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calmsword
05-01-2006, 02:07
the primarch of the Iron Hands chapter killed something described as a dragon, his hands turning into "living metal." now this is a curse that comes with having contact with C'tan (look at the Ultramarine in Nightbringer who had his forarm removed) so, could it be that the Primarch managed ax off on of the C'tan and if so, there being only 4 left, it could only have been either the Dragon or the Outsider which brings up the question of which one is on mars?
to counter this perhaps it was a fifth C'tan as there is an Eldar farseer quote in the 'Cron dex about him "seeing" all of the C'tan worlds and how they differ.
what do you think?
~good hunting

Khaine's Messenger
05-01-2006, 02:40
the primarch of the Iron Hands chapter killed something described as a dragon

Which could have been anything, really. While Medusa is theoretically a known Necrontyr tombworld ("maybe"), it is not guaranteed that any creature described as a "great silver wyrm" (Asirnoth) is by default a C'tan, much less the C'tan known as the Void Dragon.


(look at the Ultramarine in Nightbringer who had his forarm removed)

The usual curse of being touched by a C'tan is an onset of severe necrosis. Pasanius' hand notwithstanding....


so, could it be that the Primarch managed ax off on of the C'tan

Possible, but improbable. Given that he soaked it in lava for a bit, I doubt the method of inhumation chosen would really phase even a weakened energy being of C'tan proportions much (perhaps even strengthen it), especially when the corpse isn't noted for going boom as "dying" necrodermis normally do.


and if so, there being only 4 left

A destroyed necrodermis does not guarantee a dead C'tan. EG, Nightbringer.

Kage2020
05-01-2006, 02:53
For me? No, the Dragon is not dead. GW has far too many superficial checks and balances in the 'fluff' for that to be so. Far too many.

Kage

TheSonOfAbbadon
05-01-2006, 03:44
If you're talking about the Void Dragon, then no, he's not dead, he's just in a state of unconciousness/stasis.

And the Outsider is imprisoned in a Dyson Sphere somewhere below the galactic plain.

Kage2020
05-01-2006, 03:56
Of course, one gets into the funky territory that creates these questions when one answers solely from the 'fluff'... ;)

Kage

calmsword
05-01-2006, 05:38
well- then by possibility there might have been a fifth- i know all about the necrodermis bit, however it has not been stated fully that a C'tan cannot die- i know only of debate currently. i realize that the question might be easily answered as a "no" however with one C'tan definitatly ony Mars, another two loose and a fourth MIA (Dyson sphere, is that factualy?) what was it that the primarch faced.
and, im sorry, but Pasanius is afflicted with the identicle symptoms of the primarch. a hand that has "living meta;" which repairs itself upon damage. am i wrong?
~good hunting

Khaine's Messenger
05-01-2006, 05:59
however it has not been stated fully that a C'tan cannot die

It is unlikely they would do so in their necrodermis under a lava flow, however, especially if the warp gods considered it a necessity to build weapons capable of annihilating planets to destroy the C'tan. Which brings up the question of just how interesting Manus must be to survive such conditions...but he was a Primarch, so I suppose we can leave that aspect alone.


(Dyson sphere, is that factualy?)

There is probably a C'tan within a bizarre world where the edges curve up, as described by the Mad Adept Corteswain, and a balled up sunlike entity watched by the Harlequins or somesuch...but I suppose it falls to you to make that call.


what was it that the primarch faced.

The world may never know. The IA states that tales of the Primarch's iron hands predate the story of his coming to have them, so it may well be lost to the tides of time as to their origins. Asirnoth was most likely a Necrontyr construct, but since the only person known to bear witness to the struggle directly was Ferrus Manus himself, it may be possible that the entire thing was a myth cooked up along the same lines as Leman Russ's sword's ability to cleave mountains in half. The Shadow Lands (iirc) were an established fact of Medusan folklore, as its inhabitants probably were, so Manus' spectacular metal hands are easy to explain within the context of established tradition.


and, im sorry, but Pasanius is afflicted with the identicle symptoms of the primarch. a hand that has "living meta;" which repairs itself upon damage. am i wrong?

