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MindTheGap
12-07-2009, 19:43
Hi folks!

OKies - this is my first ever army list, so I'm still learning the finer points of creating a useable and fun army as opposed to just painting stuff. Theres no theme as yet for this list, just wanted to hear if you all think this would be playable as my first completed army, and if it would be suitable to introduce me to the game game without being beaten to a pulp every time it's plopped onto the table! This list has been based on others I've found in the forums' archives, but with my own additions and modifications. Thanks in advance - all c&c is greatly appreciated.

Hero
Luthor Huss

Hero
Wizard with Warhorse, Level 2 and Silver horn

Hero
Wizard with Level 2 and Rod Of Power

Hero
Master Engineer with Mechanical Steed and Repeater Pistol

Core
x20 Swordsmen with FC
x10 Halberdiers as detachment
x10 Halberdiers as detachment

Core
x20 Swordsmen with FC
x10 Freecompany as detachment
x10 Freecompany as detachment

Core
x10 Handgunners with Marksman and Hochland Longrifle

Core
x20 Flagellant Warband with Prophet Of Doom

Special
x20 Greatswords with FC
x10 Freecompany as detachment
x10 Freecomapny as detachment

Special
Great Cannon

Special
Great Cannon

Rare
Hellblaster Volleygun

Makes a total of bang on 2000 points - a few questions, though, if you don't mind?

1. Should I replace the Wizards' Warhorse and the Master Engineer with another Hellblaster for the same points, or would this be classed as a bit over the top with firepower?

2. I understand that the Flagellants are now classed as CORE troops due to me having a Priest Of Sigmar in the army - this would clear my second Rare slot if you all thought another Hellblaster was viable?

3. I'm reading a lot about detachments being 3x3 for various reasons - would it be best for me to re-think and have all of the detachments as 3x3 i.e. 9 models per detachment?

Thanks again for any help anyone can offer - this is going to be my TOFP project for the next Tale, so I want to get my list right before I head off and buy any models!

Gappy

Caboose123
12-07-2009, 20:47
Hi folks!

Cheerful, ain't ya?

Hero
Luthor Huss

I don't like using Special Characters in any army, even though this guy isn't anywhere near broken or anything, I just dislike using them. Instead I'd try A Warrior Priest with Van Horstmann's, or a Captain BSB, or a Captain/Grand Master with Hammer of Judgement

Hero
Wizard with Warhorse, Level 2 and Silver horn

I prefer the Orb of Thunder for disruption, with the Silver Horn you will only be rallying low points costing units anyway, and if you had a BSB...

Hero
Wizard with Level 2 and Rod Of Power

Nothing wrong with this guy, though I'd like to see a Dispel Scroll in the list.

Hero
Master Engineer with Mechanical Steed and Repeater Pistol

Quite a nice model but I can't see why he'd go in the list. An Outrider champion is better with his repeater pistol! Instead of buying this character to help your war machines you could just buy another war machine!

Core
x20 Swordsmen with FC
x10 Halberdiers as detachment
x10 Halberdiers as detachment

I think the Parent unit should be minimum 25, to account for shooting. Also, generally 1 detachment is enough IMHO.

Core
x20 Swordsmen with FC
x10 Freecompany as detachment
x10 Freecompany as detachment

Ditto.

Core
x10 Handgunners with Marksman and Hochland Longrifle

Core
x20 Flagellant Warband with Prophet Of Doom

Special
x20 Greatswords with FC
x10 Freecompany as detachment
x10 Freecomapny as detachment

You really do like your detachments don't you?

Special
Great Cannon

Special
Great Cannon

Nothing to say here really...

Rare
Hellblaster Volleygun

Makes a total of bang on 2000 points - a few questions, though, if you don't mind?

1. Should I replace the Wizards' Warhorse and the Master Engineer with another Hellblaster for the same points, or would this be classed as a bit over the top with firepower?

A) Adding another war machine wouldn't be OTT
B) If you need a few points the War Horse on the Mage can go, its not really needed.
C) I'd add another unit of handgunners before adding a war machine, it would prolly make this list a stand-back and shoot list, but theres nothing wrong with those.
D) [My thoughts on Engineers]

2. I understand that the Flagellants are now classed as CORE troops due to me having a Priest Of Sigmar in the army - this would clear my second Rare slot if you all thought another Hellblaster was viable?

Yes they are core. I wouldn't suggest another Helblaster though, I just think they're too random, quite inaccurate, and have a high chance of blowing themselves up. (This is just my opinion though...)

3. I'm reading a lot about detachments being 3x3 for various reasons - would it be best for me to re-think and have all of the detachments as 3x3 i.e. 9 models per detachment?

