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Mabbz101
15-07-2009, 14:18
Can it go toe to toe with most Monsters in the game? im asking because id like to pit it up against a DE dreadlord on manticore.

Thoughts would be great

Mabbz

Witchblade
15-07-2009, 15:15
A properly tooled dreadlord on manticore would overrun a shaggoth on the charge.

The shaggoth's only chance is winning by combat res and fear + outnumber by beating the dreadlord's pet.

danny-d-b
15-07-2009, 15:22
a dread lord would rip through the dragon oger on the charge, I'd go aganst it with either magic or a dragon/ manticore with lord

DarkTerror
15-07-2009, 16:28
The Shaggoth cannot go against most monsters in the game, especially not monsters near his point value.

The SkaerKrow
15-07-2009, 17:14
The Shaggoth is only Toughness 5, without any form of Ward or Regeneration, meaning that it isn't particularly difficult to kill. On the other hand, it does bring Strength 6 to the table and so will wound most enemy monsters on 4s (or 2s if you see fit to give it a great weapon). On the charge, the Shaggoth should devastate a Manticore. Just remember to put all of your attacks on the Manticore, which should kill it, giving you an insurmountable margin of victory against your opponent (four wounds on the Manticore + Outnumber vs. a maximum of four wounds from the Dreadlord, giving you a victory in combat against an opponent needing to test on snake-eyes thanks to Fear).

theunwantedbeing
15-07-2009, 17:40
With a great weapon, 4 hits to the manticore prettymuch guarantees you at least a draw. So long as you havent just taken 5 wounds.
You've less chance of winning with the extra hand weapon.

The issue is that the DE army is quite capable of taking a couple of wounds off your shaggoth before the lord on manticore reaches you. In which case, your shaggoth is pretty dead, as its not too unlikely that he'll deal you 3-5 wounds.

Your better off using the shaggoth to deal with knights and chariots, st8 makes a mockery of those things.
DE assasins in units are quite capable of crippling him, if not killing him completely.
So even flanking ranked unit's can be an issue.

Whenever I've faced a shaggoth with my Dark elves, I've gunned him down before he got to combat.(admittedly firing almost my entire armies worth of shooting at him for 2-3 turns)

decker_cky
15-07-2009, 18:15
Against a manticore....I think the shaggoth stands a good chance of winning.

WoC or BoC Shaggoth with GW vs manticore:
2.7778 wounds

WoC Shaggoth w/ AHW vs manticore:
2.6667 wounds

Add +1 to any result, since the shaggoth outnumbers the manticore + rider (I believe they're only US5 compared to US6 for the shaggoth).

Actually...against this particular foe, the BoC shaggoth is better than the warriors one since manticores don't have armour and are only T5, so the extra armour save is more useful than the strength.

As to whether the shaggoth will win on average, probably not. The dreadlord, if wounding on 2's for a turn, will cause 3 wounds turn 1. Not sure on the exact manticore stats, but they should probably get the 1 wound to at least draw.

If the shaggoth survives to strike in round 2, they should kill the manticore and autobreak the dreadlord though.

Oberon
15-07-2009, 18:22
The shaggoth would strike last and die first though, it the combat goes to the second round. The DE shooting will make sure it won't. Shaggoth could beat the manticore alone easily, but the rider is a different matter. Luckily the OP did not ask about riders, just about other monsters.

Kholek, on the other hand... He beats them all and laughs about it while doing so.

decker_cky
15-07-2009, 18:41
Luckily the OP did not ask about riders, just about other monsters.


id like to pit it up against a DE dreadlord on manticore

I think he asked about dealing with a dreadlord on manticore. ;)

As to the shaggoth being shot up....it depends how it's used. A shaggoth is almost like a flyer in how it can jump from cover to cover since it moves quite fast, so protecting it should be pretty easy. If the dreadlord has the lance that gives +3 strength rather than hydra blade + potion of strength (which on it's own wins the matchup round 1), there's the chance that the shaggoth could get the charge and avoid the strength bonus, meaning the dreadlord and manticore would get slaughtered.

Ohhh...also, most of the shaggoth champions from beast of chaos would do better too. +1 wound, L2 wizard that could get rerolls to everything or a 5+ ward, ASF or frenzy would help out the shaggoth quite a bit.

But if the dreadlord has hydra blade + potion of strength does an average of 4.44 wounds round 1, which combined with the manticore should probably drop the shaggoth.

