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lee
10-07-2009, 17:20
hi all

can a unit of savage orc big uns have a magic banner
the book is not to clear

thanks all

theunwantedbeing
10-07-2009, 17:29
The book is perfectly clear.

Look on page 52 under the unit entry for savage orc boyz.
There is an option to upgrade them to big 'uns.
There is no option to give them a magical banner.

Unlike the option on the same page for orc boyz.
There is an option to upgrade them to big 'uns.
There is an option to give a unit upgraded to big 'uns a magical banner.

Why is it unclear?

Mid'ean
10-07-2009, 17:30
No. They do not have the option for a magic banner....Too bad to.

rtunian
10-07-2009, 17:53
it's not unclear.
it is dumb and needlessly restrictive, though.

"oh no, we wouldn't want orcs to have access to a combination of abilities and items that would let them have one very powerful unit per army, and god forbid they take gorbad in addition!!!"

like frenzy + butchery banner is really that overpowered... compared to flesh hounds. lol...

Urgat
11-07-2009, 15:39
You can do it on savage boars anyway, and now that's nasty if it hits. Assuming you give them spears, that's five S5 attacks per mini on the charge.

Grom Hellscream
29-07-2009, 21:47
funny, choppa rules say +1 str first round of combat... better than spears. and no exclusion to just models on foot this edition.

Urgat
29-07-2009, 22:00
funny, choppa rules say +1 str first round of combat... better than spears. and no exclusion to just models on foot this edition.

Choppas don't give +1S while mounted, check your rules again. There's flaws in the book, but even Ward is not that silly that he'd give an option that you have to pay and makes the unit less good.

Lordmonkey
30-07-2009, 22:07
One day i'll make a competitive Greenskin army, probably featuring a 40+ unit of boyz that the Black orc general can gleefully murder his way through when they roll a 1.

decker_cky
31-07-2009, 17:49
Gleefully murder his way through 2 models per game on average?

Fall from grace
02-08-2009, 13:01
Gleefully murder his way through 2 models per game on average?

With my dice rolling he could slaughter most of the unit.

theunwantedbeing
02-08-2009, 13:56
With my dice rolling he could slaughter most of the unit.

Not really the best idea to put him in some boar boyz then is it?

I'm assuming its boar boyz as they're usually small units that a black orc can potentially slaughter.

On a side note....if unit of boar boyz lead by a black orc character rolls a 1 for its waagghhh roll.
Does it suffer d6 wounds with no armour saves as well as the d6 st5 hits that the black orc inflicts when they roll a 1 for animosity?

Da GoBBo
02-08-2009, 15:21
Will the black orc still change the result to "plans a good un" while waaaghing? I think so, nothing in those rules stops the other so you should also apply all damage and have them have there turn as normal.

rtunian
02-08-2009, 15:51
tub yes. the waaagh! squabble wounds are dealt by the gods, and then additional quell animosity wounds are dealt by the boss.

gobbo i don't think so. the waaagh! rules says "a roll of 1 is always a squabble regardless of any modifiers". imo, quell animosity's effect is to modify the animosity roll, changing a roll of 1 to a roll of 2-5, hence it's a modifier. you apply the wounds of quell animosity, because nothing is stopping that from happening, but you don't apply the animosity roll modification, because the waaagh! rules say you can't apply modifiers to animosity during a waaagh!

waaghsplat
03-08-2009, 09:17
A related question: which rules comes first: frenzy or animosity? Seems odd that's there's a 1/6 chance that my frenzied savage orcs decide that they don't want to charge the enemy after all.

A second related question: the rules say that the mounts for mounted units also count as frenzied. Does that mean that the boars for savage orc boar boyz also get +1A? The friend I was playing with reckons that they shouldn't?

Thanks.

(wish there were some nice plastic savage orc models so I could field a huge dwarf eating unit) :)

Falkman
03-08-2009, 09:45
A related question: which rules comes first: frenzy or animosity? Seems odd that's there's a 1/6 chance that my frenzied savage orcs decide that they don't want to charge the enemy after all.
Animosity is rolled at the start of your turn, so takes precedent over frenzy.


A second related question: the rules say that the mounts for mounted units also count as frenzied. Does that mean that the boars for savage orc boar boyz also get +1A? The friend I was playing with reckons that they shouldn't?

Mounts also get +1 attack from frenzy.

waaghsplat
03-08-2009, 10:41
Cheers. Good news about the boars. I decided to play nice and go with my friend's version of the rule (only 1A for boars). Nice to see that the unit is even better! :) I've only got 5 so far, but the two games in which I've used them have seen them do pretty well. Is there any "official" clarification I can use to show my friend? As he agreed that the rules implied that, but thought that it wasn't the intention, and the rule was poorly worded, etc.

