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Poseidal
16-07-2009, 08:58
Can you review my Wood Elf list, led by a Treeman Ancient?

Characters
1 Treeman Ancient, Nettings, Radiants @ 375

1 Noble, Alter, Light Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Helm of Hunt, Hail of Doom Arrow @ 158

1 Spellsings, Level 2, 2 x Dispel Scrolls @ 175

Core
10 Glade Guard @ 120
10 Glade Guard @ 120

8 Dryads @ 96
8 Dryads @ 96
8 Dryads @ 96

5 Glade Riders, Musician @ 129

Special
6 Wild Riders, Banner, Warbanner @ 199

7 Wardancers, Full Command @ 147

Rare
1 Treeman @ 285

willowdark
16-07-2009, 12:59
I like it. All the units are nice, neat and optimized. Both your specials are built the same way I build mine. Solid core as well.

Now, I don't want you to think that this suggestion has anything to do with the perception of dual treemen as cheese. If 7th ed armies can't beat 2 Treemen then they don't deserve to win.

But for 20 pts less, 265, 4 Treekin will just perform better than a second treeman any day. True, they're not Stubborn, but with twice the wounds, only 1 less AS and the same ward, they are just way too resilient, and hit like a ton of bricks. One well placed cannonball will ruin a Treeman, but you'd have to do 6! wounds to a unit of 4 Treekin to significantly reduce their combat potential. And even then they'd still break ranks.

4 Treekin run in tandem with either your treeman or a single unit of Dryads will own whatever area of the board you send them to. In most cases anyway.

With the 20 pts you'd save, combined with the 35 pts from dropping the extra level on your wizard, since you'd be loosing a bound spell and just won't be able to compete, you could pick up a Great Eagle, which would balance out the list nicely.

Poseidal
16-07-2009, 13:09
I might do that once I get hold of some Tree Kin replacements. I'm not too fond of the current models, and they're expensive too.

I'll probably convert from the tree set, or try and get some forest bears or something.

Tree kin look like they'll go well. When going 2250, I could probably squeeze some points nad fit both! though we're playing 2000 at my club currently.

064krusty
16-07-2009, 13:17
I find that a noble on great eagle works better then the alter as the extra movement and survivability and attacks from the eagle make him better and faster at marchblocking,warmachine and wizard hunting and supporting other units in close combat. I sometimes field both a noble on eagle and an alter noble in the same 2000 pt list but the eagle noble works better for me. Mostly play against dwarfs,lizards,brets,ogres and chaos

willowdark
16-07-2009, 13:23
Forest Bears. Oh yes, forest bears. :)

Wolf 11x
16-07-2009, 14:41
I don't see the necessity for Wardancers. That aside, I would get a BSB if you're going to run two Treemen. So far since taking my BSB, he has saved my regular Treeman twice in two games.

willowdark
16-07-2009, 15:13
Stubborn Ld9 is miles ahead of Stubborn Ld8, so I'd say that an Ancient is in less danger than a regular Man. That said, the BSB would be a great addition. I think that the SoM and the SotCM is the best build for one.

But I don't think it's worth trading the Wardancers for.

Poseidal
17-07-2009, 09:19
How would you run the BSB? does he go with a group or run around behind the Treemen/kin?

willowdark
17-07-2009, 11:57
Put him with the Wardancers. If you go with the SoM and the SotCM he will perform well in combat, and you Wardancers should really be close to the action anyway.

Alternatively, if you can find the points, you could mount him on an Eagle. Played well he should be almost impossible to catch, but he will be vulnerable to shooting. He would, however, be fast enough to threaten missile troops, and with the SoM he can threaten Wraiths as well. Dryads seem like the obvious answer to Wraiths, but it's nice to have options.

Wolf 11x
17-07-2009, 13:34
I don't take an Alter.

Instead, I take a BSB with Asyendi's Bane and the HoDA. He tends to hide either in Glade Guard or behind the two Treemen.

