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Silentbob10
10-07-2009, 23:12
Hi all firstly i apoligise if this has already bin talked about but i couldnt find it so here it goes. Do you mind if people u play against use forgeworld rules for say razorbacks for blood angels and dark angles. The reason i ask is for in this case both armies only have the option for a twin-linked heavy bolter or lascannon. But in the forgeworld rules you can take a multi melta. Another point is due to the recent update to the imperial armour 2 forgeworld book they have increased the transport capacity of the landraiders to bring them inline with the new marine book.
Another good example is the fact that sisters rhino's are now 35pts in the forgeworld book insteaf of the 50 in there book. I know that there not allowed in tounament play generally but would you really be as petty as to starve a sisters player of an extra 100pts to spend on there army due to overpriced rhinos even when a viable alternative is available.

Mannimarco
10-07-2009, 23:19
no

in fact i encourage people to use forgeworld rules, for to long people have jumped on that "you must ask you oppenants permission" to be a dick to other players. Case and point: i like to run cyclops demolition vehicles, they cost 25 points, have an armour of 10 and are basically a demolition charge with tracks, a penetrating hit causes it to explode prematurely, when i asked if i could use them in a game the reaction i got you would think i had just said "hey do you mind if i use an extra 3k points in this 1500pts"

you wanna use a super heavy or a flyer then yeah thats game breaking and people are going to have a problem, you wanna use a chimera with an autocannon turret? thats fine go right ahead but both are met with the same level of derision by many players

Archangel_Ruined
10-07-2009, 23:25
Nope, they overcost everything anyway. The thing that really gets me is people who ask to use apocalypse stuff in regular games, where it's horrifically undercosted and over-armed. Superheavies and flyers aren't a problem so long as you let opponents know what the rules concerning them are and let them tweak and trim their lists accordingly. In fact if you just take that as a general rule of thumb I'm sure you wont have a problem. It's five or ten minutes or courtesy before you start that keeps everything running smoothly in the game.

Silentbob10
10-07-2009, 23:41
Another example i can think of is my friend who has a twinlinked heavybolter turret for his chimera but they didnt put it in the new codex( which tbh i had a bit of a giggle about) but in my opinion it just gives players an exuse to complain "it wasnt fair because u re-rolled to hit!" Some people really are that petty ppl. I also agree that weve got to the point where as long as your not using super heavies and flyers and gargants that you really shouldnt have to ask because at the end of the day if you give ppl a chance to complain 9 out of 10 times they will.

EVIL INC
10-07-2009, 23:45
I have no problems facing forgeworld stuff so long as I know whats coming beforehand. I would have to set up for a reguler large point game and suddenly find a reaver titan sitting on the other side of the table with no forward knowledge.

self biased
10-07-2009, 23:55
Nope, they overcost everything anyway.

the razorback, rhino, and land raider rules are just about word for word out of the marine codex.

i'm all for dark angels, blood angels, and black templars using the updated vehicle rules.

DaSpaceAsians
11-07-2009, 01:26
As long it's not a flyer or a superheavy, there's no reason. If the player refuses because it's overpowered because it's Forge World or it's not fair that just because you had more money (in my case, ingenuity) that you have an unit noone else can have because they don't have enough money don't bother unless he challenges you and even if he tries to force not to use Forge World just go away. If he's a jerk to you about it, there's a reason why the IA volumes are that thick.

jeffersonian000
11-07-2009, 01:47
I have no issues with other people using Forge World rules against me even though I do not like to use the same rules for my own units.

I play Grey Knights, and the IA2 Update actually makes all of my existing GK vehicles worse and more expensive at the same time. I'd rather not have the new stuff if it means I can keep using my old stuff at better prices with better rules.

However, for my Sisters of Battle, the IA2 Update offers better Rhinos, okay Immolaters, slightly expensive Exorcists, yet adds the excellent Repressor to which I'd be okay with taking some of the bad in order to get those better units over those available in the codex.

SJ

jtw1n
11-07-2009, 01:55
I would feel a little odd if someone showed up tomorrow to our escalation league at my local shop toting a list with a bunch of Forge world Only Rules models. I would love to field all of my Chimera's with Autocannons so they can knock out enemy transports but I would feel odd asking someone to allow it. I know most of the FW mods are just filling in gaps with GW oversights and missing gear but in some ways they might have been left out for a good reason. Like the Autocannon example. A mech army would be ridiculous with that many autocannon shots every turn. It would feel like picking and choosing from both a Space Marine and Chapter Codex.

LoneSniperSG
11-07-2009, 01:57
..thats fine go right ahead but both are met with the same level of derision by many players

In my experience, people ragging on you for using FW stuff is because they don't have any or can't afford it.

The cool thing now is that all but two Forge World Leman Russ variants are legal and defined in the new IG codex. The only two that are left out are the Leman Russ Annihilator, and the Conqueror (Which is broken now anyway)

I will agree with the flyers, Superheavies and, heck, Superheavy flyers! Best to make sure your opponent is cool with facing them.

One time before one of my games started, a fellow player went and punched in a list on Army Builder, then came back and said "Okay, so I have nine Thunderhawks..." Much cursing and complaining was done, while I cycled through my entire army trying to figure out what would be the best at shooting them down.

Turns out it was a joke anyway. Who in blazes could ever afford, build and paint NINE Thunderhawks?

Khornies & milk
11-07-2009, 03:07
We use them all the time...within our own group, about 8 of us. When anyone is invited to have some games with us we let them know beforehand if we're using any FW stuff so they know upfront. No-ones ever had an issue with it.

TheDarkDuke
11-07-2009, 03:31
Time and place are the big issues really.

Are you giving me a fair heads up, as in like the day before I show up to play or are you telling me as we set up the board/unpack models? The latter being not so well received. Trying to pull them out in a tournie or during an escalation league without it being told at the beginning that FW rules may be added/used is not going to fly in a tournie and would certainly bother me in escalation.

The other issue for me and I am sure others is frequency of use, and power increase. I don't want to play ever game or the majority of games with rules that were excluded from the actual army rules/entries. I want to face the army in the codex I can pick up off the shelf, that everyone and anyone has that same ability by going to their LGS or GW. The biggest concern is that mentioned of SoB. Right now they are a very solid army using there established codex, reducing the points costs for the same unit by switching resources just says I care not for trying fun rules, I just want my army stronger. More so as the OP seems to imply to simply pluck out the better parts in FW rules without taking any of the draw backs.

