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xsamx
11-07-2009, 10:48
I recently played a campaign match against a high elf player who was fielding 3x lvl 2 mages and Teclis. I know this is potent, but my WoC magic heavy army didnt stand a chance. He had the ability to get 2 D3 extra power dice in his magic phase and d3 extra dispel in my magic phase, as well as automatically taking one of my power dice from my pool for his dispel pool every turn. This coupled with Teclis ability to cast irresistable force on any double and ignore first miscast of the game, plus the fact his mages were in a regiment of swordmasters and a regiment of phoenix guard (both with MR (2 and 1 respectively)).

This along with some good rolling meant he had approximately 11 dispel dice for every one of my magic phase (i had 10 power dice) and approx 14 power dice a turn vs my meagre 6 dispel dice!

I lost both my units of knights to teclis casting the high lvl lore of metal spell with irresistable force on each unit in consecutive turns (1 regiment in 1 turn the next in the following!) my book of secrets was prevented from being used by the lore of gold spell or whatever it is so my power dice dropped by 1 (leaving me with just 9 per phase).

Whatever this insane quantity of irresistable magic didnt kill, his bolt throwers did. I managedd to chase 1 unit of spearmen off the board...

As this was a campaign match i was unable to tailor my army to combat such a beast, it was a 2000pt battle


so, im curious, what do you guys do against such insane magic/ranged abilities? This was my first battle against high elves as im still quite new, but it was disastorous, the worst game of Warhammer ive played (fantasy and 40k).

What would you guys have done against this kind of high elf army? If you're curious i was fielding

2x12 warriors slaanesh, 1 gw and 1 ahw both with shields
10 marauders w/ flails
5 marauder horse (ran off first turn from bolt thrower)
5 knights nurgle
5 knights tz. with blasted standard (what a waste of points this has been)
5 hounds
1 lvl 2 nurgle w/ book of secrets + dispel scroll
1 lvl 2 tzeen w/ disc and 3+ ward vs missiles, blood curdling roar
1 lvl 4 nurgle on daemonic steed w/ infernal puppet

he had:

teclis w/ lore of metal
3x lvl 2 mages, i think 1 lore of metal 2 high magic unsure of magic items...
13 phoenix guard
12 swordmasters
10 spearmen
12 archers
2 bolt throwers

I really am curious if i even stood a chance here!

Also, he took first turn...

grhino
11-07-2009, 12:54
There is hardly anything you can do against such a high elf army. Not very sporting of the opponent to take an army like this when there are definately more exiting ways to deal with a chaos force using HE's. Take out Teclis - anything in CC against him will most likely kill him as his save in non-existent... if you can't reach him: good luck!

Gaargod
11-07-2009, 13:29
How'd he get 11 dispel dice on average?
2 Basic, 3 from mages, 2 from teclis + d3 from Teclis + Annulian crystal (steal dispel dice) = 11 max.

And that high elf player was spending a minimum of 920pts (that's just Teclis, 3 lv2s and the crystal, probably more like 1000pts). With another 45pts on Banner of Arcane protection (magic res 2) and Amulet of Fire (magic res 1 + immune to fire). His 2 units were probably about 1500-1550pts in total. Eggs and basket...

If you had managed to get anything to them, he'd have probably lost immediately. Your disc wizard should have been able to take out a bolt thrower turn 2. If you'd have had less warriors and more knights, you could have reached him on turn 2 in general, and stood a better chance. Even marauder horsemen could probably have dealt with his spearmen and archers.


Basically he took a very abusive army, but it does have its weaknesses.

xsamx
11-07-2009, 14:04
How'd he get 11 dispel dice on average?
2 Basic, 3 from mages, 2 from teclis + d3 from Teclis + Annulian crystal (steal dispel dice) = 11 max.

And that high elf player was spending a minimum of 920pts (that's just Teclis, 3 lv2s and the crystal, probably more like 1000pts). With another 45pts on Banner of Arcane protection (magic res 2) and Amulet of Fire (magic res 1 + immune to fire). His 2 units were probably about 1500-1550pts in total. Eggs and basket...

If you had managed to get anything to them, he'd have probably lost immediately. Your disc wizard should have been able to take out a bolt thrower turn 2. If you'd have had less warriors and more knights, you could have reached him on turn 2 in general, and stood a better chance. Even marauder horsemen could probably have dealt with his spearmen and archers.


Basically he took a very abusive army, but it does have its weaknesses.

Yea i feel my inexperience definately didnt help, i should have put my knights in the centre and charged straight at his two main units. I did try to take out one of the bolt throwers with my disc sorc but poor rolling resulted in only one wound on the machine itself. More knights would also have been beneficial.

In regards to the dispelling it was probably 11 total then, i was only giving estimates as I didnt ask him about it, just what i saw in game.

Condottiere
11-07-2009, 18:56
Your opponent definitely had a cheesy list.

