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Killboss
13-07-2009, 11:13
Hello all, im currantly writing a list for my eldar to vs chaos marines..... With my heavy support, i have 5, but only 3 slots...

I've got 2 war walkers, a fire prism, Dark Reapers, and 2 wraithlords.

Dark Reapers seem a must because of the AP3 thing.
Dunno about the wraithlords i don't really need EML Lance lords...
War Walkers can be used with guide/doomseer for total carnage
And the fire prism has been in almost every game i've ever had with eldar (besides like 1000 point games) ever since i've got it (so there's sentimental value there,) not to mention the S9 AP2 blast....


So, what do you guys think i should chuck in? I wish to use all 3 slots, and i don't care how many points they are.... just give me your combos.
I can proxy wargear/weapons.

Harfaern
13-07-2009, 11:23
Hi,

I would took the Fire prism and the 2 wraithlords; the reapers and the walkers seems too fragile. The Fire prism is always useful and the lords, apart from shooting, can hold the line and support close combat against plagemarines, berserkers or demons.

just my 2 cents

Irisado
13-07-2009, 11:31
In fifth edition, AP is not the decisive factor when it comes to picking units in my opinion.

Remember that most cover now confers a 4+ save, and good MEQ players will make good use of cover, so if you expect to play on a board with a decent amount of terrain, I would recommend not fielding the Dark Reapers.

Dark Reapers are also very expensive, so unless this game is going to be 2000 points, which seems not to be the case, I think they would cost too many points for you to field in any case.

If you don't expect to be facing enough vehicles to warrant taking anti-tank Wraithlords, then you can rule those out too.

This leaves you with Fire Prisms and War Walkers, which can both fulfil the anti-infantry role quite well, so the choice here depends on which you feel more comfortable with fielding.

If you want more detailed advice, posting a list in army lists forum would probably be a sound plan.

I hope that helps.

Bishop Rook
13-07-2009, 11:33
A single fire prism isn't very useful against MEQs. One AP2 blast template isn't going to bother any decent MEQ player, and even if you took 2 for the AP3 large blast it's still of debatable worth. It doesn't throw out enough pain to justify the cost IMO.

I'm not a huge fan of Dark Reapers either. Cover saves are too prolific in 5th. The Chaos Space Marines will ride up in Rhinos, largely ignoring your S5 AP3 reapers, then disembark and assault them. Not a bad choice though, but remember to give the Exarch a tempest launcher and crack shot - he should end up killing as many MEQs as the rest of his squad put together!

Wraithlords - yes! I'm biased, but they'll be useful for knocking out Rhinos before he can get into assault range. They can't really handle squads of Chaos Space Marines in assault without a wraithsword, but between the twin flamers and the S10 they'll dent and tarpit them while the rest of your army runs away to get range.

War Walkers are a solid choice, capable of knocking out both Rhinos and CSM with volume of fire. They're not optimal against MEQs, but should perform well enough if you keep them at range.

Important
13-07-2009, 11:34
as a chaos player myself I hate to face wraithlords. Anoying to shoot down, pain in the ass to fight in CC since power fist is basicly the only thing that takes them down. Just make sure to have warlocks close by so they won't stand still for a round. Fire prism is also good.

Serpent
13-07-2009, 11:37
I would go for one WL, the Prism and the War Walkers. Outflanking, multi-shot weapons are not to be messed with...

Bishop Rook
13-07-2009, 11:52
I would go for one WL, the Prism and the War Walkers. Outflanking, multi-shot weapons are not to be messed with...

I'd advise against outflanking the War Walkers. It puts them too close to the enemy and makes their deployment random. With an effective 42" range (36" guns + 6" movement), they can sit on their own board edge and comfortably hit anything in the enemy's deployment zone.

Plus if they outflank they can't benefit from any guide-spamming Farseer synergy goodness!

Killboss
13-07-2009, 11:59
Dark Reapers are also very expensive, so unless this game is going to be 2000 points, which seems not to be the case, I think they would cost too many points for you to field in any case.

If you don't expect to be facing enough vehicles to warrant taking anti-tank Wraithlords, then you can rule those out too.

This leaves you with Fire Prisms and War Walkers, which can both fulfil the anti-infantry role quite well, so the choice here depends on which you feel more comfortable with fielding.

If you want more detailed advice, posting a list in army lists forum would probably be a sound plan.

I hope that helps.

Funnily enough, it is 2000 points. The dark reapers are there for AP 3 and the ability to negate those cover saves you seem worried about. I know your view on my dear old fire prism (if only you could se it in action....)


I would go for one WL, the Prism and the War Walkers. Outflanking, multi-shot weapons are not to be messed with...

The warwalkers are probably going to be in NOT for outflank, i dont care how scary 16 S6 (i give mine scatter lasers, but even with starcannons, my point stands,) shots coming from a flank is, especially when 1/2 will hit, there'll be no seer AND why would i outflank when they get mowed down by bolter fire? BUT multitude of shots+doom/guideseer means so many saves to roll MEQs will die.



A single fire prism isn't very useful against MEQs. One AP2 blast template isn't going to bother any decent MEQ player, and even if you took 2 for the AP3 large blast it's still of debatable worth.

I'm not a huge fan of Dark Reapers either. Cover saves are too prolific in 5th. The Chaos Space Marines will ride up in Rhinos, largely ignoring your S5 AP3 reapers, then disembark and assault them. Not a bad choice though, but remember to give the Exarch a tempest launcher and crack shot - he should end up killing as many MEQs as the rest of his squad put together!

Wraithlords - yes! I'm biased, but they'll be useful for knocking out Rhinos before he can get into assault range. They can't really handle squads of Chaos Space Marines in assault without a wraithsword, but between the twin flamers and the S10 they'll dent and tarpit them while the rest of your army runs away to get range.

War Walkers are a solid choice, capable of knocking out both Rhinos and CSM with volume of fire. They're not optimal against MEQs, but should perform well enough if you keep them at range.

