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Pooky
15-07-2009, 04:18
What kind of transport would a Space Marine Captain ride around in?

The story is that I've decided to put down the power units and try my hand at a themed army for once. One theme I have been wanting to do for a while is a company of Space Marines (even before the Apoc Compnay Box release). I'm starting off with fielding a 1/2 company (3 Troops, 1 Assault and 1 Devestator). I'm going to run a Captain and his command squad but don't know what to give him to ride around in. The Troops are in Rhinos, the Assault Squad don't need one and the Devestators don't have one. I wanted to give him a Rhino but that seems a little lower than a Captain should be given. Conversely a Land Raider seems a little too excessive. I don't want to give him a Drop Pod since my Ironclad is using it. That and I am a believer that the Captain should be in the thick of it with his men.

So, any ideas?

iluvatar18
15-07-2009, 04:20
Command Squad + Captain=6 models

That Screams Razorback

starlight
15-07-2009, 04:50
*Codex* Tradition (ie maybe not yours) says most likely Razorback but possibly Rhino...


For your background, you can write up whatever you want. :)

librisrouge
15-07-2009, 05:04
It would depend heavily on the chapter. Some have extra heavy armor and that means battle company captains would have access to Land Raiders. White Scars would probably have a personal bike he'd use if he had a decent choice.

For most, a Rhino or Razorback unless they're drop pod assaulting.

Madness_
15-07-2009, 06:58
On the back of an IG commissar.

Jokes aside, it largely depends on the chapter, the situation, and the personal preferences.

eltanko
15-07-2009, 07:51
Agree with above, depends what kind of army it is, what other backgound?
similar to White Scars= bike
similar to Black Templars = Land Raider
everything in between = Rhino/razorback.

Would it make a difference what armour he is in, If Termievarmour, then go for a land raider.

ElTanko

pookie
15-07-2009, 09:45
you dont want a Rhino or a LR - so its either a Bike or a Razor Back, not a very hard question to answer realy.

You want mobility - Bike - costly if you want the CS to also ride along, but a good choice, increase in toughness can help with small arms fire, yet you'll still die to heavy weps.

You want a little more protection at a reduced cost fro the HQ/commamnd Sqd - RB.

ToXiK
15-07-2009, 09:48
i would go with the razor back to be honest it really the only thing left to you

Pooky
15-07-2009, 11:45
It's an Imperial Fist successor chapter. Their fluff is similar to Imperial Fists, in that things should be done "by the book" and "never give up". I was leaning towards a LR, they being seige specialists and all...

Madness_
15-07-2009, 12:18
The thing with successor chapters is that, while having common roots, they are usually created with a slightly different task at hand, so they don't *have* to be siege specialists unless you want them to. Of course they can't be "raaah blood rage" as blood angels in a black rage status, but you can stray slightly farther away.

Bauknefer
15-07-2009, 12:53
Go with RB with lascannons if you want to follow the siege specialists route. but the HB may be a little better and it will make it cheaper. if the captain is in terminator armor then he cant be in a razorback but if he isn't then go for the RB and just add a bunch of stuff to make it more command-y

Condottiere
15-07-2009, 13:18
I have this wonderful model of a bike with a sidecar. He gets a chauffeur, and can park it anywhere.

TheDarkDaff
15-07-2009, 14:32
It's an Imperial Fist successor chapter. Their fluff is similar to Imperial Fists, in that things should be done "by the book" and "never give up". I was leaning towards a LR, they being seige specialists and all...

In that case go the Landraider (not a standard one though). He can be the armoured speartip of the rhino's when breaching fortifications. Maybe throw in a Vindicator and Whirlwind for more siege fun.

starlight
15-07-2009, 17:23
If I was doing a Fists Successor, I'd put Chronus in a Vindicator and have him *counts as* my HQ. :D

Then use your HQ to fill a hole in your list. :)

Madness_
15-07-2009, 17:33
Nice idea. Maybe using a Master of the Forge as "personal mantainer". Or something like that with a better name.

starlight
15-07-2009, 19:40
Good call. :)

And you still have a second HQ and your Elites for more themed units. :)

Conversion Beamer = Siege Weapon :D

Giganthrax
15-07-2009, 21:41
Jump pack captain accompanying the assault squad also goes with the entire leading-from-the-front-lines thingie. :)

Maidel
15-07-2009, 21:54
Infact - the answer depends on the situation.

Marines are not a 'this is mine ill use it not matter what'

They evaluate each situation:

Fast strike - hes in a drop pod/thunderhawk

Normal manoevers - rhino/ razorback

Armoured assault - land raider

Long patrol - bike

only joking...
15-07-2009, 22:01
Maybe a Razorback but a rarely used archaic pattern such as the lascannon/twin-linked plasma gun one.

