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Kasrkin 666
10-07-2009, 08:36
I want to do a Spartan-themed army and need your help on finding some good models and what Army book would work best for stand0in rules. Thanks!

-Sunny

snurl
10-07-2009, 08:42
Wargods of Aegyptus make some great spartan figures.

Condottiere
10-07-2009, 09:11
Sparta and Rome have different aesthetics and tactics, despite Roman lip service to virtues.

Lord Khabal
10-07-2009, 09:16
Chaos - slaanesh based?

Triggerdog
10-07-2009, 09:38
Dogs of War

Take a butt ton of Pikemen. They fight in four ranks and that hurts alot.

The_Warsmith
10-07-2009, 09:40
sparta didnt use pikemen, spearmen more accuratly portray the greek phalanx

Memnos
10-07-2009, 09:42
sparta didnt use pikemen, spearmen more accuratly portray the greek phalanx

Yep, but the Dogs of War pikemen look like Greek Hoplites, so they'll 'feel' more Roman than any others.

You can take them as regular ol' spearmen, but they'll just suck. Spearmen will generally lose to anything and everyone now.

Griefbringer
10-07-2009, 10:20
OK, I am confused here - are we talking about Spartans or Romans, or possibly about Spartacus (a former Roman slave and later slave rebellino leader), or something else?

In case we are talking about Romans, then both Warlord Games and Wargames Factory make plastic Romans.

Condottiere
10-07-2009, 10:38
Early Republic did use a variant of hoplite tactics and weapons.

However, classic Roman is the Pilum and CC with short swords and shield.

I don't recall Sparta adopting the pike, though post-Alexander, their history is just not that interesting anymore.

Stormtrooper Clark
10-07-2009, 11:26
High Elves I'd say, not to mention they seem very Roman/Greek in design.

The SkaerKrow
10-07-2009, 12:23
Honestly, I'd use Warriors of Chaos for Spartans. While they don't have access to Spears, they do have two attacks apiece in their profile which gives you a similar hitting profile. They're also fairly small on model count, and do well at representing an elite, heavily armored infantry force on the table.

Gaargod
10-07-2009, 12:47
To be fair while Spartans didn't use technicaly pikes, their 'spears' were 20ft long....

I've seen the high elves Spartan army. Painted extremely well, dunno how it played.

Condottiere
10-07-2009, 12:50
Can you name a source for that 20' length?

willowdark
10-07-2009, 13:09
Kudos to Condottiere for needing a source. :p consummate professionalism.

The eternal guard style of the Wood Elves would work as well. Stubborn spearmen seem closer to the Spartan style than anything DoW, High Elves or Chaos can produce. and although Greek warfare is characterized by the spear Phalanx, open field battle required a heavy use of lite cavalry as well.

In fact, Alexander's lite cavalry spears (think Wild Riders) were fundamental to his success as a general. He always personally road into battle at the lead of his cav, hit the flank and always broke on the charge, likely caused fear in his opponents as well. ;)

A Wild Rider Highborn with maybe the KB spear and an eternal guard center with BSB would be a quintessential Alexanderian Greek army. You could use the Spartan models.

The invasion of Greece by Persia in which the classic battle of Thermopylae took place was the precursor to, and the primary motivation for, Alexander's conquest of Asia. So combining the elements of the Spartan Phalanx and the tactics of Alexander wouldn't be a huge diversion from the theme.

Wood Elves, all the way.

Edit: You could even use High Elf archers as your glade guard and have a very Greek looking missile base with an actually significant effect on the battle.

kramplarv
10-07-2009, 13:41
Can you name a source for that 20' length?

Robin Lane Fox, Alexander the Great 1973:76f.

13-21ft long Sarissa, depending on where in the phalanx you are fighting :)

DOH: pwnd myself... A hoplite spear was not 20'.. it was just a few sarissas who were that long. A normal thrusting spear is about 7-8' :)

Condottiere
10-07-2009, 13:42
There's no doubt that Macedonian tactics would influence other Greek states, but that does require a major revision of the weapons drill, so I'm really curious as to the adoption of the Spartan state of Macedonian techniques.

PS Google traced that reference to wikipedia entry of sarissa, which fails to mention if Sparta adopted it.

Alcibiades
10-07-2009, 14:11
Robin Lane Fox, Alexander the Great 1973:76f.