Well, the fire prism would be useful fir IDing characters, adn even though all of you critics will say its bad in 1 against MEQs honestly, im going to go by my experience (which is, its guns down alot of things and is a pain in the ass to kill)


And the Dark Reapers should be fine, with crack shot. And did you not notice the part where i said i wont need anti tank? (ie, not going to be tanks, ie no rhinos, well, ok there's one rhino) And i am right with you with crack shot+tempest Launcher.
I remember my opponent saying to me on MSN (he was probably trying to psych me out of using them or something, i don't know) buthe said that DRs arn't really that good against MEQs.... Later we had an apoc game, and because of them, my right flank was same from horrors and 'zerks alike.


Im abit doubtful with Wraithlords for CC as he'll have a nurgle chaos lord.... they equal pain against a wraithlord. I might be able to use them as gunlords, yes? Maybe Starcannon+something and 2 flamers?


I forgot to mention this, but im looking for top 3+the best weapon selection IYO. And as i said earlier, its a 2000 point game. And i just realised, this is bordering on tactics....

Thanks for all the quick replies, you opinions are apreciated.

Harfaern
13-07-2009, 12:08
2000 points and he is not using tanks? Defilers, maybe?

Irisado
13-07-2009, 12:29
Funnily enough, it is 2000 points. The dark reapers are there for AP 3 and the ability to negate those cover saves you seem worried about. I know your view on my dear old fire prism (if only you could se it in action....)

AP3 won't help in the face of all that 4+ cover in my experience, that's the problem.

Crack Shot only works on the Exarch, and I have recently booted the Dark Reapers out of my 2000 point list (which faces Marines nearly all the time) because the standard Dark Reapers were not inflicting enough casualties, and were too reliant on the Exarch and his Tempest Launcher to cause harm.

There is nothing especially wrong with taking one Fire Prism, incidentally, it's just that taking two is better :).

Scelerat
13-07-2009, 12:52
If you're not going to use Reapers, and have the spare points, I have been using lately a VERY strong flank:
10 Wraithguards + Warlock + Farseer + at least one Wraithlord advancing by their side.
Sure, they are relatively slow when compared to the rest of your army, since they can't run, but their wraithcannons will cut though anything like a hot kinfe through butter. Their range is short (30cms), however, so they will most likely be assaulted after their first round. That's when the Wraithlord comes in handy, and the Seer can make them more durable granting them the Sight of Future (repeating armor saves). Tanks fear them also.
It's a point sink, but if you make good use of covers and give your enemy more urgent things to shoot at, they will reach his lines and obliterate them.

Bishop Rook
13-07-2009, 16:00
Why can't they run?

Vedar
13-07-2009, 16:00
I've dropped my reapers since 5th came out. Most people know how to deal with them and as you can't move them if you want to fire.

Quite often they are sitting ducks.

The are a prime target for a drop pod full of marines.

I've been running 2 WL and 3 War walkers. War Walkers while fragile can bring the pain. Add guide to their shooting and watch things disapear. Nothing says you go away now like 24 STR6 shots. Flank march them for more wackiness.

Exia Angel
13-07-2009, 16:06
If you plan on taking a full compliment of heavy support, I would reccomend the holy trinity of reapers/wraithlord/falcon.

I've used this in the past, and more than any other category, it causes opponents to concentrate so much firepower on these three things, that the rest of your army has a good chance at doing its job, because the big guns will be on these three.

Yeah, maybe he'll take a few shots at a wave serpent, or a footslogging unit of aspects, if you use any in that fashion, but these three are the jaw-droppers.

However, my opinion differs on the Reapers, from what I've read. I never saw much of a plus to taking a tempest launcher with two guys for backup. Its too small a squad, though it CAN deliver a punch. I think it's wasteful to take a squad JUST for its exarch. Personally, even in a 1500 point game, I take an exarch with E. missile launcher and fast shot, and 4 reapers. The exarch doesnt concentrate on tanks, actually, not unless there's nothing else to shoot. Plus, with two shots, and a choice of plasma blast, or krak missiles, you can't really go wrong. This will wipe entire units off the board in fell swoops, while it lives.

-Exia

Dr.Clock
13-07-2009, 16:45
Right on, Exia... I've been playing like this for ages...

I fondly remember having to 'agree to disagree' with Irisado about reaper exarch armament some time ago.

I think really interesting things start to happen when eldar lists do not double up on HS choices. - I took the 'trifecta' approach in my last game and it worked like a charm - albeit at 3000 points.

Despite the fact that Reapers may not be as effective in 'killing things dead' as they once were, they remain a great scare-tactic unit.

Basically, with a well-rounded list, they can bottle up the enemy and control his movement so that your well-planned flanking maneuver can have the most effect.

Area-denial is, to me, as important a role for the reapers as is their ability to deliver a long-range punch.

217 points IS alot to pay for five models, though...

I will also concede that without a considerable infantry detachment to begin with, Reapers aren't that great...

For a 2000 point list, leave the Reapers out if you plan on taking more than 2 tanks.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Killboss
13-07-2009, 17:12
2000 points and he is not using tanks? Defilers, maybe?
He doesn't have them, he's using what he has now, so he can learn and expand accordingly, it seems that's what our GG does... we get some stuff to start an army (and never think to ask for advice first) and then salvage what you critics say is horrible.... yet, we always have fun.

If you plan on taking a full compliment of heavy support, I would reccomend the holy trinity of reapers/wraithlord/falcon.

I've used this in the past, and more than any other category, it causes opponents to concentrate so much firepower on these three things, that the rest of your army has a good chance at doing its job, because the big guns will be on these three.

Yeah, maybe he'll take a few shots at a wave serpent, or a footslogging unit of aspects, if you use any in that fashion, but these three are the jaw-droppers.