3x3 allows for more manoeuvrability, and means your opponent will be more inclined to ignore them (No one wants to charge their 18 chosen into a frontage of 3 guys...). On the other hand your accepting that your detachments will cause no damage. Its really your preference, try practicing both, see which you prefer.

Thanks again for any help anyone can offer - this is going to be my TOFP project for the next Tale, so I want to get my list right before I head off and buy any models!

Gappy

I see this as a shooting army, with 3 big blocks to deter anyone from coming close. For this you will probably need at least 1 more unit of shooting guys. I would suggest some Huntsmen as well, to march block, and harry your opponents flanks/rear. Pistoliers can be helpful for redirecting charges, providing an opportunity for that unit to get shot at for another turn. For magic I always suggest lore of beasts, in this case the beast cowers can be useful for stopping big things like dragons (so you get 2 chances with your cannons) or knights (fast knights or fast cavalry could cause you problems if they reach your lines). The Bears Anger can be helpful for stopping Uber-lords you may find at this points level (as well as VHS).

Peachtacular
12-07-2009, 20:51
You have 4 blocks that will act as anvils. Yet zero hammers. I would drop one of the big blocks of infantry for 2 units of 5-6 Knights. They will provide excellent flankers and some hard hitting power.

I would drop the engineer in favor of a Captain BSB. Give him the Armor of Meteoric Iron and a great weapon. The BSB is invaluable for Empire as passing break tests is crucial.

For your detachments...
-I would switch to one detachment of archers/handgunners and one of halbredeer/free company for each parent unit.
-3x3?? A strange setup, but only if you want to minimize the amount of attacks against your detachments. Try it out against infantry that tears empire soldiers to shreds.

I think one hellblaster should suffice. You also have 2 cannons, and assuming you switch for more shooty detachments, uprward of 30 handgunner/archers. That's a solid amount of shooting for 2k.

Jind_Singh
12-07-2009, 21:12
I actually quite like the list, engineers are one those things, stat wise they not so good, pointswise they are expensive for what they do, but they look so damn good! I also like taking the engineer on the mechancial steed as lets face it, it's an awesome model!
I would suggest though that one combat detachment per parent unit is enough. After all is said and done a detachments main role is to negate the enemy rank bonus, and to help you outnumber the enemy (giving you a +5 static combat res bonus, assuming you still have the full 3 ranks). Throwing in more troops quite often works against you as most armies hit bitter, harder, and more effectivly than state troopers. Against lizzard man for example you get an extra 5 str 4 attacks with the halberdiers, in return you face 10 str 4 attacks from their sarus! Thats why most like to keep detachments down to 3*3 as it will (hopefully) cut down your loses in the return attacks.
If you want both detachments than I'd plump for 1 combat detachment and a shooting detachment.
I'd also take 10 archers and upgrade them to huntsmen so you have 1 scouting unit!
I wouldn't personally use free company as detachments, theres a reason they are called free company.....they give away combat res for free!!!
Granted they have 2 attacks each but so what? St 3, no modifiers to armour saves, and in return they have horrible armour saves themselves, they will negate any benifits your greatswords do. Sub them for a detachment of halderdiers.
Take the free company as a unit of 20, and make it a parent unit (though it can't take detachments).
You have 2 cannons and a hellblaster, so dont bother with more - instead you could do with at least 6 knights with command, ideally a bannor on them for extra added punch.
Luther Huss - I actually dont mind him as he has cool imagary and isn't broken compared to a lot of special characters.
Overll it's a solid army though!
QUESTION - What province/state did you choose???

MindTheGap
12-07-2009, 21:12
@Caboose123 - Always cheerful - it makes folks wonder what you've been up to....

Thanks to everyone for the advice so far! I'm going to go through and ammend the list, so will let you know what I come up with after reading your advice.

I don't want this to become a stand and shoot army, though, hense my going overboard with detachments, thinking it'd be more of a combat type than shooty - shows how much I have to learn lol

Thanks again - keep the c&c coming!

Caboose123
12-07-2009, 21:13
You have 4 blocks that will act as anvils. Yet zero hammers. I would drop one of the big blocks of infantry for 2 units of 5-6 Knights. They will provide excellent flankers and some hard hitting power.

Excellent advice all of what Peachtacular said, in particular this caught my eye. Some Vanilla Knights even, deployed at the flanks could deter would-be flankers and turn inwards to act as hammers.


I would drop the engineer in favor of a Captain BSB. Give him the Armor of Meteoric Iron and a great weapon. The BSB is invaluable for Empire as passing break tests is crucial.

That is certainly 1 way you could go. But there are some other options when it comes to BSB equipment line ups. Full Plate Mail and a Barded Steed is a 2+ save, only 1 off the Armour of Meteoric Iron, and you could put those points into a magical trinket (Hammer of Judgement, maybe even Sigil of Sigmar...) or a magic banner (Even the humble Warbanner is decent).


