PDA

View Full Version : Are wee seeing the last days of WFB?



FallenScholar
13-07-2009, 16:01
A simple question: Not a rant.

Have the lack of balance and the lack of general fluff killed WFB in general?

Views, Observations?

Fallen Scholar

DDogwood
13-07-2009, 16:14
WFB got its start without any general fluff. The published background turns off as many people as it attracts, IMO - there are plenty of people who want to develop their own background or want to create high-fantasy battles in their favorite settings, and WFB is just another tool for doing that.

The imbalance of the recent army books is annoying, but it's nothing new - the 4th Ed. Undead army was a bad matchup for almost anything, steamrolling over almost any opponent but able to be defeated by a single champion with a cheap magic item (the Black Gem of Gnar). There have always been armies that were too strong or too weak compared to the "average".

The big advantage that WFB has is that it's still the 300 lb gorilla of fantasy wargaming. There are plenty of other games out there, but if you want to collect just one army and find an opponent with relative ease, you have to play WFB. Even other relatively popular games, like Warmachine, are behind WFB in terms of popularity (not to mention that they usually feature a more specialized aesthetic and a narrower approach to gaming style).

So, no, I don't think so.

Tokamak
13-07-2009, 16:23
A simple answer, not a rant: No.

Draconian77
13-07-2009, 16:25
At an (unlikely)worst we would simply see a change of ownership, the game itself will continue.

loveless
13-07-2009, 16:31
Just seeing the last days of 7th Edition, not the game itself. I'm hoping the design team pays enough attention to customer complaints that they make 8th Edition a stronger ruleset, with Army Books of equal strength to the core rules.

Lordy
13-07-2009, 16:32
Agreed with Draconian, the product itself is far too good for someone not to buy even if the worst did happen.

I'm still loving my Warhammer but the price increases along with some poorly balanced armies and lack of enthusiasm and common sense in FAQ's is abit disheartening.

Condottiere
13-07-2009, 16:36
WFB dies when no one even bothers to rant about it's shortcomings.

Tae
13-07-2009, 17:21
WFB isn't going anywhere.

Sure it's far, far from perfect, but it will survive. The metagame will eventually change.

BigBossOgryn
13-07-2009, 18:13
I hope threads like this show GW (because I know they read this ****) that their 'beautiful game' is drowning in a pool of it's own filth. That pool consists of a lack of balance, stupid *********** rules that wreck the game too often and a refusal by GW to actually advance the fluff of their game.

The fact that large targets can be shot even when you can't see them at all makes no bloody sense at all. But congrats GW because all you are doing is unconvincing people from buying those nice overpriced large figures you make.

Bolt throwers and cannons change trajectory when they hit the side of a unit!? I know GW thinks very highly of themselves but they don't dictate the law of physics.

Thanks to GW's twisted notion of 'balance', armies have to include units and characters that they don't want to just to compete. Fighting VC's and HE's? Haven't got about 8 dispel dice and as many scrolls as possible? Good game mate, you loose.

ogretyrant
13-07-2009, 18:24
I'll have to agree with Big boss with this one, they really need to change some of the more obvious rules and it aint fun when you gotta tailer your army to fight another one because if you dont youll get ripped to shreds. What I would like ta see is the army books comming out either all at the same time to get better balance( Iknow this will not be possible) or closer together to achive a better ballance.

rtunian
13-07-2009, 18:30
I hope threads like this show GW that their 'beautiful game' is drowning in a pool of it's own filth.

melodrama...
you're doin it right!

BigBossOgryn
13-07-2009, 19:19
Hardly melodrama, it just sounded a bit better than:
WFB is starting to suck ass

kaubin
13-07-2009, 19:20
The game is fine around here, people are playing it more than they were during 5th and 6th edition. I think that the problem is only that some of the armies haven been upgraded to 7th edition yet, and they decided to up the level of the game for 7th. They would have been better off holding off the releases until all the books are ready, but that would have taken a lot of time :S This way they can also combat some problems people are seeing with the current armies and try to adjust it with the books coming out.

parus_ater
13-07-2009, 19:29
Is the end near? Mmmmmmmmmmmmmno!

Griefbringer
13-07-2009, 20:02
I think it is not the time to start investing in those "The End is Nigh" t-shirts.

parus_ater
13-07-2009, 20:03
Funny how these kinds of threads are tolerated by the mods but if you open a thread lampooning them it gets shut down INSTANTLY, or it that just with me?

antin3
13-07-2009, 20:15
I don't think this is the end of WFB at all but I do wonder if we will see a major change or reworking of some of the basic rules. I know that the die-hards at my FLGS are still playing it but it is nowhere near as popular as it was when I first joined the club. One long-time fantasy player, who only played WFB, recently broke down and bought a black reach set and started marines. We were all shocked a bit by this. He still playes WFB but he is really disheartened by what the game has become.