I know several of the FW rules are over costed regarding points, however somethings simply work out cheaper or more efficient then the alternative in the actual codex, to me thats not something even in a friendly game I want to face the majority of the time. Now as mentioned before some attempt to sacrifice me to the chaos gods, Im totally for trying out new things, creating mission rules outside of the established rules and using things like DKoK, Renegade, Zombie Pirates, Gnoblar Army and Army of the Cairns lists set out in FW rules or White Dwarf rules, I just want to know beforehand and not all the time, which I think is a more than fair mind set.

zetaplus
11-07-2009, 04:08
No, not in the slightest. <3 FW

Ironmonger
11-07-2009, 04:44
No, not in the slightest. <3 FW

I would even go so far as to encourage it. I'd love it if someone showed up with a 2000 pts Krieg army (superheavies and all!), or an Elysian w/Vultures, etc. Similarly, I'd be a little pissed if someone said 'Want a game?' And then, after seeing Knarloc Riders and a Mounted Great Knarloc cried foul and said 'I won't play against THAT!' like it was pure cancer. IA rules are there for a reason: to be played. They're as 'official' as any other model or rule put out by GW.

<3 FW2 4ever!:p

greenmtvince
11-07-2009, 05:22
For anyone that says Flyer rules should be left out, can I ask who here faced Valkyries under 4th Edition Flyer rules, and who has also faced them under the new 5th Edition Skimmer rules? Points and armour changes aside, they were way easier to take out, or disrupt as flyers without any AA than they are as skimmers, and now don't have a finicky reserve roll every turn. AND they can hide them behind cover (ATM task 2034 Masking/Unmasking) instead of the "Everyone has LOS to flyers rule." They were as good as gone if anyone had a Hydra, Firestorm, or Hyperios.

My fliers got beat up constantly with no AA threat, because I took the time to explain the rules to my opponents beforehand. My FLGS even allowed me to use a 5 aircraft Elysian list in tournies. I'm super psyched that with the new codex I can play a really competetive D-99 list (Veterans and Valks) instead of the gimped, but characterful one in IA4.

DarkReaver
11-07-2009, 05:44
1) No Super Heavies, Fliers or Gargantuan Creatures.
2) Let me take a look at the rules for the army and units/vehicles they're using before the game.

If anyone wants to use Forgeworld rules comply with those two rules and I'll play anyone with them.

Corporal Chaos
11-07-2009, 06:02
I have no problem letting anybody use anything that they can provide the rules for me to look at. If we both can see them Game on.

darker4308
11-07-2009, 06:14
People deride forgeworld for a reason. It is a powergamers dream. You play one ****** who tries to buy victory and anyone else sporting forgeworld goodies becomes that ******. With my permission I will allow "some" forgeworld on the table and only in friendly games however, I take offense to anyone who shows up with a titan and expects me to be instantly cool with it. I mean I know people spend hours painting them and a small fortune on them, but the rules are not directly sanctioned so I see no obligation to let someone play with them against me or claim victory against me using them. As I said friendly games only.

Ironmonger
11-07-2009, 06:50
It is a powergamers dream.

What?! How? Almost all of it is over-costed and underpowered.


...but the rules are not directly sanctioned so I see no obligation to let someone play with them against me or claim victory against me using them...

I don't understand what you mean about the rules not being sanctioned. You mean in like, a GW tournament?

Well, I agree that someone just showing up with a Titan would be surprising, I wouldn't be pissed about it. They get one Reaver: I get a whole army... although a squad of LC Termies would be about enough to itch his ankle;)

Khornies & milk
11-07-2009, 07:46
People deride forgeworld for a reason. It is a powergamers dream. You play one ****** who tries to buy victory and anyone else sporting forgeworld goodies becomes that ******. With my permission I will allow "some" forgeworld on the table and only in friendly games however, I take offense to anyone who shows up with a titan and expects me to be instantly cool with it. I mean I know people spend hours painting them and a small fortune on them, but the rules are not directly sanctioned so I see no obligation to let someone play with them against me or claim victory against me using them. As I said friendly games only.

I don't think that the OP was even remotely suggesting anything like a Titan, but the lesser differences that exist between some models.

And 'overpowered'...you jest, surely! If anything, the FW player is disadvantaging themself, mainly because of the extra points spent.

Triggerdog
11-07-2009, 07:51
I use FW stuff all the time and encourage others to do so as well. It adds alot of flair to the game I think.

and if they coughed up the money to buy, say, a Field Mortar or a Thudd Gun battery then by all means they can field it.

Bathawk
11-07-2009, 07:53
I think in the average gamer mind if you say "forge world" they're going to assume a Super Heavy or a Flyer is involved

even if not they still ahve no idea, , I mean if a Tau player says he want's to bring in remora's to the game...well I don't have anythign but the first Imperial Armour book, so for all I know remora's are fast attack ST:10 ap:1 vehicles

everyone wants to be able to be ready for their opponent

Vyperchild
11-07-2009, 08:31
I agree that most players don't want to play against FW stuff because they're jealous.

Me, sure I'd be jealous of someone dropping some greater knarlocs or whatever, but I'd be so happy to have the chance ot play against something that doesn't show up so often. I'd even unquestioningly allow superheavies and flyers. Maybe a titan would have me thinking twice, but I'd still play.

Plus I'm the sort of player who hates it when people try to impose extra rules like no FW. After all, it's not like a bunch of chaos marines attack a guard outpost and say 'oy no fair. You can't use any planes' and the guard sigh and send the lightning fighters back to the hangar.

starlight
11-07-2009, 08:45
starlight encourages using FW and VDR...with proper notice. :) When the game is agreed to, things like FW/VDR are also agreed to, thus leveling the laying field. :)

Vaktathi
11-07-2009, 08:50
People deride forgeworld for a reason. It is a powergamers dream. You play one ****** who tries to buy victory and anyone else sporting forgeworld goodies becomes that ******. With my permission I will allow "some" forgeworld on the table and only in friendly games however, I take offense to anyone who shows up with a titan and expects me to be instantly cool with it. I mean I know people spend hours painting them and a small fortune on them, but the rules are not directly sanctioned so I see no obligation to let someone play with them against me or claim victory against me using them. As I said friendly games only.

Methinks you are getting Titans and Apocalypse confused with *all* forgeworld. The vast majority of Forgeworld stuff is not things like Titans and Superheavies.

There's a world of difference between bringing a Reaver Titan to the table, and taking Autocannon Chimera turrerts, or Quad Launcher Thudd guns, or Centaurs.

