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xerxeshavelock
16-07-2009, 10:57
So now the new Leman Russ varients are mainstream does anyone else think the Tau tanks could benefit from the same love?

I'm talking more about the Ionhead really, as a high-tech army theydon't stand up to the Executioner. Yes, I know all the stuff about Plasma being lost tech and the Imperium at the height of its power etc, but putting that aside the place of the Tau should be in the same ballpark as the current Imperium. I would like to see an improved Ion Cannon, and would be prepared to see the points go up to a fair level. Maybe a new mechanic for Ion technology, something that fills a hole in the Tau arsenal (eg ignores Inv for example). This would expand the background, otherwise I don't feel it's really MBT worthy (the Pred Autocannon is a subject for another thread).

So what direction should they take the Tau in? Here are a few ideas:

More tanks per slot same as Gd, balanced by suggesting they are cheaper, disposeable tech?

Simply better to emphasize the current advantage of a modern approach?

Go with the stealth at long range, 4+ cover is powerful enough (should this be developed as a racial attribute)?

Something else?

What do you think?

SylverClaw
16-07-2009, 11:20
I'm sorry but that sounded a bit like "my favourites aren't as good as <insert new codex name> wah wah wah" which may or may not have been your intention. But I really don't see what the IG codex has got to do with this topic.

I think everyone knows that the Tau need some love. Not as much as a few other factions need love, but yes they need it.

Does arguable the best tank, broadly, in the game need love? No. It absolutely does not. There is nothing wrong with it. It's absolutely fine.

However, in general, I do think Tau tanks should get a rule like the lumbering one from the IG codex. That just makes fluff sense and, honestly, it's not actually that powerful anyway. And I think that their "racial power" should be the ability for vehicles to split fire against different units.

If you want to talk generally about Tau... more troop choices needed, no need to take firewarriors as troop choices, more hq choices, more mercenaries choices (human squad would be lovely), more useful drone squads...

And if I go slightly back on topic I'd say that the Tau should have a platoon layout similiar to the IG. Min two FW squads, maybe lead by a single suit, then you buy attachment squads (kroot, humans, pathfinders, etc)... which would better reflect the fluff of the way they fight I feel. You could even have attachment characters that grant similiar functions to Al'rahim (which is very very Tau).

But the Hammerhead? It's pretty good as it is.

TheBloodyFistOfKhaine
16-07-2009, 11:23
Im not sure.
I think it would be a good idea because it would fit in with some of the Tau fluff.
On the otherhand I do feel some people might hink it cheesy to be facing something like nine hammerheads on the battlefield.
However if the points are fair then yeah Id see no problem with it.

Kurisu313
16-07-2009, 11:57
I don't think the tau should have squadroned tanks like the guard, but I do think some new varieties would make sense, especially as the tau are constantly upgrading their tech.

They already have the ultimate tank buster (with some anti-infantry) and a anti-MEQ, light tank killer, so I'd suggest a nasty infantry killer tank that ignores cover saves or some such.

Radium
16-07-2009, 12:29
Tau will get some love with their new codex.

I think everyone wants new toys on the same level as the new guard. I'd like to see better starcannons again (eldar are supposed to be the masters of plasma tech...) and nightwings (valkyrie equivalent) and a lot more! But that won't happen for a long time...

Zanzibarthefirst
16-07-2009, 13:04
I woudl like to see some of the FW cariants of hammerhead creep into the book, maybe the melta cannon or something like that

SPYDER68
16-07-2009, 14:03
Leave the heavies alone.. Give fire warriors a option to increase their BS per model.. and special weapons in the squads...

They could be in the form of on a drone and one controls it or anything..

Hypaspist
16-07-2009, 14:14
Leave the heavies alone.. Give fire warriors a option to increase their BS per model.. and special weapons in the squads...

They could be in the form of on a drone and one controls it or anything..

*shudder* I'd want a limit on that one Spyder, maybe like 'Ard boyz where only one mob can get the upgrade, a whole army of markerlighted BS4 Str5 troop ballistics would be.... nasty...


And I think that their "racial power" should be the ability for vehicles to split fire against different units.