HK-47
13-07-2009, 20:16
No it's not ending we are just in the transition for 7th edition to 8th edition. Hopefully when 8th is published we will see some of the more outlandish stuff brought into balance.

I see right now as growing pains, GW tinkering around with the rule set to found out what there going to change and what's staying.

rtunian
13-07-2009, 20:20
Hardly melodrama, it just sounded a bit better than:
WFB is starting to suck ass

"i wasn't being melodramatic, i was merely using emotional hyperbole to punctuate my point!!"

lol... http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/melodrama

Peril
13-07-2009, 20:23
Acting! Genius!

Creeping Dementia
13-07-2009, 20:52
Is WFB dying? I'm not really sure, I know we have less people in my area that play Fantasy now than we did in 6th. My group of friends still have their armies and everything (my Lizards are still sitting in the closet in their foam trays), but I haven't played a game of Fantasy in about 18 months. We all play 40k now and it seems to be growing, we enjoy it more than we used to enjoy WFB, but at least we're still playing GW stuff.

I don't get the feeling that WFB is dying though, maybe it's just shrinking.

The Red Scourge
13-07-2009, 20:56
They cancelled off the "End Times", and the champion prophesied to end the world had to go home and brood about the apocalypse, so thats a no-no :D

DDogwood
13-07-2009, 21:03
I think that the problem is only that some of the armies haven been upgraded to 7th edition yet, and they decided to up the level of the game for 7th.

That's part of the problem, but they've also created (or perpetuated) some other, deeper problems in the game. For example, the "magic heavy" armies like VC or DoC are overpowered against armies that don't go heavy on counter-magic, but aren't much fun to play with or against if they try to lighten up on the magic themselves. That's a design flaw.

loveless
13-07-2009, 21:09
That's part of the problem, but they've also created (or perpetuated) some other, deeper problems in the game. For example, the "magic heavy" armies like VC or DoC are overpowered against armies that don't go heavy on counter-magic, but aren't much fun to play with or against if they try to lighten up on the magic themselves. That's a design flaw.

Warhammer Fantasy's Magic Phase is a design flaw...in 7th at least. It's in my top 5 list of complaints about the game - it's ridiculously all-or-nothing, and expensive for utterly random results.

Lord Malorne
13-07-2009, 21:11
I agree, the end times will be marked by poor spelling and the smell of urine

Cookie for anyone who notices this secret message: My real name is Jimbert!!!1111!!!!

Jim

I want that cookie!

Anyway, no I don't think its the end, though its not as inspirational as it once was, but that may be time thats altering our perceptions...man.

DDogwood
13-07-2009, 21:13
Warhammer Fantasy's Magic Phase is a design flaw...in 7th at least. It's in my top 5 list of complaints about the game - it's ridiculously all-or-nothing, and expensive for utterly random results.

Yeah, it replaced the previous design flaw, Warhammer Magic, in 4th and 5th eds, which had the solitary advantage of being expensive and optional, and therefore not used very much.

The game is a lot better without magic, but good luck convincing most 6th and 7th ed players to play a "no-magic" game, especially if they're using a FotM army.

dwarfhold13
13-07-2009, 22:38
i don't think it will ever die really.. there is a reason it's been around for 30+ years.
the company on the other hand (and there are other threads on this) may or may not falter, but the game would be bought up by someone and still produced in some form.. the only thing i hope is that it would stay somewhat true to its roots and not get over simplified.. just keep all your books and keep playing the current ed. if or when anything ever happens.. i know people that still pull out their books for 2nd ed. 40k and have a retarded long game every now and then
Jon

g0ddy
13-07-2009, 22:45
Matter of perspective...

WFB is the best Ive ever seen it.

and so is 40k.

~ zilla

Lord Malorne
13-07-2009, 22:46
I would love your perspective!

kaubin
13-07-2009, 23:21
For the moment the magic is a flaw, but nothing tells us the other army books about to come out won't have something to even out the playing field. for all the complaining it gets, Ring of Hotek keeps magic away from certain key units you want to save, for very low points...now if they develope similar, cheap and effective magic defense in the other army books, magic should stop seeing the problem that it is right now.

Alric
13-07-2009, 23:54
Is WFB dying? I'm not really sure, I know we have less people in my area that play Fantasy now than we did in 6th. My group of friends still have their armies and everything (my Lizards are still sitting in the closet in their foam trays), but I haven't played a game of Fantasy in about 18 months. We all play 40k now and it seems to be growing, we enjoy it more than we used to enjoy WFB, but at least we're still playing GW stuff.

I don't get the feeling that WFB is dying though, maybe it's just shrinking.


This has been the trend for years.

