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Elays
12-07-2009, 12:39
Honorable Warseers,

As I'm assembling my first Empire army, I have a box of Outriders/Pistoliers sitting in a drawer, but I can't decide which to assemble them as. My army list (seen here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209394)) as it currently stands seems well suited to pistoliers, as I don't have much else that can move forward and be agressive in intercepting and redirecting fast enemy units. However, I thought Outriders would be useful to stay back and protect my canon/mortar against flyers and fast cav who come looking to silence the guns.

So, Great Warseers, what are your thoughts?

Captain Plowman
12-07-2009, 14:11
I would say stick with the pistoliers. Use them in tandem with the huntsmen to really mess with your opponent's marching, bogging his units down infront of the Helblaster, or go darting off to munch his war machines. The Helblaster is a good area denial unit, and just pointing it in the direction of any incoming fast cav should be enough to scare them away.

Peachtacular
12-07-2009, 20:53
Definitely stick with pistoliers.
Outriders have to be the most confusing and contradictory unit in the game.
Excellent guns, yet move OR shoot.......on fast cavalry...... :wtf:

Caboose123
12-07-2009, 21:19
Both are good, but comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges.

Pistoliers:
Pistoliers are ideal flanking units. They are cheap xonsidering they have missile weapons. They also have 360 degree LoS for shooting. They are also armed with powerful weapons that are S4 and Armour Piercing (Best shooting weapon on fast cav?) that ignore moving and shooting and over half range penalties. They can perform multiple roles on the battlefield:
-Redirect scary units away from the fight [March directly in front of said unit and unload a volley, they will have little choice but to charge and when they do you promptly flee]
-Move onto opponents flanks, march blocking and harrying units with their powerful weapons. In this role they can shoot down enemy fast cavalry or lone wizards and even run forward and attack artillery or archery units.
-Protect your flanks, much the same as above, but with less focus on reaching your opponents, and more on attacking would-be flankers.
-Worst case scenario they can perform the knights role of flanking units if needs be.

Outriders:
Outriders are more simple, and less variable on the battlefield. They have 1 role, shooting down tough troops with their insanely powerful weapons and impressive Bs. They are armed with the best non-artillery long range weapon. Its interesting that someone said that they are a contradictory unit, at first i thought so too, but their ability to reform freely gives them a massive bonus. Most archer units are deployed in a wide line, fire their guns for 3 or 4 turns without moving and are charged and wiped out in a single round of combat. Outriders, using their reforms can reposition and escape enemy charges (Particularly by moving on/to the flanks). Sure they are move-or-fire, but if they reposition themselves for 2 turns then they still get 4 turns of firing in the game. For each Outrider you get 3 Handgunners that are faster and more manoeuvrable and have the very real prospect of actually survivng the game!
Alternatively you cna give them barding, giving them the same role as other handgunner units with less frontage and a 4+ save, still pretty awesome! Be wary though, Outriders usually become public enemy #1 and are often targeted by scouts, flying units, long range shooting and magic, so you must be careful when using them.


As for the original debate, it really depends on the list, for combat orientated lists I would take at least 1 unit of pistoliers, for shooting/magic lists I would try to fit in some Outriders and Pistoliers.

Keller
13-07-2009, 17:00
Both are fantastic units, but I personally find Pistoliers to be a bit more useful. It all deplends on your playstyle, though. I think Caboose does a nice job of summing them up.

PeG
13-07-2009, 17:04
and the outrider champion can be given the hochland rifle to pick out characters or champions from units which is the best BS you cna get with that weapon.

Peril
13-07-2009, 19:29
Don't think of the outriders as fast cav. Think of them as a lot of handguns on a small frontage that can reposition if necessary.

That said, give me real fast cav any day. Now that they can flee-rally-move-shoot, I really prefer them.

Keller
13-07-2009, 19:36
On thing I really like about Outriders, and most people don't consider, is their fast-cav LoS rules. This means they can fire on threats that break the normal LoS firing arcs, where as most other units would have to turn to face them, thereby forgoing shooting. With a unit of Outriders protecting your lines, no tunneling, board-entering, or terrain skirting units can out manuever your firing lines to get close to your squishy ranged units.

kardar233
14-07-2009, 07:08
I don't play Empire, but the local player swears by his units of Outriders, which he uses two groups of anywhere from 4-8 men. They're brilliant against the generally M3-6 scene around here, as they can fire at their advancing enemy until he declares a charge, flees 3d6 and then reforms for more shooty bits. 3x Multiple Shots S4 AP is also murder against heavy cavalry, and they're cheap enough to sacrifice for Frenzy-baiting and General-hunting.

freelancer
14-07-2009, 12:31
Another good tactic with Pistoliers is having a wizard on a horse with the casket of sorcery. Flank your enemys army and find the hidin wizards and take their spells. Always fun.

Freelancer

Caboose123
14-07-2009, 14:03
^
If you do that, then the unit is no longer a cheap throwaway unit, which is wha pistoliers are best at.
I agree its a nice plan though.

Havock
18-07-2009, 17:46
Pistoliers = fast cav.
Outriders = glorified handgunners on horsies.

Completely different roles on the battlefield, the former work best in, well, any list that can spare the special slot(s)
The former works primarily in a gunline where they merely add to the amount of dice tossed in the corresponding phase.

Cragspyder
18-07-2009, 21:56
Anyone give the outrider champ that neat S6 AP (or maybe just S6) grenade launcher?

Never seen anyone take that over the Hochland...or maybe I am mistaken and only the Master Engineer can take it?

Caboose123
18-07-2009, 23:21
Pistoliers = fast cav.
Outriders = glorified handgunners on horsies.


:cries: They really are so much more than that...


That Grenade Launcher isn't really great, the Hochland can be take on outrider champs (and with Bs5 he will put it to good use!) but the weapon he already has is so good anyway that its hardly worth replacing it.

Phytrion
19-07-2009, 00:35
Yeah, I would have the outrider champ keep his weapon. The fact that they have fast cav LoS for shooting should not go overlooked. They are certainly functioning in a different role compared to the pistolliers, but to call them glorified handgunners is way off base. A guy at our local gaming shop has been using them quite effectively. Those 3x shots are brutal - especially with their BS.

Havock
19-07-2009, 00:51
:cries: They really are so much more than that...


That Grenade Launcher isn't really great, the Hochland can be take on outrider champs (and with Bs5 he will put it to good use!) but the weapon he already has is so good anyway that its hardly worth replacing it.

No, they aren't. They really do what the handgunners do, albeit in a smaller package, and their guns are powered by powerthirst or something.