Pooky
15-07-2009, 22:35
Jump pack captain accompanying the assault squad also goes with the entire leading-from-the-front-lines thingie. :)

I do/ did have a Chaplain with a Jump Pack leading my Assault Squad, but my friend get a little annoyed when I use it because he considers it :cheese:

That and I have never used a vanilla Captain before so I want to see how that'll work out. Leave alone, I'll need it eventually when I run my full company of Marines.

Madness_
15-07-2009, 23:15
That's not cheese, that's bread and butter if you play blood angels (for instance).

General Squeek Squeek
16-07-2009, 01:01
Personally I think you should go with a Land Raider depending on which Company he's from.

as a total guess tbh, I'd say a chapter has between 3-6 land raiders spread around (This feels about right to me). You figure 1-2 of those would stay with first company. The rest would probably get used by the battle companies/ put where they were requested.

So as long as your captain is the head of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th company theres a good chance he's being hauled around in a land raider.

If he's part of the other marine companies 5th-10th then a razorback or rhino would suit him just fine.

Like others have said though captains aren't chained to one vehicle and could switch depending on the situation. My point is that if he's a captain of a battle company he's probably got regular access to a land raider if he want/needs it.

Pooky
16-07-2009, 05:07
That's not cheese, that's bread and butter if you play blood angels (for instance).

I know, I know :rolleyes: But I like to keep my friends happy than just ignore them and take a unit they don't like. Besides, it's my friends I play against, and if I annoy them then they won't play. It works both ways, I keep them happy, they keep me happy :D

Maidel
16-07-2009, 19:55
Personally I think you should go with a Land Raider depending on which Company he's from.

as a total guess tbh, I'd say a chapter has between 3-6 land raiders spread around (This feels about right to me). You figure 1-2 of those would stay with first company. The rest would probably get used by the battle companies/ put where they were requested.

Ultramarines have 12 land raiders + 1 for calgar. I think 10 of those are dedicated to the first company (10 squads of 10) but they could be re-distributed if needed to the other companies.

so I really dont think that its suitable for a company captain to have a landraider as his personal transport - for a special mission definately, as standard, no.

The back of the 3rd edition marine codex breaks down the ultramarine chapter even further (and actually makes me a bit wrong!)
There are 12 landraiders in the armoury AND 7 dedicated landraiders for the first company.

However, for the second company ther are as dedicated vehicles - 11 rhinos, 6 land speeders, 18 bikes and 2 attack bikes.

Without reproducing the entire list - basically none of the companies have anything other than rhinos as their dedicated transports.

There are 14 razor backs and 12 landraiders in the armoury for missions, but for everyday use, a captain has a rhino.

Madness_
16-07-2009, 21:00
Ultramarines have 1 for calgar.[...]I really dont think that its suitable for a company captain to have a landraider as his personal transportI'm sorry, this is a foul, you can't contradict yourself in adjacent paragraphs. Now please go and sit in the corner.

Maidel
16-07-2009, 21:35
I'm sorry, this is a foul, you can't contradict yourself in adjacent paragraphs. Now please go and sit in the corner.

Last time I checked calgar was a chapter master...

Madness_
16-07-2009, 21:41
Same difference, if the Captain of the Ravenwing can have a vehicle for himself, so can any other Captain if he justifies it decently.

It could be a highly specialized company.

Maidel
16-07-2009, 21:45
Same difference,

Say what??? There is a massive difference!


if the Captain of the Ravenwing can have a vehicle for himself, so can any other Captain if he justifies it decently.

Totally different situation - non codex - non standard.


It could be a highly specialized company.

But thats not what the OP asked - he asked what a standard captain would ride around in.

General Squeek Squeek
16-07-2009, 23:26
touche Maidel, you win this time. :D

...man I was way off. First I underestimated the number of land raiders, and then how they were distributed. Oh well I guess thats what I get for only coming into this game 2 1/2 years ago.

Maidel
16-07-2009, 23:35
Don't be hard on yourself. That's the smurfs and they are probably one of the better equipped chapters. Not all chapters would have that many.

Pooky
17-07-2009, 06:26
Don't be hard on yourself. That's the smurfs and they are probably one of the better equipped chapters. Not all chapters would have that many.

Which other chapters would have ready access to heavy support? At first guess I would say the following: Imperial Fists, Iron Hands and Salamanders.

Madness_
17-07-2009, 07:49
And whichever not first founding chapter you want, to be honest.

Again there is NOTHING that stops you from making a special character a la Asdrubael Vect/Master of the Ravenwing. Also any vehicle is fair game. What matters is how you justify it.