However, my opinion differs on the Reapers, from what I've read. I never saw much of a plus to taking a tempest launcher with two guys for backup. Its too small a squad, though it CAN deliver a punch. I think it's wasteful to take a squad JUST for its exarch. Personally, even in a 1500 point game, I take an exarch with E. missile launcher and fast shot, and 4 reapers. The exarch doesnt concentrate on tanks, actually, not unless there's nothing else to shoot. Plus, with two shots, and a choice of plasma blast, or krak missiles, you can't really go wrong. This will wipe entire units off the board in fell swoops, while it lives.

Well, i've got some things to say about every paragraph.
P1 1) Reapers, Wraithlord and Falcon'd be great, but i dont have a Falcon.

P2 1) That's actually a worry, he's toting 4 oblits, some plasma and melta marines... so the fire they'll attract will mess them up more then a warhound titan can mess up a grot.

P3 1) These famous 3 will be KO'd most likley by turn 2 or 3 which leaves me heavy weaponless and very vulnerable.

P4 1) Who said anything about just 2 guys? I'm planning the full, famous 5.

P4 2) I agree with you on the DR thing, people keep putting them down the list, but i want to use them ,they're one of my new purchases, and have performed good for me (plus there's that court of the young king im building... who doesn't want all those aspect warriors with twin linked guns?)

P4 3) But the main concern that (well, it seems everyone but us has) is the cover saves. Now tell me, seeing as you use them so often, how do they fare with such things?

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but i mean, the list im vsing is pretty high with potential bullet-magnet takers (i hate vsing oblits.)


Quite often they are sitting ducks.

The are a prime target for a drop pod full of marines.

I've been running 2 WL and 3 War walkers. War Walkers while fragile can bring the pain. Add guide to their shooting and watch things disapear. Nothing says you go away now like 24 STR6 shots. Flank march them for more wackiness.
3 things.
1) That's why they sit back in relative safety... in cover where nothing will get to them.... except DSing thing... but i have my ways....

2) The drop pod/whatever is no real worry, there'll be Oblits, and 1 rhino, that's all that'll get to them. (But i think they'll be to occupied to do anyhting...)

3) So i take it your vote is to go with 2 mystery equiped Wraithlords (tell me in a later post ;).... seriously... don't leave me hanging.) and the Mystery equiped WWs? Which i think you'll be voting for Scatter Lasers? (again, tell me later.)

If you're not going to use Reapers, and have the spare points, I have been using lately a VERY strong flank:
10 Wraithguards + Warlock + Farseer + at least one Wraithlord advancing by their side.
[QUOTE]
I will probably be using Reapers. I'm using all 3 slot becuase, although my Eldar army is almost apoc size, that comes from characters and Heavy Support... so i need point fillers, but i don't have wraithguard and the question was about HS... Although, when i do get wraithguard, im definatly trying this ;)
[QUOTE=Irisado;3760523]Crack Shot only works on the Exarch, and I have recently booted the Dark Reapers out of my 2000 point list (which faces Marines nearly all the time) because the standard Dark Reapers were not inflicting enough casualties, and were too reliant on the Exarch and his Tempest Launcher to cause harm.

There is nothing especially wrong with taking one Fire Prism, incidentally, it's just that taking two is better :).
2 things.
1) I've only used the Dark Reapers in 2 battles before (the abover mention apoc game and a completly crappy Tau one.) So, they're probably going in, unless your top 3 have better reasons then curiosity, AP, Cover ignoring and the chance to demolish an exposed unit.

2) About the Fire Prism.... That's not what you've said in your responses to my lists ;)

Harfaern
13-07-2009, 18:59
He doesn't have them, he's using what he has now, so he can lear and expand accordingly, it seems that's what a GG does... we get some stuff to start an army (and never think to ask for advice first) and then salvage what you critics say is horrible.... yet, we always have fun.

Ok ok...I was just asking, not criticising in anyway: You ask for help and I just gave my 2 cents. I was just curious about a 2000 points CSM army without vehicles; but you explained it, plain and simple. :rolleyes:

Irisado
13-07-2009, 19:02
2 things.
1) I've only used the Dark Reapers in 2 battles before (the abover mention apoc game and a completly crappy Tau one.) So, they're probably going in, unless your top 3 have better reasons then curiosity, AP, Cover ignoring and the chance to demolish an exposed unit.

Immediately this tells me a lot.

Apocalypse is not at all representative of regular games of 40K, so I think your experience of Dark Reapers in that game can be well and truly put to one side in my view.

As a result, you are effectively basing your evaluation of Dark Reapers on one game.

I've used Dark Reapers in every edition of 40K, and they are really nothing more than an Exarch delivery system at the moment in my experience, unless you are playing on a board with minimal terrain.

The other issue is that while the Exarch can fire indirectly, the rest of the squad cannot, so what tends to happen is that your opponent will shoot the Dark Reapers to pieces very quickly, leaving your Exarch on his own for much of the game.

I do like Dark Reapers, and they still can be useful in 2000 point games, but I feel you are placing far too much emphasis on their AP ability, and not taking sufficient account of how much cover hinders their effectiveness.

If you want to use them to create a fire lane, then this tactic is still viable, but I feel that you can create fire lanes with other units far more cheaply.


2) About the Fire Prism.... That's not what you've said in your responses to my lists ;)

I can't remember what I have said about your lists in the past (I review so many army lists I can't keep track), but I will check :).

EDIT: Below are my remarks in your last list about the Fire Prism:


The Fire Prism is over upgraded, and not needed in my view. You have enough anti-infantry fire, and it's not reliable enough to be used for anti-tank in my view. Fire Prisms also work better in pairs.

The reason, therefore, for my not recommending it was that you already had sufficient anti-infantry firepower in that particular list, so it wasn't really adding anything. You will also note that I didn't say that one wasn't viable, rather I just remarked that taking two would be better :).

deggaroth
13-07-2009, 21:45
I have found that 2 Wraithlords and 3 Warwalkers with Scatterlasers make very good heavy support options if your force has any type of footslogging elements in it. If you have an Avatar, I would definitely recommend taking at least dual CC Wraithlords because they tend to make a triumvirate that people tend to be more scared of then they should be.