Also, what on earth do you mean by "sanctioned". They are produced by wholly owned and operated subsidiary operating out of the same building as GW HQ, have an "official warhammer 40,000 product" stamp right on the cover, etc. They don't allow them at GT's, but GT's aren't the arbiter of legality either, they are their own microcosm of 40k with their own rules and are not in any way supposed to decide what's legal or not outside such events (especially as rules for GT's vary from place to place and time to time even within the same year)


I don't mind people bringing FW stuff, in fact I wish they'd do it more often. As long as they aren't trying to play a Tigershark or Warhound in a normal game I'm fine with facing Firestorms, Autocannon Chimeras, Tetra's, Dreadclaws and the like.

mattjgilbert
11-07-2009, 08:59
I have no problem with it at all. In fact I'd rather people were able to use the stuff in their collections. Wolflord Havoc has a Renegade Militia army he regularly uses which is entirely a FW list. I'd draw the line at super-heavies and the like in normal games as those are designed for larger apoc style engagements but people are generally sensible and pick appropriate things for appropriate games.

Neilza
11-07-2009, 09:04
yeah FW stuff all good with me like they say veriaty is the spice of life

Bellygrub
11-07-2009, 12:19
I wouldn't mind at all. The only time I've ever had issue with anyone using rules was someone mixing the DA and C:SM books and that was only because it was confusing the hell out of me and reeked of beardyness.

EVIL INC
11-07-2009, 13:32
As I said earlier in the thread, I have no problems with facing "normal" stuff from forgeworld. Reguler battle tanks, variants ect. I would rather enjoy facing them. I would even enjoy facing the stuff like super heavies and titans if I am forwarned enough so that I know to bring something along with me that might stand a chance of damaging/destroying it rather then getting stuck with my face all comers list. With the biggies like those, you HAVE to tailor at least a little for them. With no foreknowledge of them coming till the start of the game, it is impossible to do so.
The issue I would have is if my opponant starts plopping super heavies and titans down across from me out of the blue. This is not confusing apocolypse with forgeworld, this is an opponant using super heavies and titans in reguler games.
The phrase "if they paid the money for it, they can use it no matter what" only goes so far. Taken to the extreme of using super heavies and titans in reguler games with the opponant not even having foreknowledge of what they might be facing and then saying "I paid for it, I can use it", pretty much says the richest person should always win as the whole idea of tactics and strategy goes right out the window then.

Omniassiah
11-07-2009, 14:03
Yeah, Titans, other superheavies, and flyers should never be allowed outside of apoc. I have all three personally and none of them work right in a regular game. Flyers are a Definite No anymore since they officially changed the rules from the forgeworld rules to the Apoc rules for them. They really do mess up the game.

Now the rest of the stuff I'm generally cool they aren't overpowered in any way. Now I will add that if you use Forgeworld points on your vehicles you use it on ALL of your vehicles. no picking and choosing the best.

usmarox
11-07-2009, 14:30
I'll play against anything, provided you can show me, on demand, a set of official rules for it - be that the BGB, codex, IA volume or whatever. I can see where the superheavy/flyer thing comes from, but I don't believe in changing your list on the day, so to me it's not applicable.

Cry of the Wind
11-07-2009, 15:18
I love my FW stuff and love seeing other people's stuff out there too. Most of my stuff can be used right out of the new IG Codex now anyway but really, if you think and Aquila Lander with and Inquisitor inside is going to destroy your army....well you should see the stuff the codex lets me take for that many points.

Edit: I might just have to build a Nob Biker army for that one time someone says no to my FW... "Ok you don't want to play against my oh so powerful Bombard or autocannon Chimera, just a second I need to switch armies..."

Grimtuff
11-07-2009, 16:45
People deride forgeworld for a reason. It is a powergamers dream. You play one ****** who tries to buy victory and anyone else sporting forgeworld goodies becomes that ******. With my permission I will allow "some" forgeworld on the table and only in friendly games however, I take offense to anyone who shows up with a titan and expects me to be instantly cool with it. I mean I know people spend hours painting them and a small fortune on them, but the rules are not directly sanctioned so I see no obligation to let someone play with them against me or claim victory against me using them. As I said friendly games only.

Um, lets pick an example not entirely at random here to prove how much FW overcost things. The IG Hydra. FW price: 200pts. New IG Codex Price: 75pts.

So, yeah...


I think in the average gamer mind if you say "forge world" they're going to assume a Super Heavy or a Flyer is involved

even if not they still ahve no idea, , I mean if a Tau player says he want's to bring in remora's to the game...well I don't have anythign but the first Imperial Armour book, so for all I know remora's are fast attack ST:10 ap:1 vehicles

everyone wants to be able to be ready for their opponent

And how exacly is this different from any other army with a codex you do not own? All your opponent has to do is show you their rules when asked.

Nexus Trimean
11-07-2009, 18:26
Forgeworld is fine in regular games, It means i get an extra satisfied smirk when i destroy your special tanks.

Titans, super heavies, Gargantuan creatures, Flyers, all need prior knowledge though. They do not fit Within the Constrains of a normal game, I Love to play with them all, but my take all corners list takes all codex corners, it needs tweaking to take on the big ones.

Earthbeard
11-07-2009, 18:36
I have and always will play people with forgeworld rules and stuff, why wouldn't I?

No actual reason not too, other than being an Ass.

Creeping Dementia
11-07-2009, 18:39
I depends on the situation. In a regular '40k night' game then ya thats fine. My only problem with them is the Rules for them are less accessable than normal Codex rules. I personally don't buy Forge World stuff unless its just cosmetic upgrades for my regular units, so naturally I'm not going to shell out half an armies worth of cash to get the IA books.

In tournements, I really would mind it if people used Forge World stuff, mainly for the rules accessability point made above. Bringing out units that most players haven't even heard of, let alone know the rules for, in a setting that is standardized, is a bit underhanded in my opinion, no matter what the point/effectiveness ratio is.

Dreachon
11-07-2009, 19:29
Bring it on, just let me know in advance so I can bring my own FW goodies, you want superheavies I'll bring my chaos titans.

evilsponge
11-07-2009, 19:43
I've got no problem with forgeworld models, just their terrible rule books. They're playtested even less than the main 40k books, and once your group starts using their books at becomes a game of money toys(whoever spends the most money gets the best units)

Mannimarco
11-07-2009, 22:07
how does it become a case of money toys?

ok so ill take my forgeworld models, ive spent a lot of money on them and suddenly i now have better units than random person A and B who are stuck using the codex units?

ive spent some money getting a couple of dreadclaw drop pods, theyr nice models (if a little pricy) person A complains i now have an unfair advantage because of my expensive toys, in the spirit of fairness i take them away and just use codex stuff, then he puts down a nob biker unit....yeah my forgeworld non codex models give me an advantage over that dont they? so i go to play person be who sticks a pair of lash princes on the board and a couple squads of obliterators and plague marines, wow i wish i had my cheesy broken overpowered dreadclaw drop pods to deal with that

a lot of forgeworld models are actually overcosted for what they do (see hydra) and there are more broken options in several codexes

Serebrate
11-07-2009, 22:12
I see a lot of people here complaining about fliers in Forgeworld.

