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Sergeant Uriel Ventris
10-07-2009, 00:24
I was just rereading through my copy of the first Gotrek and Felix omnibus and one of the passages sparked an idea in my head. They were talking about daemons, how they can only manifest for a short period of time outside of the Chaos Wastes, and even in the Wastes they are only "common" near the pole(s).

Now I understand Games Workshop's reasoning for making daemons their own army. At least, I think I do. Money. This thread is not about why they did it. I also am not an opponent of the army list itself. I don't believe they are totally unbalanced, no fun to play against, or any of that. I love the new models they made and I'd happily play against anyone sporting a daemon army.

My biggest problem is that an all-daemon army makes exactly zero sense. The daemons themselves don't build towns, cultivate/steal food, need to sleep or desire to get plunder. As far as background is concerned, they can only manifest south of the Wastes for a short period of time, and usually this happens when mortals summon them. There are exceptions, like the Great War against Chaos and the daemon army from the Storm of Chaos, but these are exceptions and not the rule.

I'm a role-player at heart and love campaigns and story-driven games. I guess what I'm saying is that out of all of the armies and races of the Warhammer world, daemons just seem to be completely out of place. Just wanted to share my ramblings and see if anyone else agreed, or hear those that disagreed.

So are all daemon armies out of place in Warhammer Fantasy or a healthy and wonderful addition to our game?

Roark
10-07-2009, 07:13
It doesn't all "ring false" to me, but then I haven't been following the fluff for edition after edition of the game, nor do I read many WFB novels (only Dan Abnett's stuff).

I actually dig the fluff in the Daemons book. Additionally, I like the models, and I like the challenge of fighting them. So, no complaints from me. I can see why people might find playing against abusive Daemon lists tiresome, but I don't play with jerks, so it doesn't affect me.

Fenrir
10-07-2009, 07:53
Healthy and wonderful addition to the game, in my opinion.

I wonder how long until this degenerates into a standard daemon moan?

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
10-07-2009, 11:03
I promise I will lock this thread if it starts to go that way. I don't want to hear anything about how broken they are etc. Perhaps a mod can slide this down into background...

EvC
10-07-2009, 11:12
Well presumably the Daemon armies seen have just been summoned and will only appear for a short time. Also as the realm of Chaos expands they gain more longevity, etc...

NakedBarbarian
10-07-2009, 11:31
I like the daemon fluff and the army in general. They get two thumbs up from me

Fenrir
10-07-2009, 12:25
The only problem I have with the army book, is that Daemon Princes were made pretty redundant - thats not to say they are all out bad. Paying 35 points for mark of chaos that doesn't actually do anything is a bit silly.

Still, people do underestimate them on the table - 16" charge, ASF and a decent amount of attacks is always nice.

When costed next to a greater daemon though, things look rather shoddy.

Ixquic
10-07-2009, 12:31
The idea of entirely demon armies is cool, the problem is in the implementation. It should have been more like the 40k book where randomness (a.k.a chaos) is a huge part of how things work. Instead in Fantasy they are the most reliable army in the game and actually the antithesis of chaos.

Lazarus15
10-07-2009, 13:04
I think the fluff is great, and perhaps the players army is supposed to represent one of many battles in either the third great war against chaos or the end war itself. I also agree with one of the above posts in that the army manifests itself long enough for battle then when it is over, and no other offerings to the "gods" are given, then they are taken away.

ChaosCajun
11-07-2009, 03:05
There could be any sort of back story to why the daemons end up fighting a particular foe. Perhaps the other army entered the wastes looking for treasure or a rumored magic item. Perhaps the ebb and flow of chaos has allowed the army to reach into the other army's territory. Perhaps a foolish wizard attempted to open a gate to summon a daemon and died with the gate open until the whole army slipped through. Perhaps a mighty wizard, or group of them, diverted an invading army by magically banishing them and they ended up in the realm of chaos itself and have to battle their way to the wastes and back home again. Perhaps the army was aboard ships and were washed ashore in the wastes after a terrible storm.

Generally, I don't try to make sense of GW fluff as it rarely matches what the troops actually do. I just try to enjoy painting, converting, and playing the game.

grumbaki
11-07-2009, 03:13
I remember seeing an old 40k strip about an Inquistor named Defay. In it, daemons attack a city because there is an untrained psyker who accidently summoned them. I can see this happening in fantasy.

