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Elays
11-07-2009, 22:16
I'm going to be back in my home town in August and I'm looking to take part in some Warhammer Fantasy games there. We usually play around the 1250 point level, so I thought it would be a good time to crank out my Empire army and finally get them on the table. This is my first Empire army, and there's no particular theme to it besides "what I already own". Critique away.

HEROES

Warrior Priest w/ Great Weapon, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Barded Warhorse
133 Points

Battle Wizard (lvl 1) w/ Barded Warhorse and Dispel Scroll
104 Points

CORE

Fifteen Flagellants w/ Prophet of Doom
160 Points

Ten Huntsmen
100 Points

Twenty Spearmen w/ Shields and Full Command
140 Points
Six Militia detachment
30 Points

Twenty Swordsmen w/ Full Command
145 Points
Six Militia detachment
30 Points


SPECIAL

Five Pistoliers w/ Outrider w/ Repeater Pistol
114 Points

Great Canon
100 Points

Mortar
75 Points

RARE

Helblaster Volley Gun
110 Points

Dirty Diszle
12-07-2009, 09:26
I like it. Nice and balanced. With your warrior preist though I forget what its called but one of the magic items makes you swop profiles with the enemy in a challenge, I've found it more useful than armour of metioric iron. It is very good for killing other peoples generals as they dont expect it.

Captain Plowman
12-07-2009, 14:08
Thats Van Horstmann's Speculum you're thinking of Diszle. But in 1250pt games you aren't going to run into any Vampires or Chaos Lords or anything in that kind of vein, so the Speculum is a little redundant in smaller games IMO.

As for the army list, a few things:

1. You could have some serious magical offence in this army very easily. If you make the wizard lvl 2, and give the priest a doomfire ring, that's a fair bit of magic for 1250pts. If you give the wizard 2 scrolls, thats 4 PD, 2 bound spells, 4 DD and 2 scrolls. In smaller games this is enough to strongly contest the magic phase.

2. I think you should reconsider the warrior priest's wargear. the greatweapon is less effective when he's on a horse, and the armour of meteoric iron is unneeded. If you give him hvy armour, barded warhorse, and an enchanted shield, he still gets a 1+ save, and you save yourself a few points. Then give him the doomfire ring, as already mentioned.

3. Remember to keep your detatchments in 3x2 formation. Ideally, I would say use 9 in 3x3, but i know it is dictated my your collection. when they are only 3 wide they take up less deployment space, they are harder to charge, and suffer less return attacks in combat.

Elays
12-07-2009, 14:40
Captain Plowman, you are very helpful! I shall certainly be incorporating your suggestions about magical capability. That said, I do have some questions:

1) Incorporating your changes to the characters put me 71 points over. What should I drop in order to pay for them?
1a) My first instinct is to drop the Volley Gun, which then puts me 39 points under. What else could I buy with 39 points? I might beef out the detachments some. Which brings me to:

2) I see a lot here on the forums about keeping detachments in 3-front formations. This seems a bit odd to me. Don't I want as many counter-charge attacks as possible? I don't see how small frontage makes them harder to charge, and they are militia so they're going to panic and die almost no matter what if charged, so why not get the attacks?

3) With revisions to the wizard, what Lore would you recommend? I was originally thinking to favor the Lore of Heavens, since it has lower casting values for a level 1 wizard. Should I stick with that, or choose something different?

Gargobot
12-07-2009, 17:03
2) I see a lot here on the forums about keeping detachments in 3-front formations. This seems a bit odd to me. Don't I want as many counter-charge attacks as possible? I don't see how small frontage makes them harder to charge, and they are militia so they're going to panic and die almost no matter what if charged, so why not get the attacks?
The purpose of detachments is to negate the enemies static combat resolution (ranks) and adding to yours via flank or possibly rear charges. In order to achieve that the detachment needs a unit strength of 5+, so you want as few killed as possible, especially when you field only 6 to begin with. Less enemy models can attack your detachment if it has a smaller front size.

The 39 points would be best spend with more detachments, beef these detachments up to 9 each. Or make them two 8 Swordsmen detachments, as they have the best armour save in close combat.
Sry if I miscalculated, don't have the armybook handy.

You might also want to check these sites out:
http://www.warhammer-empire.com/warroom/
http://www.remanlegions.com/

Caboose123
12-07-2009, 19:24
Caboose is here!