Love it!

SPYDER68
16-07-2009, 14:18
*shudder* I'd want a limit on that one Spyder, maybe like 'Ard boyz where only one mob can get the upgrade, a whole army of markerlighted BS4 Str5 troop ballistics would be.... nasty...



Love it!

At bs 3.. Fire warriors just seem to not do even close to as good as they seem..

With the BS increase.. it would cost more points per unit, which will lack on rest of the army..

Or at least.. make marker lights BS 4 for just themselves so they can actually hit..

Rail rifles.. melta something.. would be wonderful if base fire warrior squads could have 1 per 6 fire warriors or 1 per squad.

To me.. every unit in the tau army is fine.. except fire warriors that just feel lacking every game.

DarkMatter2
16-07-2009, 14:34
God forbid the IG have some unique characteristics and advantages. Can't let that happen.

SPYDER68
16-07-2009, 14:35
God forbid the IG have some unique characteristics and advantages. Can't let that happen.

Tau wont get heavy vehicle squads.. 9x Hammerheads... Ow.

DarkMatter2
16-07-2009, 14:38
The whole notion of battle tank squads in the IG is meant to represent the boundless industrial might of the Imperium - the Tau might have nice tanks, but they can't make truly endless waves of them like the Imperium can.

Poseidal
16-07-2009, 14:57
The Eldar have more claim to that than Tau; in Epic, like the Guard, they run tanks in formations.

Also, variations already exist: Falcon (Hybrid transport), Prism (All round tank), Night Spinner (Anti-horde infantry specialist), Firestorm (multishot anti-air/light vehicles/infantry). All that's missing is a short range 'power' tank, which can easily be inserted with a scaled down Cobra (D-Cannon variant Falcon size tank).

Apart from the last one, all of those already exist too (both Epic and Forge World).

Lastly, fluffwise the Tau aren't actually more advanced than the Imperium but the Eldar are meant to be so at that angle their weapons should be improved from that reasoning.

Creeping Dementia
16-07-2009, 15:25
I can almost guarantee that Tau will get new main and secondary weapon varients, (I don't actually 'know', thats why it's 'almost') it's too easy an upgrade for GW to just overlook, especially when FW already has a bunch of different Hammerhead turrets out. It's just too obvious. I wouldn't be suprised at all if Crisis and Piranha get a bunch of new options too. That being said, I'd probably stick with the Railgun anyway.

I'm actually more worried that that is all we'll get. We need another troop choice, preferably one that doesn't absolutely require a transport to stay alive more than a turn or two. And Tetras are high on nearly every Tau players wishlist (Jetbike with markerlight and TL pulse rifle). I'd expect drones to have a slightly bigger role as well. Basically, I'd look at Forgeworld as a guideline on likely additions to the next Tau codex.

On a Meta level for Tau, we don't need help in the Heavy weapon department (the Ion cannon could use a buff but thats it). I'd look for help in the troops section and in faster smaller (not tanks) units.

Hammerhead Squadrons? Wishfull thinking, and not much more than that. Save it for Apoc.

DarkMatter2
16-07-2009, 15:31
It would be cooler, IMHO, if the Tau were more varied - i.e. that they incorporated more alien vassals into their army lists. I wish the Tau would become more like a Federation of aliens than just an army with a few token auxillary units.

The Orange
16-07-2009, 15:35
Honistly I like the IonCannon as is. It's a high rate if fire weapons, maybe a little on the weaker side against tanks, but more then perfect against most infantry with 3+save or less, and it's god awful cheap for what it does. Making it stronger while it has such a high rate of fire (3 shots and BS4) would make it ridiculously expensive. A better idea would be just to make a different weapon variant closer to you want and the question I have is "have you taken a look at all weapon variants FW has put out already?" maybe they've already made what your looking for and all we need is GW to incorporate it in the next round of codices.

Creeping Dementia
16-07-2009, 15:42
It would be cooler, IMHO, if the Tau were more varied - i.e. that they incorporated more alien vassals into their army lists. I wish the Tau would become more like a Federation of aliens than just an army with a few token auxillary units.