Poseidal
17-07-2009, 13:43
HoDA can't be combined with Asyendi's Bane (HoDA says all magical bow effects are ignored when you use it), and re-rolling the single S3 shot with his BS6 doesn't seem too strong to me.

Wolf 11x
17-07-2009, 14:18
HoDA can't be combined with Asyendi's Bane (HoDA says all magical bow effects are ignored when you use it), and re-rolling the single S3 shot with his BS6 doesn't seem too strong to me.

When becoming a BSB, the character loses their bow. You have to buy Asyendi's Bane if you want to be able to fire the Hail of Doom Arrow. However, you don't get to reroll the dice to hit.

It may seem like a wasted 10 points, but the extra sure-to-hit shot can come in handy. I like using him to pick off fanatics.

Poseidal
17-07-2009, 14:40
When becoming a BSB, the character loses their bow. You have to buy Asyendi's Bane if you want to be able to fire the Hail of Doom Arrow. However, you don't get to reroll the dice to hit.

It may seem like a wasted 10 points, but the extra sure-to-hit shot can come in handy. I like using him to pick off fanatics.

Ah, good point. I forgot about that.

I do like the Alter Noble though, he's served me well in most instances.

willowdark
17-07-2009, 14:57
I have reservations about the HoD BSB. Sure, you get to have both the Arrow and Re-roll Break Tests, but at what cost. Your BSB will be completely vulnerable to anything that attacks him. You're going into battle naked.

If you can find the points for the Eagle, it will help. The mobility will be an asset to avoid being charged. But a lot of armies have flyers, and most can bring multiples. Fell bats, terradons, Harpies, Furies and Warhawk Riders will all match your speed and, even if they don't catch you, could chase you away from the action.

I'd stick with the Alter. He might be just as vulnerable in a lot of ways, but he won't give up 200 VPs if you loose him. And with 5 st6 attacks, he can just as likely chase of the enemy threats.

In my original suggestion I included points for an Eagle, but you didn't mention that in your reply. Are you planning on taking one?

If not, you could loose the Glade Riders and use the extra points for the BSB w/ SoM and the Stone. That way you'll still have the HoDA, the high strength Alter and re-roll break tests. It would be a shame to loose the Riders, but if you want the BSB that badly, then they are the only unit that I think is expendable.

Wolf 11x
17-07-2009, 15:20
If I had the points, I would take a TMA, Alter, Spellsinger, and BSB.

However, that is over 800 points in characters and I feel that is too much for a 2000 point Wood Elf list. You're actually talking about 850 points with an Eagle. I feel that Wood Elves can't really excel if you spend a lot of points in characters.

On the other hand, I take a Carnosaur & Engine of the Gods with my Lizardmen and they're about 800 points. However, the wizard serves a dual purpose.

At any rate, the worst you can do is try it and maybe get owned.

Poseidal
17-07-2009, 15:48
Well, with the Treeman Ancient, I'll be taking a Treeman anyway so I figured that a Ld9 General for 30 points isn't so bad. The Spites do cost a bit though, but they do help.

willowdark
17-07-2009, 16:11
That's exactly my opinion of TMAs. Since I'd take a TM anyway, and I wouldn't take more than 1, a TMA is really only about a 100 point investment at most.

And my regular Wood Elf list is fully kitted out with Characters. Wardancer Highborn, 2 Alters and a Scroll Caddy, that's over 700 pts, and I don't think twice about it. Every one of them brings something to the army that a unit couldn't.

I think the TMA, Caddy, Alter and BSB would be a good character build for this army. You still maintain a solid core and a powerful special selection.

LiMunPai
18-07-2009, 01:37
This is remarkably similar to the list I run at 2000.

Instead of a second treeman, however, I run a great eagle, a BSB, and another group of Wild Riders with a banner instead. To get the points, I take the command off of the War Dancers and remove a Wild Rider. The 6th rider isn't much of a loss when you use your alter as the 6th man anyway and having 2 5 man squads obsures which one has the warbanner.