Edit: If you don't want to be a Stand and Shoot army then this army may struggle. I like the idea of marching a lot of men forwards, but they are slow and lack punch. The Detachment system works best on the defensive, doing a combined charge is sometimes tricky, and no opponent will let you do it. If you want a more combat-orientated army then I'd make other tweaks (which I will suggest later...) to the list instead.

MindTheGap
12-07-2009, 21:30
@ Jind_Singh - I was thinking of Middenheim... Ulric.... The White Wolf sort of thing. Of my entire model collection, I've got very few Empire figs - the ones I do have being the Warrior Priests Of Ulric and the Teutogen Guard command group which I'd kind of like to incorporate into the army somehow. Do you think this list (with the alterations I've yet to do based on everyones' advice) is suitable for this province?

MindTheGap
12-07-2009, 22:12
Okies - round 2 into the ideas pot! Here goes.... c&c is greatly appreciated!

Hero
Captain BSB with Full Plate, Barded Steed and Hammer Of Justice (122)

Hero
Warrior Priest with Van Horstmann's (120)

Hero
Wizard with Level 2 and Rod Of Power (130)

Hero
Wizard with Level 2 and Orb Of Thunder (130)

Core
x20 Swordsmen with FC (125)
Detachment of x10 Handgunners (50)

Core
x5 Knights with FC (155)

Core
x5 Knights with FC (155)

Core
x20 Flagellants with Prophet Of Doom (210)

Core
x10 Handgunners with Marksman and Hochland Longrifle (105)

Core
x10 Archers with Huntsmen upgrade (100)

Special
x20 Greatswords with FC (230)
Detachment of x10 Halberdiers (50)

Special
Great Cannon (100)

Special
Great Cannon (100)

Rare
Hellblaster Volleygun (110)

Works out at 1992 points, trying to take into consideration all of the advice received so far - please let me know if you think I'm on the right track for a useable Empire army which will teach me the game.

Thanks again - looking forward to hearing everyone's comments.

Gappy

Caboose123
12-07-2009, 22:32
Caboose is here...


Okies - round 2 into the ideas pot! Here goes.... c&c is greatly appreciated!

Hero
Captain BSB with Full Plate, Barded Steed and Hammer Of Justice (122)

Hero
Warrior Priest with Van Horstmann's (120)

Much better IMHO, but they should have mundane equipment as well? Hammer of Justice is one handed so a shield, and on the warrior Priest Heavy Armour + Barded Steed + Shield

Hero
Wizard with Level 2 and Rod Of Power (130)

Hero
Wizard with Level 2 and Orb Of Thunder (130)

Nothing wrong here

Core
x20 Swordsmen with FC (125)
Detachment of x10 Handgunners (50)

Hmmm, I'd drop the Handgunners to 5, make the swordsmen 25 and give them a combat detachment. Empire troops without a combat detachment (to negate ranks, grant outnumbering and +1 for flank charge) could struggle to hold long enough for your knights to flank in.
EDIT: On second thoughts, try keeping the handgunners at 10, and add a combat detachment...

Core
x5 Knights with FC (155)

Core
x5 Knights with FC (155)

FC isn't really necessary, they will flank for the Greatswords or Swordsmen, so they don't need to have the standard bearer, the musician is also accounted for in the swordsmen. This could save some points.

Core
x20 Flagellants with Prophet Of Doom (210)

If you need points you can drop these guys to 15 w/o a Prophet to act as a speed bump.

Core
x10 Handgunners with Marksman and Hochland Longrifle (105)

Core
x10 Archers with Huntsmen upgrade (100)

Good!

Special
x20 Greatswords with FC (230)
Detachment of x10 Halberdiers (50)

Special
Great Cannon (100)

Special
Great Cannon (100)

Rare
Hellblaster Volleygun (110)

Works out at 1992 points, trying to take into consideration all of the advice received so far - please let me know if you think I'm on the right track for a useable Empire army which will teach me the game.

This list looks much better, and should do quite well.


I only suggested a few minor tweaks this time and otherwise this list looks almost done, good luck in your Empire adventures and all that...

Peachtacular
13-07-2009, 00:02
I second the above advice.

Dropping the Knights command saves, what, 60 pts?
Definitely give the swordsman a combat detachment. One thing I might add is the suggestion to grab a mortar, assuming you can scrounge together enough points. Crowd control is a good thing.

Good luck!

MindTheGap
13-07-2009, 17:37
Hi!

