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stonetroll
14-07-2009, 05:10
Consider this scenario:

My Bretonnian Lord on Royal pegasus (base size = 40*40mm)charges a Hydra (base size = 50*100 mm) in the front or rear (assume both handlers still alive).

In the BRB p 67 under "Monster & Handlers" it says:

"When charging or being charged though, the handlers are comletely ignored (as if they were not there) and the monster is the only model that matters."

blablabla

"Once the monster is in contact with the enemy, form the handlers up with the monster in the same way as you would for a unit of skirmishers. They will fight as normal in the ensuing fight."

So, since the handlers are completely ignored during the charge move, am I allowed to move the Bretonnian Lord to the middle of the base of the Hydra (following the rule to get as many models in contact as possible), thereby not touching the sides of the Hydra's base? This is important because it will prevent the handlers from ranking up with my lord and thereby I could evade the handlers' 6 attacks.

Or do I have to charge the Hydra in such a way that both handlers will eventually also end up in combat?

P.s. Sorry if this has allready been discussed, but the search function didn't find it.

Necromancy Black
14-07-2009, 05:14
It'll be the former, you can completely ignore the handlers and put a unit or single model with a smaller base size then the hydra in a position to stop the handlers getting into base-to-base contact.

I'm pretty sure this would also mean if you charged the unit and only a handler was in range it's a failed charge.

stonetroll
14-07-2009, 05:23
Cheers for the clear up! Something you can rely on with NB :).



I'm pretty sure this would also mean if you charged the unit and only a handler was in range it's a failed charge.

That could be rather crucial to remember! (Though it will unfortunately make the Hydra even stronger than it allready is :()

Necromancy Black
14-07-2009, 05:26
People may still argue with you though, rules are always open to interpretation, especially without examples :p

This however seems pretty black and white. In fact it's what causes the whole situation where a Hydra ignores terrain except when it charges.

Milgram
14-07-2009, 15:36
That could be rather crucial to remember! (Though it will unfortunately make the Hydra even stronger than it allready is :()

no, it doesn't. the handlers are also ignored when the monster charges, so there is no 'extended range' for the hydra. the only thing I could imagine would be to place the handlers so they block march movements of M4 troops standing directly in front of them while they cannot charge.

Necromancy Black
14-07-2009, 23:54
Run them along something like this:
xxxx
xxxx
xxxx h h H
xxxx
xxxx

An opponent might forget he can't charge the handlers and declare a charge on the hydra. Good piece of baiting for a counter charge (say, another unit in the flank)

Lordmonkey
15-07-2009, 10:14
An opponent might forget he can't charge the handlers and declare a charge on the hydra. Good piece of baiting for a counter charge (say, another unit in the flank)

I'd actually class that as taking advantage of my opponents ignorance of the rules. Still, it is astounding how much people forget!

Gazak Blacktoof
15-07-2009, 11:15
Can't you block the movement of a unit, by placing the handlers in front of it and placing the hydra so the unit can't legally charge it?

I wouldn't suggest anybody tries that in a game in case their opponent makes them eat their own hydra, but I think its possible.

Milgram
15-07-2009, 13:03
I wouldn't suggest anybody tries that in a game in case their opponent makes them eat their own hydra, but I think its possible.

yeah, but the body of the hydra could seriously harm the cervix while swallowing.

HereticLosMorte
15-07-2009, 19:57
yeah, but the body of the hydra could seriously harm the cervix while swallowing.

the cervix is in the vagina, so it getting hurt while swallowing is nigh impossible, especially if the person were to be male.

Milgram
16-07-2009, 00:33
well... female anatomy, the cervix uteri is behind the vagina. cervix is just latin for throat - while eather way, you got me with my rusted latin knowledge. :) it is not normally used as a noun to describe the throat but only as an adjective (cervical). ok, show-off is over. :D

Caboose123
16-07-2009, 01:06
These tracks appear to be well dusted...
:p

Arkalon
18-07-2009, 21:44
I disagree with some of the above. When you charge the Hydra you do indeed ignore the handlers for all itents and purposes as a target, however when it has been determined your unit can reach the Hydra model itself for a legitimate charge you should rank up the models so that a maximum number of models has been bought into base-to-base contact. This would mean putting the monster on a corner to corner position and filling the rest of the contact positions with handlers before any ranking extras.

I come to this conclusion from the following sections:

a) Under Monsters & Handlers: "once the monster is in contact with the enemy form the handlers up with the monster in the same way as you would for a unit of skirmishers".
b) Under Skirmishers, Charging Against Skirmishers, the skirmishers form up "as explained above" refering to the Charging section of Skirmishers above, where it says quite clearly "When the maximum number of models has been brought into base to base contact with the side charged" remaining skirmishers will be begin to form up in ranks.

So in reference to your original post Stonetroll, how does putting your Lord in the middle of the Hydra maximise contact?