13-21ft long Sarissa, depending on where in the phalanx you are fighting :)

DOH: pwnd myself... A hoplite spear was not 20'.. it was just a few sarissas who were that long. A normal thrusting spear is about 7-8' :)

Yeah, you 'pwnd' yourself by confusing Spartans with Macedonians. The Spartans who defeated the Persians and Greeks were effectively neutered 50 years before Alexander. It should be noted that his armies, who were famed for the use of the sarissa, never conquered Sparta.
Addington, Cartledge and Davis Hansen all agree on an 8-10' length for the hoplite doru.

Kasrkin 666
10-07-2009, 16:54
Ok I knew that if I put 'Roman' and 'Spartans' together, people would get a little...I guess anal about it. For that I do appologize, I know how it feels when somebody does a stupid little thing like that. It was late and I really didn't care.

I am trying to make a Spartan army. Could anyone give me links to models and also, if it's not too much, help me figure out what unit fits what.

-Sunny

Wolf 11x
10-07-2009, 16:59
These models are insanely awesome!

http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/items/WGO-301.jpg

Now I want a Spartan army. :(

willowdark
10-07-2009, 17:00
But what army did you choose to craft your Spartans out of?

Kasrkin 666
10-07-2009, 17:03
I really have no idea. The only idea that has been thrown out that I like is using the WoC book.

Also, those models that Wolf 11x posted, do they have bases that are appropriate for Fantasy?

-Sunny

willowdark
10-07-2009, 17:04
Wood Elves, man! Wood Elves!

I'll just have to do it myself ;)

Kasrkin 666
10-07-2009, 17:06
Wood Elves would be very convenit to me, seeing that I have their Army book. I'll give it a lookiver and see if I think it is fitting.

-Sunny

Wolf 11x
10-07-2009, 17:15
I really have no idea. The only idea that has been thrown out that I like is using the WoC book.

Also, those models that Wolf 11x posted, do they have bases that are appropriate for Fantasy?

-Sunny

Link: http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/list_items.asp?CatID=30&SubID=43&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Olympus

The site claims they are 20mm. That would be regular Elf / Human size for Fantasy. Therefore, they should work. Don't quote me on that.

I really wouldn't try Wood Elves. I think Eternal Guard are horribly ineffective. The only list I've seen that utilizes them decently is King Leonidas's list. He fields over 100 Eternal Guard. That would be 9 boxes ($315 worth) of those Spartans. As far as I can tell, he took the army to a tournament in San Antonio years ago and hasn't used them since.

I faced a similar army a couple weeks ago. My opponent had 45 Eternal Guard in one block. Once characters were added, the unit was almost 1200 points in a 2000 point game. I simply used my 2000 points to kill his remaining 800 (a mix of Warhawk Riders, Wild Riders, Glade Riders, etc.). Once his supporting units were gone, I charged the Eternal Guard. The unit is extremely resilient with a 5+ save, 5+ ward save, a BSB, and LD9 stubborn. However, they don't really kill anything with S3 attacks.

Kasrkin 666
10-07-2009, 17:17
Wow, that's no fun, lol. So I think that the Wood Elves are out of the question.

-Sunny

willowdark
10-07-2009, 17:22
MSU Eternal Guard with a single 25 elf block with full command, warbanner and the BSB would be effective with massed Wild Riders, as I suggested originally, a solid missile base, glade riders and maybe Waywatchers.

no reason to assume we're talking about a death star here. EG can be good with right compliments and supports.

Wolf 11x
10-07-2009, 17:24
MSU Eternal Guard with a single 25 elf block with full command, warbanner and the BSB would be effective with massed Wild Riders, as I suggested originally, a solid missile base, glade riders and maybe Waywatchers.

no reason to assume we're talking about a death star here. EG can be good with right compliments and supports.

Right but you're veering farther and farther from Spartans. You're just a Wood Elf army using Spartan Models for Eternal Guard.

willowdark
10-07-2009, 17:36
But any army would do that, since you've specifically disqualified the "single phalanx" mentality of the 100 EG army. Every army would need to support the spear block. Wood Elf supports would be more naturally Hellenistic, if perhaps not exactly Spartan.

The SkaerKrow
10-07-2009, 17:41
In still maintain that if you're going for a truly Spartan force, ala' the vanguard at Thermopylae (yes, I know, its overdone, but still) that Warriors of Chaos are the way to go.

Wolf 11x
10-07-2009, 17:42
But any army would do that, since you've specifically disqualified the "single phalanx" mentality of the 100 EG army. Every army would need to support the spear block. Wood Elf supports would be more naturally Hellenistic, if perhaps not exactly Spartan.