How do you guys feel about Dreadclaws? As Chaos SM don't have drop pods, this seems the only fluffy way for pirates to enter play other than flanking.

I'm specifically talking about my red corsairs.

Archangel_Ruined
11-07-2009, 22:16
Indeed, I think the real issue is knowledge. If you take the time to tell your opponent exactly what you have and let them know the rules there's rarely an issue. It's a courtesy thing. The worst thing I've ever faced was a tyranid mega gribbly of some sort, I knew the guy who fielded it, I'd played him several times and he was a nice bloke. I spent ten minutes looking at the rules and rooting around my figure case and upping my points and heavy support. We played, it ate me alive, it was good fun. Forge world can be fun if you actually talk to your opponent, maybe that's where people are going wrong.

Archangel_Ruined
11-07-2009, 22:18
Dreadclaws are mean. An assault vehicle that deepstrikes can make people uneasy... I'd play you, I've faced them before. Mean...

Mannimarco
11-07-2009, 22:19
that tyranid mega gribbly would have been a gargantuan creature (probably a hierodule?) and the nid version of a superheavy only harder to kill

dreadclaws are great, id let you use them.......but only if you let me use mine lol

Archangel_Ruined
11-07-2009, 22:22
It was one of the gargantuans, I struggle to tell them apart when wincing...

Serebrate
11-07-2009, 22:23
Dreadclaws are mean. An assault vehicle that deepstrikes can make people uneasy... I'd play you, I've faced them before. Mean...

Well it's more expensive for a drop pod that can be immobilized by landing in difficult terrain (as opposed to not landing in it to begin with as in the case of regular drop pods). It's even unarmed. The only advantage is has it the ability to move after landing, which seems a bit silly to me. (taking off and then landing a short distance away)

Mannimarco
11-07-2009, 22:24
yeah they fall under the catagory of super heavy and have no place in 1500pts games, id have a problem with it, think most people would

@ serebrate: try using one as a taxi, oh the fun of dropping off some troops, flying across the baord and picking up some more

darker4308
12-07-2009, 00:56
I see a lot of the forgeworld supporters are giving me crap for comming out against your little toys and citing the example of the hydra. This is a complex point in that the new hydra at 75pts does not have the ability to shoot down a flyer. Hence, what you are paying ~125pts for is ability to threaten another forgeworld players flying monstrosity. I believe ... that the IG hydra still hits flyers on 6's as opposed to 4+ unless a new FAQ has been put out. Additionally, the hydra is an extreme example....find something better to make your points with.

Also, some armies were never ment to have some of the upgrades that forgeworld gives
them and as such the base troop point costs are designed to reflect this. Forgeworld represents experimental rules (as do the main rules as well). However, it is reasonable to assume that the forgeworld rules have been LESS tested such that gamebreaking is more likely to occur.

As for modeling or terrain, I have no issue with forgeworld being used. However, I will give people **** who try and show up with an IA book and try to claim that it's somehow just as fair as a GW army book. I'll play you ... and you may win or loose, but I would not let you count it for a win/loss record.

starlight
12-07-2009, 01:15
Wow...winning a game of toy soldiers is *that* important to you...? :(


That's too bad. :(

darker4308
12-07-2009, 01:37
Well what about people buying 700$ titans in order to secure victory .... everthing is relative as I have pointed out. I honestly don't really care if I win or loose. It's more that forgeworld has a greater potential for abusive play. My main point is I really don't see a problem with the "opponents consent" concept. If you have a clear problem with this other than mild gripes about some forgeworld being overcosted I would love to hear a reaction.

Fair play is what I have and always will support.

DaSpaceAsians
12-07-2009, 01:42
Well what about people buying 700$ titans in order to secure victory .... everthing is relative as I have pointed out. I honestly don't really care if I win or loose. It's more that forgeworld has a greater potential for abusive play. My main point is I really don't see a problem with the "opponents consent" concept. If you have a clear problem with this other than mild gripes about some forgeworld being overcosted I would love to hear a reaction.

Fair play is what I have and always will support.

The player who brings a titan to a non-apocalypse game without warning is one hell of a jerk and deserves a kick in the nutsack with a steel tipped boot.

starlight
12-07-2009, 01:58
No, a player who brings a Titan to a non-Apoc game lacks basic communication skills and likely needs help with their social skills and understanding of the game. Reacting in an aggressive and violent manner to someone like that is something a jerk would do... :eyebrows:

@ darker4308 - Titans belong in Apoc...where everyone knows it's possible to face Super Heavies. That's not an issue with Forgeworld, that's an issue with Super Heavies, which aren't allowed in regular games without opponent's consent. Baneblades aren't Forgeworld (anymore), but are Super Heavies...so you'd be okay facing Baneblades...?

Besides which, if I was in that boat (facing Titans/Superheavies) I'd happily roll out an all infantry IG list and watch them fall to massed fire... :evilgrin:

Occulto
12-07-2009, 02:04
Indeed, I think the real issue is knowledge. If you take the time to tell your opponent exactly what you have and let them know the rules there's rarely an issue. It's a courtesy thing. The worst thing I've ever faced was a tyranid mega gribbly of some sort, I knew the guy who fielded it, I'd played him several times and he was a nice bloke. I spent ten minutes looking at the rules and rooting around my figure case and upping my points and heavy support. We played, it ate me alive, it was good fun. Forge world can be fun if you actually talk to your opponent, maybe that's where people are going wrong.

Bingo. I think most people are reasonable when it comes to FW stuff (on both sides of the table). I don't know anyone who'd try to spring something on me that was OTT. Let's face it, if you've got a mega-gribbly, what's the point of inflicting it on someone who's obviously going to get pulverised by it? Pointless. Much better to talk it up and turn it into something memorable. After all, it's not every day that most people get a chance to face something like that.

All I ask is that my opponent let's me read the rules for what their FW stuff does (and drool over their big FW book if they've got it with them).

My problem with flyers is that I think their rules blow. Too clunky with interrupting the turn sequence, and considering how much they usually do (ie not much), not worth the hassle. The anti-aircraft rules seem like they're just bolted on as an afterthought.

It's a shame because they're really nice models, but they just don't "work" IMHO.

Col. Dash
12-07-2009, 02:53
No problems at all in normal games versus normal units. I have some of the battlesuits and tetras for my tau army as standard units. If someone bitches I find someone else to play. I spent my money, they arent overpowered, I should be able to play them, plain and simple. They may give me a few more options than the standard codex, but is it game breaking? Not in the least.