Maidel is only partially right, his reasoning stands for Codex chapters, which is a large portion of the cake, not the whole cake.

pookie
17-07-2009, 09:42
Maidel is only partially right, his reasoning stands for Codex chapters, which is a large portion of the cake, not the whole cake.

but considering what the OP has said he is right:


It's an Imperial Fist successor chapter. Their fluff is similar to Imperial Fists, in that things should be done "by the book" and "never give up". I was leaning towards a LR, they being seige specialists and all...

So he has a Codex Chapter.

Madness_
17-07-2009, 09:46
Sigh, I still think that a captain running around in a personal land raider in ONE of the MANY hundreds of chapters out there is not that big of a deal, statistically speaking, it's bound to happen.

pookie
17-07-2009, 10:13
Sigh, I still think that a captain running around in a personal land raider in ONE of the MANY hundreds of chapters out there is not that big of a deal, statistically speaking, it's bound to happen.

Sigh, yeah your right but we are working on info that the Op has said, some of which admitedly contradicts itself.

Leftenant Gashrog
17-07-2009, 15:43
Don't be hard on yourself. That's the smurfs and they are probably one of the better equipped chapters. Not all chapters would have that many.

There are certainly chapters with less, possibly even none, but according to Insignium Astartes most chapters usually have 20-30 Land Raiders - putting the Ultramarines somewhat below average.

Madness_
17-07-2009, 16:58
They sold them to have the soulder rims blinged. The cost of gold has skyrocketed recently.

starlight
17-07-2009, 17:02
Which is why I go for Chronus in a Vindicator as your *HQ*. :D Completely Codex equipment, fits with the siege theme, and has some personality. :D

Maidel
17-07-2009, 20:04
Sigh, I still think that a captain running around in a personal land raider in ONE of the MANY hundreds of chapters out there is not that big of a deal, statistically speaking, it's bound to happen.

Yea - but thats not the point.

The guy asked what the usual transport for a captain would be in a fairly standard codex chapter.

The answer is - a rhino. Its the only transport that is dedicated to the companies with 11 per company - everything else is held centrally.

If he wants he can invent a chapter where every single squad has access to a land raider - there might well be one, home planet on a forge world or something like that.

But if you ask what the background says - its a rhino.

Urath
17-07-2009, 21:08
So you're fielding a codex chapter, any indication if it's an official First/Second Founding ior eve a homebrewed chapter.

It's up to you. Sometimes, certain pieces of wargear are passed down in the company. From captain to captain, either directly as the original captain sets out to do something suicidal or as a sort of symbol of their position in "X Company".

Perhaps a renowned captain which much honour had his own personal Razorback and he was killed, but his transport survived and passed into the service of his successor.

Or it could be a relic of an ancient hero, equally passed down and preversed by company history; assuming your Chapter is old enough :p

So, you could theoretically give him a Razorback adorned with personal heraldry OR a Land Raider.

For example, my friend fields the Blood Angels 3rd Company and his captain, fought during the War for Armaggedon alongside Tycho, who was killed, Tycho's armour was aken, repaired and gifted to "Aurelius" and has become both a relic, being artificer armour and in honour of a great hero, and a symbol of 3rd company's office.

gamer2456
18-07-2009, 05:21
In the first Vraks book, a Dark Angels captain has his own personal land raider.

Earthbeard
18-07-2009, 10:02
A mental image popped up of a Kubelwagon :P

But really I imagine it's more down to the captains taste and command style.

Leftenant Gashrog
18-07-2009, 21:24
In the first Vraks book, a Dark Angels captain has his own personal land raider.

Are you sure your not thinking of the Chapter Masters Land Raider Prometheus?

Pooky
20-07-2009, 02:30
I think I will make it a Land Raider Redeemer. Thanks for the assist everyone. You gave me much to think about.

Maidel
20-07-2009, 09:26
I think I will make it a Land Raider Redeemer. Thanks for the assist everyone. You gave me much to think about.

Love it. About the least fluffy option and the only one no one suggested. ;)

starlight
20-07-2009, 14:10
I disagree on *least in keeping with the background*, since we have little idea what his background will be, and the Redeemer *is* a linebreaker tank... :p

StefDa
20-07-2009, 21:16
Having not read the entire thread, I read an interesting passage in a Horus Heresy book, possibly Fulgrim.

An Emperor's Children Company Captain is invited by a good friend (captain of a squad in said company) to ride with them in their drop pod during the imminent planetary assault, which the company captain accepts.