Your options would be turn your army full over to magic with Special Characters to equalize Teclis.

Or attempt to get into CC ASAP. The Hellcannon should cause some carnage on the other side.

Aranel
11-07-2009, 19:25
Are you allowed to change a couple of marks? If so take as many Tz mages as possible and hope you can cast pandamonium. TBH, not much can stand a chance against that. I take a Teclis army to the GT and the only things that really worry me are gunlines (Dwarf and Empire) and Hotek Dark Elf armies. Its very harsh taking an army like that in a friendly game.

PeG
11-07-2009, 20:59
One of the main problems with WoC is that warriors are often to slow to do anything useful against tourny armies except for character bunkers and for that purpose marauders are cheaper although they suffer if the enemy charges them which is usually less of a problem with warriors.

With magic you should either go magic light (lvl 1 scroll caddies or items that gives extra dispel dice or + to dispel etc) or magic heavy which usually means a lvl 4 + 3 lvl 2.

In this particular scenario the best would probably have been magic light (maybe 2 lvl 1) and as many fast units as possible. Then go straight for Teclis and the other mages. Knights usually do ok against bolt throwers unless HE are really lucky with the dice.

Also I usually do quite good with the puppet+ tongue combo although I havent tried it against Teclis. If you are really lucky you can kill a mage (hopefully Teclis if he already had a previous miscast) or at least make him lose his favorite metal spell.

Levett
11-07-2009, 21:08
Hey Sam its Lev.

Nicky's army is a pain, but i've beaten it simply by rushing everything I have down the center of the board. Eventually it crumbles, but you need to be super aggressive and avoid the Pheonix Guard, as they are a pain to kill with the 4+ ward save.

Even though I was over 3000 points clear at the top of the campaign / tournament, I've now withdrawn from it due to the entire thing being totally shambles. I've been drawn against Bens daemons two weeks in a row, and both weeks he's chickened out..... and got away with it!!! cant be arsed with that! >:|

If you want I can go over your list with you on thursday at the store for a bit??

Chaos Undecided
11-07-2009, 21:32
Not a fan of using special characters myself but you could always try using Vilitch, he can really play merry hell with your opponents magic phase with his dice stealing ability. He needs protecting though because he's just Chaos lord otherwise with no fancy toys outside his spellcasting.

Just double checking out of curiousity you talk about Teclis casting irresistably with any double but he still has to make the casting value of the spell on these rolls as well, its not like the regular double 6 that can succeed even without reaching the casting value. Be annoying to get cheated on top of playing a cheesed out list

xsamx
11-07-2009, 22:03
Hey Sam its Lev.

Nicky's army is a pain, but i've beaten it simply by rushing everything I have down the center of the board. Eventually it crumbles, but you need to be super aggressive and avoid the Pheonix Guard, as they are a pain to kill with the 4+ ward save.

Even though I was over 3000 points clear at the top of the campaign / tournament, I've now withdrawn from it due to the entire thing being totally shambles. I've been drawn against Bens daemons two weeks in a row, and both weeks he's chickened out..... and got away with it!!! cant be arsed with that! >:|

If you want I can go over your list with you on thursday at the store for a bit??

hey lev,

Yea, in hinesight i should have just put my knights in the centre and rushed at his swordmaster unit, and maybe tried to squeeze off a fleshy abundance on them for survivability. My lack of knowledge of just how powerful his magic was meant i had no idea just how quickly it would destroy me if i didn't get into combat quickly.

I've looked at vilitch and he does seem pretty good for magic defense, but i feel to get your points worth out of him you'd have to go very magic heavy to ensure his offensive capabilities got through.

I'd definately like to take you up on that offer though, thanks. I've been looking over things and making minor changes, but would be excellent to sit down with you and go over everything now ive had some experience gaming.

Regarding the campaign, I was actually looking forward to watching the battle between the two of you myself!

I think the biggest irony ive found with WoC is that i envisaged playing them as a close combat juggernaut, but didnt really consider just how hard it is to get them into combat in the first place! I find the lack of exalted heroes/lords in 2000 point games quite disparaging as they're awesome models and awesome fluff/on paper, but experience so far seems you need the magic to ensure your army gets to the foe with enough survivors to deal any damage!

*EDIT* I feel like i should remind people that it is a campaign and NOT a friendly, it is also for vouchers, so i am not angry or annoyed at people taking competative lists, infact i was expecting it. I am just curious to know what could be done vs such a list and whether this is a common sight/easily beaten if you know how!

sulla
12-07-2009, 21:02
There is hardly anything you can do against such a high elf army.

I don't agree. 4 khorne chariots could probably defeat this army without any help from the other 1400+pts of your force. 2 in each combat vs a block should resoundingly beat an infantry block each combat phase and woe betide teclis if he's in the front rank of any of the units when the chariots hit home because he will be killed for sure.

