I do believe there are several hundred million soldiers/reserves/support personal in total here and we are not even in a constant state of full scale war under the most bloodthirsty and ruthless organisation. A planet can damn well defend itself against all but the most dire threat, even if it were 1/10 of Earth's military scale. The Eastern Fringe cannot be striped of resources to support the other side of the galaxy, it just doesn't make sense. The Eastern Fringe itself, even with just half a dozen Earth like planets would equate to how many million lonely guardsmen ready to head out and purge the xenos? GW's figures are laughable and so far beyond reality that you need to suspend your belief that your current suspension of belief has been spread over too many slices of bread already. The Imperial Guard, drawn from a million worlds with 10,000 years of tried warfare, with total belief in a God under a regime that glorifies the power and devine right of man and that the xenos should be purged suddenly becomes the meat punching bag for the universe. How can every general be incompertent? How can every soldier be cowardly? How can every weapon and vehicle, purpose designed for its effeciency be outclassed, out matched and out witted with every strike? How can the newly formed Tau have greater military experience and expertese, flexibility, options and tactics when they've hardly fdaced any true threat? How can planets survive themselves with <1,000,000 soldiers to keep the peace at all times?

Chaos, the insiderous enemy, the darkness, the jungian shadow, the be all and end all takes 10,000 years to even manage to get a tiny foothold in Imperial Space? The Tyranids are munching through more of the galaxy in 256 years than chaos has for eternity. The Necrons are about to shut them off completly and the Tau are magically out of Chaos' grasp. That leaves them battering against the hardest outpost of humanity for howmany years? Another point is that Traitors are to Loyalists as LatD is to Guard, so why isn't Latd fully thought out? Why is the only force made of Chaos marines who are more rare, more splintered, more independent than loyal marines and the rariest of Chaos' soldiers have become the standard? There should be Codex: Chaos with the focus on hordes of Mutants, traitors, Daemons, Pyskers and madmen with Chaos Marines being removed from the foreground although still active. The Standard Chaos force should be a fully thought out, tried and tested buffed up version of LatD and be to the Imperial Guard what Chaos marines are to loyalists.

Besides those points, The Tyranids should be slower, the Necrons more patient and the Tau either fighting a war for their very lives or far larger. The Eldar and Dark Eldar have had their time and so shouldn't play any large role other than directing the major factions from behind the scenes.

/rant

Jon_Irenicus
04-01-2006, 15:43
I have to agree with RampagingRavenor and Lord Balor.
I do hope that the advances in the story are shown in some codexi. I just regret that they didn´t start with the Space Marine one. But I´ll keep my fingers crossed...

The Chaos Space Marines look like they´re without number. Yet with each chaos incursion they take a hell of a beating. Still they keep their numbers. Fabius Bile keeps making marines? Where do they get the power armour? The terminator armour? How do they produce it in such a great scale?
And chaos got the defiler? Cool. I don´t understand why the hell Mars doesn´t come up with something. All that knowledge and research and nothing?
The Imperium conquered so many planets, faces so much stuff, and it doesn´t get any technological advances - I mean, even the Tau have, and they´ve only been in for a few years.
Another point I need to make is about the Eldar. We see craftworld eldar dying by the droves, the guardians squandered as they are being used for "platform ablative shield". Loads of them dying? Does it even feel right, according to the background of the race?

Well, more to come as my memories ressurge thanks to the discussion.

heretic
04-01-2006, 15:46
in the Space Wolf novels the chaos marine (I can't remember the name) is killed over and over again, because Chaos basically keeps reincarnating him

f2k
04-01-2006, 17:07
Because unlike Battletech, as WH40k advances it seems to discount most of what happened before.

And that’s quite a problem, isn’t it…?

The fluff used to vague and mysterious. Plenty of room for your own crazy ideas.
Then the fluff became more concrete. Holes were filled, and the history made more complete.
And now we have the disgrace that is the Horus Heresy books and their complete rewrite of the know history.