* A hedge wizard (a wizard not trained by the colleges of magic) bites off more than he can chew and accidently opens a portal into the realm of chaos.
* A coven of chaos cultists did it. Probably got eaten in the process.
* A piece of Morrsleib breaks off and lands in the area. All the warpstone temporarily allows a horde of daemons to walk the mortal world.
* The daemons are a specially summoned force summoned by a chaos army to attack an important part of the enemy army.
* They are goblins wearings costumes.

So I can see a few reasons at least on why there could be daemon armies.

Dag
11-07-2009, 08:17
but that doesnt happen often. compared to the doc army spottings.

Briohmar
11-07-2009, 08:24
Going further with your Gotrek and Felix theory, the path's of the old ones do open, and they travel through the realm of the Daemons, So maybe Teclis wasn't as successful as he thought he'd be in closing all the gates

Plus Storm af Chaos brought a huge number of Chaos Sorcerers and Shamans south, so they could open the portals as well.

danny7865
11-07-2009, 09:20
fluff wise an elven way stone cant contain a surge of magic and the leylines spills over.Demons sense an opportunity ....

Gaargod
11-07-2009, 13:03
To be honest, exactly how often do you see Tomb Kings fighting outside lizardmen in lustria? How often do 2 steam tanks take to battle in a border skirmish against another Empire army with another 2 steam tanks? How often does Karl Franz ride on his fricking dragon?

Frankly, you have to suspend disbelief with armies fighting each other. If you want some fluff for daemons, its easier enough - as people have already said, portals into the realm of chaos are remarkably common. I believe some of the fluff also revolves around the idea that, as the world gets closer to annihilation and the 'storms' of chaos increase in frequency, the world gets more saturated with chaotic power.

Although to be honest, i'm fond of the whole 'Daemons are summoned by invisible pink unicorns'. As an explanation goes, its about as easy as it gets.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
11-07-2009, 13:16
I'm mostly talking about campaigning, where you have a set map and you do battles over time and the armies spend time waiting, recovering, etc. Unless you specifically are going into the Chaos Wastes, and for God's sake who would want to do that, there is really no reason for an army of daemons to manifest and stay there for months and months.

In one off games it can make sense, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Lijacote
11-07-2009, 14:28
Storms of Chaos?

"Oh look that bell you brought back for our church was actually a Chaos artifact made of warpstone oh wait you did it on purpose die you bastard"

"END-TIMES!"

"Damn them high elves, being lazy with the vortex again!"

There's really no reason for a vampire count to attack with 30 zombies either, but they do that sometimes. Then again, my daemon army is going to be a bunch of counts-as horrors cultists with only a few daemons.

AFnord
11-07-2009, 16:15
It might well be so that the daemons are drawn into this reality by all the bloodshead around them. All the other armies are fighting in the region and thus the daemons are able to sustain themselves (works with the older chaos fluff at least. I don't know how it is these days).

Condottiere
11-07-2009, 16:31
You probably do need someone or something to punch a hole through reality. Near the borders, it could be as little as miscast spell, near the Equator, it requires an act of will by a strong and powerful indicidual or group.

Briohmar
12-07-2009, 05:47
In the campaign it sould be as simple as a wandering Chaos Sorcerer who calls to them everytime he sees an opportunity. and his accolytes stay in territories they've conquered to summon defenders when needed. All it takes is just a little imagination to make the story work.

kramplarv
12-07-2009, 11:11
in Fantasy they are the most reliable army in the game and actually the antithesis of chaos.


which makes perfect sense in the chaotic approach :) And in addition, just because there were anarchists in spanish civil war, they still funtioned as a regular army. :) I'd like to think of the demons as a chaotic horde in the realm of chaos, but when they enter the mortal world, they are organised and so to bring as much devstation as possible in the shortest amount of time :)

anyway; I think it is reasonable to have demnarmies every now and then. All it takes to summon a demon is a simple try to use magic. :) Add to this the fact that everywhere in the warhammer world there are strongpoints of magic, where cracks in dimensions can unleash demons. :)

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
12-07-2009, 16:16
In the campaign it sould be as simple as a wandering Chaos Sorcerer who calls to them everytime he sees an opportunity. and his accolytes stay in territories they've conquered to summon defenders when needed. All it takes is just a little imagination to make the story work.

Thank you, I didn't know that imagination was involved in creating a campaign. What I'm saying is that all other armies are self-sufficient. Daemons must be called, summoned, a mages head explodes, a rift open, etc. The Empire, Bretonnia, Dwarfs, Elves, all just exist in the world, need to make camps/forts, get food.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it seems convoluted and forced. Daemons should have stuck with Warriors of Chaos.