Vaktathi
12-07-2009, 03:10
I see a lot of the forgeworld supporters are giving me crap for comming out against your little toys and citing the example of the hydra. This is a complex point in that the new hydra at 75pts does not have the ability to shoot down a flyer. Hence, what you are paying ~125pts for is ability to threaten another forgeworld players flying monstrosity. If you've ever played against flyers, which I don't think you have, you'd realize they aren't that scary. And given that it now ignores bike and SMF cover saves, it's infinitely better for normal games than it used to be.


I believe ... that the IG hydra still hits flyers on 6's as opposed to 4+ unless a new FAQ has been put out. Additionally, the hydra is an extreme example....find something better to make your points with. The vanquisher. dropped 20pts and lost a stormbolter. Look at the Exterminator, got two more shots from its autocannons for a 10pt increase in the new codex. The Manticore when from S9 AP2 7"blast 4 shots to S10 AP4 D3 5"blast

Look at almost all the non-apoc stuff and you'll see it time and again is almost all like the Hydra.




Also, some armies were never ment to have some of the upgrades that forgeworld gives
them and as such the base troop point costs are designed to reflect this. I hardly think you can make a solid case of this. At this point you honestly are just sounding sore. Given how overcosted most non-apoc things are, I just don't see a case for that. Especially for stuff that was once in codex's and are now back in again after being IA for a while (Vanquishers, Griffons, etc)


Forgeworld represents experimental rules (as do the main rules as well). Where on earth are you getting that? Expansion rules sure, but experimental?



However, it is reasonable to assume that the forgeworld rules have been LESS tested such that gamebreaking is more likely to occur. Can you provide an example unit that isn't an superheavy or flyer that this is true for?



As for modeling or terrain, I have no issue with forgeworld being used. However, I will give people **** who try and show up with an IA book and try to claim that it's somehow just as fair as a GW army book. I'll play you ... and you may win or loose, but I would not let you count it for a win/loss record.If you care that much about a win/loss record, you probably aren't the type of person most people want to play.

Darkane
12-07-2009, 05:36
One thing I don't understand after reading through this thread is are there really folks out there worried about playing a game against someone using forgeworld models and all of a sudden they plop a titan or super heavy tank down on the table? Apparently this does happen I suppose but it shouldn't.

Using a super heavy unit or gargantuan creature requires a super heavy detachment which first of all, means you should be playing a game of 2500 points or more (unless you and your opponent agree to something lower of course) and second of all, the fact you are using extra detachments in your game means there should be some degree of planning done for that particular game in the first place. So one player can take that baneblade or tyranid gargantuan creature and the other if he doesn't have large units of his own can load up on extra heavy support, fast attack or elites.

My main point is there should never be any surprises going on if you're playing the game properly. Me personally I feel the use of large units is best left to apocalypse anyways because at 2500 points why not bump things up another 500 points and play an apoc game? Also as someone has pointed out already, while forgeworld's books and rules may be "inaccessible" to some there are those of us who do not own every single main codex either. I know I don't. So what do I do when facing up against an opponent with an army I'm unfamiliar with? I trust them to know their army's rules (people make mistakes though thats no biggie) and to also fill me in on things I might have questions about. Yeah crazy I know right?

Oh yeah and one final point, while its true that most tournaments disallow the use of forgeworld units there are those rare few that do allow them. Sometimes even allowing the use of super heavies and titans...not an important point but just throwing that out there. Makes things interesting in my opinion.

darker4308
12-07-2009, 05:43
Look if sit around and comb the IA books of which I currently have #1 to #5 there are certainly "some" choices in the non-superheavy, non-flier, non-titan area which can be used in an exploitive manner. Would you agree with this fact?

If this concept is correct. Then, my supposition about "asking consent" makes perfect sence in that it insulates players from exploitation outside a certain region.

Your entire concept is ... because some of these units have gone from IA to codex .... and because some of them are overcosted .... I shouldn't have to ask. Which is absolutely cool between friends. As i've said in a friendly game forgeworld is welcome. In competative play w/ prizes such as a store league it presents an x factor. If forgeworld is welcome what about a bell of lost souls codex? There is a line that every player has in their head about what makes a legitmate game. It's always been my view that we should be adults about these things.

Also if you want a simple proof of how much of a **** is legitimatly given about the IA books I would invite you to examine the large number of spelling and grammer errors that are present. Serious material is professionally edited. These arn't "On the Road".

starlight
12-07-2009, 05:53
No different than any other GW publication I own (although they've improved in the last year or so...).


I think you're wasting far too much time making a deal out of trivial issues in a game of toy soldiers...

darker4308
12-07-2009, 05:54
So if it's a trivial issue ... then it shouldn't be problem.

TimLeeson
12-07-2009, 05:59
hell yeah, I love playing against FW stuff - some of my favourite battles have been against those Vraksian Traitors, Elysians and Death korps - lots of fun! I didnt find them cheesey at all. If anything I found tehy were a little too easy to beat at times, but still fun, I usually let opponents that play those armies have slightly larger point-costs now to make them less over-costed.

starlight
12-07-2009, 06:04
So if it's a trivial issue ... then it shouldn't be problem.

Never thought it was. :) I'll play anything out of the FW books anytime...

Seriously, if anything FW tends to be overcosted on purpose, so it *isn't* a problem. :p

darker4308
12-07-2009, 06:14
Cute. Very cute.

CrownAxe
12-07-2009, 06:20
This thread has been pretty helpful for me and I didn't even post it. I've been considering running a Chaos Renegade force and I was mostly worried about people being touchy about it. Sounds like it should be fine, if a little underpowered. :p

Ironmonger
12-07-2009, 06:35
This thread is way past dead. Any more and the poor horse's corpse will start to fall apart before it can be resurrected!;)

Edonil
12-07-2009, 06:40
My gaming group is going to be making FW stuff standard for all our pick up games and tournaments, and any other events. No flyers, gargantuan creatures or superheavies unless in Apocalypse though. However, one thing that I'm probably going to request (and I can't really believe I am...I'm the one who would benefit most being one of two regular Sisters players) is that if you take something like a FW Rhino, you must take FW variants of all your tanks. Basically, if you replace one tank type in your codex with an IA variant, you have to replace them all. So if I want to run mech. Sisters with 35 point Rhinos, I need to use the IA Exorcist and Immolator, with the option costs as listed there (meaning Extra armor gets boosted to 15 points). Just to keep it sane, really. However, if all the FW I'm using is the Repressor, which isn't a variant it's a brand new tank for the codex, I can still use codex vehicle points.