ConfuciusCubed
13-07-2009, 08:16
How effective would a dwarf army be against this kind of attack? My friend is learning the High Elves and I know dwarves extra dispel dice but their slow nature would make them frustratingly inefficient pounding their way to Teclis.

Witchblade
13-07-2009, 15:08
Dwarfs could outgun that list with ease, although you would need at least a decent magic defence. Shoot cannons at his bolt throwers and gun down his infantry with small arms.

nickyfoo
19-07-2009, 10:40
Mate you should of just rushed me indeed I have a lot of magic but it is not that hard to beat. You get to my mages i pretty much loose I have to keep my mages safe or that's it I used it as it is fun to use with all the magic and not knowing if it will go well or not most of the time not
mist casting with teclis 3 times in a row in the same magic phase sounds cool huh should of just ran lol. Really thou was not much of a chance with that list as you went magic heavy and HE have the best magic defense in the game can even stop demons magic but they are beatable hence my worst loss ever against goblins which fear me lol we will play again when the TOURNAMENT is over and I wont be using that list as it has a lot of magic but more times than not sucks I only used as I had just read giant slayer and teclis seemed so cool in the book he not so cool in the game thou killing 3 goblins in 6 turns then dieing to a bolthower in turn 6 sucks lol anyway I will play you with my normal list next time much more fun to play but I don't think it will be easy as HE do rock woop
woop . and i am fully aware that i have to meet the casting value so i belive there was not cheating on top of my cheesed out list thanks also i dont think i would of lost that quickly if i had got in to cc as i do have the hardest combat unit sm very hard unit also pg they will be there long enough for some support so i belive that some of this stuff on here is a little bit rubish and to the even mh could do it dont be silly mh would probs lose to archers well will play you soon sam in a non TOURNAMENT game and i will be glad to help defeat the HE and other armies if you want. To take 4 chariots is gd in this game but as cant chnage ya list in a TOURNAMENT that would of been no good huh.
and lev i pretty sure we have only drawn and how come no ones asked how to beat your list lol on here o wait you cant lol :):)

Nu Fenix
19-07-2009, 14:32
EDIT: Also, in regards to dealing with him magically, what about having Third Eye of Tzeentch, and using High Magic back against him?

Also, removed question about Teclis and IF - Learnt to read my book and forums better ;)

King_Pash
19-07-2009, 16:41
In my opinion, this list isn't that cheesy. Our local gaming club fields some very hard-core lists and this would be about average. Still, if I was inexperienced then facing this would not be fun.

Speaking as a HE player myself, the main weakness in this list is CC. Since Chaos excel in combat anyway I would probably move in as fast as I can to the Elf lines. I'm surprized the magic did that much damage to be honest. It never is that devastating in my experience.

Ascendant Conscience
21-07-2009, 02:15
I run a HE list similar to the one posted and I never seem to do that much damage, although this could be down to plain bad luck. As for Teclis, at the end of the day he is 475 points and a pathetic toughness 2. Get him in combat and you've got easy points.

AC

sroblin
21-07-2009, 22:31
I disagree that you will generally need the maximum number of spellcaster levels; 2x Levels 2s and a Lvl 4 is quite decent magic-heavy. It's just not uber-magic heavy, and that HE army is also fielding the most cost-effective and powerful caster-SC ever. So he was going to outgun you magically, no matter what. I think its better not to go as far as he has, though, because his actual battle line is pathetic. A unit of 10 spearmen, come on!

Chaos spellcasting is actually quite robust in general, but the Lore of Metal basically as the Anti-Chaos spell of doom in the form of Spirit of the Flame.

A minor nitpick, you should replace the additional hand weapons on the Chaos Warriors. Great Weapons or halberds are more deadly or as good against 80% of opponents, statistically. The remaining 20%, you're still going to beat handly with Great Weapons or Halberds anyway. Unless, perhaps, you have to worry about fighting lots of zombie hordes : )

Drachen_Jager
21-07-2009, 22:47
This is why special characters should be treated as "special". Unless the game is over 3k or your opponent agrees to the special character it simply shouldn't be used.

This is all IMO of course.

sroblin
21-07-2009, 23:13
This is why special characters should be treated as "special". Unless the game is over 3k or your opponent agrees to the special character it simply shouldn't be used.

I'm not at all a regular special character player myself, but to be fair I think a lot of books are full of special characters that are well balanced or even underpowered. The things, the overpowered ones are the those that get fielded by the most people, sadly...

Teclis is definitely one of the more exceptionally powerful ones.

Unuhexium
22-07-2009, 15:08
This is why special characters should be treated as "special". Unless the game is over 3k or your opponent agrees to the special character it simply shouldn't be used.

This is all IMO of course.

Amen to that! I miss the days when SCs could only be used with opponents concent. Luckily SCs are outlawed in most tournaments over here and my gaming group has agreed not to use them at all. Makes for far more friendly and challenging games instead of bashing each other in the head with Mr. Named-hero-of-doom.