I find that SL Warwalkers are very effective when paired up with a couple squads of bladestorming dire avengers. This more or less gives my opponents too many targets to worry about, meaning that I will always have something shooting the living pooh out of his infantry.

If you have any mech elements in your list, you could also switch one of the above out with the prism. It may not do as much damage, but it will do enough damage, and definitely give your opponent another target to think about, giving your aspect warriors more chance of a successful mech assault. What I like to do is take a squad of banshees in serpent with doomseer, a squad of firedragons in serpent, and the prism to stay a little behind and support, which makes another fairly scary triumvirate.

As Irisado has said dark reapers are not very good in fifth ed since everybody and their brother seems to have a 4+ invulnerable save granted by cover. I tend to sometimes take them anyway, because, being primarily a biel tan player, I love aspect warrior themed armies, but they generally never make their points back. If you must take them, be sure to give them an exarch with tempest launcher and crack shot at the very least.

Exia Angel
13-07-2009, 23:35
P4 3) But the main concern that (well, it seems everyone but us has) is the cover saves. Now tell me, seeing as you use them so often, how do they fare with such things?



I'm not totally sure what you're talking about with the reapers. Do you mean how enemy units get cover saves? or how the reapers get cover saves?

It'd be easier for me to just handle this blanket coverage right now.

Here's my thinking on the two different builds for reapers, and allowing/disallowing cover.

If you take a tempest launcher, which can be used to 'mortar' reaper shells onto a target, and use it for those blasts, yes, you can potentially use either two blast templates with no cover saves due to crack shot, or three templates with a bit of wild-firing. BUT, if you rely on no LoS, then you sit there with at least two ineffective reapers. This is wasteful to me, but it will mean that you are actually likely to target units [I]because[I] you can't see them. Later turns MIGHT see you using the full unit as targets are thinned. This is the number one liability of the tempest launcher: limited use of the UNIT, and reliance on the Exarch. This is actually one of my rules of thumb to eldar aspects: if you take a unit ONLY for the exarch/s abilities and wargear, without putting the rest of the squad to use, you have wasted the unit, the points, and will likely wind up with a dog's breakfast.

If you take an E. missile launcher, you rely on direct fire, but the whole unit chips in. so look at what you have there. with fast shot, you get either two S4 AP4 pinning blasts, which are nice against everything but marines, chaos, and necrons, or two krak shots, all but guaranteed to hit and wound at AP3. Crack shot is of less use with this gun IMHO. it helps with the blast especially, which most armies would rely on cover for, but the AP3 Krak shot does its work without this power. The liability with this build is that you need direct LoS to units, and this would be potentially disastrous in a CoD game, and potentially, your reapers are exposed.

Now, cover. In a regular game of 40k, given the usual sort of terrain, hills, craters, and ruins, you have a good chance of getting LoS on at least 1/3rd of the infantry. An assault oriented opponent is just going to have to face you at some point, regardless, and a shooty one needs fire lanes as badly as reapers do. I honestly don't see a lot of players making good use of cover, there's always something to fire at. I view going to ground as an advantage for me, when an opponent does this for a few reasons.
1.) his unit will be inactive for a turn.
2.) his unit will STILL likely take some casualties.
3.) because of 1, I can concentrate on other 'active' units, buying me time.

So, all that, I THINK answers your question, and if I missed it completley, rephrase and I'll check back.

I have one thing to say, in defense of a big squad of reapers, and this delineates my whole combat philosophy, and is just my opinion. The best way to demoralize and obliterate an enemy, in anything, is to deliver the most destructive blows in the shortest amount of time. I translate that in warhammer as maximizing the amount of fire, and the potential lethality of it, at the best level of reliability and accuracy attainable. Simply put, war walkers and reapers are "devastator units." I like reapers because of their background, the special plusses to their weaponry, namely the AP and exarch skills and weapons (they're all good in their own way, really, and I'm not badmouthing the use of a tempest completley) and the fact that you buy one box, and your unit is complete. You have to spend something like $35 per war walker, and they're only maximally effective in a trio.

Whew! Hope that helped!

-Exia

Irisado
14-07-2009, 10:43
If you take a tempest launcher, which can be used to 'mortar' reaper shells onto a target, and use it for those blasts, yes, you can potentially use either two blast templates with no cover saves due to crack shot, or three templates with a bit of wild-firing. BUT, if you rely on no LoS, then you sit there with at least two ineffective reapers. This is wasteful to me, but it will mean that you are actually likely to target units [I]because[I] you can't see them. Later turns MIGHT see you using the full unit as targets are thinned. This is the number one liability of the tempest launcher: limited use of the UNIT, and reliance on the Exarch. This is actually one of my rules of thumb to eldar aspects: if you take a unit ONLY for the exarch/s abilities and wargear, without putting the rest of the squad to use, you have wasted the unit, the points, and will likely wind up with a dog's breakfast.

I agree with the point that the Exarch delivery system is a bad idea, but I'm going to turn around your reasoning somewhat and argue that the Tempest Launcher is still a better choice than the EML if a player wants to take Dark Reapers.

The role of Dark Reapers is one of MEQ killing. They are not really designed to kill hordes, and they are definitely not an anti-tank unit. Bearing this in mind, the Tempest Launcher is an excellent MEQ killer, so it fits with the battlefield role of Dark Reapers much more than the EML does, thus I would argue that taking the EML results in the squad's role becoming even more confused, and potentially redundant than it would if the Tempest Launcher is chosen.

Plasma Missiles are not powerful enough against MEQs, while one Krak Missile has far less potential to kill multiple MEQs than the Tempest Launcher and can tempt players into firing at tanks, which wastes the firepower of the regular Dark Reapers, so the EML is not a good choice for the Dark Reaper Exarch in my opinion.


