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stonetroll
14-07-2009, 03:43
I posted a list about a week ago of a 2000 pt Bretonnian all comers list here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208868), but eventually I came to the conclusion that I didnīt like it because of itīs inability to deal with Big Nasty (Flyers). That list was quite like the one below, but had no Trebuchet and a Lord with another setup (Silver Lance instead of Virtue of Heroism) and included some archers and another unit of Fast Cav instead.

Please let me know what you think of this version:

2000

Characters

1 Bretonnian Lord @ 273 pts: Royal Pegasus, Heavy Armor, Lance, Cuirass of Fortune, Tres of Isoulde, Virtue of Heroism, Grail Vow
1 Paladin @ 124 pts: Army Standard, Barded Steed, Virtue of Duty, Wyrmlance
1 Damsel @ 130 pts: Steed, 2 dispel scolls
1 Damsel @ 125 pts: Steed, Dispel Scroll, Chalice of Malfleur

Core

8 Knights errant @ 201: pts Standard Bearer, Errantry Banner
8 Knights of the Realm @ 241 pts: Full Command, War Banner
6 Knights Errant @ 127 pts: Musician, Champion


Special

5 Mounted Yeomen @ 87 pts: Musician
3 Pegasus Knights @ 175 pts: Musician
3 Pegasus Knights @ 175 pts: Musician

Rare

5 Grail Knights @ 210 pts: Standard Bearer, Twilight Banner
1 Field Trebuchet @ 90 pts

1985 pts total


I have 1 pts left that I have no idea on what to do with (could add shields to Yeomen and a Muso to GK but that seems rather useless), so suggestions are welcome!

I think that this list is much better suited to treat with Big nasty (flyers) than my previous incarnation due to the change of the Lord setup and the inclusion of the Trebuchet. I know the Treb will not be hitting a whole lot, but it is more an area denial tool (same goes for lord btw as the chances of him actually killing something scare are not all that big). No one likes the chance of loosing his Star Dragon to a 90pt Peasant creation ;).

The biggest problems I see in this army list is the lack of redundancy (I will need all my knight units to do an effective charge) and an inability to protect the Trebuchet (everything else is meant to move forward).

/discuss

Kill-Freedom
14-07-2009, 04:46
Not a fan of peg knights, they seem to bonce off everything they charge

Reminds of a game i played against Dwarfs, 3 peg knghits charge a cannon, and couldnt even kill the crew, after 3 rounds of combat.......

stonetroll
14-07-2009, 07:17
The peg knights are primarily there to redirect and hunt warmachines, enemy flyers & fastcav. I think they perform very well in this role. Offcourse you may suffer from rubber lance syndrome every now and then, but I think on average they should be able to kill these units without much trouble.

hoya4life3381
14-07-2009, 14:32
Stonetroll:

Not a big fan of Trebuchet if you're not taking peasants or shooting phase to hold the table quarter and protect Treb.

1. I know you like to team GK lance (6) and small KE lance (6) together. You're big lance of KoTR (9) do suffer from fear. What if you switched it around and took a second unit of KE's (9) and a small unit of 6 KoTR? If the 6 KoTR don't pass a fear check it's not as big of deal as a full unit doesn't. I can see it both ways.

2. I'd take some archers because of the threat of light cavalry and units of flyers. Plus they are good against elves and cause fire against regenerating ogres.

3. You're Lord setup causes around .58 (.55 base before rerolling to wound from Cu) fatal blow wounds. The Cuirass of Fortune only increases you're chance by 3%. It's all question of how lucky do you feel since you only get one chance. Then again, I'm not sure a Bret lord kitted out Virtue of Audacity can win over 2 turns. Did you know that the pts cost for Virtue of Heroism setup is the same as Virtue of Knightly Templar setup? If you know you aren't going to be facing monsters, you can swap it out for some troop killy madness.

I've got two lists for you that are very similar to yours. I think we have very similar parameters for list making.

First List:

277 Lord with Royal Pegasus, Grail Vow, Virtue of Heroism, Cuirass of Fortune, Tres of Isoulde, Lance, and Shield

124 BSB with Wyrmlance, Virtue of Duty, Heavy Armor, Warhorse;

130 Damsel 2 Scrolls + Warhorse

125 Damsel Chalice + Scroll + Warhorse

201 8 KE + Full Command + Errantry Banner

241 8 KoTR + Full Command + Warbanner

120 6 KE

75 10 Skirmishing Archers + Braziers

65 10 Archers + Braziers

175 3 PK + Musican

175 3 PK + Musican

82 5 Yeoman + Musician

210 5 GK + Standard

Total: 2000 pts

Very similar to your list except I took the archer unit. Had to drop the music off the small KE to make it fit.