No, you're quite right, but the most common affliction of those struck by a C'tan is severe necrosis (as represented by the rule that disallows bionics and regen abilities and their broad association with being the harbingers of death). Since Pasanius' actual bionics were of Imperial manufacture (iirc; despite the "curse" attached to it), one might also come to question the nature of Manus' "affliction" as well as the aquisition of his assets.

Wraith
05-01-2006, 08:18
I always post this when this... 'topic'... arises...

It's 'food-for-thought' and rehtorical though -- there's absolutely no way Ferrus ever encountered the Void Dragon.

If you want to believe so despite this and the other comments here fair enough, ultimately the entire issue is the result of plot hooks GW include in old fluff and then ignore/contradict with new fluff.


1. The Void Dragon retired to Mars as his tomb world when the C'tan went into hibernation. IMHO we know it was his tomb world because it appears on the map at the back of the necron codex AND it forms one of the corners of the inverted pyramid like the other tomb worlds as well as other refferences in WD and the Necron codex ('vaul moon' etc).

Is Medusa mentioned on the map? No. Could Medusa be the Void Dragon's original tomb world? Unlikely because it ruins the pyramid shape.

So why would the Void Dragon wake travel to Medusa and fight Ferrus?

There is no motivation for the Void Dragon doing this so IMHO it never happened.

More so if the Void Dragon awoke during this time why didn't anyone notice on Mars? Why didn't the hungry Void Dragon feed on Sol?

2. Time frame.

The Iron Hands article was written long before the new Necron Codex and it is entirely possible that the concept of the C'tan were not finalised at the point of its creation. Indeed originally the C'tan weren't the 'stargods' they are now.

Iron Hands were WD 262...

Necrons were WD 271...

That is 9 WDs difference... as in 9 months real time.

The Necron Designers notes would indicate that the C'tan were only really established as what they are now in the last few months before printing began... around WD 67 - WD 68.

The Iron Hands background was written long before the C'tan were even finalised as a race of "star-gods" (I use the term loosely).

3. The 'wyrms' description

From the Necron Codex we know that while the necrodermis can take on any form the C'tan wish they prefer to take the appearance of humanoids (it says this quite clearly).

Why would the Void Dragon change his appearance to this 'wyrm' type creature?

4. The Deciever

The Necron Codex states quite clearly that the Deciever was the first to wake among the C'tan.

5. Comparative Power

The Nighbtringer managed to take on the Eldar God Khaine and almost managed to 'kill' him (from the description at least). The Void Dragon has 'recently' been described as the most powerful of all the C'tan yet according to this *theory* one of the primarchs bested him.

This makes no sense to me and even more bizarrely the logical follow through would be to state ferrus manus could destroy Khaine...

Conclusion

This passage most likely suffers the same flaw as the story 'Deux ex mechanica' - it was written at a time when the fluff was yet to be finalised in regards to the C'tan so looking back at it it doesn't make any sense.

Sikkukkut
05-01-2006, 10:14
If you're talking about the Void Dragon, then no, he's not dead, he's just in a state of unconciousness/stasis.

I can't believe no-one's made a "pining for the fjords" joke y--

D'oh!

FieronThor
05-01-2006, 12:21
I believe that what Ferrus encountered was some sort of guardian of that world, that the Necrons left behind. It is entirely possible that Medusa, due to its proximity to the Eye and therefore the old Eldar empire, could of been a bastion world (not a tomb world as such) for the Necrons.

Icarus
07-01-2006, 16:55
Wraith, your set of arguments there is pretty concrete, apart from this:

IWhy would the Void Dragon change his appearance to this 'wyrm' type creature?
A Wyrm is a type of Dragon, just for the record. In fact in many fantasy settings it has become synonymous with Dragon or Dragonkind. :D

TheSonOfAbbadon
08-01-2006, 00:54
I can't believe no-one's made a "pining for the fjords" joke y--

D'oh!