HEROES

Warrior Priest w/ Great Weapon, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Barded Warhorse
133 Points

I don't like this set-up. Armour of Meteoric Iron is kinda wasted on a Priest. With heavy armour alone he would have a 3+ save. I would go with something like: Hammer of Judgement + Enchanted Shield. Or just drop the steed altogether, he would still have a 1+ save.
EDIT: Just drop the warhorse, put him with the Spearmen for most attacks.

Battle Wizard (lvl 1) w/ Barded Warhorse and Dispel Scroll
104 Points

Scroll Caddy isn't really necessary in low points games like this. 3 DD should be enough to stop 1 spell, and your opponent will at maximum be casting 3 a turn. You could gear this guy for offense instead, or change him for a Captain or drop him altogether.
EDIT: What was I thinking when I was wirting this? Dispel Scroll and maybe Van Horstmann's, or just 2x Dispel Scrolls

CORE

Fifteen Flagellants w/ Prophet of Doom
160 Points

Ten Huntsmen
100 Points

Twenty Spearmen w/ Shields and Full Command
140 Points
Six Militia detachment
30 Points

Twenty Swordsmen w/ Full Command
145 Points
Six Militia detachment
30 Points

These Units should be 25 IMHO, deployed in 5x5. Empire win combats by combat resolution. The Detachments should be a little bigger 9 or 10 guys in 3x3 or 5x2. Once they go below 5 they are meaningless (Well, other than as screens...).

SPECIAL

Five Pistoliers w/ Outrider w/ Repeater Pistol
114 Points

Consider a Musician, +1 to rally and the Fast Cavalry Feigned Flight its really a must have.

Great Cannon
100 Points

Mortar
75 Points

RARE

Helblaster Volley Gun
110 Points

Everything else looks fine. Its a good list, but I wonder how it will perform. Without a unit of Knights it has nothing for flanking units that get held up by the Flagellents or redirected by the Pistoliers. It looks like a shooting list, but has no handgunners or crossbowmen. I only suggested points increases so far... As Gargobot said, the detachments are there to break ranks and give you the flank charge, not for causing any damage, and a frontage of only 3 means they are more manoeuvrable (and less likely to receive charges...).
Final Comment: On lores, my favourite is lore of beasts, lore of light is pretty good as well. And I'm also liking Lore of Shadows more and more each time I see it...
EDIT: Lore of Heavens is good for shooting units and knights with its portent of far, man that spell is wicked!

Damocles8
12-07-2009, 21:17
I'd recommend
1. dropping the dispel scrolls and switching them with Van horstman's speculum

2. Dropping the Barded Warhorse from the priest (or switch to Luther Huss).....you'll want him in your units and the horse is wasted with the Armor of Meteoric Iron....and it'll give you a reason to keep the Great weapon....

Captain Plowman
13-07-2009, 03:39
No worries Elays. I'm always happy to help :)

1. Personally, I would be inclined to lose the Mortar. I'm not really a fan of Mortars. I think you should keep the Volleygun. I know, it's unpredictable and has a high chance of blowing itself up, but it's great for scaring your opponent. All it really needs to do is sit there and look threatening, and your opponent will give it a wide berth. He will be convinced that if he tries to theaten it or your cannon his fast cav will be turned into swiss cheese :cheese:

2. As Gargobot has already explained, detatchments are all about robbing your opponent of his ranks rather than killing stuff. I find 3x3 is ideal for this.

3. On the subject of the wizard, perhaps Caboose is right. You probably don't need such a heavy magic defense as I outlined in my last post. Instead, if you give him 2 power stones and a wizard's staff, and make him level 2, you can really focus on offence. If going for this option I would suggest using either the Lore of Fire, Shadow, or Death. If you use the power stones carefully you can cast most of your spells on 3 dice, meaning your opponent will be pressed to dispel them, or you can easily cast high level spells when using the wizard's staff.

4. As I've already suggested, the Speculum is best used for surprising really powerful enemy characters such as Vampires of Daemon Princes, which you aren't going to meet in 1250pt games. In 2000+pt games I wouldn't leave home without it, but in anything smaller it's not needed. The warrior priest can handle just about anything you're going to meet in smaller games.