WFB rules need a big trimming starting with the magic. The best thing they could do with magic is simplify it by eliminating all magic spells except for 4 battle magic spells and 4 army magic spells to choose from.

cornixt
14-07-2009, 00:02
Blood Bowl was left in the wilderness by GW for years, but the fans gathered, playtested it to a nice stable and balanced ruleset, GW suddenly realised what they had lost and stepped in to help officialise it all, added newer rules, further playtesting, etc , and now you have a fully balanced game with free rules and models available from several sources. If fantasy went this way...

HunterSkunter
14-07-2009, 00:04
By the Mayan calenders, WFB is done in 2012. John Cusack has forseen it.

Cherrystone
14-07-2009, 00:08
WFB rules need a big trimming starting with the magic. The best thing they could do with magic is simplify it by eliminating all magic spells except for 4 battle magic spells and 4 army magic spells to choose from.

Im the opposite to that, i want more spells and options, i love variety and lovely random elements that WFB always throws up, the games are fun(ny) and varied unlike the dryness of 40K (though i do enjoy the game).
I love the huge list of spells in 3rd edition!!!

The spell lists just need to be more balanced and (inparticular the 8 main lists) more flavourable, ommiting most of the shooty spells (except for fire).

I feel WFB is dying this year because of the huge lack of releases and support this year and 7th edition has had nothing new over 6th except for mighty empires (and that didnt have a full indepth rulebook in it), but hopefully next year will be a vast improvement.

txamil
14-07-2009, 00:10
I think it's on the south slope. It is no longer evolving and growing, the minis are no longer in a class by themselves, they have had terrible luck expanding the license into video games or card games, and new companies like Privateer Press are starting to eat away at targetable groups of players within wfb. Can you imagine what's going to happen when Hordes and Warmachine hits critical mass in the UK?

The business model they got doesn't work anymore and they don't have the guts or finances to try something new.

Havock
14-07-2009, 01:18
This has been the trend for years.

WFB rules need a big trimming starting with the magic. The best thing they could do with magic is simplify it by eliminating all magic spells except for 4 battle magic spells and 4 army magic spells to choose from.

That or using *gasp* common sense when assigning the order, effect and casting value of spells.
That and the base lores would have sufficed. Really, everything is in there.
Ok, so we get necromancy and high magic as 'speshul'.

Everything else can just dofire, death, beats or whatever.

The one thing I really liked about the WoC get-you-by list was that Tzeentch casters simply picked their lore. Combine it with a +1 to cast and that would have been -fine- to me, especially with the +1 to ward. More interesting than 'lol gateway'.

WHat is ruining it for me is the increase in 'lol, leadership'-armies. Also, the fluff rewind is a massive cock-up IMHO.

Ludaman
14-07-2009, 01:29
I'd say it's not. I think GW is getting the hang of it's business a little better these days: closing down unnescissary stores and releasing boxes and metals that people acually want and need. However I agree that the rules as they stand are jacked. It's kinda like playing in 5th edition these days where if my Bret lord on emperor dragon got into combat with your best unit/character and I dealt the 16 wounds he usually did without armor saves then you lost... if I didn't, you won... not good times. All this was fixed in 6th edition for the most part with only a few really frustrating armies to play still nothing like it is right now. I sincerely hope 8th gets it right... I just really, really wish they'd just release the books online as pdf's and allow for updates... it's almost 2010, Kids can use the internet...

Souppilgrim
14-07-2009, 01:34
I hope threads like this show GW (because I know they read this ****) that their 'beautiful game' is drowning in a pool of it's own filth. That pool consists of a lack of balance, stupid *********** rules that wreck the game too often...

Give me one rules change you want to try and I'll give you 100 people who would rather string you up to die than change that "horrible" rule. Some people want more complexity, some want simplification in areas. It's all perspective.

I'm all for complaining about balance, and price, but the core rules are pretty decent even if I don't like a few things.

TheDarkDuke
14-07-2009, 01:39
No.

As for the balance issues, IMO they are based around certain lists, not armies in general. Heck I played a game against DE with my Ogres and had my first loss, keep in mind I did some really dumb things, like the idea of "I wanna see my slave giant fight that hydra!" Also I will only briefly mention the not paying close enough attention to the DE Hatred rule, and let the DE player re-roll ever miss to hit all game long in cc. Yea the game was probably a draw or minor victory to me if not for these two issues.