Second list:

288 Lord with Royal Pegasus, Heavy Armor, Grail Shield, Virtue of Audacity, Sword of Heroes, Grail Vow;

124 BSB with Wyrmlance, Virtue of Duty, Heavy Armor, Warhorse;

130 Damsel 2 Scrolls + Warhorse

100 Damsel Chalice + Warhorse

201 8 KE + Full Command + Errantry Banner

181 8 KE + Full Command

193 6 KoTR + Full Command + Warbanner

75 10 Skirmishing Archers + Braziers

65 10 Archers + Braziers

175 3 PK + Musican

175 3 PK + Musican

82 5 Yeoman + Musician

210 5 GK + Standard

*You can drop Full Command + Warbanner from KoTR unit for another Dispel Scroll and upgrade the non-skirmishing archers to Trebuchet!

Total: 1999

This list goes with the more standard Virtue of Audacity/Sword of Heroes setup. I also went with the second unit of KE for more ItP.
This setup is better against fear causers since you have 3 stronglances (2 KE + Grail) that are ItP. However, against non-fear causers it's a weaker setup since your 8 KE are not as effective as 8 KoTR with Warbanner (what you took) and the 6 KoTR with Warbanner may not be able to break a unit from front.

If you're facing off against magic heavy, you can drop the Warbanner from the KoTR and take another Scroll.

What do you think of the lists?

stonetroll
17-07-2009, 00:24
Hey Hoya,

Sorry for the late reply, but here we go:


Stonetroll:

Not a big fan of Trebuchet if you're not taking peasants or shooting phase to hold the table quarter and protect Treb.

Very true, this is exactly the reason I struggle at making a rounded list at 2000. I can fit 10 skirmishing archers, 10 archers and a treb in 2250, but I can not make it happen in 2k :s.

1. I know you like to team GK lance (6) and small KE lance (6) together. You're big lance of KoTR (9) do suffer from fear. What if you switched it around and took a second unit of KE's (9) and a small unit of 6 KoTR? If the 6 KoTR don't pass a fear check it's not as big of deal as a full unit doesn't. I can see it both ways.

I am no specifically a fan of teaming 6 KE and 6 GK, what I am a fan of, is having 2 big lances and 2 small lances in a 2k list. That way I can take 3 mdium targets (Big lance solo, big lance solo, 2 small lances) or 2 heavy targets (Big + small lance, Big + small lance).

About switching to 2 units of KE. I like the point you make about having another big unit of ItP knights, but what I am not so fond of is them being WS3/S5 on the charge. 8 WS3/S5 attacks is not very likely to have a very big impact, especially since they cannot take the War Banner that the KOTR are carrying. I think that the combination of increased Ld, increased WS and War Banner will outweigh the benefits of another ItP unit. Remember that altough they are more reliable due to ItP, they are also less reliable because of the Impetuous rule.

But as you said, I can also see the benefits of both.

2. I'd take some archers because of the threat of light cavalry and units of flyers. Plus they are good against elves and cause fire against regenerating ogres.

The problem is that Bretonnians have several weaknesses. One of those weaknesses is their vulnerability to diverters. Yes, archers are good at taking away some of the enemy diverters (either through shooting or because the enemy is using his diverters to get rid of the shooting).

Another problem of the Bretonnians is their vulnerability to big nasty (flyers). The trebuchet is not very likely to kill big enemy nasties on it's own, but combined with the monster killer lord, they should at least give the Bretonnian player a chance to threaten them.

The problem is fitting both Archers and a Trebuchet into a 2000 pt list without loosing too much combat effectiveness. This is why I struggle to make the 2k list. It's easy enough to do a 30 archer/Treb list at 2250, but I have not been able to do so at 2k. I am not sure if I can skip any of my combat units (if pushed, I might be dropping a unit of PK) in order to get a decent amount of firepower in there.