A shame about the animosity/frenzy. We've been played it that way so far, but I was hoping that we were wrong. Had a funny game the other week when the savage orcs ate a unit of skinks, pursued, and ended up behind the rest of my opponent's army. All set for a rear charge, but of course, no, they decide to squabble. Typical eh.

Falkman
03-08-2009, 11:17
Is there any "official" clarification I can use to show my friend? As he agreed that the rules implied that, but thought that it wasn't the intention, and the rule was poorly worded, etc.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m470856_Warhammer_FAQ_2008-02_Edition.pdf
Page 3, right hand side.

Urgat
03-08-2009, 11:19
Cheers. Good news about the boars. I decided to play nice and go with my friend's version of the rule (only 1A for boars). Nice to see that the unit is even better! :) I've only got 5 so far, but the two games in which I've used them have seen them do pretty well. Is there any "official" clarification I can use to show my friend? As he agreed that the rules implied that, but thought that it wasn't the intention, and the rule was poorly worded, etc.

They don't imply anyhing, it's stated black on white: boars are mount, mounts get frenzy, so boars get frenzy. There's no need to point him at any other rule, I believe (is there any anyway? I know there's a faq covering the charriot case, maybe the orc&gob faq). It's the intention, it's not poorly worded, I don't get what your friend means, really. I the same vein, a savage orc boss on a charriot gives frenzy to the charriot (so the boars and the orc crew left get +1 attacks each), and the same orc on a wyvern gives +1 to the wyvern. Horne knights or mounted marauders also give +1 attack to their mount, as do the VC knights of the blood keep, etc etc.
Yes, if they get a charge, frenzied mounted troops are very nasty, no doubt. Th'eyre also quite easy to bait, keep that in mind.

edit: Well, there's Falkman's post now :) Got to point out that the Mark of Khorne deal in that FAQ has been overruled by the new armybook, because the Mark rules used to give only the rider frenzy, now it simply gives the frenzy rule.

Da GoBBo
03-08-2009, 13:19
gobbo i don't think so. the waaagh! rules says "a roll of 1 is always a squabble regardless of any modifiers". imo, quell animosity's effect is to modify the animosity roll, changing a roll of 1 to a roll of 2-5, hence it's a modifier. you apply the wounds of quell animosity, because nothing is stopping that from happening, but you don't apply the animosity roll modification, because the waaagh! rules say you can't apply modifiers to animosity during a waaagh!

Yes that sounds reasonable. Another question. Quell animosity says the unit counts as having rolled plans a good un. It's therefor not a modifier but a replacement. Doesn't that mean the initial result is replaced and the unit would thus only get the black orc bosses damage and can do whatever they want that turn?

rtunian
03-08-2009, 13:51
to be honest, i don't know definitively.

in my opinion, the gods are not fooled by a black orc boss, and inflict the wounds right when the boyz start squabbling. the boyz have to actually be squabbling in order for quell animosity to have any effect, because the boss isn't going to bash heads in for no reason (unless he's grimgor). so, if you agree that the boyz have to be squabbling in order for the boss to bash heads in, and squabbling on a waaagh! by rule invokes the wrath of gork and mork, then you must also agree that the fury of the gods is dealt to the boyz in addition to the fury of the boss.

the unit doesn't gain rank or boss modifiers because "a roll of 1 is always a squabble, regardless of any modifiers", but the quell animosity might still change the 1 to a 2-5, letting the unit act as normal (assuming it hasn't panicked itself). this is what i don't know either way. it hasn't happened to me yet, because i don't call waaagh!'s unless i have several units that really need that extra inch or two to charge

Da GoBBo
03-08-2009, 13:58
Yes that sounds good.


(assuming it hasn't panicked itself)

Hehe :D

Milgram
03-08-2009, 14:50
the first time I have seen this situation was two weeks ago on a tournament. 6 big 'uns dead due to squabbling and 5 dead due to the bsb attacking the unit. I was so happy that this happened when we swaped the armies in the fourth battle. :D

the d6 lifes are taken as they are additional to squabbling.
the d6 hits are dealt as the result is squabbling
the result is changed to 'normal' as the squabbling has to take effect in order for the blorc to quell animosity. so both rules are applied.

Carpet
03-08-2009, 21:45
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m470856_Warhammer_FAQ_2008-02_Edition.pdf
Page 3, right hand side.

Also not sure if my BRB is a reprint that includes clearer wording but on pg 52: "In the case of mounted troops, Frenzy affects both riders and their steeds."