Pooky
21-07-2009, 01:08
Love it. About the least fluffy option and the only one no one suggested. ;)

Yep, that's me, Mr Totally-not-what-anyone-was-talking-about :D

I've always loved the idea of a bunch of Space Marines cruising forward while the HQ is screaming over the vox "BUM RUSH THE STAGE!" ala Futurama with the broken robots.

Maidel
21-07-2009, 18:03
Yep, that's me, Mr Totally-not-what-anyone-was-talking-about :D

I've always loved the idea of a bunch of Space Marines cruising forward while the HQ is screaming over the vox "BUM RUSH THE STAGE!" ala Futurama with the broken robots.

Good for you. It's wrong of course. But then I'm very proud ofmy yellow kharandras and that's even more wrong.

Pooky
21-07-2009, 21:59
Good for you. It's wrong of course. But then I'm very proud ofmy yellow kharandras and that's even more wrong.

How do you consider it "wrong" though? Wasn't it discussed that the Captain could ride around in whatever he wanted?

Maidel
21-07-2009, 22:14
How do you consider it "wrong" though? Wasn't it discussed that the Captain could ride around in whatever he wanted?

Well yes and no.

There is a chapter armoury from which he could request transport. I have no idea how this would be decided.

The only things that are DEDICATED to each battle company are rhinos and bikes.

so, no matter what else was going on with the chapter at the time - he always has access to rhinos and bikes because they are in his personal company.

Everything else would be on a 'needs' basis - so, who needs the landraider more? Him or the first company or the second company or, do they need a tank company for the battle ahead.


So his dedicated transport is a rhino - for specific battles, he could have any vehicle depending on the situation.

starlight
21-07-2009, 22:19
You refer, of course, to a *codex* Battle Company... ;)

Maidel
21-07-2009, 22:26
You refer, of course, to a *codex* Battle Company... ;)

Well obviously...


From the first post:

The story is that I've decided to put down the power units and try my hand at a themed army for once. One theme I have been wanting to do for a while is a company of Space Marines (even before the Apoc Compnay Box release). I'm starting off with fielding a 1/2 company (3 Troops, 1 Assault and 1 Devestator).


So he is describing a half codex company - therefore, thats where I based my thoughts.


If its a non codex company - personal thunderhawks is the way id go :D

Pooky
23-07-2009, 00:40
If its a non codex company - personal thunderhawks is the way id go :D

Personal Thunderhawk?! Now that is one sweet ride! :eek:

Sai-Lauren
23-07-2009, 14:41
Yea - but thats not the point.

The guy asked what the usual transport for a captain would be in a fairly standard codex chapter.

The answer is - a rhino. Its the only transport that is dedicated to the companies with 11 per company - everything else is held centrally.

If he wants he can invent a chapter where every single squad has access to a land raider - there might well be one, home planet on a forge world or something like that.

But if you ask what the background says - its a rhino.

What about the Rhino Damocles and Land Raider Prometheus? ;)

Theoretically, it could be anything - White Scars successors could have the Captain mounted on a land speeder with extra comms gear, whilst some that specialise in planetary assaults could have C3 drop pods, maybe even a Command Thunderhawk (although the Chapter Master's probably baggsied that ;) ).

Leftenant Gashrog
23-07-2009, 17:08
Theoretically, it could be anything - White Scars successors could have the Captain mounted on a land speeder with extra comms gear

Actually, considering that companies 2-5, 7 & 8 have their own integral Land Speeders I can see even a codex captain of those companies riding into battle on a Land Speeder. (in fact in the current version of EPIC you can put Commanders, Captain, Chaplains and Librarians in Land Speeders).

Scion of Ferrus
23-07-2009, 18:55
Iron Hands no question!

Venerable Dreadnought!:chrome::skull::D

Madness_
23-07-2009, 19:01
Well, the Master of the Ravenwing has his own custom Land speeder.

Maidel
23-07-2009, 19:14
What about the Rhino Damocles and Land Raider Prometheus? ;)

Theoretically, it could be anything - White Scars successors could have the Captain mounted on a land speeder with extra comms gear, whilst some that specialise in planetary assaults could have C3 drop pods, maybe even a Command Thunderhawk (although the Chapter Master's probably baggsied that ;) ).

Sigh - two flaws to that.

1) I said - standard codex company - so there go the white scars..

2) The land raider prometheus is a chapter armoury vehicle so is deployed from there - its not a personal transport for companies. The rhino damocles is a rhino variant - so wouldnt be specifically picked out from other rhinos - it could be an option.

FlashGordon
23-07-2009, 21:40
Isnt there a command rhino from forge world?

Madness_
23-07-2009, 21:53
Maidel, I think you are confusing "codex chapter" with "very boring army list".

