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matticusmaximus
15-07-2009, 22:43
Hey everyone. Starting up an Empire force and I wanted to see what you thought of the list.

What appeals to me about the empire is not the fancy toys or shootiness, but the balance and the flexibility of the army. Oh yeah, detachments :D

-General of the Empire w/ Wyrmslayer Sword, Shield of the Gorgon, Rod of Command, full plate armor: 182

-Captain BSB w/ Griffon Standard, full plate armor: 138

-Warrior Priest w/ barded warhorse, heavy armor, shield, Hammer of Judgement, Ring of Volans: 155

-Battle Wizard w/ lvl 2 upgrade, Rod of Power: 130
-29 Spearmen w/ shields, full command: 194
-Detachment: 9 Halberdiers: 45
-Detachment: 5 Handgunners: 40

-24 Swordsmen w/ full command, War Banner: 194
-Detachment: 9 Halberdiers: 45
-Detachment: 5 Handgunners: 40

-10 Handgunners: 80

-10 Handgunners: 80

-5 Knights w/ musician: 123

-5 Knights w/ musician: 123

-Great Cannon: 100

-Great Cannon: 100

-5 Outriders w/ musician, champion, Hochland Long Rifle: 134

-5 Pistoliers w/ musician: 97

That's it! No Helblasters, no tanks!

Basic idea for the list is classic hammer/anvil. Set up the two big infantry blocks and their detachments in the middle of the board with the general and the BSB. Fast cav goes out on the flanks, along with the knights. Warrior priest rides with a knight unit, preferably nearby the Outrider champ so he can use the Hammer of Sigmar + Long Rifle combo. Battle Wizard does his thing, Great cannons and handgunners do their thing.

The concerns for this army are as such:

1. Magic phase: I've only got 4 dispel dice and no scrolls. The armies I will be facing will include High Elves, Dark Elves, and WoC. In our gaming group we've capped magic at 6 levels per army, but I really do not want to be on the wrong end of an infernal gateway cast... In order to nullify this somewhat, I've included the Rod of Power, so I can sacrifice my offensive magic to beef up my magic defense. My offensive magic phase should be at least satisfactory, with the battle wizard supplying his spells, and the warrior priest tossing out both a prayer and a bound spell from the Ring of Volans.

2. Shooting. Am I going too heavy on the shooting, and are there better static CR/close combat options that I'm missing out on because I'm running 30 handgunners, 5 pistoliers, 5 outriders, and 2 cannons? It seems like a lot of shooting, but I don't think it to be excessive after seeing my Dwarf friend roll with 6 bolt throwers and 2 organ guns...

3. Expense of units. We all know Empire units get slaughtered by other races' superior shooting and elite troops. Are there any units in the list that are too expensive for what they're accomplishing, and could be shaved down to deny easy VPs?

Thanks in advance for the feedback!

Caboose123
16-07-2009, 00:42
Caboose is here!


Hey everyone. Starting up an Empire force and I wanted to see what you thought of the list.

Fair enough... I shall help!

What appeals to me about the empire is not the fancy toys or shootiness, but the balance and the flexibility of the army. Oh yeah, detachments :D

^ Isn't that the only reason Empire are played? :p

-General of the Empire w/ Wyrmslayer Sword, Shield of the Gorgon, Rod of Command, full plate armor: 182

A couple of things here...
-Wyrmslayer sword... I won't lie, its an odd choice. Would a humble sword of might not be as good? (At least against things of T5 or lower).
-I'm biased as I personally dislike Generals of the Empire, you have a BSB, so if you took a Grand Master you would have Ld9 with re-rolls, instead of Ld10 with re-rolls, is that not good enough?
-Rod of Command is a very awesome piece of equip allowing you to even hold when outnumbered by a fear causing enemy, its one weakness though is that your character still needs to be alive by the end of the turn. You're guy up there only has a 4+ save. You have Ld 10 with re-rolls, will it really be needed? Maybe drop this, or switch to a Grand Master and keep this. Icon of Magnus could be handy if you are scared of Fear causers.
-If not for fluff, or model restrictions, there are precious few reasons why your character shouldn't be mounted on a barded steed.

-Captain BSB w/ Griffon Standard, full plate armor: 138

I like, again though he needs to be alive by the end of the combat, a difficult feat with only a 4+ save. He could be mounted?

-Warrior Priest w/ barded warhorse, heavy armor, shield, Hammer of Judgement, Ring of Volans: 155

Not bad, I like the hammer. The Ring of Volans is hard to dispel, but its one use only and random. I prefer the Orb of Thunder to ground all flyers, or the Doomfire Ring to cause opponents (not viable versus Elves or Chaos thuogh :p) Additionally Van Horstmann's Speculum can be handy so you can go toe-to-toe with their Uber-killy death lords of ouch.

-Battle Wizard w/ lvl 2 upgrade, Rod of Power: 130

1 Warrior Priest, and a single Lv2 mage could struggle in the magic phase. The Rod does help for offense or defense, but with only 1 mage I would just stick to a scroll caddy.

-29 Spearmen w/ shields, full command: 194
-Detachment: 9 Halberdiers: 45
-Detachment: 5 Handgunners: 40

-24 Swordsmen w/ full command, War Banner: 194
-Detachment: 9 Halberdiers: 45
-Detachment: 5 Handgunners: 40

-10 Handgunners: 80

-10 Handgunners: 80

All of the infantry here is fine, I can see no problems.