If you take an E. missile launcher, you rely on direct fire, but the whole unit chips in. so look at what you have there. with fast shot, you get either two S4 AP4 pinning blasts, which are nice against everything but marines, chaos, and necrons,

I've added emphasis to the key part of this quote, and this is precisely the problem with the EML. It does not help this unit against the very squads it is supposed to be most effective against. Even if you fire the Krak Missile in combination with Fast Shot, the damage potential is still less than the Tempest Launcher.


Now, cover. In a regular game of 40k, given the usual sort of terrain, hills, craters, and ruins, you have a good chance of getting LoS on at least 1/3rd of the infantry.

I'm not sure how you've worked that figure out. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it seems a bit optimistic to me.

Killboss
14-07-2009, 15:30
Now, cover. In a regular game of 40k, given the usual sort of terrain, hills, craters, and ruins, you have a good chance of getting LoS on at least 1/3rd of the infantry. An assault oriented opponent is just going to have to face you at some point, regardless, and a shooty one needs fire lanes as badly as reapers do. I honestly don't see a lot of players making good use of cover, there's always something to fire at. I view going to ground as an advantage for me, when an opponent does this for a few reasons.
1.) his unit will be inactive for a turn.
2.) his unit will STILL likely take some casualties.
3.) because of 1, I can concentrate on other 'active' units, buying me time.

So, all that, I THINK answers your question, and if I missed it completley, rephrase and I'll check back.

You have to spend something like $35 per war walker, and they're only maximally effective in a trio.

Whew! Hope that helped!

-Exia
That answered my question, and more :D
Here in Australia, its actually $50 per WW. :sigh:
The bolded text is very true.
I know i deleted it, but a thing no one ever (seriously, i've NEVER EVER) seen anyone say this, but Crack shot lets you re-roll wounds as well.

I have found that 2 Wraithlords and 3 Warwalkers with Scatterlasers make very good heavy support options if your force has any type of footslogging elements in it. If you have an Avatar.

I find that SL Warwalkers are very effective when paired up with a couple squads of bladestorming dire avengers. This more or less gives my opponents too many targets to worry about, meaning that I will always have something shooting the living pooh out of his infantry.

As Irisado has said dark reapers are not very good in fifth ed since everybody and their brother seems to have a 4+ invulnerable save granted by cover. I tend to sometimes take them anyway, because, being primarily a biel tan player, I love aspect warrior themed armies, but they generally never make their points back. If you must take them, be sure to give them an exarch with tempest launcher and crack shot at the very least.

Oh yeas, i've got footsloggers...
I use that combo of DA and SLWW often, very often.

Im a Biel-Tan player as well, hence the court of the young king im building :D

That is the least i take fo my exarch (i don't care what you guy's say about that, its the way i play.) About our terrain setup, im often told to stop putting terrain down, so we don't have "too many cover saves."

Ok ok...I was just asking, not criticising in anyway: You ask for help and I just gave my 2 cents. I was just curious about a 2000 points CSM army without vehicles; but you explained it, plain and simple. :rolleyes:
Yeah, sorry for that, it was worded bad, and i can see how someone would think of it as an attempt to bite your head of. It wasn't; it was just badly worded.


I do like Dark Reapers, and they still can be useful in 2000 point games, but I feel you are placing far too much emphasis on their AP ability, and not taking sufficient account of how much cover hinders their effectiveness.

The reason, therefore, for my not recommending it was that you already had sufficient anti-infantry firepower in that particular list, so it wasn't really adding anything. You will also note that I didn't say that one wasn't viable, rather I just remarked that taking two would be better :).[/i]

Grr, know-it-all chapter master.... grr (jk) <--- About the Fire prism thing ;)

So, i take it you're disagreeing with the Dark Reapers?
And i know how muck cover reduces their killing ability, by 50% (for a 4+ cover save.)

Irisado
14-07-2009, 19:21
Grr, know-it-all chapter master.... grr (jk) <--- About the Fire prism thing ;)

There are loads of Chapter Masters who know a lot more than I do, but of course it's the Farseers who really know everything ;).


So, i take it you're disagreeing with the Dark Reapers?
And i know how muck cover reduces their killing ability, by 50% (for a 4+ cover save.)

If you want a Biel Tan list, and you think you can create fire lanes with them, then you are playing a large enough points total to take the Dark Reapers, but just be aware that they may not cause as much damage as you expect them to.

Exia Angel
14-07-2009, 21:20
->Irisado. The '1/3 of his units' bit isnt statistically based upon anything but my own experiences. It's not an absolute, or always the case, but I tend to find it workable.

Also, I'm not really saying the tempest is a bad gun either, I just prefer the accuracy and versatility of the missile launcher. REALLY, that was my preferance of the weapons choices. I also tend not to like barrage and ordnance, and prefer direct fire.

My opinions are just that. and no-one should treat them as fact or a bible to work off unless they find my opinions true or workable.

->Killboss. Yeah, you're right about crack shot. It seems that unless you're talking FD Exarch with a flamer, that's a different thing altogether.

Good luck with your army by the way! I hope we've all helped.

-Exia

PS: I considered writing up a new eldar tactica(in the tactica thread, of course), based on my experience. I've never done one before, but if anyone here is interested, let me know, give me some ideas on what to cover, and I'll whip one up!

Irisado
14-07-2009, 21:26
PS: I considered writing up a new eldar tactica(in the tactica thread, of course), based on my experience. I've never done one before, but if anyone here is interested, let me know, give me some ideas on what to cover, and I'll whip one up!

A few people have written a few mini-tacticas within the Eldar Tactica, so if you want to add one, by all means feel free.

There is already a substantial guide to the Eldar in fifth edition (link via my signature), but different opinions can certainly be expressed in the Eldar Tactica thread (that is part of the reason for its existence after all :)).

shin'keiro
14-07-2009, 22:25
3 x Wraithlords with starcannons and flamers is your answer

Killboss
15-07-2009, 07:40
There are loads of Chapter Masters who know a lot more than I do, but of course it's the Farseers who really know everything ;).