starlight
12-07-2009, 06:44
There are those who believe the Repressor is a Rhino variant... :p

Edonil
12-07-2009, 06:48
Not the same thing...it's like an Immolator, LOL. Based on the same chassis, different tank. Not like the Land Raider, Land Raider Prometheus, Land Raider Helios, the Helios Whirlwind- that's what I meant by variants

Vaktathi
12-07-2009, 08:51
Look if sit around and comb the IA books of which I currently have #1 to #5 there are certainly "some" choices in the non-superheavy, non-flier, non-titan area which can be used in an exploitive manner. Would you agree with this fact? Probably far fewer so than exist in normal codex's. I can't think of anything off the top of my head. Tranatula sentry guns? what, deep striking BS2 AV10 artillery heavy bolters? Land Raider Helios that drops transport capacity to 6 for a Whirlwind launcher? An IG centaur 5man AV10 fast transport (for more pts than a Chimera now)? Autocannon chimera turrets? A Salamander Scout vehicle?



If this concept is correct. Then, my supposition about "asking consent" makes perfect sence in that it insulates players from exploitation outside a certain region. I'd say if you are willing to play against any of the more recent codex's, you have far more to fear from Nob Bikers or Lash-spam than IA units and are grossly overreacting.



Also if you want a simple proof of how much of a **** is legitimatly given about the IA books I would invite you to examine the large number of spelling and grammer errors that are present. Serious material is professionally edited. These arn't "On the Road".
They aren't much worse than many of the GW books, look at how often the reference pages are wrong (i.e. previous IG codex in one printing had hellhounds with AV13, the Ork codex has the dakkaguns wrong, etc). Almost all the typos are in the fluff sections in IA books.

DarkstarSabre
12-07-2009, 11:23
I see a lot of the forgeworld supporters are giving me crap for comming out against your little toys and citing the example of the hydra. This is a complex point in that the new hydra at 75pts does not have the ability to shoot down a flyer. Hence, what you are paying ~125pts for is ability to threaten another forgeworld players flying monstrosity. I believe ... that the IG hydra still hits flyers on 6's as opposed to 4+ unless a new FAQ has been put out. Additionally, the hydra is an extreme example....find something better to make your points with.

Also, some armies were never ment to have some of the upgrades that forgeworld gives
them and as such the base troop point costs are designed to reflect this. Forgeworld represents experimental rules (as do the main rules as well). However, it is reasonable to assume that the forgeworld rules have been LESS tested such that gamebreaking is more likely to occur.

As for modeling or terrain, I have no issue with forgeworld being used. However, I will give people **** who try and show up with an IA book and try to claim that it's somehow just as fair as a GW army book. I'll play you ... and you may win or loose, but I would not let you count it for a win/loss record.

So much hate and vitriol over something so very insignificant.

As has been pointed out a lot of the FW items are overcosted and underperform compared to their GW counterparts. They are there as fun fluff pieces to fill known gaps that exist and provide more opportunity for people. Chances are if it's not a superheavy, flyer or gargantuan creature your opponents are actually crippling themselves by taking it, much like the old VDR vehicles that people used to do.

You're right. Forgeworld lists and equipment aren't balanced. If anything they are far, far weaker than they should be for their points costs!

To me your entire line of thought sounds like sour grapes over some event you have yet to let everyone else in on.

And several items that were FW only are now making their way into the official lists. The new IG codex is full of them. The Space Marine codex has a few nods in there itself.

And if your win/loss ratio is that important to you....? Might I suggest playing another game? You may find you're better suited there.

EVIL INC
12-07-2009, 13:58
The point here is that people are trying to justify bringing super heavy, super heavy flyers and titans to reguler games without letting thier opponants know and justify it because GW owns FW and they shelled out the cash for those things. Those instances are what we are talking about. General "reguler" stuff (krieg, special turrets, heavy morters and battle tanks), almost everyone has no issue with so they are not at the heart of the conversation.
Remember that baneblades and shadowswords were designed for apoc in mind and if I remember right, they actually have the boxes labeled as such.

Cry of the Wind
12-07-2009, 14:48
However, I will give people **** who try and show up with an IA book and try to claim that it's somehow just as fair as a GW army book. I'll play you ... and you may win or loose, but I would not let you count it for a win/loss record.

Oh noes my win loss record! That attitude alone explains a lot here I think. If anyone is silly enough to spend the money that FW costs because they think it will give them an advantage are both missing the point and also going about it the wrong way. Spend the money for that conqueror turret on some nob bikers and you'll be much better off.

I guess my 10pts guardsmen with I4 are overpowered too... or my gun that shoots every other turn (sure itís a bigger blast but the IG codex has one that is cheaper and ignores cover!). Oh and my, the nerve of the guy who wants an indirect fire frag missile launcher on a sentinel!

Ok we get it, no one likes having super big things being tossed into a game without notice. That's why there is an Imperial Armour Apocalypse book telling us how to use the big guys in Apocalypse games where they belong. Anyone trying to argue otherwise (which is no one here or that I have ever encountered in person) should have their models taken away and given to me :D:p.

DarkstarSabre
12-07-2009, 14:53
To be frank? The original Gargantuan/Super Heavy/Flyer rules were designed around using them in standard 40k. But never in pick up games or hell, friendly games of any sort. If anything they should be for themed games or perhaps as special mission type games in campaigns....nothing more bar Apocalypse.

EVIL INC
12-07-2009, 15:39
The point is that people are arguing to take super heavies and titans into reguler non apoc games with no knowledge beforehand. That is the only time there is an issue. The varient turrets, sentinals, krieg and such are not where the problem is. The only time there is a problem is when there is a 1500 game and one player is expecting a reguler game and builds his army accordingly while the other players says "heh heh, The win is more important then the fun and plops a reaver titan onto the board (not sure of the exact points but you get the picture. "Reguler stuff" causes no problems.

Raven Down
12-07-2009, 15:47
Pretty simple for me,

- No Super Heavies or Flyers without my discrestion (I usaully will allow them anyway If I have brought my own along)

- Smaller things like Artillery pieces,New Turrets,etc are fine as long as the same allowance is passed to me.If someone disgrees against versing FW kits I'll just request a new opponent.

My group is very FW friendly even Comp wise, 80% of the group field something from FW

self biased
12-07-2009, 16:38
+++ achievement unlocked! +++

darker4308 has unlocked the 'trolling with style' award.

good game, sir.

Angel of the Black Parade
12-07-2009, 17:10
I think this thread is more dead than the Dodo.
To summarize:
Using things like Krieg are fine because they arent particularly overpowered.

