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Arnizipal
10-07-2009, 18:07
Before I start I will admit that I haven't played with my greenskins for quite a while, and I haven't played much of 7th edition altogether so I may just be getting rusty...

That said, when re-reading the Choppa rules on page 18 of the Orcs&Goblins armybook I noticed the Choppa doesn't replace the Orc's regular hand weapon anymore like it did in 6th edition. Since all models are equipped with a hand weapon by default (unless otherwise noted) and Orcs are equipped with a Choppa (which is also a hand weapon) by default as well, does that mean that (by RAW) Orcs come equiped with two hand weapons as a standard?

jahorin
10-07-2009, 20:18
Thus implying that you are getting ripped off when you buy additional hand-weapon. I will have to check in book later when I come back from work.

[edit] If you look in the page with the point cost and wargears of each unit. Under wargear it's only listed choppa, not choppa and hand weapon.

Witchblade
10-07-2009, 22:27
I think the intent is clear that Choppas replace hand weapons.

Arnizipal
10-07-2009, 22:58
Thus implying that you are getting ripped off when you buy additional hand-weapon. I will have to check in book later when I come back from work.

[edit] If you look in the page with the point cost and wargears of each unit. Under wargear it's only listed choppa, not choppa and hand weapon.
Yes, but according to the Hand Weapon rules in the main rule book page 56, all models are considered to be carrying a hand weapon unless otherwise noted. With Orcs it doesn't say (or even strongly imply) that the Choppa replaces the hand weapon.

Tweakout
10-07-2009, 23:27
the wargear section of your armybook states that you have a choppa with no mention of a hand weapon. Looking through other armybooks it clearly states what weapons everything has, even going so far as to say for ghouls Filth encrusted claws (hand weapon). Following the logic that the wargear section by the point cost pages is taking the time to state what your carrying orcs do not have a hand weapon in addition to their choppas but have a choppa. If the other way was true why would they bother to list all of the units in the game that just have hand weapons as having hand weapons in their wargear.

Gazak Blacktoof
11-07-2009, 10:24
Arnizipal, according to a precise reading of the rules you are indeed correct, they do have a hand weapon as well as a choppa. This doesn't appear to be intentional though as characters and units can purchase additional hand weapons, a pointless option.

The intent is clearly that the choppas replace their hand weapons, as with the previous version of the book.

rtunian
11-07-2009, 13:00
the choppa is a hand weapon for all intents and purposes, not some intents and purposes, all intents and purposes.

if the brb says that all models are assumed to carry a hand weapon, and a choppa is a hand weapon, how is the requirement that all models carry hand weapons not met by the choppa?

Brother Siccarius
11-07-2009, 13:44
Before I start I will admit that I haven't played with my greenskins for quite a while, and I haven't played much of 7th edition altogether so I may just be getting rusty...

That said, when re-reading the Choppa rules on page 18 of the Orcs&Goblins armybook I noticed the Choppa doesn't replace the Orc's regular hand weapon anymore like it did in 6th edition. Since all models are equipped with a hand weapon by default (unless otherwise noted) and Orcs are equipped with a Choppa (which is also a hand weapon) by default as well, does that mean that (by RAW) Orcs come equiped with two hand weapons as a standard?

No, the "Unless otherwise noted" doesn't mean they have to say "Carries **** instead of a handweapon". Just that they carry the weapons in their profile, and if they don't have weapons in their profile they're assumed to have handweapons. Otherwise you could say that Empire Swordsmen have two hand weapons, or Marauders, or Greatswords. But no, they all have handweapons in their profile, which are the assumed hand weapons, same with the Orcs. The only difference is that the Orc hand weapon, which is a hand weapon in all respects, has special rules to it.

Urgat
11-07-2009, 15:28
So what anyway? You can't use two different kind of weapons together, so no, orcs don't come with the ability to fight with additional hand weapon for free >>

Chipacabra
11-07-2009, 18:12
The rule that everything gets a hand weapon unless otherwise noted is just about the least consistently used thing ever in their armybook design. It's not good for your blood pressure to think too much about it.

Gazak Blacktoof
11-07-2009, 22:23
So what anyway? You can't use two different kind of weapons together, so no, orcs don't come with the ability to fight with additional hand weapon for free >>

Actually you should be able to use a choppa and a hand weapon- Convention and the FAQ response indicate that a dark elf can use a beast master's scourge and a hand weapon in combination for +1 attack and armour piercing. There is no reason according to the rules that an orc could not use a choppa and a hand weapon for +1 attack and +1 strength in the first round of combat.

Arnizipal's reading of the rules is correct, you just wont find anybody that plays it that way.

Urgat
12-07-2009, 00:14
Actually you should be able to use a choppa and a hand weapon- Convention and the FAQ response indicate that a dark elf can use a beast master's scourge and a hand weapon in combination for +1 attack and armour piercing. There is no reason according to the rules that an orc could not use a choppa and a hand weapon for +1 attack and +1 strength in the first round of combat.