If you want a Biel Tan list, and you think you can create fire lanes with them, then you are playing a large enough points total to take the Dark Reapers, but just be aware that they may not cause as much damage as you expect them to.

Ah Irisado... you make me laugh :D

I don't want a Biel-Tan list per se, i just love the colour scheme, but i also love Aspect warriors and, of course, the Avatar. The only guadians i have are motor heads (Jet bikes) and my WW pilots, so i figure that it suits Biel-Tan according to its Codx fluff.

So, your 3 are what? DRs, if i think i can targets, and what other 2....?


3 x Wraithlords with starcannons and flamers is your answer

The only problem is, i only have 2 so that isn't doable.

Poseidal
15-07-2009, 08:57
Are you a mostly mechanised / fast biker list?

If so, I recommend the Prism (which can keep up) and the War Walkers, who with scout and a long range can out flank and fire which offers quite a reasonable support for it where Wriathlords are left behind due to being slow, so their advantage in fighting is lost somewhat and they have less firepower due to expense than the War Walkers.

fengor
15-07-2009, 09:07
I always make a point of fielding Dark Reapers if i can. Although i dont own an exarch with the Tempest Launcher (just a conversion with a EML) i have pretty good results with them.

I do have to admit that this is due to psychological metagame with my standard opponent. He plays Black Templar and in our very first game his Champion surged forward and my Reapers annihilated him in the very first round. Ever since then there are only 2 reactions to them from him: total ignorance (which is essential forcing him to refuse the flank they are on) or total annihilation when he throws everything he has aginst them (and fortuned reapers in heavy cover can survive a lot).

So yesthey are expensive but due to the reactions they provoke i find them invaluable.

Irisado
15-07-2009, 10:52
Ah Irisado... you make me laugh :D

I aim to please ;).


I don't want a Biel-Tan list per se, i just love the colour scheme, but i also love Aspect warriors and, of course, the Avatar. The only guadians i have are motor heads (Jet bikes) and my WW pilots, so i figure that it suits Biel-Tan according to its Codx fluff.

So, your 3 are what? DRs, if i think i can targets, and what other 2....?

In normal circumstances in a mixed list, I would recommend the dual Wraithlord with EML and Brightlance approach, but given that you have stipulated you won't be facing enough tanks for these to be necessary, you are looking at anti-infantry options.

These boil down to War Walkers with Scatter Lasers and/or Fire Prisms.

If the opposition is Chaos, a pair of Fire Prisms would be quite handy, but if you don't have two of them, then I don't think fielding one is so useful. It's a reasonable choice, but it's not going to be as effective as it would be if it had a partner.

War Walkers with Scatter Lasers are a reliable way of laying down plenty of anti-infantry fire support, so if you expect to face few tanks and a lot of infantry, I feel these may be your best bet.

I hope that helps.

Killboss
15-07-2009, 13:48
Are you a mostly mechanised / fast biker list?

If so, I recommend the Prism (which can keep up) and the War Walkers, who with scout and a long range can out flank and fire which offers quite a reasonable support for it where Wriathlords are left behind due to being slow, so their advantage in fighting is lost somewhat and they have less firepower due to expense than the War Walkers.

I have neither, i actually have a footslogging list (a bad move i know, but i never thought of buying a transport early on, and will have to get some soon.)


I always make a point of fielding Dark Reapers if i can. Although i dont own an exarch with the Tempest Launcher (just a conversion with a EML) i have pretty good results with them.

I do have to admit that this is due to psychological metagame with my standard opponent. He plays Black Templar and in our very first game his Champion surged forward and my Reapers annihilated him in the very first round. Ever since then there are only 2 reactions to them from him: total ignorance (which is essential forcing him to refuse the flank they are on) or total annihilation when he throws everything he has aginst them (and fortuned reapers in heavy cover can survive a lot).

So yesthey are expensive but due to the reactions they provoke i find them invaluable.

Ah.... thank you. Finally someone who is strongly FOR DRs.



I aim to please ;).



In normal circumstances in a mixed list, I would recommend the dual Wraithlord with EML and Brightlance approach, but given that you have stipulated you won't be facing enough tanks for these to be necessary, you are looking at anti-infantry options.

These boil down to War Walkers with Scatter Lasers and/or Fire Prisms.

If the opposition is Chaos, a pair of Fire Prisms would be quite handy, but if you don't have two of them, then I don't think fielding one is so useful. It's a reasonable choice, but it's not going to be as effective as it would be if it had a partner.

War Walkers with Scatter Lasers are a reliable way of laying down plenty of anti-infantry fire support, so if you expect to face few tanks and a lot of infantry, I feel these may be your best bet.

I hope that helps.


Well, he is talking about using a defiler (a proxyed SG.) So maybe a Wraithlord with EML/Lance is a way to go.

So.... WWs, EML/Lance Wraithlord, and Fire Prism?

Irisado
15-07-2009, 16:51
Well, he is talking about using a defiler (a proxyed SG.) So maybe a Wraithlord with EML/Lance is a way to go.

So.... WWs, EML/Lance Wraithlord, and Fire Prism?

It's not as simple as that :).

The Defiler has good front armour, so you would really require two Wraithlords with an EML and Brightlance to guarantee taking it out, so I would suggest dropping the Fire Prism if you want to take Wraithlords.

If you don't like the dual Wraithlord idea, then I would suggest trying to find ways of shooting at the Defiler's weaker armour with strength six weapons, such as Scatter Lasers, and not going down the Wraithlord route.

Killboss
15-07-2009, 19:40
It's not as simple as that :).

The Defiler has good front armour, so you would really require two Wraithlords with an EML and Brightlance to guarantee taking it out, so I would suggest dropping the Fire Prism if you want to take Wraithlords.

If you don't like the dual Wraithlord idea, then I would suggest trying to find ways of shooting at the Defiler's weaker armour with strength six weapons, such as Scatter Lasers, and not going down the Wraithlord route.

So, its now x2 Wraithlords with EML/Lance and the WWs? Hmmm.... maybe this would have been easyer as a poll....