Ok, sure, the Ultramarines have all the vehicles (except transports and dreadnoughts) in the armory, which is probably right (altough contradicted in Insignium Astartes where it says "Predator Battle Tank 'Gladius'. This vehicle was commissioned following the loss of the Ultramarines' entire 1st Company at the Battle of Macragge. Its custodians are stalwart veterans promoted from the elite of the Chapter's vehicle crews, and 'Gladius' has earned the honour of being permanently attached to the rebuilt 1st Company.")

But come on, NO chapter respects the codex astartes at its full, probably not even the ultramarines (they have weird units like tyranid war veterans, and honour guard.)

FlashGordon
23-07-2009, 22:00
Thats true, it would be folly of the ultramarines to stay focused on the codex, which was meant to battle mainly orks, other humans, other CSM and Eldar. Not Necron Tau or Tyranids.

Maidel
23-07-2009, 22:06
Maidel, I think you are confusing "codex chapter" with "very boring army list".

Erm - we arent talking about an army list here - we are talking about the back ground - in your own army list you can do what ever the hell you want, I dont give a monkeys (hence my post saying in a non-codex chapter id give him a personal thunderhawk)


Ok, sure, the Ultramarines have all the vehicles (except transports and dreadnoughts) in the armory, which is probably right (altough contradicted in Insignium Astartes where it says "Predator Battle Tank 'Gladius'. This vehicle was commissioned following the loss of the Ultramarines' entire 1st Company at the Battle of Macragge. Its custodians are stalwart veterans promoted from the elite of the Chapter's vehicle crews, and 'Gladius' has earned the honour of being permanently attached to the rebuilt 1st Company.")

Its a one off - its specifically noted as such because otherwise, they wouldnt bother mentioning its perminantly attached to the first company - you only mention exceptions, you dont mention norms.


But come on, NO chapter respects the codex astartes at its full, probably not even the ultramarines (they have weird units like tyranid war veterans, and honour guard.)

1) Read the latest codex - tyranid war veterans have been phased out by the ultramrines because they were going against the codex.

2) Honour guard are now recoginsed as part of the codex. Yea, its a retcon - but its the same as vanguard and sternguard are retcons.

3) Quote page 24 fifth edition marine codex:

Such chapters follow the codex astarties with as much dedication and passion as the ultramarines, viewing its dictates as tactical doctorine and spiritual guidance in equal measures


So - unlike your claims - I have found evidence from the codex which backs up my arguement - the majority of chapters adere very strictly to the codex astartes - its just that the ones that dont are more interresting.

FlashGordon
23-07-2009, 22:13
Erm - we arent talking about an army list here - we are talking about the back ground - in your own army list you can do what ever the hell you want, I dont give a monkeys (hence my post saying in a non-codex chapter id give him a personal thunderhawk)



Its a one off - its specifically noted as such because otherwise, they wouldnt bother mentioning its perminantly attached to the first company - you only mention exceptions, you dont mention norms.



1) Read the latest codex - tyranid war veterans have been phased out by the ultramrines because they were going against the codex.

2) Honour guard are now recoginsed as part of the codex. Yea, its a retcon - but its the same as vanguard and sternguard are retcons.

3) Quote page 24 fifth edition marine codex:

Such chapters follow the codex astarties with as much dedication and passion as the ultramarines, viewing its dictates as tactical doctorine and spiritual guidance in equal measures


So - unlike your claims - I have found evidence from the codex which backs up my arguement - the majority of chapters adere very strictly to the codex astartes - its just that the ones that dont are more interresting.

i think you should reread the Background of Cassius. "Lord macragge tolerates his mentors divergence...cassius followers may be the key to final victory".

Maidel
23-07-2009, 22:22
i think you should reread the Background of Cassius. "Lord macragge tolerates his mentors divergence...cassius followers may be the key to final victory".

Ive read it plenty of times.

If you could point me towards the unit entry for tyrannic veterans id be very grateful. :D

FlashGordon
23-07-2009, 22:23
They are honour guards... Edit: stern guard sorry. :P
And you asked for backround not armylist examples...

Madness_
23-07-2009, 22:26
Deviating by ONE unit per chapter (actually I don't even see it as a deviation) is still adhering pretty strictly to the Codex Astartes. Even moreso if it is to allow a captain to be more effective in combat.

Maidel
23-07-2009, 22:32
They are honour guards... Edit: stern guard sorry. :P
And you asked for backround not armylist examples...