Also lets look at 40k for an example, they have streamlined the rules and the balance is well amazing for about 80% of things, the problems occur with very old codex. Fantasy has the same old army book problems, but a far more intricate rule set, so of coarse it will take a considerable amount of time and effort to have it reach the equality 40k has seen. For the most part I think they are still going in the right direction, Empire, High Elf, Vampire Counts, Daemons, Dark Elf, Warriors of Chaos and Lizardmen are the most competitive armies with more then just 1 or 2 army list builds, and surprise surprise they are the newest books! Once the weaker or fallen behind armies get their time in the lime light the entire playing field will be much better. For a comparison of why fantasy comes across as "broken" to people compared to 40k, here is a list of armies needing updates for competitiveness based on the entire book not just one or two builds:

Fantasy:
BoC
TK
Skaven
O&G
Bret
Ogres
Dwarves

40K:
DE
Necron
DH
SW

One can argue that in Fantasy WE and Empire need to be added to that list while in 40k one may argue Nids and at the extreme Tau or SoB(due to age). So the sheer amount of armies needing updated is the biggest problem but one time will vastly improve as we can knock two of those armies off the list in the next what 4-6 months?

g0ddy
14-07-2009, 02:44
I would love your perspective!


Just remember to smile :p

~ zilla

Sarah S
14-07-2009, 02:57
The game is the best it's been in years.

People whining about Daemons/Dark Elves/Vampires simply must not remember the days of opponents packing up and going home when Skaven, Brets or Wood Elves hit the tables.

Swings and roundabouts. Big deal, it's always fun, whether I bust out my Ogres against Vampires or my Daemons against Dogs of War.

g0ddy
14-07-2009, 03:49
/agrees with sarah

~ zilla

antin3
14-07-2009, 04:44
I think it's more than that Sarah S. I'll admit that I have more experience with 40k but tha is only because I have been playing it regularly in a club setting for about a year now. I get in the occasional fantasy game. But I have been in this hobby for about 15 years now going back and forth between both systems. I remember Skaven and Brets and Wood Elves but for whatever reason I don't think it had the impact that it is having now.
As I stated before one of our regulars in our club who was a complete die-hard fantasy player has backed off of it for now and is playing 40k. Our regular WFB players hardly ever show up to play, and these aren't kids these are grown men who have invested a lot of time and money into their armies. The one die-hard I spoke of has about every army in WFB. Lately I have seen our club president playing introductory games of 40k to three of our WFB players.
I am not sure why but it just seems that for whatever reason WFB has hit some hard times, worse than I have ever noticed. Now maybe that is just in my area, but from what I read here and on other sites it just feels that way. I have soem ideas on why, again this is just me throwing stuff out there. I am not trying to start flaming.
I know that many WFB players shoot down the "simplified" ruleset of 40k. But I think many of them haven't played a game with the latest edition, the addition of objectives really adds much to the game. Yes the core rules are streamlined compared to WFB but with objectives and deployment it adds so much to the game. But I know that this is an arguement I won't win, just my perspective.
I sometimes wonder also if the whole fantasy setting is taking a hit, I read a lot and it is mostly fantasy, there is a strong feeling among fantasy readers that something besides the tradional fantasy plot line is needed. Ala G.R.R. Martin, whose fantasy series is immensely popular. Now maybe I am getting off on a tangent and reading way too much into that but maybe not. Maybe people are a bit burned out with fantasy at the moment.
Finally it seems that GW just hasn't supported fantasy lately, the last issue of WD with all of the Empire goodenss in it was about the only issue I can remember that had a good deal of fantasy content. I mean where are the fantasy armies this year? When was the lst army released? Lizardmen I think, how long ago was that. 40k constantly has new codexes(sp) coming out, if not that then different ways of playing the game, Cities of Death, Planet Strike etc. Where is the support for fantasy and maybe more importantly why has there been this lack of support?

Alathir
14-07-2009, 05:00
No, not at all.

It's as fun as people make it and some people around here seem determined to make it as little fun as possible. Two of my three gaming friends play Dark Elves and Vampires and I have never come up against a list that I've gone 'okay, that is ridiculous'. All the games are plenty fun, it really just depends on the person using the army.

Personally, I just want to see more support behind WHFB from GW, the fact we don't have current siege rules is pretty shocking. If I was coming to this game, one of the draws would be the idea of having huge castle sieges.

NecroMaster
14-07-2009, 05:22
The balance supposedly comes when you use special characters. Thats what GW is pushing for. They want people to have to use special characters to help balance the game. This is what a store manager told my friends and I. Its a marketing ploy really.

ogretyrant
14-07-2009, 05:44
Give me one rules change you want to try and I'll give you 100 people who would rather string you up to die than change that "horrible" rule. Some people want more complexity, some want simplification in areas. It's all perspective.

I'm all for complaining about balance, and price, but the core rules are pretty decent even if I don't like a few things.

Eh, he gave you two I believe. One about large targets beign seen behind cover (true line of sight needed here IMO), and one about redirecting cannons and bolt throwers (come on ppl they cant ignore the laws of physics!).

Gekiganger
14-07-2009, 07:44
The balance supposedly comes when you use special characters. Thats what GW is pushing for. They want people to have to use special characters to help balance the game. This is what a store manager told my friends and I. Its a marketing ploy really.