Lijacote
12-07-2009, 16:33
Thank you, I didn't know that imagination was involved in creating a campaign. What I'm saying is that all other armies are self-sufficient. Daemons must be called, summoned, a mages head explodes, a rift open, etc. The Empire, Bretonnia, Dwarfs, Elves, all just exist in the world, need to make camps/forts, get food.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it seems convoluted and forced. Daemons should have stuck with Warriors of Chaos.

Eh, armies still need to be mustered, trained and they exist just as daemons need their supporting chaos/magic and sometimes their setups are even more ridiculous than the thought of a full-fledged daemon invasion with a greater daemon & cohorts (see over-used example: steam tanks, everywhere!)

The army works on the assumption that there is in fact a way for them to be there, much like a story works on the assumption the hero doesn't die of say, polio in the first chapter (at least usually) which they might realistically do. But they don't.

The assumption.

Wonder if this post makes sense.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
12-07-2009, 17:06
That assumption only stands in the one off games where there doesn't need to be a story, or the story is just as long as the battle. The winners are victorious, the losers die, and that's the end of it.

I am in control of the composition of the armies of the people in my campaign. I'm trying to help them learn how to use all the pieces of their armies by limiting their choices, and introducing new units as the story progresses. Please, no one else play the "2 steam tank" card because that is completely irrelevant to this thread.

The fact remains that daemons don't make any sense in a campaign, unless it takes place in or near the Chaos Wastes. I guess that's the problem when the Warhammer world gets too big. Maybe that's why they shouldn't make Cathay, Nippon, et al.

kramplarv
12-07-2009, 19:15
DoC makes sense everywhere. One miscast can turn the entire area into a demoninfested wasteland in a few meilliseconds.

selone
12-07-2009, 19:24
Are you sure?

Sceleris82
12-07-2009, 20:43
Nah, a demon army does NOT need someone else to summon it. Take the old Champions of Chaos book, and look under the Amon'chakai sektion.

He basicly gets bored of sitting in his castle and playing with time, so he summons his demon army and decides to move south.

So to the OP, all it takes is a mighty deamon who wants to do it.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
12-07-2009, 22:14
Well, thanks for all the input so far, gents.

I suppose I'm in the minority. It's not that an all daemon army cannot be made to work, it just seems all very unreasonable when compared to the background material.

selone
13-07-2009, 12:03
I can see your point. I don't think theres much cause for their to be a long standing army away from the chaos wastes either but yes I can see them appearing for small incursions as others have said.

Briohmar
13-07-2009, 14:29
Well, in the fluff of which you speak, there are two separate incidents of protracted wars against the Daemons, both of which were fought considerably south of the wastes, and both lasted for years, if not decades. One against the Elves in Ulthuan, and one against the Dwarves all along the Worlds edge mountains. I'd say there is plenty of reason why Daemons could work in a campaign, unless of course your ulterior motive is trying to forbid Daemons from your campaign. If that is the case, then why not just say: "Sorry, no Daemons allowed." You could also argue against VC and Tomb Kings, as the majority of the army doesn't stay animated all the time, and are only raised up for battles because of the amount of dark magic needed to keep them animated for any period of time.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
13-07-2009, 14:46
There is no one in my gaming group (currently) that plays daemons, and I would never try to keep someone from using an army they like. I know that daemons come south sometimes. Unfortunately for any campaign set in the present day of Warhammer, these incursions are very rare and only when the entire world is threatened. There are men, dwarvs, elves, lizardmen, orcs, warriors of chaos, beastmen, skaven, etc, hanging around (or can be reasonably seen as sending an advance party/army) the main areas of Warhammer all the time. Daemon armies are a once in a lifetime thing.

I don't mind daemons. But they need humans to work with them, and there are no such things in their army list. For background-based campaigns, I think they are not easily added in.

The Red Scourge
13-07-2009, 15:31
I don't like the concept of the all daemon army either. Too high fantasy for my tastes - and the total mishmash of HoC was much cooler.

But since they are there, I have no trouble seeing them in a campaign. Step one: Daemon army manifest, because of <insert Cliche Reason +2 of doom>. Step two: Daemons start to terrorise their surroundings. Deamons feed on terror, and suddenly they have a hold in the mortal realm. Remember that those armies fighting, usually fight because they need the land for some mundane purpose like farming, mining, control of ley lines etc.

Awilla the Hun
13-07-2009, 15:57
There are many things that I dislike about daemons, but the fluff isn't one of them. Daemon armies are cool in concept, and are fairly plausible.

(Whilst we're at it, where does the conception that all Empire players use 2 steam tanks come from? My Empire Army doesn't have any. It will have a Warrior Priest, but no so called "popemobile".)