Give advance warning if you're going to bring Titans, Super Heavys + Flyers.

I like the idea about using fw variant prices too.

Thud
12-07-2009, 17:14
I rarely play against FW stuff, so I 'd have no problem going against it. In fact, I'd encourage it.

Only thing is, I'd like some kind of advance notification if I'm going up against a Warlord Titan. Other than that, I'm cool with most stuff.

self biased
12-07-2009, 17:16
yeah. seriously, i don't think i've ever seen 40k general more or less agree on a given topic like this. we should archive or sticky the thread for posterity or something.

Norsehawk
12-07-2009, 21:10
Simple personal rule:

"Nothing that flies is gargantuan or has structure points, without proper notice."

Omniassiah
13-07-2009, 00:10
To be frank? The original Gargantuan/Super Heavy/Flyer rules were designed around using them in standard 40k. But never in pick up games or hell, friendly games of any sort. If anything they should be for themed games or perhaps as special mission type games in campaigns....nothing more bar Apocalypse.

Also the superheavies/flyers we're also all meant for games over 3000 pts(as Forgewrold repeatively has said). The smaller stuff was always pointed usually a bit on the high side for normal games.

Wut?
13-07-2009, 01:05
a point on "most cash wins" mars titan costs about £650. for that you could buy in blitster packs 80 space marines with lascannons.
OR
36 tau broadside battlesuits

point is, you can outclass them for less.

self biased
13-07-2009, 01:26
http://ui31.gamespot.com/1214/deadhorsebeat_2.gif

bah. images are turned off.

EVIL INC
13-07-2009, 01:57
a point on "most cash wins" mars titan costs about £650. for that you could buy in blitster packs 80 space marines with lascannons.
OR
36 tau broadside battlesuits

point is, you can outclass them for less.
Point is, not everyone can afford to go out and buy80 blisters of las cannons. If we could, how many can uou put into a take all comers 1500 point army list? I say a take all comers list because remember what we are talking about is people just plopping titans and such down onto the table in reguler non-apoc games where the victom is expecting to face a reguler army that is at worst tailered to match them and are totally surprised to see the titans and such.

Mannimarco
13-07-2009, 02:36
remember that its not a forgone conclusion if sombody takes a titan at low levels (its just not nice) we had this one kid who always wanted to play his titan in a game, we rarely played apocalypse so said yeah sure you can use it agaisnt me, we're playing 1750 points

so i drop a 10 man nurgle termy squad next to him and for the next 3 turns my powerfist and chainfist armed champions go to work on its ankles

yeah i lost the game but killed a titan so it can be done with a take all comers list

MajorWesJanson
13-07-2009, 02:49
a point on "most cash wins" mars titan costs about £650. for that you could buy in blitster packs 80 space marines with lascannons.
OR
36 tau broadside battlesuits

point is, you can outclass them for less.

Depending on the table size. A Warhound armed with a plasma and a pair of turbolasers, with manuevering room, can wipe all of those out easily. Plasma has a 72" range for rapid fire, and 96" range full power. Turbolasers are 96". Railguns are 72" and Lascannons are only 48". Warhounds can also move 12" and fire both weapons at seperate targets. Broadsides can move up to 6" and fire as BASS, and marines can't move and fire at all.

750 points will buy you 3 five-man devastator squads with 4 las cannons each with enough for a sponsonless autocannon pred.
750 will also buy you 3 triple BASS teams.

Titans and superheavies will tear up smaller opponents. That is why you need advance warning, which in normal games is handily provided by the requirement for Gargantual creatures, war machines, and flyers to take up a second FOC, which the opponent must agree on.

unheilig
13-07-2009, 05:25
"tournament play" can take a long ******* walk down a short pier.

forgeworld, apocalypse, planetstrike... have fun.

just been cool with your opponent's and talk about it first. if they aren't cool with it... maybe they aren't worthy opponents.

Warlord Nazgred
13-07-2009, 10:49
what do you guys think about using the deamon lords and the forgeworld tau battle suits and drones

zetaplus
13-07-2009, 10:57
what do you guys think about using the deamon lords and the forgeworld tau battle suits and drones

Use it all, really. I'm sick of repro/counts as/dodgy conversion people slamming FW. Like crappy 35mm tall metal models dipped in pink paint counting as daemon princes, etc.

Mannimarco
13-07-2009, 11:57
daemon lords probably shouldnt be used at low levels, after all they are gargantuan creatures that are harder to kill than a titan (cost more points as well, except zaryknel)

scabbiethrax is t9 ad had 8 wounds, yeah an army including him will be small and he will never make his points back but he will easily dominate the board

an'grath - a ton of attacks, very high strength, good toughness and can move 24 inches a turn? nothing at low levels can even touch him

zaryknel - again, huge amount of high strength attacks, most units will be lucky to last more than one round against her (or any of the lords)

battlesuit variants and drones are ok at low point level games

Wut?
13-07-2009, 14:05
a point on "most cash wins" mars titan costs about £650. for that you could buy in blitster packs 80 space marines with lascannons.
OR
36 tau broadside battlesuits

point is, you can outclass them for less.

the point i was making is that forge world is not the best for outpricing your oppoents, as for that you could get other cheesy units like nob bikers for far cheaper.

what you dont seem to understand is that if somone has spent that much money on somthing to not even use in apocalypse then who is the real winner?

Faeslayer
13-07-2009, 19:15
Forgeworld stuff is beautiful. I have no problem facing it or using it. :)

I did go up against some forgeworld flyers at a GW store event once; don't know if we were doing it right, but I couldn't get a shot on anything, since I didn't have any anti-air guns. That was not so fun.

ServanoTomasin
13-07-2009, 21:41
Forgeworld stuff is beautiful. I have no problem facing it or using it.
With you 100%. If someone has spent 30-40 quid on a set of rules, I'm all for letting them use the rules. The same goes for models - and quite a few (like my personal favourite the Atlas)will have little (if any) impact on the battlefield. (unless the mission requires something like an Atlas) Things like the chimera AC-turret are nice models, but I have yet to see a single AC-armed chimera be the sole winning unit in a game.
The only problem I have is superheavies - tank & flyer - irregardless of whether they are GW or FW.
I will happily play against normal flyers - tank-busting fighter-bombers are very fun to try and shoot down. But when monsters like Marauders arrive, things get..."interesting". And if you have no/limited AA...say goodbye to your army...

Brother Loki
14-07-2009, 13:48
@EVIL INC. You keep suggetsing that people are wanting to play titans and such without opponents consent. Where? I haven't seen one person in this thread argue for that. People are saying you shouldn't need to jump through hoops to use an autocannon turret on a chimera, or use a repressor in a witch hunters force.