Tau players are actually pretty split on this concept. I personally hate the Tau auxillary fluff and models (same with most Tau players in my area), others love them. If they want to add more of them thats fine, so long as I don't have to use them to build a competitive army.


*Edit* Hate is too strong a word, I just dislike them.


The problem with the Ion cannon is it just doesn't have a niche. For light vehicles, missile pods are much much cheaper and can be twin linked and therefore more efficient. Against MeQ the rate of fire isn't good enough (you'll kill one in cover per turn), and once again, Sniper drone teams and Crisis suits are more efficient at Marine killing. And on average, the Railgun submunition will kill more MeQ than the Ion anyway.

ZenPaladin
16-07-2009, 15:54
I'd agree that I would like to see the tank variants move into the main codex.

As for the Firewarrior teams I'm pretty happy with them. Yeah they are fragile-ish and not to great a shot. I'm fine with that as they are just normal soldiers! I don't want them to be to expensive anyway. The ability to intigrate heavy and special weapons would be nice though. We already have pretty good choices I'd say. Markerlight, Carbine and drones.

Maybe intigrate some rail-rifles into the squad? Alow the purchase of some of the heavy gun drones?

ikit_claw
16-07-2009, 17:11
As fluff dictates right now, the Tau way of war doesn't recognize weapons specialists being integrated into Fire Warrior squads, and I personally like it that way. Each rifle's practically powerful enough to be a low-grade special weapon in its own right.

I don't think our Heavy Support section needs much help. Give the Ion Cannon some kind of boost so it's worth taking, and maybe add some kind of anti-infantry option other than the Railgun submunition. Otherwise, the only change I'd put forward is that I'd like to see the cost of Sniper Drones dropped a bit, to make them a more viable choice instead of tanks.

No, I think the real problem is in our Fast Attack section. Tetra squadrons are hopefully out there, but I think in addition Piranhas need some more options of armament. Also, the range of the Vespid Neutron Blaster needs to be extended, or else the weapons need to be made Assault 2. Those are really cool models and it's woeful that they're basically worthless right now. Maybe they could introduce those Remora Stealth Fighter Drones?

I wouldn't mind us having a third troop choice, though I'd want it to be something Tau. I run a purist Tau army, as I dislike the Kroot and find Vespid pretty useless. I'd also like to see the introduction of the Stealth Drone, which would project a field over the unit it was with (though the more models it protects, the weaker the effect would be).

All just a wish list, though, and I do agree other armies need the help first (I'm looking at you, Necrons and Inquisition).

O'Henry
16-07-2009, 17:23
Actually, I wouldn't like to see Tau becoming similar to the IG.

-First of all they need a new rule to join the 5th Edition (something like the Orders in the IG codex, the Deamon rule in the CD codex and the they shall know no fear rule in the SM codex)
My suggestion is to give emphasis on the way they work as a team and make an 'our bond is strong' rule. Something that will give benefits to a squad according to the members it has.

-Secondly, they need more option. Not human auxiliaries and new alien races just more kroot and Vespid options (maybe Knarloc Riders or krootoxes taken as one squad without normal kroot)

-But giving them more tanks will make them IG ecuivalents. Just make the existing a bit cheaper or stronger while rasing the cost of the Disruption pod or removing it completely.

My wish is that GW gives our commander a second suit option(XV22 seems to be working well so why isn't it more more common:D) and makes ethereals more like spiritual leaders.

Creeping Dementia
16-07-2009, 17:23
As fluff dictates right now, the Tau way of war doesn't recognize weapons specialists being integrated into Fire Warrior squads, and I personally like it that way. Each rifle's practically powerful enough to be a low-grade special weapon in its own right.

I don't think our Heavy Support section needs much help. Give the Ion Cannon some kind of boost so it's worth taking, and maybe add some kind of anti-infantry option other than the Railgun submunition. Otherwise, the only change I'd put forward is that I'd like to see the cost of Sniper Drones dropped a bit, to make them a more viable choice instead of tanks.