Nurgling Chieftain
19-07-2009, 05:23
That was interesting. You actually posted a rules quote categorically denying your own argument. :confused:

VC Billy
22-07-2009, 17:56
1 - Bret Lord declares charge on flank of Hydra
2 - Hydra holds
3 - Bret Lord flies into the center of the Hydra base (as is his option because at this point the handlers are explicitly ignored)
4 - The handlers now "form up into base contact with the charging enemy, but since they can not they form up to the opposite flank of the Hydra facing the same direction.
5 - Now you would be required to maximize, but as there are no remaining models not in base contact that could become engaged by sliding the combat is maximized.

Did I get that right?

Atrahasis
22-07-2009, 18:16
The hydra forms up like a unit of skirmishers once contact is made - that means you rearrange to maximise the models.

The SkaerKrow
22-07-2009, 19:36
Right, but do you rearrange the charging model or the Hydra?

Atrahasis
22-07-2009, 19:38
The hydra's the one forming up like skirmishers, not the charger (unless the charger is also skirmishing of course).

VC Billy
22-07-2009, 21:01
The hydra forms up like a unit of skirmishers once contact is made - that means you rearrange to maximise the models.

Right, but when skirmishers form up, all models that can move into b2b do while those that can't form up behind. Only then do you maximize at it were. I'm about 95% sure that's right. I think... :eyebrows:

It seems that the complication exists here because normally skirmishing units can never be hit in the flank. With the hydra there is a clear cut flank and rear.

theunwantedbeing
22-07-2009, 21:21
Any unit (skirmishing or not) will align to the hydra.
Once that's done, the handlers then align to the enemy (if possible).
The handlers alignment must of course maximise the number of models in contact if there are more models available to be moved into the fight.

1. Align your unit to the hydra, maximising the number of models able to fight the hydra.
2. Align the handlers to the charging unit, maximising the number of models that can fight.

Same sort of thing when the hydra charges.
It aligns to the enemy, and then the handlers (assuming they can also reach the combat) are aligned to the enemy.
Always being forced to maximise the number of models in base contact.

1. Align the hydra to the unit, maximising the number of models it is in base contact with.
2. Align the handlers to maximise the number of models tthat can fight.

With the right unit sizes you can keep the handlers completely out of the fight if nessecary, or force them to be attackable when they really dont want to be.

Helps with dealing with hydra's when you realise how you can dictate where the handlers fight.

VC Billy
22-07-2009, 21:44
Any unit (skirmishing or not) will align to the hydra.
Once that's done, the handlers then align to the enemy (if possible).
The handlers alignment must of course maximise the number of models in contact if there are more models available to be moved into the fight.

1. Align your unit to the hydra, maximising the number of models able to fight the hydra.
2. Align the handlers to the charging unit, maximising the number of models that can fight.

Same sort of thing when the hydra charges.
It aligns to the enemy, and then the handlers (assuming they can also reach the combat) are aligned to the enemy.
Always being forced to maximise the number of models in base contact.

1. Align the hydra to the unit, maximising the number of models it is in base contact with.
2. Align the handlers to maximise the number of models tthat can fight.

With the right unit sizes you can keep the handlers completely out of the fight if nessecary, or force them to be attackable when they really dont want to be.

Helps with dealing with hydra's when you realise how you can dictate where the handlers fight.

I agree :)

Atrahasis
22-07-2009, 21:45
Any unit (skirmishing or not) will align to the hydra.No.

As soon as contact is made, the hydra + handlers form up like skirmishers. Contact comes before alignment - the hydra aligns to the charger, not the other way round.

VC Billy
22-07-2009, 21:53
No.

As soon as contact is made, the hydra + handlers form up like skirmishers. Contact comes before alignment - the hydra aligns to the charger, not the other way round.

You are absolutely right. I retract my previous agreement. I had to look again to check, but you're right it is the chargers that slide not the charged, and that occurs after a "battle line" is established. Which, in the case of skirmishers, is not until the models form up.

Good call Atrahasis. :D

I play Dark Elves too. This is good to know.

Nurgling Chieftain
22-07-2009, 21:58
It is the handlers who align as skirmishers (ref BRB pg 67). Note this is a necessary distinction, as if the hydra aligned as per skirmishers it would turn to face the charger, making the determination of a flank charge on it entirely pointless.

VC Billy
22-07-2009, 22:59
It is the handlers who align as skirmishers (ref BRB pg 67). Note this is a necessary distinction, as if the hydra aligned as per skirmishers it would turn to face the charger, making the determination of a flank charge on it entirely pointless.