For the record, I positively welcome forgeworld stuff. I've got some tetras for my Tau which I need to put together, as well as a bunch of battlesuits (though they're mostly standard rules.)

EVIL INC
14-07-2009, 14:00
Throughout this thread.
As you have seen, I have no issues with reguler stuff. The only issue I have is the super heavies and titans and such out of the blue in reguler games with no foreknowledge.

self biased
14-07-2009, 14:24
then stop inviting Mousolini over to play 40k.

EVIL INC
14-07-2009, 14:50
then stop inviting Mousolini over to play 40k.
LOL, but he always brings such great food for snacktime in the middle of the game.

SPYDER68
14-07-2009, 14:54
First off.

If somone Tried to use FW rules for replacments for a unit a codex already has to gain an advantage..

For example if my rhino costs 50.. so i use the FW version to have 35 pt rhino's.. I would not play this person at all.

If the player wanted to use a FW unit.. I would read what it does then decide, if its a game for the heck of it sure.. If i want to test a list to buy or a tourney, No.. If i think the rules are off for the unit.. No again.

Around here we stick to standard Rules, and no one uses the FW books.

Awilla the Hun
14-07-2009, 15:05
I do when the enemy doesn't tell me.

e.g. he uses this weirdo Chaos Lord who can apply fleet to a massive unit of Khorne Chosen Terminators, and he doesn't tell me beforehand.

Giganthrax
14-07-2009, 15:07
Nah, I wouldn't let my opponent use Forgeworld rules in normal games.

We could agree to use Forgeworld rules for a game or two, for entertainment purposes, but if we wanna play a proper battle, then only regular codex rules apply.

Faeslayer
14-07-2009, 16:01
With you 100%. If someone has spent 30-40 quid on a set of rules, I'm all for letting them use the rules. The same goes for models - and quite a few (like my personal favourite the Atlas)will have little (if any) impact on the battlefield. (unless the mission requires something like an Atlas) Things like the chimera AC-turret are nice models, but I have yet to see a single AC-armed chimera be the sole winning unit in a game.
The only problem I have is superheavies - tank & flyer - irregardless of whether they are GW or FW.
I will happily play against normal flyers - tank-busting fighter-bombers are very fun to try and shoot down. But when monsters like Marauders arrive, things get..."interesting". And if you have no/limited AA...say goodbye to your army...

I'm foggy on the flyer rules- you don't need special AA units to shoot down flyers (like fighta-bommas)?

Mannimarco
14-07-2009, 16:06
no you need to roll a 6 to hit it, AA mounts let you use your ballistic skill, remember when measuring to the flyer you add 12' to the range

so even the that flyer is 12 inches away from one of your squads on the board you add 12, that flyer is now 24 inches away

ServanoTomasin
14-07-2009, 17:40
But, if IIRC in apoc rules, all pintle-mounts (and bolt-on shootas for you orks) are counted as AA mounted.
Otherwise, you better hope your rolls are incredibly good if you want to take aircraft down. So yes, it is possibe to bring down a super-heavy flyer, I just don't like them because of the 3 structure points.

Like I said, providing its not a super-heavy (tank, plane, titan, etc) I will happily play with or against FW in any game. Using the FW vanquisher rules -whilst it gives me a better, longer range, it puts me at a disadvantage pointwise.

Da_Killa
15-07-2009, 07:49
at our local gw they have a rule, if you have the rules for it you can use it (even super heavies and flyers in normal games)

Alx_152
15-07-2009, 08:15
I would not mind, but I would like to know before if it involves titans, superheavies, gargantuans or flyers.

Shadowphrakt
15-07-2009, 12:04
I'm prefectly happy to let people use FW models in games. I mean, I use the FW Land Raider variant, and everyone I've played it against has been cool with it. Tbh, Edinburgh is pretty laid back with FW models - no-one realyl has a problem with them. However, occasiionally I've started a game, and then had my opponent leave becasue I place down a Thunderfire cannon, complaining that its "Broken and udercosted". Uh huh. Right.

Vaktathi
15-07-2009, 17:09
I think people also need to keep in mind that, at least for Superheavies, using them outside of Apocalypse requires a 2nd FoC, meaning they really aren't able to be fielded in normal games unless your opponent is also willing to give you a 2nd FoC, meaning throwing out 18 Obliterators and the like becomes possible.

odmiller
15-07-2009, 17:41
In general I have no problem with FW, but there are two issues I see arising when playing with FW rules is brought up locally.

I think the biggest issue with forgeworld in our area is lack of knowledge/exposure. There is no GW in the state, and most players have never even seen the IA books, let alone flipped through them. People have seen the FW models in apoc games, but that's usually using the GW Apoc rules for them, not the FW ones. So when someone shows up with a model you haven't seen, and a ruleset you didn't even know existed, it's a little understandable if there's some skepticism about using it.

The other issue, as has been touched on above, is when players "trade out" a codex cost or item for the forgeworld version because of cost/rules. I don't have a problem with opponents using a FW model and rules not listed in the codex, but "selective" selection is basically cheating as far as I'm concerned.

WLBjork
17-07-2009, 07:12
If it's not Superheavy/Gargauntan or a Flyer, it's allowed. No ifs, no buts.

If there's a conflict between FW and Codex, Codex wins out.

Example: I'm planning a DKoK army. The basic list comes from the IG codex, with additional limits from the FW list (e.g no Heavy Weapons in tactical squads). Only if it's not available in the codex do the FW points/rules get used (e.g. Thudd Gun).]

Edit: And Conquerors are now Erradicators :D

mughi3
17-07-2009, 12:22
Since GW has considered non-superheavy/flyer FW units legal to use without permission since.....what 2002, why should anybody have a problem. they are afterall just variant desings of standard units. usually overcosted but add variety to the game.


Say i bring my land raider prometheus to the table. it first of all has restricted deployment as a dedicated transport for a few specific units and i loose the las cannons to take more twin linked heavy bolters.
They are not OMFG411!!! super heavy bolters of doom....they are just S5 AP 4 heavy 3 twin linked heavy bolters like any other twin linked heavy bolter mount in the game....and my land raider looses the ability to kill other tanks for it.


I think sowhere along the way some players got the crazy idea and have perpetuated it that using FW units is somehow overpowered or underhanded since they are not in the "normal" codex releases.

akinokurisu
17-07-2009, 12:41
I would totally allow anyone playing against me to bring a FW model. I'd love it if they had fliers or superheavies, as long as our game was played at reasonable points. Heck, I'm in favour of chucking out the Force Org chart if someone feels like it.