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Vedar
15-07-2009, 23:17
A friend of mine is making his own SM chapter very.... unique.

He gave himself a MC leader mostly based off a Daemon Prince. I think he under costed it by quite a bit and wanted to know how others would cost this.

WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
7 5 6 6 4 5 4 10 2+

Wings or Jetpack
Monstrous Creature
Counts as a Daemon
Fearless
4+ Inv Save
Eternal Warrior

Warptime
Fires 2 Krak Missles.

What do you think would be a fair point cost for a SM MC?

Vaktathi
15-07-2009, 23:22
Well...basically it looks like a flying Nurgle prince with a Tzeentch invul save, Warptime, a 2+ save and a Cyclone ML.

I'd say 250/275pts.

Archangel_Ruined
15-07-2009, 23:26
I'd tell him to use the daemon prince rules, they're priced already. He can then use the entire chaos codex and stop any problems before they start.

totgeboren
15-07-2009, 23:41
have to agree. If he want a Daemon Prince to lead his force, why doesn't he just use the Chaos Codex?

It looks, hmmm, its better than both Calgar and Abbadon, the two most über dudes in the game... I would say about 300 pts.

I mean, that profile and those guns, combined with warp-time means he can probably take on Abbadon 1on1 and win. Since Abbadon can only really do anything in cc, and only moves as normal infantry, and is supposed to be maybe the most dangerous individual on the Chaos side of the fence, I would say this model has no place in any normal 40k game. Apocalypse sure, but not normal 40k.

Ekranoplan
15-07-2009, 23:44
This guy pretty much just has all the best strengths of everything.

Movement, durability, assault, and shooting. It has a tool for every job, and it really shouldn't.

Fo'Shizzle
15-07-2009, 23:45
Well...basically it looks like a flying Nurgle prince with a Tzeentch invul save, Warptime, a 2+ save and a Cyclone ML.

I'd say 250/275pts.

I was thinking the same thing came up with about 270 off the top of my head.

ManusMarines
15-07-2009, 23:52
Tell him to rename his creation "Primarch *insert name here*" and use it only in apoc.

3+/5++ save would be a little more fair, as well as eliminating the Eternal Warrior rule.
He's already got the guy at T6, which means it won't die to anything automatically save a Force Weapon.

With it's current load out, I'd say anything shy of 300 would be highway robbery.

Mannimarco
15-07-2009, 23:53
what is this thing? 280 at least

it has WS7 S6 I5 and 4 attacks with warptime, it has T6 and eternal warrior which is kinnda an odd combo

and it can fire 2 krak missles at BS5?

man ive missed herohammer, this thing could have a pretty good crack at abbadon and that doesnt seem right at all

LonelyPath
16-07-2009, 00:11
As the MC stands now... I think 300 points would do it.

Bunnahabhain
16-07-2009, 00:38
Tell him to rename his creation "Primarch *insert name here*" and use it only in apoc.

3+/5++ save would be a little more fair, as well as eliminating the Eternal Warrior rule.
He's already got the guy at T6, which means it won't die to anything automatically save a Force Weapon.

With it's current load out, I'd say anything shy of 300 would be highway robbery.


Seconded.

If he wants to use it in normal game, I''ll introduce it to my equally well balanced, sensible and fitting the background unit: AV20/20/20 skimmer Leman Russ, with added machine spirit

Askari
16-07-2009, 01:01
If he wants a Daemon Prince then play Chaos Space Marines.

Seriously, they already took our Relic Blades and AV13 Dreadnoughts :p

Illiterate Scribe
16-07-2009, 01:04
Well, let's compare it to a Lord of Change, which are generally held to be overcosted, but a homebrew thing should be overcosted.

Statline: better WS and A (where he would most likely be anyway, so there's more weight on these stats), but otherwise pretty similar. Otherwise, he's much the same - 2+/4++ might seem preferable to 3++, but not so much in practice, since a hard, lone target like this is going to be an AT fire magnet.

Movement: Both the same, daemon gets (blech) daemonic assault, which is either a good or bad thing. Jet pack is different, and rarer than wings, although I can't see JSJ as very useful on something with these sorts of CC stats.

Special rules: Daemon, MC, EW, fearless. On both. Equal here.

Other special abilities: LoC has bolt of Tzeentch (less range but more power than a krak missile), soul devourer (not massively useful on him) and daemonic gaze. This guy can fire two shots at better range (which, again, shouldn't be an issue, since he should be up close, but the second shot definitely puts him on better ground - that said, his AT attacks won't be at such a premium in a marine army), and has warptime. This is, in my view, a problem. Like the extra WS and A above, this acts as a force multiplier, since it's much more useful to a big gribbly MC than a sorceror. While the SM codex doesn't share my view on this, IIRC, I'd still charge more for this ability suite. 50+ points for the lot, on top of the LoC's 250?

In conclusion, I'd want to test it in a game first, but probably somewhere around 300, maybe a bit over, as he's a bit like a LoC + a bit (probably a more apposite base than the CSM DP, on account of the rawket lawnchairs). He's not worth that much, and he won't make his points back (he doesn't fill any major weaknesses, doesn't act as a force multiplier, etc), but that's the price you pay for homebrew.

xerxeshavelock
16-07-2009, 01:07
A friend of mine is making his own SM chapter very.... unique.