A marketing ploy to stop people buying core troops so they can spend their money on higher point cost individual models? Doesn't seem like the best money making scheme to me. Downplaying characters + magic would be the best marketing ploy in terms of sales surely as it gets more core troops bought.


I remember Skaven and Brets and Wood Elves but for whatever reason I don't think it had the impact that it is having now.

As I stated before one of our regulars in our club who was a complete die-hard fantasy player has backed off of it for now and is playing 40k.

SAD had more complaints than most of these so called magic heavy armies imo.

Also, take into account that your regular has had to sit through the last edition and this editions so called broken parts. This one may be the one that broke the camels back, but it doesn't mean it was the biggest blow.

I'm finding fantasy a bit neglected on the input from GW side and agree that many rules could use fine tuning, but if you enjoy the game then it was time well spent, and if you are NOT enjoying the game then give it a break for a while otherwise it stops being a game and starts to become a chore.

Ludaman
14-07-2009, 08:33
As I posted before: I honestly think the only thing GW needs to do to get things going the right direction for fantasy again is have regular updates to rules on the website. If an army comes out that is just plain shutting down other armies all they'd need to do is have some "tournament rules" updates posted online to correct it. I used to play magic, and that damn DBZ cardgame and if a card was released that broke the game, they'd say "our bad" and make a couple updates to the tourney rules to correct it. I mean why the heck not? What was their reason last time "No one wants to have to memorize a bunch of extra online rules" well sure maybe not a 12 year old playing for the first time. But every adult who's ever played any kinda tournament sure as hell does. I have never and will never play skaven, but I have the whole list memorized along with most of their magic and magic weapons. why? because I like to be involved in my hobby, and I like knowing what I'm up against. I can sure as crud remember if they ban certain magic item combos, or lower the point cost of a certain unit by 1. honestly how many of us couldn't or wouldn't want to? Ahhhhg it seems so simple, why not make your customers happy? why not? WHY NOT?!?! ok sorry rant over...

Fredmans
14-07-2009, 08:53
I think the easiest way to re-vitalize WHFB would be to replace the Pitched Battle with something like the 40K or Epic:A objectives systems. That is my biggest wish for 8th edition. In my opinion, I have to agree with the OP, WHFB is on a downhill slope and introducing more extreme builds or special characters is not helping.

/Fredmans

Aladauqs
14-07-2009, 10:02
I would say it's certainly not as balanced as 6th edition. The transition from 5th to 6th worked quite well (when it was eventually finished) because 'Herohammer' was pretty effectively phased out. Towards the back end of 6th ed, ie, before Dwarfs were released, I think it was a pretty level playing field in regards to most armies. Now, though, it seems GW are taking the supposedly 'underpowered' armies and making them overpowered, like HE and DE.

My hope is that eventually everything will balance itself out again, as most things eventually did towards the end of 6th. I try not to complain that much, given that my most frequent opponents at my local club are a non-cheesy dwarf player, a wood elf player and a chaos dwarf player, all of which are relatively fair (and beatable armies) to play with my beastmen. Thankfully I haven't come up against a Dark Elf army yet but I imagine I'll probably change my tune when I do.

shabbadoo
14-07-2009, 10:12
I think WFB will not go away, but LotR is surely sucking at the marrow of WFB's customer base for now. 40K doesn't have to deal with this sort of internal competition of course, so it coems of as having a much more vigorous customer base. Once LotR goes away, which doesn't look to be anytime soon, WFB ought to recover some of its audience. WFB is still popular enough though, and GW will want to maintain a fantasy miniature line as the LotR license will end eventually.

DDogwood
14-07-2009, 13:21
People whining about Daemons/Dark Elves/Vampires simply must not remember the days of opponents packing up and going home when Skaven, Brets or Wood Elves hit the tables.

Or they remember the days when Skaven and Bretonnians were balanced, and Wood Elves were terrible.

Ixquic
14-07-2009, 13:37
In my local store the Fantasy scene is dead. Around the end of 6th edition and beginning of 7th there were lots of people but lately they've all basically quit and now it's just these four guys that come in and play 2v2 battles every weekend.

BirchbarktheAncient
14-07-2009, 13:50
If GW dies it will be due to their own stupidity and arrogance towards both the hobby itself and more importantly, their customers. When your company has nothing but cocky 20 somethings running your stores on the front line, it is inevitable that people are going to be turned off, especially the vets who have to deal with their arrogance. These same 20 somethings are not there because they want to work for the company as a career, but because they want a discount on their hobby while they're going to school or something like that. This devil-may-care, nonchalant attitude has only contributed to the lack of effort, enthusiasm, and general lack of desire for customers to remain loyal to these knuckleheads. The hobby will more than likely not last too far beyond 8th edition. GW will either be bought out or will die on the vine due to their outrageous prices. Now I don't want to see my hobby die, but I'd love to see them humbled. If for no other reason, than to understand that it was their vets who brought them to the dance.