Exia Angel
15-07-2009, 22:36
For other choices, I'd probably reccomend a Falcon first. The pulse laser, plus the choice of second gun, and back-up transport unit, gives versatility for not horrible points. You could gear it up with a bright lance or EML for tank hunting, or throw on the scatter laser, or star cannon for troops.

Remember I mentioned the 'Holy Trinity' earlier? Well, if you take reapers, a wraithlord, and a falcon/fire prism, you have maxed out heavy support, but add some flexibility. I also wouldn't personally reccomend using two wraithlords, unless you have psykers nearby. Not that this happens often, but that could leave you with two highly experienced and deadly war constructs pausing to remember that they were supposed to TiVo their favorite episode of The Jeffersons that night, in the same turn.

-Exia

Irisado
16-07-2009, 10:38
For other choices, I'd probably reccomend a Falcon first. The pulse laser, plus the choice of second gun, and back-up transport unit, gives versatility for not horrible points. You could gear it up with a bright lance or EML for tank hunting, or throw on the scatter laser, or star cannon for troops.

I see no need to take a Falcon. It makes for a pretty lousy gun boat, due to its BS, which in particular means it shouldn't be equipped with expensive one shot weapons, such as the Brightlance, in my view.


Remember I mentioned the 'Holy Trinity' earlier? Well, if you take reapers, a wraithlord, and a falcon/fire prism, you have maxed out heavy support, but add some flexibility.

There is a fine line between focus and flexibility, and I feel that taking one of each heavy support option damages the focus of an Eldar list too much, since the different choices mean that the heavy support doesn't really have an identifiable role, meaning that it can be less effective than it could be if it were more focused.


I also wouldn't personally reccomend using two wraithlords, unless you have psykers nearby. Not that this happens often, but that could leave you with two highly experienced and deadly war constructs pausing to remember that they were supposed to TiVo their favorite episode of The Jeffersons that night, in the same turn.

Warlocks leading Guardian squads can easily babysit a couple of Wraithlords, while even the Farseer can look after two of them, providing you don't mind his/her movement being restricted as a result, but much will depend on army composition as to whether this is possible here.

One Wraithlord does not cut the mustard against AV12 or higher though, hence why I recommend taking two.

Killboss
19-07-2009, 20:58
I see no need to take a Falcon. It makes for a pretty lousy gun boat, due to its BS, which in particular means it shouldn't be equipped with expensive one shot weapons, such as the Brightlance, in my view.


Warlocks leading Guardian squads can easily babysit a couple of Wraithlords, while even the Farseer can look after two of them, providing you don't mind his/her movement being restricted as a result, but much will depend on army composition as to whether this is possible here.

One Wraithlord does not cut the mustard against AV12 or higher though, hence why I recommend taking two.

Admittadly, my army probably isn't the best composed... But here it is
HQ
Avatar,Farseer (+3 warlocks) and Autarch

TROOPS
10 Dire avengers.
10 Dire avengers.
5 Rangers
3 guardian jetbikes (squad in progres)

FAST ATACK
6 Swooping Hawks
5 Warp Spiders

ELITES
6 Striking Scorpions
10 Harliquins

HEAVY SUPPORT
2 War Walkers
Wraithlord
Wraithlord
Fire Prism
Dark Reapers.
Now im not asking for a list, but this may help with any sinergy worries.

Irisado
19-07-2009, 21:32
Given that you don't list any Falcons or Wave Serpents, you are basically looking at a footslogging list led by the Farseer and, optionally the Avatar, with a core of Dire Avengers and Rangers, supported by Striking Scorpions in the counter assault role, Wraithlords for anti-tank, and possibly War Walkers for more anti-infantry fire (depending on the points you have available), then either Warp Spiders for mobile shooting harrassment (not to be used in close combat), or the aforementioned Dark Reapers.

If it were me, I would opt for the Warp Spiders, but it's not my list, so the choice is yours, and you have plenty of advantages and disadvantages to weigh up from the contributions already posted in this thread.

I would definitely avoid fielding the following units:

Guardian Jetbikes (too small a squad, so they are an easy kill point), Harlequins (expensive, brittle, and have background issues), and Swooping Hawks (suffering from an identity crisis and are very hard to use well as a result).

I hope that helps.

Exia Angel
20-07-2009, 01:38
Swooping Hawks (suffering from an identity crisis and are very hard to use well as a result).


I have to disagree here.

Hawks have multiple uses, and they can be good at all of them. This doesn't mean that they are blunted on each one. I don't believe there's a single aspect in the Eldar army that is useless, or nerfed.

1.Harassment. This is my preferred tactic, and it's seen off hordes of guard, ork mobs, and marines alike. I take an exarch with intercept and a sunrifle, and 5 regular hawks. that's 16 S3 AP5 shots, at 24" range,(6 of which can cause pinning) from a highly mobile unit. Mathhammer guys can figure-figure all they want with this, but I've seen it work out so many times, I don't care to argue with them. This is great for taking out units of infantry at range, and being able to zip off and target something else quickly. Take that squad of snipers or troops sitting on the enemy objective in a C&C mission. The grenade pack, plus the ability to dart up, fire 16 shots, and move off will weaken, if not kick off the board, a number of units in a turn or two, while providing safety to the hawks. I take intercept as a personal choice to get the most out of haywire grenades, plus the fact that its only 5 points.

2.Bouncing Betty. Obviously, this is just taken to DS, use grenades, and fly off, making for an annoying unit that is hard to kill without leveling TONS of firepower at it. I actually don't use this, because I think use 1 and 3 are more effective.

3.Close Combat. Spiders are better for this use, given a 3+ armor save, and better weapons options for the troops and exarch (powerblades, S6 A2 weapons) But an exarch with a power weapon, and a decent sized squad can use grenades, get close, level shots, and charge in dealing MASSIVE damage in a single turn, if used correctly. You would want a larger squad for this, 8-10 strong, but the number of shots, plus grenades( a turn before, of course), plus charge attacks and a power weapon will leave any unit at least severely discouraged.