Look, it's not dead! The Void Dragon prefers kipping on its back.

Tiberius Frost
08-01-2006, 01:40
's got beautiful plumage, 'asn't it?

Harlequin'sDance
08-01-2006, 03:21
Is there some reason this 'wyrm' couldn't be a wraith?

Aun'aart'al
08-01-2006, 06:31
If you're talking about the Void Dragon, then no, he's not dead, he's just in a state of unconciousness/stasis.


Im curious as to how you came upon this theory (is that the right word?), because my SM chapter revolves around the Void Dragon (literally! its so heavily involved! :eek: )

TheSonOfAbbadon
08-01-2006, 07:08
Well, he's definitely not awake, the galaxy would be screwed if he was.

Aun'aart'al
08-01-2006, 07:09
Well, he's definitely not awake, the galaxy would be screwed if he was.

Not true. For all we know this "Void Dragon" could just be weak, and perhaps needs to replenish its powers before it can strike again? just an idea..

TheSonOfAbbadon
08-01-2006, 07:39
The Nightbringer is weak compared to how strong it used to be and needs to replenish itself. The Void Dragon far surpasses the power of the Nightbringer.

He'd be like 500 points if they made a model of him... and he'd have Necron lords as troops.

Vosk
08-01-2006, 08:43
Heh, you mean upgraded Necron Lords, don't you? :P

Seriously though, something about the phrase "Images of the Sleeping Dragon" tells me he's, how shall I put it, less than awake right now. And were he to wake up, there is no way he would be in the same state that the Nightbringer was in - the Dragon has been feeding off of machines and/or silly humnas for who knows how long.

The only reason the Nightbringer was weakened upon awakening was because his feeder ship of infinite doom was sent hurtling into the Warp by a fleet of Old Ones, Eldar and their cronies. Deceiver certainly wasn't, and it's highly doubtlful the Outsider would be either. Gibbering loony, yes - but starving, nope.

FieronThor
08-01-2006, 08:58
Just a really naive question, in what order would you put the various C'Tan's powers/capabilties/destructiveness?

Aun'aart'al
08-01-2006, 09:00
wouldnt it be something like..

Void Dragon
Nightbringer
Deciever
{unknown C'tan}

?? :confused:

Mechanicus
08-01-2006, 09:32
wouldnt it be something like..

Void Dragon
Nightbringer
Deciever
{unknown C'tan}

No, the fourth C'tan is the Outsider; When talking about the C'tan:

That which lies outside shall be drawn to the Harvest
IE the Outsider.


... a great war of ascendancy between the C'tan. The nomadic Harlequins have a legend, recounted barely once every century, about the lunacy of the Outsider...
The Outsider being insane.


Emmissaries of the one who dwells beyond awaited and attacked us...
...a horizon that stretched up and around to enclose a bloated red sun...

I have seen the writhing, inverted geometries of the Outsider...
The Outsider being in the Necron equivilant of a Dyson sphere.


Just a really naive question, in what order would you put the various C'Tan's powers/capabilties/destructiveness?

The Dragon is stated as being the most powerful,
Then probably the Outsider, though only because the Nightbringer is weakened,
Then the Nightbringer,
and finally the Deciever is stated as being the weakest.

Scorpio
08-01-2006, 16:20
now im just saying this but there is a class of eldar starships called the void dragons. they are rare and from what i have heard only used by the dark reapers but could that be it?:confused:

Harlequin'sDance
08-01-2006, 17:03
Hopefully someone can provide me an answer to the question I asked earlier. Is there anything in the IA or Codex Necrons that says that this 'wyrm' who gave Ferrus his living metal hands couldn't simply have been a wraith?

Wraith
08-01-2006, 17:36
Is there anything in the IA or Codex Necrons that says that this 'wyrm' who gave Ferrus his living metal hands couldn't simply have been a wraith?