I also take Calaingor's Staff on the Spellsinger instead of a dispel scroll.

Griffery
18-07-2009, 07:36
I don't own a WE book but my friend always plays them. There is one magic item, I am not quite sure what the name is, but if lets you re-roll failed dispel dice. That in my oppinion with 2 spellweavers is enough magic defense you will ever need, and the 2 scrolls never hurt. Over all it looks pretty solid. 2 Treemen is nasty, but watch out for flaming atks.

Poseidal
18-07-2009, 12:15
The re-roll dispel is only available on a Lord type wizard, so that's not really an option in this list unfortunately.

willowdark
18-07-2009, 15:58
If you've taken any advice from this thread you should post your revised list. That way we can give more constructive criticism from where you stand now.

I'm not sure what your list actually looks like now.

Poseidal
19-07-2009, 08:00
If you've taken any advice from this thread you should post your revised list. That way we can give more constructive criticism from where you stand now.

I'm not sure what your list actually looks like now.

I haven't made any amendments yet!

The problem is I haven't made my Tree Kin so can't use those, but those would be easiest to insert. I feel I might have to sacrifice too much for a BSB but one will probably appear in a different list.

willowdark
19-07-2009, 13:19
Reaper makes a really great Earth Elemental model which would be pretty cool for Treekin. They only make the one but the unit as a whole should make a good contrast to the rest of your army, even if they all look the same.

Witchblade
19-07-2009, 20:41
No amendments are required IMO. It's good.

4 treekin are hardly comparable to a treeman. They are much less mobile, which hurts a lot in a WE army. They also take up a lot of space, making it harder to engage the enemy with multiple units, which is what you want to do with WE. It also means they are much harder to treesurf across the board, which is the idea of this list, I reckon (BTW, you could replace one scroll with the calaingor stave to aid this tactic). Also, they are less likely to not break against heavy cavalry charges and static CR units. Of course, you're also giving up a bound spell and strangle roots.

In return, you get a unit that's often more killy and is less vulnerable to cannons and stone throwers. It just doesn't fit that well into this list.

On the topic of war machines, you could replace your fast cav with warhawk riders. Also, you could replace your archers with more fast cav to make your list even more mobile and combat orientated.

willowdark
20-07-2009, 12:11
Treekin aren't a good substitute for 1 Treeman, but most certainly are for the second.

Of course, its all about taste. In my experience, if you don't have a BSB, a TMan is just as likely to break as anything else in the list. Ld8 is far from reliable, even when Stubborn. So although the Ancient has Ld9, a second TMan at Ld8 without a BSB is much less effective than 4 Treekin. I've been using the Treekin in every list for 2 years, and I've never had trouble getting them into the combat I want them in. The Wide frontage means you need to be careful in deployment. Give them a lane and commit to it, to minimize wheeling.

Treekin in the center of the field make it almost impossible for enemy units to turn to face your flank threats, and taking up the frontage of one enemy face is a non-issue since your support should be hitting the flank or rear, or front if your enemy has exposed his flank to the Treekin.

Treekin to the front and Dryads on the flank have broken every infantry unit I've thrown them at, even without breaking ranks.

So while I agree that a single Treeman is better than 4 Treekin, taking both will give you a better return on your investment than taking 2 TMen. They compliment each other nicely.

Wolf 11x
20-07-2009, 14:12
I've had nothing but success with two Treemen and a BSB. A Treeman can be left alone to do his thing, and can hold up a unit for ridiculously long amounts of time. Also, a Treeman is a lot more manueverable, has Strangleroot, is stubborn, and causes Terror.

On the other hand, Treekin always seem to lose frontal combats for me. I don't feel they can be left alone. Once you add support, you're already paying more than a Treeman for the unit.

It all ends up about the same points cost. However, I know which I prefer. :P