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rabblerouser
11-07-2009, 14:48
Does anyone have any pictures of what the ultrasmurfs looked like during the great crusade and the heresy? I am working on an army using mostly mk2-4 suits and wanted to paint them up like veterans (white helmets) because I like the look. But I don't think during the crusade they were organized as companies so this color scheme probably was not used.

Any thoughts?

Maidel
11-07-2009, 15:59
They were organised into companies and then into grand companies (estimated at 300-400 marines)

Veterans didnt exist in the same way - logically because they hadnt been around long enough to evolve that idea.

As far as I know - the ultramarines didnt change their colour scheme at all - I would just avoid apparant 'chapter' markings such as white helmets.

rabblerouser
11-07-2009, 16:10
Yeah but I really like the look of white helmets... *sigh*
I guess it's not fluffy

=Angel=
11-07-2009, 16:15
Paint them with white helmets.
The legion was organised into chapters of 1000 or so men .
Declare that your men are veterans or somesuch.

Do what you want- the codex astartes wasnt written then- robute was doubtless throwing a few ideas around- who's to say he didnt grant the 1st company veterans of the 3rd chapter white helmets after a significantly daring assualt on an ice world?

Especially in pre heresy- you can do what you like.

Maidel
11-07-2009, 16:15
Yeah but I really like the look of white helmets... *sigh*
I guess it's not fluffy

I dont think its ever been said that they DIDNT have white helmets...

After wall, guilliman did write the codex astartes - chances are he wrote it on what he learnt from his legion - therefore, chance are that most of the things he put down already existed within his legion - therefore, maybe the white helmets were already being used.

KtL
11-07-2009, 16:16
The Great Crusade went on for nearly 200 years before the Heresy. Veterans could have been there in some form.

Remember that the Legions were Legion - Chapter - Company in their organization, though the Chapter title varied from Legion to Legion.

Insignium Astartes said the Ultramarines number 250,000 at the height of the Heresy. The Horus Heresy art books give a lower number that I can't recall right now but it was still in the high 5 figures.

Either way you can easily justify white helmets and have them be fluffy.

Maidel
11-07-2009, 16:25
Remember that the Legions were Legion - Chapter - Company in their organization, though the Chapter title varied from Legion to Legion.


Well - very much depending on which bit of fluff you read


its either - legion, chapter, company

OR

Legion, great company, company.

Whether a great company is = to a chapter is debatable. All of the first 5 HH books used great companies and didnt mention chapter at all. Also, a great company is lead by a captain and has other captains below him - so, no chapter masters there. (eg - abbadon was only a captain - but he was second to horus - so no chapter masters in the sons of horus. Same goes for the emperors children - accept they called them 'lord commanders' - so again, no chapter masters)

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
11-07-2009, 16:33
I the "Horus Heresy: Collected Visions" book has them numbering over 250,000. I think it was around 400,000. They were by far the largest Legion due to strong recruitment and low casualties.

Do what you want with them. The Ultramarines appeared nearly the same in the Heresy. With a legion as large as they were, I am sure there must be some Companies that used white helmuts for some reason or another.

Maidel
11-07-2009, 16:49
I am sure there must be some Companies that used white helmuts for some reason or another.

Ran out of blue paint? :D

rabblerouser
11-07-2009, 16:59
Ran out of blue paint? :D

I can live with that... at the height of the heresy one of the worlds producing ultramarine pigment falls under influence of chaos causing the great blue paint shortage and forcing ultramarines to leave their helmets primer white

Leftenant Gashrog
11-07-2009, 20:36
I'm planning on doing some heresy era Ultramarines using the RT MkVII scheme (see below) it was presented at the time as a post-heresy scheme, but the concept sketches were published in WD346 and they were clearly meant to be heresy era (which explains why the 10th company lacks a colour - the colours were made up for the 9-company heresy era system in WD126)

RT MkVII scheme:
blue armour
chest eagle white or blue
pad trims white or blue
(marines) right forearm & gauntlet = company colour (finished article same as now, concept sketches had red & green the other way round, and beige in place of blue)
same squad markings then as now, but also:
(marines) right shoulderpad = light blue for tactical, dark blue/purple for assault*, yellow for devastator*
helmet:
white for 1st company (as opposed to specifically denoting veteran)
red for sergeant
yellow for lieutenant*
black for captain*

* info from the sketches not included in the RT article, which only covered tactical squads

Maidel
11-07-2009, 21:02
erm - im really confused...