No there is nothing of that sort, remember not much of anything Necron/C'tan had been fully developed at the time of publishing the article.

Some people claim necron constructs aren't made of living metal but then, living metal in the current context didn't exist in the fluff at that time.

Harlequin'sDance
08-01-2006, 17:49
Is it outright stated which constructs are of living metal and which aren't? And if so, where does the wraith stand?

Wraith
08-01-2006, 19:22
Is it outright stated which constructs are of living metal...

Necrodermis, necron ships, monoliths, and necron warscythes are specifically stated as being made of living metal.


...and which aren't?

Personal opinion comes into play here... off the top of my head nothing is specifically stated as *not* being made of living metal.


And if so, where does the wraith stand?

Unkown (see above).

Goatboy
08-01-2006, 22:54
When I first read the IH index astares artical I assumed(as this was before the Necron codex) that the wyrm was some kind of construct created by Humans during the dark age of technology.
But now post Necron codex I'd say it was some kind of as yet unknown(posibly unique) Necron or one of there creations. The Necrons are only just starting to come out of stasis, with there current forces just an expansion of the old raiding list. Who knows what they could still have in storage?

Khaine's Messenger
08-01-2006, 23:16
In fact, the only things that links Medusa to any Necron activity is our own speculation and the vague descriptions of Iron Father Gdolkin's induction quest into the Land of Shadows (which describes something that sounds like a Necron Wraith but could just as well not be). As I stated in a long-dead thread, "Great Silver Wyrm" could have been anything from a hyper-intelligent humvee to all manner of DAoT constructs (of which we must remember the Men of Iron were prominent members), simply due to how Medusans would have perceived such things.

Hate Train
09-01-2006, 00:25
In regards to the original topic, the Void Dragon is not dead, but in stasis.

I was wondering if anyone could inform me on what a Necrodermis is? I myself have the Necron Codex, but I haven't read it in a while, so my fluff is out of date.

buried_alive
09-01-2006, 00:46
Whats the connection between Eldar Harlequins and Necrons? Arent Harlequins, (fluff wise in the loosest sense possible) Eldar demon hunter/expert type chappies

Harlequin'sDance
09-01-2006, 00:58
Not really, no.

They keep the ancient Eldar histories alive, travel and teach them, guard the webways, fight chaos, and do any other little miscellaneous jobs they think need to be done. In addition, the nastiest of the solitaires also guard the black library.

They're somewhere in between troubadours, inquisitors, assassins, and historians.

Khaine's Messenger
09-01-2006, 00:58
I was wondering if anyone could inform me on what a Necrodermis is?

A C'tan's environmental containment suit, made of living metal; pretty much the only thing that makes them even vaguely resemble a more recognizable form of entity. That is, it seems to be more a vessel than a body. Of course, there's the irony about water and the vessels it fills....


Whats the connection between Eldar Harlequins and Necrons?

The Harlequins have a few stories about their patron (Cegorach) and his involvement in the War in Heaven that they tell as a part of their portrayal in dance of the Eldar Mythic Cycles. Other than the concern they seem to have with the possible return of the Outsider and the Necrons in general, we don't really know of any specific connection between the Harlies and the Necrons.


Arent Harlequins, (fluff wise in the loosest sense possible) Eldar demon hunter/expert type chappies

Only loosely speaking. More definitely, they are servants of their God, who has many of his own schemes relating to many topics, of which Chaos is but one element....

Emperor's Grace
09-01-2006, 03:26
No, the fourth C'tan is the Outsider; When talking about the C'tan:

Page 5, Necron Codex
That which lies outside shall be drawn to the Harvest

IE the Outsider.

I always that that this quote was actually a reference to the Tyranids.

The come from outside the galaxy and consume what the C'Tan consider their "harvest".

Icarus
09-01-2006, 04:06
Funnily enough there is a conspiracy theory that the Outsider and the Tyranids are connected in some way, that it exerts some control over them or at least drew them towards our galaxy.