-5 Knights w/ musician: 123

-5 Knights w/ musician: 123

Musician? Another odd choice, you say these guys aren't for baiting (the Pistoliers do that!) and if they flank a unit in combat with the swordsmen the swordsmen already have a musician (and enough meat to protect it :evilgrin:). Instead I'd go for a Unit Champion, who can challenge and soak up hits with his 2+ save, or even save the points!

-Great Cannon: 100

-Great Cannon: 100

-5 Outriders w/ musician, champion, Hochland Long Rifle: 134

-5 Pistoliers w/ musician: 97

Everything here seems fine as well. I thought about suggesting a Helblaster instead of a Cannon, as an alternative anti-Large Target killer, but only if you intend to sit back and wait for your enemy to come to you, its short range is killer!

Basic idea for the list is classic hammer/anvil. Set up the two big infantry blocks and their detachments in the middle of the board with the general and the BSB. Fast cav goes out on the flanks, along with the knights. Warrior priest rides with a knight unit, preferably nearby the Outrider champ so he can use the Hammer of Sigmar + Long Rifle combo. Battle Wizard does his thing, Great cannons and handgunners do their thing.

Simple plans are often the best. I imagine it would be best to have your 2 Hlaberdiers in the exact centre of your deployment zone, so if the knights decide to turn in and flank, the enemy's flanks isn't obscured by Halberdiers. The main problem is the battle on the flanks, can you win?

The concerns for this army are as such:

1. Magic phase: I've only got 4 dispel dice and no scrolls. The armies I will be facing will include High Elves, Dark Elves, and WoC. In our gaming group we've capped magic at 6 levels per army, but I really do not want to be on the wrong end of an infernal gateway cast... In order to nullify this somewhat, I've included the Rod of Power, so I can sacrifice my offensive magic to beef up my magic defense. My offensive magic phase should be at least satisfactory, with the battle wizard supplying his spells, and the warrior priest tossing out both a prayer and a bound spell from the Ring of Volans.

I'm unsure about the last bit, I suggested a caddy. This should shore up your defense.

2. Shooting. Am I going too heavy on the shooting, and are there better static CR/close combat options that I'm missing out on because I'm running 30 handgunners, 5 pistoliers, 5 outriders, and 2 cannons? It seems like a lot of shooting, but I don't think it to be excessive after seeing my Dwarf friend roll with 6 bolt throwers and 2 organ guns...

Nah, I'd still categorise this as "balanced" or at the very least mobile. It has 2 big combat units, 2 smaller combat units, 2 units of knights and the Pistoliers. Again though I'd be biased, as an empire player...

3. Expense of units. We all know Empire units get slaughtered by other races' superior shooting and elite troops. Are there any units in the list that are too expensive for what they're accomplishing, and could be shaved down to deny easy VPs?

Hmmm, eventually you'll have to deal with them. Van Horstmann's could probably swing 1 combat in your favour (Especially versus Vampire Counts and Demons). Otherwise flanking their units, big static combat resolution bonuses and tying up their characters with nigh-indestructable characters (Lord with Dawn Armour, Shield, Holy Relic, and a Barded Steed; eat my 1+ (rerollable) save with a 4+ ward!). This is how Empire win. If this fails, redirect with these throwaway units: (In order of preference)
-Pistoliers
-Handgunner Detachments
-Halberdier Detachments
-Knights
-Outriders

Thanks in advance for the feedback!

Yeah, I think I've said all I need...


EDIT: I suggested Orb of Thunder or Doomfire Ring on the priest as a replacement to the Ring of Volans. Obviously if you do switch to a Lv1 Mage this could be scrapped.

matticusmaximus
16-07-2009, 05:12
Interesting. If I were to take a Templar Grand Master, what should I do with him. Kit him out for combat, stick him with knights and sit behind the infantry blocks? This way he could still spread around his leadership bubble, and countercharge any killy units that threaten to break the line. Or should I stick him out on a flank and hope for the best?

chickenworm
16-07-2009, 05:54
Your army list is quite similar to the one I used with a few exceptions. I wouldn't comment on the equipment of your general but you can mount him on a barded warhorse for the additional armor save. Likewise for your BSB.

On the knights, I would do the same as you do. 5 knights with musician. These are very effective flank guards to ward off smaller annoying units.

I would have less handgunners compared to you and use the points for another unit of knights with musician. You'll have to fork out another 43 points though. I just don't really like empire handgunners (5+ to hit most of the time, probably could only get 2 AP wounds).

Magic wise, I would say let the magic missiles get off but dispel those scary spells. Your blocks would be able to sustain damage and your knights have enough armor to take care of themselves. Potentially 7 dispel dice (3 from RoP), defense is quite ok per round.

Don't worry about your shooting, you don't have too much of it to be even come close to be considered a gunline. Afterall, your shooting are just some support shooting and not your main offense (your blocks).

The only expensive unit that you have are the two infantry blocks. Guard them well and make sure you counter-charge, assist charge well with your detachments.

From what I see, it's a very balanced list. Most importantly, enjoy your games than worry about how you'll perform.

Caboose123
16-07-2009, 15:32
^
Obviously, I'm fallible, and peoples opinions will vary! :D

I'd take the Templar Grand Master, and stick him with the state troops (Thats allowed, right?). He could still have the Rod of Command if you want. After that he could have the Shroud of Magnus, or other stuff like Holy Relic, so he can challenge enemy characters absorbing their blows and thus save combat resolution. Or any other combos you can think of, maybe some hitting power wouldn't go amiss either.

P.S. Obviously, Chickenworm and have different opinions but theres nothing in his post I'd strongly disagree with. Its all preference after all. That said, when using the Rod of Power isn't it best to only get 2 dice, it would be a shame if those dice were wasted and I'm much more comfortable passing a 3+ rather than a 4+...