Right they would still be flanked, but you would line them up in front of or behind the Hydra. The Bret lord would fly in to the center of the hydra then once the handlers were placed he would be forced to slide to maximize. I think in the end it would look like this:

HH
HH
HH BL
..h BL
..h

or this

..h
..h BL
HH BL
HH
HH

theunwantedbeing
22-07-2009, 23:44
Neither, the bretonnian lord ignores the handlers when charging the hydra.
So he aligns to the hydra however he damned well pleases.

Once he makes contact, the handlers are aligned to him (which if he went to the right place on the hydra, means they cant attack him at all).

There is no sliding.

Nurgling Chieftain
22-07-2009, 23:51
Personally, I think the notion that you can avoid maximizing due to the handlers being ignored during the charge move is, at best, an unintended side effect. Note that in all other cases you move to maximize models in contact AFTER alignment, not before. Only the fact that you're pretending the handlers don't exist at that exact moment in time lets you get around this, however, if I assume that the relevant moment in time for maximizing models is FINAL contact (and I think that's correct) then the handlers have, by that time, returned to "existence" and should be counted, even at the time when they are "not existing".

Atrahasis
23-07-2009, 07:52
As soon as contact is made, the handlers are no longer ignored. "Ranking up" and alignment (and the ensuing maximisation) happen after contact.

Kayosiv
23-07-2009, 10:37
Where are the rules for all of this stuff, specifically for the hydra (or any other large monster with handlers/beast master)? I'm talking which pages and in which books/FAQ's.

I simply assumed that the beastmasters Had really long whips and therefor got to attack stuff, and you only aligned things to fight the hydra.

The whole "The beast masters don't exist for charging, but then for combat, they DO exist" concept is really hard for me to come to grips with.

nosferatu1001
23-07-2009, 12:51
Monster and Handlers, BRB. Also look at the FAQ for Dark Elves which confirms that handlers are ignored when charging / being charged.

VC Billy
23-07-2009, 16:43
They are only ignored for the purposes of determining movement and range. After the hydra has been charged the unit acts like a skirmishing unit that has a flank and rear. Unfortunately, there are no rules written for how to treat that.

I would still contend that Lord must slide down. Why don't you think so unwanted?

Atrahasis
23-07-2009, 17:04
Chargers never slide to maximise with skirmishers; the skirmishers rearrange.

Sliding is bad.

nosferatu1001
23-07-2009, 17:08
Sliding does not exist in the rules. You must manouvere during the acharge in order to maximise the number of models in combat, before aligning to ensure the battle line is made. As the handlers are ignored this means you are free to put your self in the middle and ignore the handlers - they would in theory line one to the side of the hydra and one behind.

Nurgling Chieftain
23-07-2009, 17:16
As the handlers are ignored this means you are free to put your self in the middle and ignore the handlers - they would in theory line one to the side of the hydra and one behind.The handlers are no longer ignored at the moment in time at which models must be maximized (which is after alignment and ranking up). As maximization is entirely a "I must act on a prediction of what will happen after alignment" consideration, I hold that you still must maximize to the handlers.

Atrahasis
23-07-2009, 17:22
The handlers rank up with the hydra like a skirmishing unit - it doesn't matter where you hit the hydra, the unit will rearrange itself to maximise.

Necromancy Black
23-07-2009, 23:40
If I charge the hydra centre one, I've maximised models as the handlers don't exist. And then, they do exist, but sliding is not a rule so both sides stay where they are.

Milgram
24-07-2009, 08:00
the handlers rank up like a skirmishing unit - not the hydra itself. 'minimizing' therefore is not against the rules when it comes to a hydra.

Witchblade
24-07-2009, 21:33
the handlers rank up like a skirmishing unit - not the hydra itself. 'minimizing' therefore is not against the rules when it comes to a hydra.
Wait, are you saying the handlers do not have to maximise models in base contact?

I thought it was:
- charge hydra (ignore handlers) and align to it
- maximise handlers in contact (meaning they could end up both on the same side)

decker_cky
24-07-2009, 21:41
I'd say that this discussion is in a very grey area, and that the intent to maximize models should be used. You should charge the lord in such a way that it allows for the maximization of models. You can claim the nitpicking details, but in the overall motions of a charge, you're meant to maximize models in base to base, so both sides should do that wherever possible.

Milgram
25-07-2009, 00:17
Wait, are you saying the handlers do not have to maximise models in base contact?

other way round. enemy has not to maximise with the handlers. if able the handlers of course form up to maximise. the handlers should also be placed in the back of the hydra when there is a single model in the front middle of the hydra. (this can be contradicted as 'only' the handlers are formed up like skirmishers, so one handler could arguably still be placed in the front rank.)

decker_cky
25-07-2009, 01:08
It's clipping under another guise. The intent pretty obvious that you'd strive to actually maximize models in combat. To do otherwise would be quite unsportsmanlike IMO.

Milgram
25-07-2009, 06:00
when there's a cauldron and a chain gang commander behind the hydra, there is a lack of sportsmanship on the table anyways. :)