3. You're Lord setup causes around .58 (.55 base before rerolling to wound from Cu) fatal blow wounds. The Cuirass of Fortune only increases you're chance by 3%. It's all question of how lucky do you feel since you only get one chance. Then again, I'm not sure a Bret lord kitted out Virtue of Audacity can win over 2 turns. Did you know that the pts cost for Virtue of Heroism setup is the same as Virtue of Knightly Templar setup? If you know you aren't going to be facing monsters, you can swap it out for some troop killy madness.

I might make a miscalculation here, but:
4 attacks --> 2+ to hit --> 3.33 hits
3.33 hits --> 1/6 chance on KB --> 0.55555 KB (Also 0.5555 "1 to wound")
Without Cuirass --> 0.5555 chance on KB

With Cuirass:
0.5555 (same as without Cuirass) + 0.55555 * 1/6 (Chance that a 1 to wound turns into a 6 to wound) = 0.6481

Increasing my chance on a KB by ~10%! (0.0926)

Other than than that, I would prefer the Virtue of Audacity + Sword of Heroes combo if it wasn't for the return attacks. A Bret lord realistically only has one chance (during the charge) to do "his thing" or he WILL die himself (either pegasus kill + overrun or just plain stomping the general). That is the major drawback behind the Audacity + Sword combo imo.

Last, I will never ever swap a Virtue because I know my enemy is not using something.


I've got two lists for you that are very similar to yours. I think we have very similar parameters for list making.

We do indeed :)

First List:

277 Lord with Royal Pegasus, Grail Vow, Virtue of Heroism, Cuirass of Fortune, Tres of Isoulde, Lance, and Shield

124 BSB with Wyrmlance, Virtue of Duty, Heavy Armor, Warhorse;

130 Damsel 2 Scrolls + Warhorse

125 Damsel Chalice + Scroll + Warhorse

201 8 KE + Full Command + Errantry Banner

241 8 KoTR + Full Command + Warbanner

120 6 KE

75 10 Skirmishing Archers + Braziers

65 10 Archers + Braziers

175 3 PK + Musican

175 3 PK + Musican

82 5 Yeoman + Musician

210 5 GK + Standard

Total: 2000 pts

Very similar to your list except I took the archer unit. Had to drop the music off the small KE to make it fit.

Very similar indeed. The problem is... the archers will hardly help you deal with enemy monsters (same as the problem with a Treb is that it hardly helps you against diverters). For a rounded list, I would ideally have both a treb and at least 20 archers... but I have not found a way to make it happen yet.


Second list:

288 Lord with Royal Pegasus, Heavy Armor, Grail Shield, Virtue of Audacity, Sword of Heroes, Grail Vow;

124 BSB with Wyrmlance, Virtue of Duty, Heavy Armor, Warhorse;

130 Damsel 2 Scrolls + Warhorse

100 Damsel Chalice + Warhorse

201 8 KE + Full Command + Errantry Banner

181 8 KE + Full Command

193 6 KoTR + Full Command + Warbanner

75 10 Skirmishing Archers + Braziers

65 10 Archers + Braziers

175 3 PK + Musican

175 3 PK + Musican

82 5 Yeoman + Musician

210 5 GK + Standard

*You can drop Full Command + Warbanner from KoTR unit for another Dispel Scroll and upgrade the non-skirmishing archers to Trebuchet!

I am a bit afraid that 8 KOTR without the 2 bonus CR from the war banner will make them struggle against a lot of targets :s.

Total: 1999

This list goes with the more standard Virtue of Audacity/Sword of Heroes setup. I also went with the second unit of KE for more ItP.
This setup is better against fear causers since you have 3 stronglances (2 KE + Grail) that are ItP. However, against non-fear causers it's a weaker setup since your 8 KE are not as effective as 8 KoTR with Warbanner (what you took) and the 6 KoTR with Warbanner may not be able to break a unit from front.

Almost there! Now we have archers and the possibility for a Trebuchet. I think that in this list, the KOTR are very expensive for the impact they will have on the game 190+ pts for 6 knights means > 30 pts per knight. I am going to take this list and think about it very hard to see what I can do with it. Ideally I would try this:

Get a Treb
Make KOTR 8 and KE 6 again
Swap lord for KB setup

If you're facing off against magic heavy, you can drop the Warbanner from the KoTR and take another Scroll.

Never EVER tailor your liast after you know what you're facing mate ;). Wargaming etiquette rule no.1.



Interested in what you have to say on my comments!

hoya4life3381
17-07-2009, 01:31
I agree that Virtue of Heroism setup is you're best shot for a kill since you got to do it in the first turn.