Arnizipal's reading of the rules is correct, you just wont find anybody that plays it that way.

Convention makes no rule, and there's dozens of exemples that show that precedents don't work in fantasy. What is ruled one way in one case will not necessarily be ruled the same way in another case. Anyway that DE thing is absurd: the BRB rule to gain one attack is to use two hand weapons (one might get the clue that "additional" means that you have to have one hand weapon first, and get another one). Then you get the choppa rules. A choppa is a choppa and a hand weapon is a hand weapon, they both got their own sets of rules, you can't just happily mix the two. What would stop me from using a choppa and a spear at the asme time, otherwise? There's no rule preventing those two particular kind of weapons to be used together, afaik, so choppa gives the one round +1S and the spear lets fight on two ranks?
The rule is and has always been that you nominate which weapon you're using in a fight, and that's one kind of weapon with or w/o shield (unless specifically mentioned, eg pistols). Heck even maneaters with their silly amount of weapon options can't use two different at the same time.

WLBjork
12-07-2009, 07:10
the wargear section of your armybook states that you have a choppa with no mention of a hand weapon. Looking through other armybooks it clearly states what weapons everything has, even going so far as to say for ghouls Filth encrusted claws (hand weapon).

Take a look at Manfred and Vlad von Carstein sometime. No mention of a Hand Weapon in their equipment, but they do have one (otherwise they'd be in an impossible situation should their magic weapon gets destroyed).


No, the "Unless otherwise noted" doesn't mean they have to say "Carries **** instead of a handweapon". Just that they carry the weapons in their profile, and if they don't have weapons in their profile they're assumed to have handweapons.

I disagree. The absence of text is not noting otherwise.

If you were asked to do something in a years time, and weren't aware it was no longer necessary, would you still carry out the task?

Gazak Blacktoof
12-07-2009, 09:59
Convention makes no rule, and there's dozens of examples that show that precedents don't work in fantasy. What is ruled one way in one case will not necessarily be ruled the same way in another case.

I'll always use a similar rule as precedent for another. Aside from an agreement with your opponent or rolling a D6 every time the rules get a bit fuzzy there's no other way to play the game.

Each and every time the studio releases an FAQ that contradicts a previous FAQ the forums are up in arms about it.

Suffice to say I disagree with you and unless you find something compelling that's not going to change, however I'm not going to argue the point further. As I said, the obvious intent of the choppa rule is that it replaces their hand weapon, though this is never stated in the current version of the book.

I've got a greenskin army and neither I nor the people I play with would insist that they still had their hand weapon. The upgrade options are proof enough of the games designers' intent.

Lord Zarkov
12-07-2009, 11:36
Convention makes no rule, and there's dozens of exemples that show that precedents don't work in fantasy. What is ruled one way in one case will not necessarily be ruled the same way in another case. Anyway that DE thing is absurd: the BRB rule to gain one attack is to use two hand weapons (one might get the clue that "additional" means that you have to have one hand weapon first, and get another one). Then you get the choppa rules. A choppa is a choppa and a hand weapon is a hand weapon, they both got their own sets of rules, you can't just happily mix the two. What would stop me from using a choppa and a spear at the asme time, otherwise? There's no rule preventing those two particular kind of weapons to be used together, afaik, so choppa gives the one round +1S and the spear lets fight on two ranks?
The rule is and has always been that you nominate which weapon you're using in a fight, and that's one kind of weapon with or w/o shield (unless specifically mentioned, eg pistols). Heck even maneaters with their silly amount of weapon options can't use two different at the same time.

Actually the rule is called 'Fighting with two hand weapons (infantry)' and specifically mentions it can be used with "any combination of hand weapons". Choppas and Beastmasters Scourges are both (by their rules) hand weapons so may be used as part of 'any combination of hand weapons' (by infantry) to gain +1 attack. The rule only mentiones that he has to have a hand weapon in each hand, nothing about either of them being 'additional'.

The reason you cannot fight with a choppa and a spear is beacsue a spear is clearly not an hand weapon and so you have no permission to use it with another weapon.

Urgat
12-07-2009, 11:39
I would have liked to see how you'd try to counter my spear+choppa argument (much more important precedent than your DE combo, if you insist that precedents apply...), but since ultimately it's silly to keep on when we share the same final opinion ( that choppa obviously replaces hand weapon), I won't argue further either.


Actually the rule is called 'Fighting with two hand weapons (infantry)' and specifically mentions it can be used with "any combination of hand weapons". Choppas and Beastmasters Scourges are both (by their rules) hand weapons so may be used as part of 'any combination of hand weapons' (by infantry) to gain +1 attack. The rule only mentiones that he has to have a hand weapon in each hand, nothing about either of them being 'additional'.

The reason you cannot fight with a choppa and a spear is beacsue a spear is clearly not an hand weapon and so you have no permission to use it with another weapon.