I actually prefer hawks to spiders for one reason only: counterattack.

Spiders have to be close to make use of their weapons, or risk a second warp jump to get away. The chance that they get into CC is all but certain, unless you risk casualties. Hawks give the option for distance, and a standoff fight, whereas spiders are basically there to pop up out of nowhere, shoot, and then charge (with a 12 inch range, you either plan to get close, or plan to be charged, one way or the other.)
I just prefer the fluidity myself.

-Exia

Irisado
20-07-2009, 10:17
Hawks have multiple uses, and they can be good at all of them. This doesn't mean that they are blunted on each one. I don't believe there's a single aspect in the Eldar army that is useless, or nerfed.

I didn't say they were useless, and the word 'nerfed' is not one which exists in my vocabulary, so neither apply to my previous statement. I merely stated that the Swooping Hawks are hard to use well.


1.Harassment. This is my preferred tactic, and it's seen off hordes of guard, ork mobs, and marines alike. I take an exarch with intercept and a sunrifle, and 5 regular hawks. that's 16 S3 AP5 shots, at 24" range,(6 of which can cause pinning) from a highly mobile unit.

It doesn't matter how many wounds you cause with a pinning weapon, your opponent still only has to take one pinning test, and with all the high leadership around these days, it's an unexpected bonus for an opposing unit to fail a pinning test, so this isn't something you can rely on.

Next, if you really want to use the Hawks for this, I suggest really investing in the squad, taking the full ten models, and committing yourself. A squad of six is neither here nor there, since the low strength of the weapons simply means that they really don't cause that many wounds against most armies.


This is great for taking out units of infantry at range, and being able to zip off and target something else quickly. Take that squad of snipers or troops sitting on the enemy objective in a C&C mission. The grenade pack, plus the ability to dart up, fire 16 shots, and move off will weaken, if not kick off the board, a number of units in a turn or two, while providing safety to the hawks. I take intercept as a personal choice to get the most out of haywire grenades, plus the fact that its only 5 points.

All of this sounds very optimistic to me, since reprisals will tend hit Hawks quite hard, unless you constantly yo-yo with them, which is a very unreliable tactic, unless you have an Autarch in your list, and even then it's not something I would recommend.

As for Intercept and Haywire Grenades, the fact that glancing hits can no longer destroy vehicles has made the Swooping Hawks far less effective in the tank hunting role.


2.Bouncing Betty. Obviously, this is just taken to DS, use grenades, and fly off, making for an annoying unit that is hard to kill without leveling TONS of firepower at it. I actually don't use this, because I think use 1 and 3 are more effective.

This is the yo-yo tactic I referred to above.


3.Close Combat. Spiders are better for this use, given a 3+ armor save, and better weapons options for the troops and exarch (powerblades, S6 A2 weapons) But an exarch with a power weapon, and a decent sized squad can use grenades, get close, level shots, and charge in dealing MASSIVE damage in a single turn, if used correctly. You would want a larger squad for this, 8-10 strong, but the number of shots, plus grenades( a turn before, of course), plus charge attacks and a power weapon will leave any unit at least severely discouraged.

Swooping Hawks do not make for a good assault unit at all in my view. Note, I'm not saying that Warp Spiders do either, but Swooping Hawks tend to suffer more due to their inferior save.

Yes, you can shoot before assaulting, but this is true of any Eldar unit, and mass Warp Spider fire will trump mass Swooping Hawk fire against any unit in terms of its strength, and this is crucial when it comes to causing wounds.


I actually prefer hawks to spiders for one reason only: counterattack.

Spiders have to be close to make use of their weapons, or risk a second warp jump to get away. The chance that they get into CC is all but certain, unless you risk casualties.

Not at all true in my experience. You can simply Warp Jump over intervening terrain, which prevents the Spiders from being assaulted by most opposing units, since the need to move through terrain means that they will not make it more often than not.

Another factor you are forgetting is support. If attacking with Warp Spiders, or any other Eldar unit for that matter, in isolation, you are asking for trouble, whereas if you have sufficient support for the Spiders they can usually get away with a Warp Jump, and avoid being assaulted quite easily.


Hawks give the option for distance, and a standoff fight, whereas spiders are basically there to pop up out of nowhere, shoot, and then charge (with a 12 inch range, you either plan to get close, or plan to be charged, one way or the other.)

Warp Spiders are much better off being used for hit and run shooting attacks, not assaults, so I don't understand why you keep making such a big deal out of this assault issue. It's a problem if they Deep Strike, I concur, but this is why I don't recommend teleporting the Spiders. If you just deploy them normally it is relatively easy to keep them out of close combat in my experience.


I just prefer the fluidity myself.

Which is fair enough, and I'm not saying Swooping Hawks are totally useless, but they are very hard to use well, and do not compare favourably with Warp Spiders overall.

R3pr3ssor
20-07-2009, 15:43
Im abit doubtful with Wraithlords for CC as he'll have a nurgle chaos lord.... they equal pain against a wraithlord.

unless he takes a power fist, a nurgle chaos lord cannot get past strength 4, as only the undivided daemon weapon gives str5. if he does take a power fist a WL would go first, and probably do 2 wounds before he hits back.

Its obviously your choice, but I think that combat wraithlords do really well against meqs, and if he has no tanks that means more regular marines to bog down and kill (asuming the champiosn dont have fists.

eyescrossed
20-07-2009, 22:17
unless he takes a power fist, a nurgle chaos lord cannot get past strength 4, as only the undivided daemon weapon gives str5. if he does take a power fist a WL would go first, and probably do 2 wounds before he hits back.

Uhh...........

Nurgle Daemon Weapons give the wielder 3+D6 Power Weapon Poisoned (4+) attacks, not charging. I think my Lord and his Termies would munch a Wraithlord pretty easily.

On average, a Chaos Lord with one of these babies causes 2 Wounds on a Wraithlord, NOT on the charge.