Nuada
14-07-2009, 13:53
I think the easiest way to re-vitalize WHFB would be to replace the Pitched Battle with something or objectives systems.

yeah they're doing both for 8th, should be good :)

Regarding interest in WHFB it just depends on your location/situation i guess. Out of my friends that wargame 11 play warhammer, and six are 40k. None of us do any store games, we're not in a wargames club, a few do tourneys now and again. We're not that serious about the hobby, which probably helps.

Someone mentioned it was more balanced ages ago. I don't think it was. From what i remember high elves and dwarfs ruled 3rd ed. High elves would hit first with GW's, and you could kit out almost your whole army like that.

DonkeyMan
14-07-2009, 13:53
Well, I think a few of the fluff developments ruined it kind of for me (well and the rules of course)

Right now I'm far happier with the Warmachine/Hordes fluff (better rules too).

Is it dying? No.

Awilla the Hun
14-07-2009, 14:36
Is it dying just as Glorious Comrade Von Stahl has found enough counts as models for a proper game?

No, Comrades! This is just the talk of liars and counter revolutionaries, (alll in the pay of the Grand Reactionary Karl Franz, and his Capitalist Imperialist allies, of course.)

Whilst the Games Workshop Collective has its flaws, and its systems of warfare are doubtless unhinged, our Glorious Leader has discovered mostly genteel, polite allies and enemies. (Apart from The Tzeentch Player. He will pay.) He has every confidence that things will improve. Similarly, the opressed proletariat under the GW Bourgeois Executives are, in his experience, of largely good character.

The game will continue: the game of making revolution (and war.)

He advises the Old Counter Revolutionaries who populate this thread to be more optimistic.

Lowmans
14-07-2009, 15:48
It's still a great game. Better imho than 40K.

As others have said even if GW went under (not currently on the cards), someone would buy them or the IP. It isn't the only game in town but it is close and easily the best established.

The stuff about balance I'm afraid I can't entirely agree with. As Nuada says the system has NEVER been particularly well balanced and I'm not sure if it's even GWs primary concern in the design process. I do agree it should be reasonably balanced but in practice certain lists and certain builds of those lists will always trump certain others. That's the price of having so many books with so many units and charcteristics. The payoff is variety and fluff.
This maybe frustrating if you are a very competitive player but WHFB was never really well designed for the purpose of strictly balanced play.
Unless the tournament is limited to a single Army Book for all players imbalance will occur. Though, it should also be remembered that 1000 points of, say, daemons may not be worth a 1000 points when compared to a different 1000 points of daemons.

Arnizipal
14-07-2009, 18:53
Funny how these kinds of threads are tolerated by the mods but if you open a thread lampooning them it gets shut down INSTANTLY, or it that just with me?The differnce is that you actively asked people to whine/troll/complain in you thread. This one is "officially" a discussion. ;)

Loved you overview through. I took the liberty of copying it for future reference.

InsideReticle
14-07-2009, 22:04
I don't think it will die, but 8th edition needs to get released and soon. I have been talking to my group about returning to 6th edition rules and books, and they are pretty receptive. It's my opinion that 7th edition tried to simplify things in the wrong places and ended up making WHFB way too complicated.

Even in some of the stronger lists (HE), you almost feel you need to take a dragon to be able to compete. Almost. Magic is practically pointless, since you could invest tons of your points in magic and roll miscasts every turn. It's happened to me.

So much about the game needs changed. I have the most fun when I have several infantry blocks and some cavalry support and am facing a similar set up across the table.

parus_ater
14-07-2009, 22:12
I don't think it will die, but 8th edition needs to get released and soon. I have been talking to my group about returning to 6th edition rules and books

But the 7th was less than three years ago! Sorry, but the 8th'll be a while yet.

With all due respect but you're not the first to talk about returning to the previous version, folk said the same thing about the 6th. and the 5th. Infact there's never been a new version of anything that someone hasn't said something similar.

The 2 Black Dragons
14-07-2009, 22:20
I personally love the 6th edition and the 7th was exactly what the doctor ordered a clarified and little better 6th edition game, which was fantastic until they started bringing out those ridiculous new overpowered rulebooks.

So just try playing 7th edition with the "old " 6th edition rulebooks it works fantastic.

Oh and the reason things are getting the way they are is because all those "oh, I wish I could play" Power ganers out there utilise their army book to the max. That is the real problem!

Play 1999 points games and see if win/ loose then all the time ;)

I have stoped playing Warhammer Fantasy, but because of the new rule books not the main rule that came out

Cherrystone
14-07-2009, 23:50
the 7th was exactly what the doctor ordered a clarified and little better 6th edition game, which was fantastic

Except for the pointless removal of some rules, i do prefere 7th edition over 6th but do continue to house rule in lapping around, snaking (and sometimes double pace for skirmishers) etc

If these were deemed 'too complicated for the kids' they should of been included as advanced/optional rules.