As to the connection between the Harlequins and the C'tan, as has been stated they are extremely concerned about the possible return of the Outsider. The history related to this is that the Harlequin's Laughing God, Cegorach, was pivotal in the War in Heaven by tricking the Outsider into eating other C'tan, destroying all but the 4 that remain today. It was an extremely important part of the war. Furthermore Cegorach's actions drove the Outsider insane and caused it to leave our galaxy.

Another important link is that it was the Laughing God who provided Khaine with the information he needed in order to defeat the Nightbringer.

Wraith
09-01-2006, 06:53
Furthermore Cegorach's actions drove the Outsider insane and caused it to leave our galaxy.

The C'tan the Outsider ate drove it insane, having been tricked into doing so by the Laughing God, and he retreated from the galaxy into his dyson sphere.

ankellagung
09-01-2006, 08:56
Indeed, but we don't know which Laughing God do we? i.e. it could have been the Deciever (AFAIK also known as the Jackal and the Laughing God, among others), in a ploy for power which went horribly wrong (or horribly right, only now coming to fruition?)? Or am I crazy. I don't have the Necron/Eldar codexes, so I could be crazy.......

TheSaint
09-01-2006, 09:28
Might the Outsider therefore be "The Hive Mind"????

Cowhuggermike
09-01-2006, 09:28
I thought the laughing god and the Deciever were one in the same too but apparently the Laughing God lives in the Warp which is fatal to the C'tan. But what is really interesting is that in most fluff it says the Deciever tricked the C'tan in devouring the other C'tan while in the Eldar belief it was the Laughing God who tricked them into eating each other. Maybe the Deciever really is the Laughing God and "decieved" them into thinking that he resides in the warp. Wouldn't be the first time.

As for the the primarch killing the "silver wrym" it is believed by the most noteworthy necron fluff masters that the silver wrym is actually a necron warrior equivalent for the Dragon C'tan. It is stated in the fluff that the Dragon is the most powerful of 4 C'tan able to shape reality itself and that his followers are the most powerful of the 4(who said the C'tan had to have Necrontyr slaves, plus the C'tan hate each other and it would be highly unlikely to have the same followers as the other C'tan). It is also stated that the followers of the dragon are shaped to his likeness.
Read this for some more info:http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/eldar-mythology/3/

What really intrigues me about the C'tan though is the Outsider. People have told me that he resides in a dyson sphere measuring 1.04au which even the tyranids avoid(smart move on their part). According to my calculations this structure would be able to fit over 1 million of our suns inside it. All I have to say is that if the necrons ever harvest enough energy to start up whatever that this does there is no doubt as to who the warhammer galaxy will belong to.

Sikkukkut
09-01-2006, 11:32
now im just saying this but there is a class of eldar starships called the void dragons. they are rare and from what i have heard only used by the dark reapers but could that be it?:confused:

Are you sure you're not thinking of the Void Stalker?

Wraith
09-01-2006, 11:37
I thought the laughing god and the Deciever were one in the same too but apparently the Laughing God lives in the Warp which is fatal to the C'tan. But what is really interesting is that in most fluff it says the Deciever tricked the C'tan in devouring the other C'tan while in the Eldar belief it was the Laughing God who tricked them into eating each other. Maybe the Deciever really is the Laughing God and "decieved" them into thinking that he resides in the warp. Wouldn't be the first time.

He's in the web way not the warp.

The 'fatal' bit is a guess based on a vaguely worded quote in the codex.


It is also stated that the followers of the dragon are shaped to his likeness.

No it doesn't IIRC, 'the cripple and the dragon' only mentiones his necrons can channel electricity.


What really intrigues me about the C'tan though is the Outsider. People have told me that he resides in a dyson sphere measuring 1.04au which even the tyranids avoid(smart move on their part). According to my calculations this structure would be able to fit over 1 million of our suns inside it. All I have to say is that if the necrons ever harvest enough energy to start up whatever that this does there is no doubt as to who the warhammer galaxy will belong to.

The star inside is a red giant and thusly huge.