I haven't disqualified it. I'd love to see someone playtest it. :D I just think it's a bad idea and I wouldn't invest in it.

Agree with Warriors of Chaos.

Kasrkin 666
10-07-2009, 17:49
What units would fit with Spartans in the WoC book?

-Sunny

willowdark
10-07-2009, 17:57
Not to sound cynical or argumentative here, but Warriors have - what - a 3+ AS in close combat. Hardly indicative of Bronze Age technology.

And a low leadership, which can be broken without producing kills.

Wood Elves, man. Wood Elves. ;)

Griefbringer
10-07-2009, 18:05
If we are going for the Thermopylaie period, it is no longer bronze age - though bronze is still largely in use. Still, no full plate armour around at that time.

Did anybody mention dark elves? They also get spearmen, and for support some light cavalry and a hydra (which also derives from Greek mythology).

Condottiere
10-07-2009, 18:05
If you're going to re-enact 300, HE Spearmen would be ideal, with ASF and 2/3 ranks.

Problem is, Spartans don't really have cavalry or chariots, and HE core don't really stack up that well against elite opposition.

Actually, you might have an interesting time using the Lizardman rules to represent Spartans, though Stegadons as elephants would be rather hard to swallow.

Kasrkin 666
10-07-2009, 18:58
I was thinking DE, but I don't know, feels a bit odd, but I'll look at there rules a bit more.

-Sunny

Griefbringer
10-07-2009, 18:59
Going for the comic/movie theme, should there be wizards (oracles, mystics) around, I would recommend giving a look for the lore of shadows.

- "This is madness! This is blasphemy!"
- "This is pit of shades."

Condottiere
10-07-2009, 19:06
You knew the Queen was a Witch, which is why that hole suddenly appeared when she nodded.

SilentStalker
10-07-2009, 19:22
Try saurus heavy lizzards with spears. Decent armor save (can be passed off as "superior fighting skill" in lieu of scaly skin =P) with tons of attacks at decent strength and solid leadership. Only drawbacks to theme would be average WS and low I. With enough green stuff you could probably turn a steg into an elephant (cut of horns, smooth out skin with green stuff, use green stuff and wire frame for ears and trunk)

Griefbringer
10-07-2009, 19:27
For an elephant, it might be better to get an actual elephant model than trying to convert the steggy.

Going lizardmen route would give the advantage of having javelin-armed skirmishers for support.

SilentStalker
10-07-2009, 19:29
True forgot about the javelin support! I think lizardmen would be the best plan for army choice

Wolf 11x
10-07-2009, 19:39
As a long time Lizardmen player, I can say they're a well-balanced and powerful army on the field.

DDogwood
10-07-2009, 20:10
If you're going for history, the Spartans never used elephants in battle. If you're just going for a classical feel, then Lizardmen with elephants for Stegadons, skinks with javelins for skirmishers, and saurus with spears for phalanxes would be reasonable.

willowdark
10-07-2009, 20:17
And on the soft breeze there came that familiar call...

...Wood Elves, man.... Wood Elves.

Slayerthane
10-07-2009, 20:47
I have always thought High Elves were the closest to a Hellenic Phalanx style army. Spearmen fight in three ranks, citizen armies, king elected by a council, and democratically elected government. They would probably be more akin to Athens rather than Sparta but it's close. The other option would be Dogs of War with pikes and duellists.

Condottiere
10-07-2009, 21:10
Core Spartan troops were elite, supported by light infantry.

The closest would be RoR, Ricco's, maybe even the Leopards.

For the High Elves, you might have to proxy Sword Masters or White Lions to achieve the effect you want in CC.

Griefbringer
10-07-2009, 21:25
And for something a bit different, there is also the dwarf slayer cult army list.

They do not have spears, shields or armour, and they have a bit lower movement rate, but they are unbreakable and looking for a heroic death.

Brother J
10-07-2009, 22:32
All infantry(or at least 80-90%) WoC list with a few small units of Warriors (Three at most...) and tons of marauders. Seems about right..Oh, don't forget the Mark of Slaanesh on EVERYTHING.

You'd have to go for a more close combat oriented general as well. As if the Chaos list needs more close combat prowess. As far as actual models go in the WoC army list, Marauders would more then likely be the best bet, if you could get enough without the Nordic style Viking Helms. (I'd also suggest using the marauder heads for the warrior models instead of the helmets to at least show some attempt at making them with as little armour as possible compared to the warriors.)

