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Aenerion
10-07-2009, 14:12
I had a question about the vampiric sword (don't know the english name) allowing to cast the invocation spell one time per wound dealt.

I'll described the situation encountered and how we played it:

A vampire hero with 5 blood knigthts charge in a unit of swordmasters.
The swordmasters go first and killed 4 blood knights.
Then the hero goes in and killed 3 swordmasters allowing to regain 3 wounds.
The wording of the sword is not clear (in french) so it seems each wounds allows for one invocation at 1 wound.

He raised 3 of the blood knights.
He then attacks with all the blood knights (but the 3 raised don't have the bonus for charging which did not matter but anyway).

Is that the correct correct interpretation of the sword?
Please explain...

ARVO
10-07-2009, 14:21
I assume you're talking about the vampiric sword. In this case it's a tough cookie. Invocation specificly states that non-infantry units only ever regain a single wound, which some may say means that only one knight can be brought back per turn.

On The other hand, the rules for the sword state that for each unsaved wound, the vampire's unit gains a wound, as if invocation had been cast, so perhaps each wound counts as a different casting.

Personally I would go with the latter and say what your opponent did was legal.

Ixquic
10-07-2009, 14:48
Yes you gain one wound per wound dealt so 3 cavalry models would come back. The phasing "as invocation had been cast" is to simplify the process in regards to the how the raising is resolved (models come back but don't count as charging, command groups first, etc) but not the amount (which is indicated in the item's description). Similarly I knew someone that thought that since it said that you got extra models from the corpse carts when you wounded with this weapon since you were effectively casting invocation each time you wounded which is not the case.

Aenerion
10-07-2009, 14:50
Ok, thanks for the confirmation.
It's a powerfull combo in a blood knight unit.

Ixquic
10-07-2009, 15:04
Yeah I used it in a tourney with a unit of Black Knights (along with a lord with Red Fury and Eternal Hatred and a Wight with the Regen Banner) and it was pretty ridiculous.

Before anyone yells at me this was a no holds barred ******* styled event so we were encouraged to bring this kind of stuff. First game I had to go up against Fateweaver, the Masque and the Blue Scribes in one army. :(

Kalec
10-07-2009, 23:21
The 3 raised knights wouldn't get to attack, because the blood knights and the lord attacked at the same time since they were all charging. By the time the knights were raised, the unit was done fighting.

Amlesh
11-07-2009, 00:24
The 3 raised knights wouldn't get to attack, because the blood knights and the lord attacked at the same time since they were all charging. By the time the knights were raised, the unit was done fighting.

Not so. They get to fight, it states so in the rules (or the FAQ... one of the two). They just don't get the charging benefits.

havoc626
11-07-2009, 00:27
Umm, Vampire Lord still has I7, so would strike before the Blood Knights. It doesn't make much of a difference, but as far as resolving attack order, the lord would attack first, so that the Knights that came back would get to attack.

Drachen_Jager
11-07-2009, 02:54
The wording of invocation does say "in the following close combat phase" when talking about chargers being resurrected, which implies that they would not be able to attack in that phase, but it doesn't really address it in a clear manner.

PeG
11-07-2009, 07:49
But IoN as described in the text is cast during the magic phase meaning that the models raised ar allowed to attack the same turn that they are raised. The same should be valid for models raised by the sword as long as they attack after the vampire carrying the sword.

Drachen_Jager
14-07-2009, 00:20
It says they can't attack in the same phase they are raised.

It doesn't say anywhere that they can attack the same turn they were raised.

That means they can attack the same phase they are raised in your books? That's odd.

Spirit
14-07-2009, 01:58
It says they can't attack in the same phase they are raised.

It doesn't say anywhere that they can attack the same turn they were raised.

That means they can attack the same phase they are raised in your books? That's odd.

This is one of those cases that (in my opinion) the spell was clearly written with only the magic phase in mind, then the rules for the sword were written after.

Its an easy slip up to make, re writing the whole definition of a spell just for one sword would be a bit excessive, and probably wouldn't be picked up by the design team.

Of course you can cling to the fact that, by raw, you are right. But I suspect (again, opinion, im aware yours will differ) that the sword was intended to allow them to attack.

Drachen_Jager
14-07-2009, 02:40
Of course you can cling to the fact that, by raw, you are right. But I suspect (again, opinion, im aware yours will differ) that the sword was intended to allow them to attack.

Really? I was actually arguing my side because I thought it was what was intended, it seems pretty strange that you get doubly disadvantaged for striking first in this case.

Spirit
14-07-2009, 10:21
Really? I was actually arguing my side because I thought it was what was intended, it seems pretty strange that you get doubly disadvantaged for striking first in this case.

But it seems strange to me that they would mention a unit losing charging bonuses specifically when the only way i can see it happening in the magic phase is if you charge with only a front rank of models, lose some to stand and shoot, raise them back.

Otherwise why is the rule to lose charging bonuses even there?

Arnizipal
14-07-2009, 11:04
I assume you're talking about the vampiric sword. That's what he said ;)
The sword is called Blood Drinker in English.

Lordmonkey
14-07-2009, 12:03
But it seems strange to me that they would mention a unit losing charging bonuses specifically when the only way i can see it happening in the magic phase is if you charge with only a front rank of models, lose some to stand and shoot, raise them back.

It's a possibility, so it may well be the intent. Don't forget that dead champions can also be raised back and placed in the front rank, displacing a charging model - this would reduce the number of charging attacks!

Despite this, I still think that blood drinker should allow the models it raises to fight as long as their initiative band has not passed for that round of combat. I just can't justify it - by RAW, I am wrong.