The only way I think you can get the Treb. in is with this setup:

277 Lord with Royal Pegasus, Grail Vow, Virtue of Heroism, Cuirass of Fortune, Tres of Isoulde, Lance, and Shield

124 BSB with Wyrmlance, Virtue of Duty, Heavy Armor, Warhorse;

130 Damsel 2 Scrolls + Warhorse

100 Damsel Chalice + Scroll + Warhorse

201 8 KE + Full Command + Errantry Banner

241 8 KoTR + Full Command + Warbanner

120 6 KE

75 10 Skirmishing Archers + Braziers

175 3 PK + Musican

175 3 PK + Musican

82 5 Yeoman + Musician

210 5 GK + Standard

90 Trebuchet

Total: 2000 pts

1. You can obviously drop the small KE's but I figured that you're 2 small/2 large lance requirement of combat effectiveness is more important then magic defense.

2. We should check our Lord's pts setup. I think mine is correct but you should double check.

3. Dropping down PK's is also possible but that defeats the advantage of taking Pegasus on Lord.

What do you think of this setup?

stonetroll
17-07-2009, 02:02
Yay!

I think we are on the same line now! This seems pretty all round to me. If any more points could be spent I would attach a second unit of archers, but that seems impossible.

This list has, imo, enough combat potential whilst still threatening enemy monsters and diverters (though 10 shots is prolly not gonna do a whole lot, at least they can capture a table quarter and divert things away from the Treb).

The only things I would personally change is dropping the Muso from the Yeomen and giving it to KE. The Yeomen are fleeing more often, but I really couldn't care less about what happens to them after they have diverted a unit, whereas recycling the KE seems mor worthwhile. A matter of details imo and I dont think it matters a whole lot in the big picture.




1. You can obviously drop the small KE's but I figured that you're 2 small/2 large lance requirement of combat effectiveness is more important then magic defense.

I agree that the 2 large/2 small lance is probably as optimal as it can get without ignoring other areas.

2. We should check our Lord's pts setup. I think mine is correct but you should double check.

Yours is correct indeed. I keep messing up Armour of Agilulf (which includes a shield) and Cuirass of Fortune for some reason.

3. Dropping down PK's is also possible but that defeats the advantage of taking Pegasus on Lord.

With this list, I don't think there is a point to dropping the second unit of PK. The only thing worth adding instead is 2 units of archers. I know which I'd rather bring ;).

Edit: I think I will run the list below. Ideally I can find 2 or 9 points somwhere to give the big KE and/or the Yoemen musicians, but I can't see where to do so.


Characters

1 Bretonnian Lord @ 277 pts: Royal Pegasus, Heavy Armor, Lance,Shield, Cuirass of Fortune, Tres of Isoulde, Virtue of Heroism, Grail Vow
1 Paladin @ 124 pts: Army Standard, Barded Steed, Virtue of Duty, Wyrmlance
1 Damsel @ 105 pts: Steed, Dispel Scoll
1 Damsel @ 125 pts: Steed, Dispel Scroll, Chalice of Malfleur

Core

8 Knights errant @ 201pts: Champion, Standard Bearer, Errantry Banner
8 Knights of the Realm @ 241 pts: Full Command, War Banner
6 Knights Errant @ 127 pts: Musician, Champion
10 Peasant Bowmen @ 75 pts: Skirmishers, Braziers


Special

5 Mounted Yeomen @ 75 pts
3 Pegasus Knights @ 175 pts: Musician
3 Pegasus Knights @ 175 pts: Musician

Rare

5 Grail Knights @ 210 pts: Standard Bearer
1 Field Trebuchet @ 90 pts

2000 pts total

Edit 2:

I think you made a mistake with your damsels which confused me a bit:

Edit 2:


100 Damsel Chalice + Scroll + Warhorse


I assume she only has the Chalice seeing her point cost?

hoya4life3381
17-07-2009, 02:34
You're list is at 2000...you miscalculated the damsel with one scroll should be 105 pts. This makes the list 2000. If you need the extra scroll and are in an environment with lots of magic, drop the Warbanner for the scroll. I'm not saying you have to do it specifically against one person, but say in a tournie.

stonetroll
17-07-2009, 02:56
haha, gets confusing like this!

but list seems pretty darn sharp like this!

Dropping War Banner is optional indeed in a tourney, but in general I'd prefer the warbanner I think