He gave himself a MC leader mostly based off a Daemon Prince. I think he under costed it by quite a bit and wanted to know how others would cost this.

WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
7 5 6 6 4 5 4 10 2+

Wings or Jetpack
Monstrous Creature
Counts as a Daemon
Fearless
4+ Inv Save
Eternal Warrior

Warptime
Fires 2 Krak Missles.

What do you think would be a fair point cost for a SM MC?


What would be fair? If I was playing it - 200. If I was playing against it - 300.

Seriously, the thing is miles better than a Daemon Prince - while it's not the silliest thing I ever saw suggested it's up there. If he has a cool figure in mind and those rules fit the bill then fair play to him, but it's too removed from the codex to be anything other than scenario-driven or Apocalypse.

Make sure you have an arch-nemesis to fight against it, failing that an evil twin!

Edit:Illiterate Scribe, not to disagree, but I think that could easily make up 300 points in a game - the Winged DP with MoS and Warptime I usually field often comes in at that kind of number and this is far stronger.

Illiterate Scribe
16-07-2009, 01:16
Edit:Illiterate Scribe, not to disagree, but I think that could easily make up 300 points in a game - the Winged DP with MoS and Warptime I usually field often comes in at that kind of number and this is far stronger.

Meh, depends on the metagame, and one's priorities. The low cost of your DP means that it isn't worth shooting down as much, whereas this is much more juicy.

Wise Guy Sam
16-07-2009, 01:31
I'd say 350. The reason I'd slap on another 50 points isn't because of the worth of the unit, but the fact it brings something brand new to a SM army. Their is no such unit already, something like this for SM’s would really change the balance of the whole list and I would imagine re task a lot of the current units.

IMO use the chaos codex and be done with it. Still use Vanilla models, call his marines 'slightly left wing' chapter and call it a day.

As a side note, I would still play him, because a game is about fun, however with that state line I would wonder if he was playing for fun’zees as well?!?

Green Shoes
16-07-2009, 02:27
I wouldn't let him use it.

There is no precedent for anything like that in the SM codex, and it seems like it is just a blatant attempt to make an OP character.

Based on what you have told us, I will now make a generalization of the player in question:

Younger (12-18 y.o.)
SM is his first army
Newer player
Not well-versed in the game rules
Not well-versed in the fluff
Not very good at the game

Now this may seem particularly callous and harsh, but from what those stats are saying, this is exactly the kind of player I imagine.

Unless he would throw a violent fit, quit the game, or you two would fall out of friendship, I would never let him use this outside of Apocalypse, or you have a similarly OP character.

12345_7
16-07-2009, 02:33
I'd say 350 or a little higher because of this:
Daemon Prince of Chaos (Chaos Daemons) - 80
Daemonic Flight - 60
Iron Hide - 30
Unholy Might - 20
Mark of Nurgle - 30
Mark of Tzeentch - 25
Bolt of Tzeentch - 35
Bolt of Tzeentch - 35

Total = 315

Obviously, this wouldn't accurately display the true cost because of differences like a 2+ armour save instead of a 3+ and the warp time psychic ability.

To be honest, I think that this thing is overpowered and a little to strange to be in a Space Marine army. First reason is because I have no idea, and I don't know about space marine's history so correct me if i'm wrong, why a MC would be a psyker. (Does he have a familiar to give him the power? Can you even get a familiar in the SM book?) Second is that unless I saw it and knew it was 100% tangibly true I would never in a million years expect a Daemon to be allying and would be allowed (And not perscecuted by the GK and DH) to ally with the Emperor's men. Also, with that much power you might as well call him a Daemon Prince. That much Daemonic power must have been obtained by the CG's through much kill of the Emperor's men, their own men they are fighting with and ordering. I think you get the point, but basically what I'm saying is that he might need to recreate his MC. He should remove the Daemon special rule from the profile unless he gives an explicit background dealing with as to why he is one. (Maybe they can lure and take the power from Daemons.)

IMO this just sounds like your friend is creating a chapter as an excuse to field this amazing character, which might also be proven by his original underpointing of it. If he wants to continue with it, I would ask him to create a descriptive and understanding background that shows how he came to be and how his chapter is effected by it or revise
the model so that is a little more easy to understand. (make him a huge robot and remove the Daemon special rule)

sic
16-07-2009, 02:48
It sounds like he wants to have his cake but eat it too......I would say if you want a demon prince play chaos space marines, having an 'Imperial prince' leading space marines is a bit much for me, you get all the perks of having a MC but with all the neat units marines can get that chaos cant.
A bit like the marines taking baneblades really.

tacoo
16-07-2009, 07:03
Heh, dont give GW any reason to through a imperial deamon prince into the next codex, surprised they havent

but seriously, i would say yes in he 300 point mark, has to be HQ, 0-1 limit, then make your own character and then have some fun. me and my friends are trying to do this, and we found that after you play a couple games, tone him down till they start to come to normall power levels.