Chambers and Priestly might not have made the best rules, but they had a clear vision of “their” universe and where they wanted it to go. Today, it seems that GW has completely lost their focus and are floundering around, desperately looking for a way out of the quagmire.

The “great campaigns” of the last 10 years or so? Ha! What a shame – what a lost opportunity…
Seriously, what good have they done? We were promised earth shattering events – what did we get? A few characters got killed in the most hilarious ways, that’s it. What’s happening to 40K now that Cadia is on the brink of destruction? What happens to Fantasy now that the Empire is reeling from the onslaught of Chaos? Well, your guess is as good as mine…



GW's great mistake? They failed basic math. They Forgot to move the decimal place over to the right a few times.

Amen!

The numbers sounds staggering. But when you start thinking about the number of soldiers in the field during WW2, then they seem strangely underwhelming…


GW really needs to do something about this. I’m not saying that they should go the way of White Wolf (even though the idea about the birth of the Star Child sounds very interesting), but something clearly needs to be done…

heretic
04-01-2006, 17:11
Priestly's vision of RT is far, far different and it was already changed before he left.

I think what would help would be to concentrate on smaller things. Eye of Terror was a good book in that aspect

Balragore
04-01-2006, 17:31
Chaos, the insiderous enemy, the darkness, the jungian shadow, the be all and end all takes 10,000 years to even manage to get a tiny foothold in Imperial Space? The Tyranids are munching through more of the galaxy in 256 years than chaos has for eternity. The Necrons are about to shut them off completly and the Tau are magically out of Chaos' grasp. That leaves them battering against the hardest outpost of humanity for howmany years? Another point is that Traitors are to Loyalists as LatD is to Guard, so why isn't Latd fully thought out? Why is the only force made of Chaos marines who are more rare, more splintered, more independent than loyal marines and the rariest of Chaos' soldiers have become the standard? There should be Codex: Chaos with the focus on hordes of Mutants, traitors, Daemons, Pyskers and madmen with Chaos Marines being removed from the foreground although still active. The Standard Chaos force should be a fully thought out, tried and tested buffed up version of LatD and be to the Imperial Guard what Chaos marines are to loyalists.

LatD need their own book, leave my CSMs alone :evilgrin:


Back on topic, Their greatest mistake was not hiring some of us.
They need more people that are players and love the game to come in and breathe fresh air into the place.

IncubiLord
04-01-2006, 17:44
LatD need their own book, leave my CSMs alone
I agree.
There needs to be a Codex: Lost Souls (or some such) that basically turns the Daemonhunters Adversary rules into a full-blown supplement. Chaos Eldar, Orks, IG, Kroot, and Tau should all be present in the 40K universe.

Ozendorph
04-01-2006, 19:17
The GW storywriters don't seem to have any sense of scale. They typically boil every planet down to a single capital city (or some such) which promptly gets jail-pounded by a company of 100 marines.

Now I understand that many planets are supposed to represent small colonies, and that it's possible there is only one city of note...but at times you begin to suspect the writers have never seen an actual, populated planet (you know, like Earth). Planets are big. So big, in fact, that it's possible that multiple cultures or even species (orks, exodites, and humans, for example) could conceivably live on the same planet for many years without bumping into one another.

The chapter sizes aren't that bad, if they would mention the gobbs of combat and non-combat personnel that would be required to support the 1,000 marines. At least in my mind, actual marines are not operating the sensor arrays, piloting the ships, manning the monastary defense batteries, or spit-polishing the land raiders. Marines are not constructing field fortifications or putting in supply orders. I imagine the actual fighting marines would make up only a fraction of the total chapter. It's unfortunate that this is largely overlooked both in the fluff and on the game table.

heretic
04-01-2006, 20:57
LatD need their own book, leave my CSMs alone :evilgrin:


Back on topic, Their greatest mistake was not hiring some of us.
They need more people that are players and love the game to come in and breathe fresh air into the place.
when I interviewed at GW HQ a few years ago, almost everyone in there was very cool... it was relaxed and just an overall great place to work. I wish I could have taken the job, but $7/hour when I had to commute from south of D.C. to Baltimore was just too much.