DDogwood
10-07-2009, 23:35
I have always thought High Elves were the closest to a Hellenic Phalanx style army. Spearmen fight in three ranks, citizen armies, king elected by a council, and democratically elected government. They would probably be more akin to Athens rather than Sparta but it's close. The other option would be Dogs of War with pikes and duellists.

From a background perspective, HE would be a good fit. In practice, though, they rely heavily on archers, chariots, artillery, and heavy cavalry, none of which is really appropriate for a Hellenic army.

A Hellenistic army needs to have spearmen, or possibly pikemen, fighting in large blocks with support by medium cavalry and skirmishers with short-range weapons.

A Roman-style army would use blocks of elite infantry, supported by blocks of weaker infantry, and small units of varying types of cavalry, ranged weapons, and artillery - they're probably a lot easier to represent in WFB because the Romans used such a wide range of auxiliary units.

kramplarv
11-07-2009, 00:22
Yeah, you 'pwnd' yourself by confusing Spartans with Macedonians.

didn't confused anything :D My fault was that i didn't read as good as I thought I did :D ergo the edit :)

txamil
11-07-2009, 00:32
I agree with brother J. And as an owner of some crocodile games minis (not the ones you are interested in though), I will say that they are good minis; very clean, and easy to paint well.

TheMav80
11-07-2009, 05:42
I think Lizardmen work great. Blocks of spearmen screened by javelin skinks.

If you really want to use an Elephant instead of a Stegadon, why not go with the Mumak?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1600089&prodId=prod1090149

Tokamak
11-07-2009, 10:05
I have always thought High Elves were the closest to a Hellenic Phalanx style army. Spearmen fight in three ranks, citizen armies, king elected by a council, and democratically elected government. They would probably be more akin to Athens rather than Sparta but it's close.

Yeah indeed. Just have some huge blocks of spearmen.

And elephants in a Spartan army? WTH? Why not make it a Persian army straight away?

zoggin-eck
12-07-2009, 00:07
Wow, that's no fun, lol. So I think that the Wood Elves are out of the question.

-Sunny

Really? You gave up on an idea because one person gave you a single example?

Weird. I think you need to sit down with a few different army books, a few history books and decide yourself. So far you haven't shown whether you actually know anything about the Spartans, the different army lists or even what miniatures are available.

Kasrkin 666
12-07-2009, 03:07
Yea, true:p. I just like my answer quick and fast. Odd, yes, lets just leaveit at that, he brought forth some good argument, I suppose. Plus I prefer a varity of model use.

-Sunny

Alcibiades
12-07-2009, 12:02
Really? You gave up on an idea because one person gave you a single example?

I think he gave up on it for a fairly good reason. The Wood Elves are a force that's all about quick movement, manuevering, and fighting from a distance. While the Eternal Guard might be a reasonable facsimile for a Spartan infantry force, they're not a unit that typifies the army.

What is a Spartan army? It's a heavy infantry force, comprised of deep rows of infantry armed with long spears, shields, and short swords. While they might have used bronze armor, it was the heaviest and best armor available in the world at the time. Particularly compared to Persian armies, but also to most other Hellenic forces, the Spartans used very well trained, relatively small forces. Even amongst Spartan forces, the kings' personal guards and the Rangers were considered elite forces.
Cavalry and light infantry was little used. Xenophon noted unarmoured helot campfollowers and squires engaging as peltasts, archers and light infantry. Cavalry units were referenced by Thucydides, but the majority of cavalry in the ancient world wasn't heavily armored, but the equivilent of light or medium units.
For the most part, sieges were not a part of ancient Greek combat. The Athenians engaged in plenty of sieges in Sicily, and other places, the majority of Spartan military expeditions weren't designed to capture opposing towns, but to meet other city-states armies in a field, duke it out, and then leave in triumph. Warmachines would be out of place in your Spartan army, as would the elephants suggested further upthread.

Magic obviously wasn't a big part of a Spartan force, although Greek armies did have priests accompany them to bless the forces and foretell the future of the battle. Spartans weren't big fans of the pseudoandreia (lit. false manhood) that a good auspex might inspire, but any Greek-themed force has a good basis in including a magician of light or the heavens.

So we're looking for an army that has plenty of elite, armored foot units, with perhaps a few more lightly armed skirmishers, msisile troops or cavalry. the force shouldn't rely on them, or warmachines, to make a reasonably competitive or fun to play army. The options that seem to most readily present themselves based on those criteria are Ogre Kingdoms, High Elves, and Warriors of Chaos. Another possibility might even be an O&G army, although you'd be missing out on most everything in the list. I suggest OK because even though it's a lightly armored army, the high toughness and wounds do a reasonable job of facsimilating the relative toughness of Greek armor. In the end, either of WoC or HE are probably your best bets.