Please go and look up the 'fluff' section for sternguard - they are specifically said to be a part of the 1st company and there is not a single mention of the words 'tyranic veterans' (there is one mention of tyranid - but in a completely different context)

FlashGordon
23-07-2009, 22:34
Yep, if even the Ultramarines takes such a drastic step to create a new body of corps (which means they practically have 1 veteran company that is divided in three parts rather than the normal two, Terminators, regular veterans and Tyrannic war veterans) to battle a new threat i wonder what other chapters do.

FlashGordon
23-07-2009, 22:36
Please go and look up the 'fluff' section for sternguard - they are specifically said to be a part of the 1st company and there is not a single mention of the words 'tyranic veterans' (there is one mention of tyranid - but in a completely different context)

They have the same rules as tyranid war veteran in previous codex. So they are not excluded but included in the new veteran group.

Maidel
23-07-2009, 22:39
They have the same rules as tyranid war veteran in previous codex. So they are not excluded but included in the new veteran group.

Erm - we are talking about fluff - the fluff of the sternguard SPECIFIALLY states they are part of the first company. The old tyranic war veterans were not part of the first company - they were independant of that.

Yes, there are a few members of the tryanic wars veterans still round calgar turns a bind eye. They are so few in number to not get a codex entry and they are definately not sternguard.

FlashGordon
23-07-2009, 22:45
Erm - we are talking about fluff - the fluff of the sternguard SPECIFIALLY states they are part of the first company. The old tyranic war veterans were not part of the first company - they were independant of that.

Yes, there are a few members of the tryanic wars veterans still round calgar turns a bind eye. They are so few in number to not get a codex entry and they are definately not sternguard.

Please stop grabbing for air:rolleyes:
Quoted:
"Over time, fully half of the 1st company was made up of cassius proteges" page 50 SM codex 4th ed.

"Though cassius recruits where few in number, each clash with the tyranid hive fleets provided new followers to his cause"

"As the movement has grown, Cassius... his followers an ever more influential faction within the Ultramarines"

page 87 SM codex 5th ed.

starlight
23-07-2009, 22:49
Since I can't be bothered to wade through Codex: Ultraworshippers, can I presume they've retconned out Calgar's revelation that the Codex: Astartes is a guide not a set of handcuffs...? Don't recall where it was written, but it was about the beginning of 4th Ed and specifically addressed the challenges of the Tyrannic campaigns...

FlashGordon
23-07-2009, 22:54
You remember well.

Maidel
23-07-2009, 22:55
[QUOTE]"Over time, fully half of the 1st company was made up of cassius proteges" page 50 SM codex 4th ed

"Though cassius recruits where few in number, each clash with the tyranid hive fleets provided new followers to his cause" .

5th edition codex P33
The ultramarine 1st company had been wiped out to the last man

Ergo - every single one of cassius' recruits from the first company is DEAD - thus, when rebuilt they rebuilt with sternguard and vangauard - hence the lack of the tyranic wars veterans entry in this codex.


"As the movement has grown, Cassius... his followers an ever more influential faction within the Ultramarines"

That still doesnt mean there are many tyranic wars veterans left - just that the ones that are left have lots of support.

Its a mute point anyway - the codex specifically says its a 'minor deviation'

FlashGordon
23-07-2009, 23:09
[QUOTE=FlashGordon;3794837]



5th edition codex P33
The ultramarine 1st company had been wiped out to the last man

Ergo - every single one of cassius' recruits from the first company is DEAD - thus, when rebuilt they rebuilt with sternguard and vangauard - hence the lack of the tyranic wars veterans entry in this codex.

That still doesnt mean there are many tyranic wars veterans left - just that the ones that are left have lots of support.

Its a mute point anyway - the codex specifically says its a 'minor deviation'

Are you trolling?
No, there where no tyranic war veterans during the 1st tyrannic war(strange huh?)
Quote:
"...they immediatly began to rebuild the 1stcompany. With the succesive assaults of the tyranid hive fleets, the UM saw regular battle and experiences that made veterans of their warriors inevitably came from fighting Tyranids. Under the personal direction of chaplain Cassius... Known as tyrannic war veterans, these squads were a departure for the UM... over time, fully half the 1st company was made up of cassius proteges."

As i have quoted before, the "new fluff"(or lack of specific army entry) does not contradict this.
Ergo: Half the 1st company is "currently"(999?) composed of tyranic war veterans.

And the point is not if it is a minor deviation, it is a deviation.

EDIT: you page reference is fail. pg 55 is for a command squad.

Maidel
23-07-2009, 23:19
Are you trolling?

Absolutely never done so in my entire life - I consider the mere comment offensive.


And the point is not if it is a minor deviation, it is a deviation.

A minor deviation that according to the fluff in the rest of the book is so small its not even worth mentioning.


EDIT: you page reference is fail. pg 55 is for a command squad.