Balragore
04-01-2006, 23:22
when I interviewed at GW HQ a few years ago, almost everyone in there was very cool... it was relaxed and just an overall great place to work. I wish I could have taken the job, but $7/hour when I had to commute from south of D.C. to Baltimore was just too much.

I wish that would show more-so in their decisions as of late :(

But it's all opinion as well so....

That stinks you couldn't take the job, really would have been :cool:

nathonicus
05-01-2006, 00:19
What if the bad guys won?

Now, I'm an IG player myself, and I find the current space-fascist fluff pretty boring, especially since all we do is defend, defend, defend. I have to admit that I am pretty bored with the background, because it seems like it is set up to try and maintain infinite crisis without actually changing anything, and it is so grimm that there is little to identify with. I would like to see the imperium fall or be splintered into thousands of independent sectors. That way some of the different human worlds could develop different cultures and it would even give a plausible reason for guard to fight guard or SM as the Old Guard tries to maintain their grip on the newly independant worlds.

Personally, I allways have to find a way to identify with my armies, and it's hard to identify with the guard because even though they're "good guys" they really are just space-nazis, so I usually make up my own background story.

IncubiLord
05-01-2006, 00:49
They could just have some Inquisitors get chunks of the Imperium to rebel. Have areas where a guy like Lichenstein (probably spelled wrong) convinced the locals that the Imperium is evil from what they do. Other areas could house traitorous =][=s that were excommunicated and have a death sentence over their heads. They could still bully the local population into doing their bidding.
As the Space Marines are really allowed to pick their battles, they could fight in favor of whatever faction their chapter thinks is right.
Oh, and let's have one of the rogue =][=s send a Callidus to kill the Emperor.

Slappy
05-01-2006, 01:18
There's too many problems with the fluff to ever fix. For one, they made the universe so large that nothing that happens in it ever matters. At least in games like Warmachine or Warzone, the battles are limited to a few countries, cities, or planets. You always know exactly where the battle is taking place and what effects it could have on the game/fluff. There are also prominent characters who actually have...*gasp*...personalities and interact with the storyline.

GW's fluff for 40k is SO predictable! I don't even need to read the new Black Templars codex because I already know what it's gonna say. "The Black Templars, fear throughout the galaxy, devout in their worhship of the Emperor blah blah!!!". Even the new Wood Elf army book was pretty much cut and pasted fluff from every other Fantasy game/movie/book ever made. It really is pitiful. I mean, it's PAINFUL when I am looking through their books and I ask "Why would someone think this is good writing? or original?"

GW has **** poor fluff and now that I am grown up I can see it for what it is. When I was a kid and then a teenager I thought the fluff was cool but now as an adult I can finally see how laughably bad it is. Other games have some cheesy/lame fluff but GW takes the cake.

heretic
05-01-2006, 01:36
I'm just the opposite, "grown up" so-to-speak, and consider it very interesting. You have to look beyond shell of space marine crap and there's a wealth of depth from the Illuminati & Star Child to the hidden motivations of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Howling_Screamer
05-01-2006, 01:42
Well are Space Marines children?

Follow
05-01-2006, 01:50
Awesome thread, I agree with the original poster though I have not and probably will not read the rest of the thread.

Thanks for putting this one out! :)




Follow :)

Gavmo
05-01-2006, 02:25
Ouch. My head hurts. I just read the whole thread.

I love the idea of a fluff book for each race. That has to be one of the best ideas ever. I bought all the IA books because I found that there was pretty much no fluff out there. Its sad that they had to create entirely seperate books to give people the backstories when the old Codex' had the histories in them.

Go back to the old ways Games Workshop!

For them to advance the timeline, I feel would be a good thing. Why? By advancing the timeline by just one year, they will move into the 42nd millenium.
(See the Black Crusades page of the rulebook. The date says 999.M41)
By saying that they're now into the 42nd mil, they can then say that all of the previous material are historical documents and Inquisition records. (Just like Incubilord said.) Then they can start making some real fluff with some continuaty.