Thanks to everyone for your input and advice - thanks to you all I'm starting to figure out *why* I need certain units and the role that they'll play within my army. Hopefully this list will now be complete - sorry for posting another list, but I really do appreciate everyones' opinions and input before I go spending on the models :D

Hero
Captain BSB with Full Plate, Barded Steed and Hammer Of Judgement and Shield (110)

Hero
Warrior Priest with Van Horstmann's, Barded Steed and Shield (136)

Hero
Wizard with Level 2 and Rod Of Power (130)

Hero
Wizard with Level 2 and Orb Of Thunder (130)

Core
x20 Swordsmen with FC (125)
Detachment of x10 Handgunners (50)
Detachment of x10 Halberdiers (50)

Core
x5 Knights 115

Core
x5 Knights 115

Core
x15 Flagellants with Prophet Of Doom (160)

Core
x10 Handgunners with Marksman and Hochland Longrifle (105)

Core
x10 Archers with Huntsmen upgrade (100)

Special
x20 Greatswords with FC (230)
Detachment of x10 Halberdiers (50)

Special
Great Cannon (100)

Special
Great Cannon (100)

Special
Mortar (75)

Rare
Hellblaster Volleygun (110)

Righties - hows that looking now? I think I've managed to get most things covered thanks to all of the help offered so far. This list comes in at 1991 points.

Please let me know what you all think - I can't thank you all enough!

Cheers! Gappy

Caboose123
13-07-2009, 21:59
Hi!

Still so cheerful...

Thanks to everyone for your input and advice - thanks to you all I'm starting to figure out *why* I need certain units and the role that they'll play within my army. Hopefully this list will now be complete - sorry for posting another list, but I really do appreciate everyones' opinions and input before I go spending on the models :D

I think this will be the last time...

Hero
Captain BSB with Full Plate, Barded Steed and Hammer Of Judgement and Shield (110)

I told you to put the shield on, but *technically* as hes a BSB he can't have it. Its allowed in the more recent books, but officially you can't do this.

Hero
Warrior Priest with Van Horstmann's, Barded Steed and Shield (136)

Nice

Hero
Wizard with Level 2 and Rod Of Power (130)

Nice

Hero
Wizard with Level 2 and Orb Of Thunder (130)

Nice, no dispel scroll in this list, but you do have 5 DD which is quite nice, and the rod could make some more if you need it.

Core
x20 Swordsmen with FC (125)
Detachment of x10 Handgunners (50)
Detachment of x10 Halberdiers (50)

I'd like to see 25 swordsmen. Otherwise this is fine.

Core
x5 Knights 115

Core
x5 Knights 115

Nice

Core
x15 Flagellants with Prophet Of Doom (160)

Nice

Core
x10 Handgunners with Marksman and Hochland Longrifle (105)

If you find the Hochland isn't doing much I'd consider dropping it, or replacing it with the Repeating Handgun. Never used 1 Hochland before though.

Core
x10 Archers with Huntsmen upgrade (100)

Nice

Special
x20 Greatswords with FC (230)
Detachment of x10 Halberdiers (50)

Nice

Special
Great Cannon (100)

Special
Great Cannon (100)

Nice

Special
Mortar (75)

Where did you find the points for this! A welcome addition to the list.

Rare
Hellblaster Volleygun (110)

Nice

Righties - hows that looking now? I think I've managed to get most things covered thanks to all of the help offered so far. This list comes in at 1991 points.


List looks ready. It forces the enmy to come close using its shooting (Artillery + Handgunners) all the while pummeling big targets. When they arrive they face 3 big meaty blocks which should be hard to budge, and if they hold will get flank charged by knights. Its a great plan, and with any luck it may even work! :p

Jind_Singh
14-07-2009, 07:23
By the grace of Sigmar - a list worthy of the Heldenhammer himself.
3 excellent combat units - swordsmen with detachment, Greatswords with detachment, and the nice unbreakable flaggies to hold a flank until they are all dead.
Top this with 30 troops with ranged firepower, 10 who scout, and FOUR warmachines - but such a delightful selection, and then to pound the foe you added 2 units of knights for some extra va-va-voom!
The characters are great too, but my question is this....
why leave those 9 pts behind? Scrounge up some parts and construct an extra statetrooper from somewere (5pts) an dadd him to a unit. Make a unit of 11 or 21 somewere! That extra man ALWAYS comes in handy!
Other than that you have a supberb army - in terms of collecting, painting, and playing.
Later you can add the steamtank model, some pistollers, outriders, easily raise your force to 3000 pts, and also have enough variety to ensure your 2000pt is built the same way!
Take care and have fun with it

MindTheGap
14-07-2009, 08:16
Excellent! Thanks again for all of the help and advice - I'll be getting the models soon so I can get them assembled and prepared in time for the TOFP, so please feel free to check my progress in the Tales' thread if your interested.

I can't wait to get started on these guys!

Huge thanks

Gappy