Agree with a above poster in that magic needs to be less dangerous/random as spending so many points on wizards and most games its difficult to even get a spell off in the first 4 turns or so, when its probably most vital.

Emeraldw
15-07-2009, 03:35
I personally love the 6th edition and the 7th was exactly what the doctor ordered a clarified and little better 6th edition game, which was fantastic until they started bringing out those ridiculous new overpowered rulebooks.

So just try playing 7th edition with the "old " 6th edition rulebooks it works fantastic.

Oh and the reason things are getting the way they are is because all those "oh, I wish I could play" Power ganers out there utilise their army book to the max. That is the real problem!

Play 1999 points games and see if win/ loose then all the time ;)

I have stoped playing Warhammer Fantasy, but because of the new rule books not the main rule that came out

uh....what? I don't know what kind of gamers you play with but the type in my area don't do that stuff and when I travel to my school, I don't encounter it there. Unless you play in Ard'Boyz style tournaments all the time, I find the whole "power gaming, WAAC" playstyle to be rather rare.

The new books are highly flexible for gaming and give you varieties of options. Now I admit there are OPTIONS in some books which are OTT when spamed or in combination but it still comes down to the player to reign themselves.

Trains_Get_Robbed
15-07-2009, 06:09
I believe WFB is dying in some aspects. The amount of people playing should be increased (As WFB is more worldwide than once was) But in respect to what's being played, armies played whether in the store or in groups are becoming limited. Prime example, in my group of buds I used to use my friend chucks spare empire before 7th ed. DE and Lizzes were released the games were fair and fun. Now however, I can no longer use chucks empire without getting my dignity ripped from me by either a super heavy magic or wicked CC. Either way i cant get empire to match up. (same goes for chuck when he plays or even my other friend chris and his dwarfs. lastly -and to the point- because of these beat downs not only am I finally getting my first army (woot) but chris is starting a new one as well both being "broken" (HE and VC) because we feel that we can't keep up with the other new released armies using the old 6th ed. Ones. So in a humble noobs opinion is WFB dying no, but certain races are and fast. In the end who wants to play a friendly game just to stomped on? If I wanted to lose to my friends this often and have no fun in doing so I would just let them be the Nazis and me the French, and we could reenact the taking of France in WWII. :(

Dungeon_Lawyer
15-07-2009, 11:47
If anything is killing this game its the outrageous price of the models. Its just getting too dam expensive to buy retail anymore. I wont do it. And if gamers dont support the stores/clubs, the game dies. Bring the price back down-Wasnt the conversion to plastic supposed to bring prices down? WTF happened?

Jim Bowen
15-07-2009, 12:01
Its nice to see people discussing WFB in a civilised way and not the anti GW ranting you see on other sites like TMP. Although I have not played WFB in ages I have read the 7th edition rule book, to me much of it seemed to make sense and was greatly improved from the 3rd edition(yes its been that long since I played) I do agree that its time Gw moved the background on there are only so many times you can resculpt the curreent ranges of figures, with the increase in plastic sets this will surely become redundant given the life span of a plastics mould. I hope GW weathers the storm and comes through with a better product but as ever you can't please everyone all of the time.

DDogwood
15-07-2009, 14:43
Wasnt the conversion to plastic supposed to bring prices down? WTF happened?

It did bring the prices down, sorta. When I started playing, almost everything was in metal. The only plastics you could get were boxes of 8 or 10 single-pose rank'n'file, for about $16 a box (High Elf archers & spearmen, Dwarf warriors, Empire halberdiers, Skaven clanrats who couldn't rank up, Wood Elf archers, Beastmen warriors, Chaos Warriors who also wouldn't rank up, Orc warriors, etc.). If you played Undead, who were one army, you could get multi-pose plastic hunchback skeletons, skeleton chariots, and skeletal riders.

Everything else was in blisters, usually 3 to a pack for $8, sometimes more for command groups and stuff. So, for most regiments, you didn't have a choice, and it would cost around $50 or $60 to get a full regiment of anything. That was around 16 years ago, and now you can get a full regiment of lots of different things, with multiple poses, for $40.

Phytrion
15-07-2009, 14:59
Man this thread must've migrated out of Other GW Discussion - if you venture in there you would think that GW is packing up right this very moment :D

I've been playing this game for 10 years now, and I remember when I first started I was reading Portent and fearing that this hobby I just got started in was going to be finished soon because "fantasy was dying." People argue it for different reasons, some of them valid, but ultimately - in your neck of the woods - it's up to you and your gaming group to make the game thrive.