And they should start eluding to the Tau fighting some other enemy on their eastern front. That way they have the option to create another race one day. Like they have been doing with the Dark Elves.

Icarus
05-01-2006, 06:50
Well the Tau are supposed to be in imminent danger of a Hivefleet or two, but this seems to have been forgotten. Maybe new codex will elaborate.

In fact, all the new 4th ed codexes seem to bolstering the fluff, even if they're trampling over some of the old stuff in the process. But everything since the 4th ed rulebook has very much been set in the 'now' of 999.M41, in the midst of the Black Crusade, and theres no reason why this won't continue. Now if they continue in this vein, when all codexes have been updated (which admittedly will be a few years) then I'd imagine the fluff will be noticeably more coherent. From there on, who knows?

And fluff books for each race would be amazing! They're bringing out the occasional Inquisition book, so why not?

gue'fio'la fio shas
05-01-2006, 09:01
hmmm a universal fluff book, that is much needed.

to represent the vast hoards of chaos better than they do now all they have to do is release chaos doctrines for guard armies to choose from in chapter approved.

I believe that the empire in WH fantasy is actually having a civil war but that could of been hear say.

As for advancing the storyline, they don't really need to do that, just make the past in a more coherent timeline like some people in this thread are saying

notdakuningist
05-01-2006, 09:31
I agree with slappy there, not as extreme but at the same time the fluff for 40k is kind of ridiculous. I just try to use it as a setting for games that way I don't have to follow the fluff to litterally.

Stu
05-01-2006, 10:33
GW's fluff for 40k is SO predictable! I don't even need to read the new Black Templars codex because I already know what it's gonna say. "The Black Templars, fear throughout the galaxy, devout in their worhship of the Emperor blah blah!!!". Even the new Wood Elf army book was pretty much cut and pasted fluff from every other Fantasy game/movie/book ever made. It really is pitiful. I mean, it's PAINFUL when I am looking through their books and I ask "Why would someone think this is good writing? or original?"


Just to add to this if you read codex BT and codex SM you'll notice that they didn't even change the first 2 texts....
Somewhere in GW central GD:
"hum, we need some texts to introduce the BTs in the new codex."
"no we don't we'll just use those presented in the codex SM."
"hey but isn't that codex less then (?) months old?"
"So what?If I don't read the fluff neither will the players."

Though luck, I read it and most other players do.

Another thing I spoke about in the original post that hasn't yet been develloped is doomsday devices and armaggedon situations GW creates and never uses, example the pylons in Cadia and the awakening of the necrontyr.
Somewhere deep under a dead planet
Machine 1 " Lord we are awakened and ready to close the gate to the warp that didn't allow us to sleep well 10000 years ago"
Lord "I'm awaken!What shall I do now???"
15 min later
Lord "I know! I'll go back to sleep."
Machine 1 "But Lord what about the prophecies??You're plans???"
Lord *snores and turns to the other side"
A friend of mine that plays with necrons was very, very unhappy with this devellopement in the story.
If they want chaos to stay in the EoT then don't create something to close the door...

yphead
05-01-2006, 13:27
To be quite honest i think GW has its back up against the wall, if you follow the entire story line, how on earth are the races going to survive against the tyranids? The entire 40k univers is outnumbered several 100 to 1 and we have not yet begun to see the main creatures. If the Biovor is the tyranid reply to the warhound titain, what will they come up with to go against the Warlord titain?

Kyuss
05-01-2006, 14:19
GW has stated many times since the 13th Crusade that it doesn't want to do such epic campaigns anymore, it simply raises expectations far too high.

I think it doesn't take a genius to realise that GW seems to have an awful lot of middle management for what is essentially a small, even if it is semi-international, company. If it allocated it resources more to its creative divisions (ie its actual bread and butter), then perhaps it could get more coherent fluff.

In short:
People want a fluffy, flexible world for when their playing with mates, but on the other hand they need a strongly ruled/armylisted world when they play tournaments. Its a difficult balancing act. It also needs way more money then GW is prepared to give it at the moment.



Kyuss