Oberon
15-07-2009, 19:12
Here I am reading only the first sentences of the posts, sorry. :)
There just isn't a way a monster that moves 16" if not march blocked (not difficult with harpies and all) to charge a flying monster, without something else tying the beast down and holding for two turns of combat (and even that requires someone to charge the flying beast). As WoC (or BoC) have very limited shooting, manticores have very free reign over the field. So no, shaggoths are not at all like flyers (or at least they are much worse than flyers), and not always that fast.
Same can be said about Kholek and shaggoth champions of course, but Kholek can take a charge and still win, so it isn't so bad.

decker_cky
15-07-2009, 19:36
You're right....an army composed largely of skirmishers can't protect it's beasties from being march blocked. :rolleyes:

You actually only addressed the third sentence btw. And having experience using shaggoths, I can say that they're fast enough to avoid shooting.

I didn't say they were likely to get the charge (though I did have a sentence saying "if they got the charge".

Oh, and kholek is the only MV8 shaggoth. The others are all MV7 (which on a monster is still surprisingly fast and manoeuvrable).

So I guess I can only reply...read the posts?

Oberon
15-07-2009, 19:39
No, I won't read the posts.
As you might guess from my ramblings about Kholek (or not, but hey), I play WoC, our skirmishers are quite limited to 0.
Not every unit that aims to march block others, flees when a herd charges it->they will block the beast marching no matter what you do, if only for one turn.

WhiteKnight
16-07-2009, 06:35
Depends if the shaggoth is a general or not. If its a general, a Dragon Ogre Slaanesh Shaggoth will destroy the manticore. 5 attacks at S7 Always strike first will probably be the end of the manticore. Problem is that at the cost of a shaggoth with light armor and a great weapon, my high elf army can take a Moon Dragon thats basically all 6's for stats.

Harwammer
16-07-2009, 08:27
Since the darkelves are using a lord I think its fair to use a shaggoth lord.

Slaanesh (ASF), Tzeentch (level 2), Nurgle (+1W), Khorne (frenzy) are probably the order of effectiveness.

If you are talking about WoC shaggoths, excluding kholek, good luck.

Likewise, if you are talking about matching these units up in a game where other units will be a factor... good luck!

txamil
16-07-2009, 14:45
Tzeentch with Bears anger?

decker_cky
16-07-2009, 14:51
No bear's anger in the lore of tzeentch. But that could possibly be either a 5+ ward save or the ability to reroll to hit, to wound and saves.

Tokamak
16-07-2009, 14:54
No bear's anger in the lore of tzeentch. But that could possibly be either a 5+ ward save or the ability to reroll to hit, to wound and saves.

Actually, a character with the mark of tzeentch can get a magical item, goretooth, that has the bear's anger bound spell especially nasty for Beastlords. But Shaggoth Champions can't use items.

Witchblade
16-07-2009, 14:56
Plus he's not US 1 so bear's anger is impossible.

txamil
18-07-2009, 01:25
Goretooth is arcane item and Tzeentch makes him a spellcaster Tokamak?

But yeah Witchblade, I totally forgot about the US1 thing. Too bad, that would be sweet.

Griffery
18-07-2009, 07:23
I think the shaggoth would be able to handle the manticore easily enough, being that it has no saves, but I am not sure about the dreadlord and manticore together. I would suggest taking a GW and just attacking the Manticore and you would be hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s. That should give you enough combat res to kill your opponent. The only reason why I think Manticores are slightly good is because they have KB which can be great with a lord for character hunting. Being as a Shaggoth is immune to KB, a manticore is somewhat more useless, even though 4 S5 atks isnt too bad either. I have found that dreadlords aren't that great, even though they are the CC lords fore DE. You can give them fairly good saves, but with being only T3, they are not that hard to kill. The only thing that could stop you is if your Shaggoth was hurt earlier, or if you don't do that much with your attacks on the charge.

Harwammer
18-07-2009, 14:05
Goretooth is arcane item and Tzeentch makes him a spellcaster Tokamak?

But yeah Witchblade, I totally forgot about the US1 thing. Too bad, that would be sweet.

Regardless of being a spell caster shaggoth champions can't purchase any magic items. Monstrous characters with items would be overpowered *cough blood thirsters cough* :D

Dag
18-07-2009, 17:45
shaggoths can, and will tune up most monsters. characters are a whole new ball game.

DE is a bad list to put him against. RBT's will mow him down right quick ,adn their lord level fighty characters are based around not dying to big nasties who take advantage of t3.

all in all i love the shaggy but think their a bit overpriced.