5. I think you should keep the Priest's horse. For just 14pts he gets +2 armour save and (effectively) an extra attack. Bargain! I would then give him hvy armour, shield, and sword of sigismund. Thats 2+ armour save and possibly a 4+ ward thanks to the Armour of Contempt prayer, and Str 5 and always strikes first, combined with his re-rolls to hit thanks to his Hatred, and maybe even re-rolls to wound with Hammer of Sigmar prayer makes him quite handy in combat.

Draconian77
13-07-2009, 04:15
I'm no expert on the Empire but it seems silly to go into a game without your trusty flag-waver nearby.

I would suggest dropping the Priest in favour of a Captain with the Armour of Meteoric Iron, Hammer of Judgement and of course, the Battle Standard itself.

He can join the Swordsmen block or the Spearmen block and should be tough enough and hitty enough to duke it out with any other Heroes.

You also get the +1CR and re-rolls on your Break tests for 25pts, a steal.

For the mage* I'd suggest Lv2 and the Rod of Power, plus whatever other trinket you want. If you are playing against someone with say, a single scroll caddy you can generate up to 7 PD with one mage! (Although 6 is all you can use so don't risk going for 7...) Then, if you come up against someone with say, 2 Lv2 mages you can generate up to 6 DD(5 is a safer bet) instead. It's a truly great magic item.

*I like the Lore of Beasts, Light and Heavens.

Of course, losing the Priest means losing the Flagellants as core, but I was going to suggest dropping the Hellblaster anyway. It's true role is to keep large targets on their toes, and you shouldn't be fighting any at 1250pts.

Replace the Hellblaster with 10 Crossbowmen/Handgunners.

Overall these changes should save you some points which you can spend upping the size of your detachments.

Elays
13-07-2009, 22:13
So taking all of these suggestions into consideration, here is my revised list with notations. This is a more shooty army than previously, with more magic as well.

HEROES

Warrior Priest w/ Barded Warhorse, Shield, Heavy Armor and Doomfire Ring
140 points
I gave him the doomfire ring to add another shooting element and another bound spell for more magic. He won't be extremely killy, but Hatred will help out the Spearmen or Swordsmen immensely

Lvl 2 Battle Wizard w/ Barded Warhorse and 2 Power Stones
154 Points
As per recommendations. Couldn't afford the Wizard's Staff.

CORE

Twenty Spearmen (5x4) w/ Full Command and Shields
140 Points
Nine Militia Detachment (3x3)
45 Points
Bulked out militia to nine.

Twenty Swordsmen (5x4) w/ Full Command
145 Points
Nine Militia Detachment (3x3)
45 Points
The same.

Ten Huntsmen
100 Points

Ten Crossbowman
80 Points
Added these guys to have more shooting. I chose crossbowmen over handgunners in order to have longer range. A wise choice, or no?

SPECIAL

Great Cannon
100 Points

Mortar
75 Points
I kept it mostly because I had the points, but also in lower points it seems to earn back its own fairly quickly versus the likes of undead and orcs. Also, I'm pretty good at guess range.

Five Pistoliers w/ Musician and Outrider w/ Repeater Pistol
114 Points
Turns out I paid for the musician in my earlier list but failed to note him in.

RARE

Helblaster Volley Gun
110 Points
Kept it in order to protect the cannon and mortar from flyers and flankers and pesky dwarf miners.

I ditched the flagellants, because as was pointed out, without knights or some similar "hammer" unit, they just bog things down to no real purpose. A nice chunk of points back on them allowed me to afford the crossbowmen and equipment upgrades.

Thoughts, gentlemen?

Damocles8
14-07-2009, 04:08
I'd shift some points around and try and get a BSB or another character......

chickenworm
14-07-2009, 06:18
If you'd like your warrior priest to have 1+ armor save, just add in the enchanted shield.

For the wizard, I'd prefer the Rod of Power but that's my individual preference.

Crossbowmen have advantage of range but I'd prefer handgunners due to armor piercing.

I play my pistoliers as a bait or march block so I'd leave out the outrider and use the points elsewhere.

Captain Plowman
20-07-2009, 03:52
I wouldn't take a BSB in 1250pts. Not useful enough, too much of a points sink, and points that could be used elsewhere.

I prefer handguns personally, but crossbowmen do have their merits. Maybe consider dropping the mortar and adding a unit of handgunners?

I would keep the power stones on the wizard. A wizard's staff would be optimal, because then you have enough dice and the ability to cast high level spells with 4 dice. Not many 1250pt armies have the magical defence to deal with that. If you dropped the Outrider from the pistoliers you can afford one.