Fair enough (though I believe that the "any combination of hand weapons" part, like for all the rest of the rulebook, is just there to clear any question about sword/axe/hammer/knife/etc possible distinctions). If the rules say that they are hand weapons (the choppa does say so: "choppas are hand weapons in all respects"), then, well, doesn't it mean that it fits the default handweapon slot and therefore ends that discussion all the same? "In all respects" would include the bit about every model having one, I believe.

Lord Zarkov
12-07-2009, 12:00
I would agree that yes the Choppa (being a hand weapon in all respects) would fill the default hand wepon slot. Particularly as the rule is 'all models are assumed to have a hand weapon of some kind'. A choppa is a 'hand weapon of some kind' so would fuffil this requirement.

using different types of hand weapons is more important for DE however where Beastmasters come with a hand weapon and a scourge in their rules, and masters come with a hand weapon as standard in their description and can buy a scourge as extra.

Gazak Blacktoof
12-07-2009, 14:12
I would have liked to see how you'd try to counter my spear+choppa argument

I assumed you were joking.

Urgat
12-07-2009, 14:43
I assumed you were joking.

Two different weapons that give two different bonuses. In one case you think it's normal to combine them, in the other case you think it's a joke. You have an interesting set of mind, should I say :p Never mind anyway, Zarkov has nailed it down well enough.

Brothersir
13-07-2009, 09:25
It seems fairly obvious what was intended in the rules. Any argument otherwise I would feel is poor sportsmanship and an attempt to bend the rules in your favor.

Da GoBBo
13-07-2009, 11:06
Arnizipal's reading of the rules is correct, you just wont find anybody that plays it that way.

No, Arnizipal's read is not correct. rtunian allready explained why. A choppa is a handweapon, thus orcs are by default equiped with a handweapon.


the choppa is a hand weapon for all intents and purposes, not some intents and purposes, all intents and purposes.

if the brb says that all models are assumed to carry a hand weapon, and a choppa is a hand weapon, how is the requirement that all models carry hand weapons not met by the choppa?

Brother Siccarius
14-07-2009, 02:07
Actually you should be able to use a choppa and a hand weapon- Convention and the FAQ response indicate that a dark elf can use a beast master's scourge and a hand weapon in combination for +1 attack and armour piercing. There is no reason according to the rules that an orc could not use a choppa and a hand weapon for +1 attack and +1 strength in the first round of combat.

Arnizipal's reading of the rules is correct, you just wont find anybody that plays it that way.
The difference is, that the Beastmaster has both a handweapon and the scourge in their profile. Orcs do not have a hand weapon and a choppa in their profile. The question is not can they get the +1 attack with two hand weapons, but do they have to pay for it?

Does their choppa count as the assumed handweapon, or in the swathes of army books where the assumed handweapons are no longer assumed, are the Orcs the one exception?

So what anyway? You can't use two different kind of weapons together, so no, orcs don't come with the ability to fight with additional hand weapon for free >>

Because the Orc Choppa is a handweapon by it's own rules, they can use it in conjunction with an additonal handweapon for the bonus, or a shield for the extra +1AS in combat.

Adran
14-07-2009, 08:53
I bring you the ogre club to the debate.
The Ogre club counts as a hand weapon. You can buy the ogre an additional hand weapon. It states that this can be used in conjuction with the club
Following the original premise, the ogres would surely already have a hand weapon (In addition to the club, which is their only listed equipment), so this would be the most pointless 4 points spent.

And I'm fairly sure all cases of magic item destroying do leave the item as a mundane item of the same type, so your vampires wouldn't be armless on the field.

Arnizipal
14-07-2009, 10:24
Does the Ogre club replace the standard hand weapon they have? If not, then it's indeed the same situation.

The counter point that every model is equipped with a hand weapon, and the Orc Choppa IS a hand weapon is pretty good I think. In that case there would indeed be no point for the Orc to have a default hand weapon.

T10
14-07-2009, 21:30
Since all models are equipped with a hand weapon by default (unless otherwise noted) and Orcs are equipped with a Choppa (which is also a hand weapon) by default as well, does that mean that (by RAW) Orcs come equiped with two hand weapons as a standard?

One of two.

1) It is indeed the intent of the games designers to give all Orc Boys two hand weapons, but they go out of their way to conceal this fact by including a misleading option to take an additional choppa for extra points. You have stumbled across an easter egg: a rare unit option that must be unlocked by mastering the rules to the extent that you detatch from the common world. Perhaps one player in a hundred, nay! in ten thousand will catch this little gem.

2) Orc Boys come with a choppa instead of a hand weapon.

I'm going for option 2.

-T10

Nurgling Chieftain
14-07-2009, 22:02
2) Orc Boys come with a choppa instead of a hand weapon.I prefer rtunian's formulation: the choppa IS their hand weapon.

Da GoBBo
14-07-2009, 22:04
I prefer rtunian's formulation: the choppa IS their hand weapon.

quoted for truth