Epic fail - re-read my post and see I said P33 - leave your glasses behind today?

FlashGordon
23-07-2009, 23:26
I stand by my trolling comment since you cant get it in you skull, despite the quotation evidence i have presented, that half the company is Tyranic war veterans and that you apparantly think that Tyranic war veterans existed before the first tyrannic war.

And we all know the quality of the current codex with comments such as: "These chapters can never be Ultramarines...".

It is still a deviation, an addition that the UM have decided to add because of ther "deeply-felt Hatred for the tyranids" page 50 Codex SM 4th. EDIT: and it says "perhaps a minor divergence", which does not specify anything to the extent you belive.

Oops on the page thing lol its late for me over here. ;)

Maidel
23-07-2009, 23:30
I stand by my trolling comment since you cant get it in you skull, despite the quotation evidence i have presented, that half the company is Tyranic war veterans and that you apparantly think that Tyranic war veterans existed before the first tyrannic war.

I chose not to continue that line of arguement as the current codex does not make it clear and I dont have the 4th edition codex to hand - so I cant argue with the facts. Therefore, rather than flogging a death horse (which would be trolling) I dropped it. Its not a case of 'not getting it through my skull - infact, quite the opposite. It also amazes me how people cant have these discussions in a civil manner, but require to insult the other person to make their point.


And we all know the quality of the current codex with comments such as: "These chapters can never be Ultramarines...".

But thats just disparaging the current codex to prove your point - if its in there, its 'fact' irrelavent of how you feel about it.


It is still a deviation, an addition that the UM have decided to add because of ther "deeply-felt Hatred for the tyranids" page 50 Codex SM 4th.

Yea - and I dont disagree with it - but its a deviation that is, and I repeat, so minor that it doesnt even make this codex in anything other than 2 lines of fluff in cassius' bio. and one of those lines even takes time out from talking about them to say how minor it is.

FlashGordon
23-07-2009, 23:52
I chose not to continue that line of arguement as the current codex does not make it clear and I dont have the 4th edition codex to hand - so I cant argue with the facts. Therefore, rather than flogging a death horse (which would be trolling) I dropped it. Its not a case of 'not getting it through my skull - infact, quite the opposite. It also amazes me how people cant have these discussions in a civil manner, but require to insult the other person to make their point.

But thats just disparaging the current codex to prove your point - if its in there, its 'fact' irrelavent of how you feel about it.

Yea - and I dont disagree with it - but its a deviation that is, and I repeat, so minor that it doesnt even make this codex in anything other than 2 lines of fluff in cassius' bio. and one of those lines even takes time out from talking about them to say how minor it is.

You ignored my quotes and continue to throw around arguments like "there is no unit entry" several times i lost my patience, im sorry.

I just had to mention "They can never be ultramines" to show the quality(not thruth) of the current codex and it has nothing to do with the facts laid out.


It is not a minor divergence as i edited ->" EDIT: and it says "perhaps a minor divergence", which does not specify anything to the extent you belive.

further short quotes: 5th: "(cassius)petitioned Lord macragge... to forge a new body of ultramarines", "initially few in numbers"(of course), "ever more influencial" "each fresh clash...new followers", "perhaps a minor deviation", "may be the kay to final victory",
4th: "immediatly began to rebuild the 1st company", "veterans inevitably came from fighting tyranids "these new squads a departure", "argued it was contrary to the teachings", "necessity of having a full strenght veteran company", "deeply-felt hatred" "over time, fully half the first company was made up of cassius proteges".

I don't se any contradictions.

Maidel
23-07-2009, 23:59
You ignored my quotes and continue to throw around arguments like "there is no unit entry" several times i lost my patience, im sorry. :angel:

Tis only the internet...


It is not a minor divergence as i edited ->" EDIT: and it says "perhaps a minor divergence", which does not specify anything to the extent you belive.

Pot-a-toes, Pota-toes - same thing. Its not just that line - its the fact that GW have all but erased them from the codex. Fine, I see your posts below - but even you have to admit they have gone from being a calgar approved unit with their own stats and unit entry - to 3 lines in the current codex, no specific rules and the unit that replaced them doesnt even mention them in its fluff and only there on calgars sufferance.

Its a retcon, sure - they had to do it to ensure that all the rest of the fluff (ultramarines being the paragon of the codex etc) actually made sense.


I don't se any contradictions.

there are no contradictions - they existed, they still exist - but they arent anywhere as numerous as the previous codex pointed out, they only exist because calgar lets them - and the current codex has all but blanked them out - its not a contradiction - its a full government cover up.