For almost all of rogue trader they used mk6 armour - mk 7 was only introduced later towards second edition.

world in grey
12-07-2009, 00:24
chest eagle white or blue


sorry but thought it was only the Emporers Children who were allowed to wear the eagle on their armour?

pookie
13-07-2009, 14:28
erm - im really confused...

For almost all of rogue trader they used mk6 armour - mk 7 was only introduced later towards second edition.

He probably means the MKVI (6) - as the article he refers to shows Beakies not MKVII (7)


sorry but thought it was only the Emporers Children who were allowed to wear the eagle on their armour?

it was them who displayed it first as a honour, nothing to stop it being used by others later in the Great Crusade, and certainly by the time of the HH it will have been a unified symbol representing the Loyalist forces ( at least thats how you can interprite it )

Urath
13-07-2009, 14:41
The Legion possessed around roughly 30,000 marines (if 5th Ed. is anything to go by) organised into Chapters, and then companies. The colours were a lighter blue, and a yellow-gold. I suppose squad leader/veteran status would be a white helmet.

Forlorn
13-07-2009, 15:48
I can live with that... at the height of the heresy one of the worlds producing ultramarine pigment falls under influence of chaos causing the great blue paint shortage and forcing ultramarines to leave their helmets primer white

I find this very un-fluffy and lame. Really? Only 1 world could produce blue pigment so they left their helmets primed white? :eyebrows:



who's to say he didnt grant the 1st company veterans of the 3rd chapter white helmets after a significantly daring assualt on an ice world?

Especially in pre heresy- you can do what you like.


This is at least in line with a better fluff and the company being granted the color as an honour for a particular campaign. :p

Leftenant Gashrog
13-07-2009, 16:23
He probably means the MKVI (6) - as the article he refers to shows Beakies not MKVII (7)


Nope, I said MkVII because I mean MkVII - I was referring to the WD129 Tactical Squad article which accompanied the release of the (MkVII) Space Marine Strike Force boxed set (in 1990 - 3 years after RT was published and 3 years before 2 edition was published).

The concept sketch for the UM portion of that article published WD346 shows that the scheme was based off the 9-company "Heresy*" era system from WD126 rather than the 10-company post-heresy system.

* Space Marine 1st edition didnt distinguish between the Heresy and the Scouring - it was set in the Scouring but referred to it as the Heresy.

addendum: the concept sketches showed the Ultramarines Horus Heresy campaign badge to be a white oval (wider than higher) on the lower leg.

pookie
13-07-2009, 16:25
Nope, I said MkVII because I mean MkVII - I was referring to the WD129 Tactical Squad article which accompanied the release of the (MkVII) Space Marine Strike Force boxed set (in 1990 - 3 years after RT was published and 3 years before 2 edition was published).

The concept sketch for the UM portion of the article in WD346 show that the scheme was based off the 9-company "Heresy*" era system from WD126 rather than the 10-company post-heresy system.

* Space Marine 1st edition didnt distinguish between the Heresy and the Scouring - it was set in the Scouring but referred to it as the Heresy.

ahh ic , i have the most recent article in my mind, the one with the concept scetches, there MKVI (6) aint they tho?

Leftenant Gashrog
13-07-2009, 16:28
ahh ic , i have the most recent article in my mind, the one with the concept scetches, there MKVI (6) aint they tho?

A lot of the concept sketches were Mk6 - but the crayon coloured uniform concepts for the Ultramarines are Mk7

Urath
13-07-2009, 16:39
It was so awesome that Rogue Trader was set during the Horus Heresy/Scouring.

pookie
13-07-2009, 16:45
A lot of the concept sketches were mostly Mk6 - but crayon coloured uniform concepts for the Ultramarines are Mk7

ah i get it now, i just had that article in my mind, and knew they were depictions of MKVI (6), fair do's.

wilycoyote
13-07-2009, 17:42
The simplest and best argument, is that at that point the Ultras had not been fully codified. The Legion had many contributing worlds and therefore it is easy to suppose some "grand companies" while adhering to a general scheme, included something to honour their birth place - white helmets could be such a thing.

Only after the breakup and the enforcement of the new Codex Astartes, was the colour scheme made uniform.

Just thoughts

wilyC