There isn't a single GW store in my state, in fact I don't think there's one for 700 miles. We have all independent stores, but we have several large fantasy gaming groups. The big reason for success in this area is that we're able to keep attracting new players. When I started, I was the young high school kid - now I'm adult who's helping the curious high school kids to learn how to play. We make an effort to put our selves out there for new people to come check out. Our local big tourny - the March Hare - consistently get's 20+ players - we've had to put people on waitlists because we've run out of space to host them.

So for all the posts about people in your area up and leaving fantasy - that's going to happen. Your gaming group won't stay the same in terms of composition - several of our biggest, most die hard guys have packed up or moved on. If you want WFB to continue to be successful, you gotta help encourage other people to get involved. Then - you'll have even more people to join in with your griping about broken spells (Buboes, I'm looking @ you!), etc.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
15-07-2009, 15:56
Except for the pointless removal of some rules, i do prefere 7th edition over 6th but do continue to house rule in lapping around, snaking (and sometimes double pace for skirmishers) etc

If these were deemed 'too complicated for the kids' they should of been included as advanced/optional rules.

Agree with a above poster in that magic needs to be less dangerous/random as spending so many points on wizards and most games its difficult to even get a spell off in the first 4 turns or so, when its probably most vital.

I would get behind some advanced rules- especially some from Warhammer ancients. 'Fall back in good order', some mixed formations, partian shot and warbands would all add a lot of tactical choice to the game. Fall back in good order itself would help normal infantry face the increase in killing power we now see- though it would also increase the power of death star units. Of course, most units should have not just min. but also max. unit sizes [this is already the case with some unbreakable units like Slayers and Flagellants].

As for the overall question, I think fantasy is in a bit of dry spell [and that 7th edition is definitely a step back from 6th, but I like tactically complexity], but the game as a whole will survive [and would get a boost if some of the makers of a fantasy GW video game would do a better job (like Relic has done with both Dawn of War series). Ah, the hopes I had for Mythic and WAR, how bitterly you were crushed.]

Spider-pope
15-07-2009, 16:13
If GW dies it will be due to their own stupidity and arrogance towards both the hobby itself and more importantly, their customers. When your company has nothing but cocky 20 somethings running your stores on the front line, it is inevitable that people are going to be turned off, especially the vets who have to deal with their arrogance. These same 20 somethings are not there because they want to work for the company as a career, but because they want a discount on their hobby while they're going to school or something like that. This devil-may-care, nonchalant attitude has only contributed to the lack of effort, enthusiasm, and general lack of desire for customers to remain loyal to these knuckleheads. The hobby will more than likely not last too far beyond 8th edition. GW will either be bought out or will die on the vine due to their outrageous prices. Now I don't want to see my hobby die, but I'd love to see them humbled. If for no other reason, than to understand that it was their vets who brought them to the dance.

Feth knows what GW store you are visiting, because i have yet to visit a single one featuring the problems you describe and i know from experience that customer satisfaction is at the top of their lists when recruiting.

In my experience the amount of people playing WFB has peaks and troughs. At the moment its in a trough as its far from an edition update, and there hasnt been an expansion in a while. But when the next army/edition/expansion pops up i can guarantee that it will rise in popularity again.

wingedserpant
24-07-2009, 20:24
I'll have to agree with Big boss with this one, they really need to change some of the more obvious rules and it aint fun when you gotta tailer your army to fight another one because if you dont youll get ripped to shreds.

Maybe you do but I get on fine using the same army list for months at a time.

Nuada
24-07-2009, 22:52
Man this thread must've migrated out of Other GW Discussion - if you venture in there you would think that GW is packing up right this very moment :D

Yeah, totally agree. When i first started visiting GW stores about 25 yrs ago lots of the vet gamers were grumbling, and saying GW will last another 5 years at most.

Some of them used to say things like .."that's it i'm taking my money elsewhere" A statement that's meant to suggest that GW will collapse without their money.

About 10 years ago I knew of a few historical wargamers that hated warhammer ...then warhammer ancients came out and they love it. (it is great btw)

It's happens all the time.

meno1
27-07-2009, 13:15
From the point of view of a teenager -
I started off about 3 years ago, and immediately fell in love with the models. However going into high school i noticed that the new generation were more interesting in the blazing guns of 40K. Then came the disaster. Chaos was split, and formed into daemons and warriors. Rending my partly completed army into a shattered dream, I switched to 40K, as without the magic of the daemons to aid my Tzeentch warband of knights I lost interest. I believe that while some may play fantasy, the next generation is into 40K, and fantasy might have to lay dormant for awhile until a new generation picks it up again.

Another point is that i have never played a game of Fantasy through to the end with anyone save myself. It has always ended up with "well i spawned a human catapult" and models would start flying. Plastic ones only, of course. It just seemed that once the movement was over and the extensive combat had begun, interest had long faded. I also believe for Fantasy to be picked up again, the rules need a serious re-write.