The High Elf army is attractive because you have a variety of elite units to represent various parts of your forces. The ASF rule does well to represent the length of the Spartan spears, and Elvish high leadership does well to represent the 'unbreakable' reputation of the Spartan phalanges (until Leuctra).

Chaos might even be better, just because Mauraders are probably the best troops in the game to represent the helot auxiliaries you'll want to include for a little variety. Chaos Warriors on foot, especially with the Mark of Slaanesh, have a perfect stat-line for the Spartans that developed the reputation as one of the fiercest and most effective fighting forces of their day.

Thucydides' History and Xenophon's Anabasis are great contemporary resources to learn about the Spartans, although you can get much of the meat of them by reading Victor Davis Hansen's Western Way of War. If you do want to read original texts, make sure you check which translation you're getting: some older translations can make reading them very dry. If you're not a fan of non-fiction, Steven Pressman's Gates of Fire is a very well researched, gripping account of Thermopylae that will tell you most everything about the Spartan war machine.

Wednesday Friday Addams
12-07-2009, 12:11
Yeah, you 'pwnd' yourself by confusing Spartans with Macedonians. The Spartans who defeated the Persians and Greeks were effectively neutered 50 years before Alexander. It should be noted that his armies, who were famed for the use of the sarissa, never conquered Sparta.
Addington, Cartledge and Davis Hansen all agree on an 8-10' length for the hoplite doru.

Sparta refused to become allies like the rest of Greece and it doesn't seem like Alexander was very interested in giving a decent attempt. All of the spartan attempted uprisings were crushed.

Condottiere
12-07-2009, 13:33
It's true about sieges - the Spartans had to starve the Athenians out, since they couldn't penetrate their walls.It took years.

eagletsi1
12-07-2009, 14:11
Take a look here: This guy has got the roman theme down pat

http://www.remanlegions.com/

Tastyfish
12-07-2009, 14:32
Might be worth checking out the Warhammer Ancients as well, it was ages ago the last time I looked but you might find the rules are compatable enough for use in games of Warhammer Fantasy (I think the main compatability issues with the sets are more settings - romans against barbarians are far better than they should be against knights or samurai).

Warhammer has had a classical period prior to the rise of Sigmar, so if you wanted to take your idea further than 'I just watched 300' then there is a lot you could do (using Dogs of War to fill out any obvious gaps like wizards). Human tribes living in what is now Tilea seemed to have some sort of civilisation based in the ruins of Elven cities, not sure whether they were eventually subsumed into the Nehekaran Empire, were wiped out following Nagash's spell or existed afterwards. Other than the Empire or Bretonnia though, there's no army you wouldn't be able to fight with your historical force (and there is a mercenary general who has chosen to follow in his ancestor's footsteps, so you could have your army being his personal force when up against more modern forces).

Alcibiades
12-07-2009, 15:04
Sparta refused to become allies like the rest of Greece and it doesn't seem like Alexander was very interested in giving a decent attempt. All of the spartan attempted uprisings were crushed.

Very true. But the only better line in all of military warfare than Leonidas' reply to the the Persians who asked him to lay down his arms: "Molov labe" (Come and get 'em) was Cleombrotus reply to Alexander's statement that "If I enter Laconia, Sparta will be razed" : "eav" (If)

Griefbringer
12-07-2009, 16:02
Might be worth checking out the Warhammer Ancients as well, it was ages ago the last time I looked but you might find the rules are compatable enough for use in games of Warhammer Fantasy

Warhammer Ancient Battles is based on the WHFB 5th edition rules, so the lists are not directly portable to WHFB 7th edition - the point costs are not directly compatible.

ZeroTwentythree
14-07-2009, 15:37
Take a look here: This guy has got the roman theme down pat

http://www.remanlegions.com/



Or, since Spartans are still not Romans any more than they were at the beginning of this thread, he check out this:

http://www.thebainphalanx.com/

army based on Thebes, which was at least a little closer to Sparta and uses a hoplite army as its model. It's still a fantasy army, uses high elves as its basis.




Warhammer Ancient Battles is based on the WHFB 5th edition rules, so the lists are not directly portable to WHFB 7th edition - the point costs are not directly compatible.


However, WAB is also an excellent game on its own, and if the OP (or anyone else) is interested in ancient history, it's well worth checking out. :D