BUT - back on topic - they do adhere to the codex very strictly - and so do all the other chapter that followed them, and thus - my point about what a STANDARD CODEX captains transport is (a rhino) still stands.

Pooky
24-07-2009, 05:30
You kids need to learn to play nice :p

Sai-Lauren
24-07-2009, 10:15
You kids need to learn to play nice

And before the mods show up...


Sigh - two flaws to that.

1) I said - standard codex company - so there go the white scars..

Ah, sorry, overlooked that bit. But as Leftenant Gashrog said, even Codex companies have Land Speeders at company command level.

2) The land raider prometheus is a chapter armoury vehicle so is deployed from there - its not a personal transport for companies. The rhino damocles is a rhino variant - so wouldnt be specifically picked out from other rhinos - it could be an option.[/QUOTE]
To me, the Damocles doesn't make much sense being held only at Chapter level, it is effectively a company command level support vehicle.

If the Prometheus is held at chapter level, it would probably be assigned to a particular officer and effectively becomes part of his companies transport pool. Most likely they would be assigned as company command vehicles for the 2nd-4th companies.

The Prometheus is HQ only, it isn't a transport vehicle like the normal LR is for Deathwing, or Heavy Support like all the LRs in the normal codex (which implies to me that they come from the chapters armoured "company" (the armoured vehicles and fleet assets are organised in their own command structure, with their own non-combat support assets - making them companies in all but name, but then assigned to work with other companies as required)).

Besides which, IMO, Marine Chapters, especially the long-established, are materiel rich and manpower poor, so I could easily see the company transport pools (especially when on long range patrols) consisting of Land Raiders, Rhinos, Razorbacks, Drop Pods, Bikes and Land Speeders and so on - including spare vehicles, plus non-combat capable support transport variants - sufficient to transport three or four companies worth of troops, with the commander deciding which to use depending on the circumstances he's facing.

FlashGordon
24-07-2009, 10:20
Tis only the internet...



Pot-a-toes, Pota-toes - same thing. Its not just that line - its the fact that GW have all but erased them from the codex. Fine, I see your posts below - but even you have to admit they have gone from being a calgar approved unit with their own stats and unit entry - to 3 lines in the current codex, no specific rules and the unit that replaced them doesnt even mention them in its fluff and only there on calgars sufferance.

Its a retcon, sure - they had to do it to ensure that all the rest of the fluff (ultramarines being the paragon of the codex etc) actually made sense.



there are no contradictions - they existed, they still exist - but they arent anywhere as numerous as the previous codex pointed out, they only exist because calgar lets them - and the current codex has all but blanked them out - its not a contradiction - its a full government cover up.


BUT - back on topic - they do adhere to the codex very strictly - and so do all the other chapter that followed them, and thus - my point about what a STANDARD CODEX captains transport is (a rhino) still stands.

Exclusion of something does not mean it is a retcon. And im tired of this discussion, apparantly you have made your mind up.
"An open mind is like a fortress unguarded and unbarred"

genestealer_baldric
24-07-2009, 10:38
Naughty ultramarines breaking from codex and producing tyranid war vets shame on you, papa smuf will be angry when he finishes his lie in.

Back to the OP question- i think depending on which company it would be a plain rhino but 1st company would be in a landraider ares (i think is the control one)

Sai-Lauren
24-07-2009, 13:09
Back to the OP question- i think depending on which company it would be a plain rhino but 1st company would be in a landraider ares (i think is the control one)

Promethus is the C3 one (quad heavy bolter sponsons), Ares is a Dark Angel urban fighting/ seige breaker variant, with a Thunderer cannon instead of the front doorway, Assault Cannon and sponson Heavy Flamers.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180096_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_Land_Raider_Ares.pdf

Maidel
24-07-2009, 13:51
Don't get me wrong, at not point have I said that company captains can't have a landraider, what I've said is the their standard assigned transport is a rhino.

The only other alternative in a standard company is a bike.

Landspeeders are not a transport choice and to my knowledge the only cptain that rides around in one is the ravenwing.

Again at no point do I say they CANT do any of these things, at any point a captain could be assigned a strike cruiser. Or a thunderhawk. Or a land raider redeemer. But it's not a standard part of his armament.

It's the same with people pointing out that the odd company here or there gets assigned a specific vehicle for bravery. I'm not saying this doesn't happen, what I'm saying is it's not standard.

We can all think up reasons why a captain might have a personal landraider, it's not hard to think of a few reasons, I have been merely pointing out what is STANDARD.

Madness_
24-07-2009, 14:29
My answer to the "What kind of transport would a Space Marine Captain ride around in?" is "anything he damn pleases" he's a captain and even in a codex chapter, he has a strong influence and you can fit him anywhere you want.