No, I think the real problem is in our Fast Attack section. Tetra squadrons are hopefully out there, but I think in addition Piranhas need some more options of armament. Also, the range of the Vespid Neutron Blaster needs to be extended, or else the weapons need to be made Assault 2. Those are really cool models and it's woeful that they're basically worthless right now. Maybe they could introduce those Remora Stealth Fighter Drones?

I wouldn't mind us having a third troop choice, though I'd want it to be something Tau. I run a purist Tau army, as I dislike the Kroot and find Vespid pretty useless. I'd also like to see the introduction of the Stealth Drone, which would project a field over the unit it was with (though the more models it protects, the weaker the effect would be).

All just a wish list, though, and I do agree other armies need the help first (I'm looking at you, Necrons and Inquisition).

Agreed on everything. I like your drone idea. Having drones that would upgrade an entire squad would be a cool idea and would fit nicely, stealth drones to make squads harder to see (like grey knights), command drones to upgrade leadership, scout drones to give it's LOS to tanks/suits (not sure how that one would work, maybe a bad idea), Searchlight drones, etc.

O'Henry
16-07-2009, 17:29
All just a wish list, though, and I do agree other armies need the help first (I'm looking at you, Necrons and Inquisition).

They certainly do but I want to see xenos codeces (necrons, dark eldars, nids and maybe Tau) before inquisition as 5th Edition is also for them not only for humans.

forbin
16-07-2009, 17:41
They certainly do but I want to see xenos codeces (necrons, dark eldars, nids and maybe Tau) before inquisition as 5th Edition is also for them not only for humans.

so would I but I think the 6th edition will be out before DE or Inq get their much needed codeces, :(

still on a Tau note a set fo flamer drones would be nice , a bit of anti infantry for the FW. missile pod varients as well, made some myself but you need opponents perms to use...... ( bit difficult these days as I dropped playing shortly after 5th came out - but thats my problem !)

coyote1066
16-07-2009, 17:53
The only FW tank variant that is worth looking at is the Fusion Cannon, otherwise you're essentially turning the HH into a crisis suit that can't JSJ but has more armor....just my opinion (I have them all :evilgrin:).

Tau need LEADERS that can actually make other entries count as troop choices and/or allow the whole army to enter from reserves on turn 1 if desired. GW let the genie out of the bottle when they started making game altering special characters. Tau have never had great SC but now...gah!

Creeping Dementia
16-07-2009, 17:59
so would I but I think the 6th edition will be out before DE or Inq get their much needed codeces, :(


Oh come on, next year will probably be almost entirely xenos codexes, with the exception of maybe the Inquisition (though I think they're more likely 2011, along with Tau).


I agree that we do need some SCs that, you know, don't suck. I'd guess we'll get 7ish special characters, along with one that brings something thats just a little bit overpowered, just like most the other new armies are getting.

Captain Micha
16-07-2009, 18:01
First, all Tau should automatically have Bonding Knives. When you read the fluff it's pretty clear that all the Tau Firecaste goes through this ritual.

At the very least.. .suits should have it.

BS4 Firewarriors really isn't that powerful. (I've used the Ethereal bodyguards before), as it is FW are a little overpriced by say 2 points... Coincidentally enough the squad of FW that has BS4 costs +2 pts per model over the standard.

This would solve any need of special weapons in the squad, and solve the issue of Markerlights not being usable on FW squads because you just don't get enough MLs in a squad.

The Devilfish, for it's point cost should be True Fast and not... emulated fast (this is mainly due to the fact that the perk that Fast gives you is about it's sheer speed now, and the unit was originally designed for SMF in it's pt costs) and gundrones are not now, and never have been worth 20 points on a vehicle. The fish at 80 should come with Smart missiles, not free Kps.. I mean Gundrones.

The Gundrone needs some serious work as well being pretty much worthless, even taken in mass.

Tau shouldn't get IG stuff, tau just need a tweak to bring them up to snuff, especially in the happy appy pro assault rule set of 5e. Upgrade what the Tau have already, and rework them.

Hammer squads? No.. please god no. Tau and Imperium work on two very different mindsets... and I like the idea of Tau having a more Gunship mobility based warfare style than an armored slow wave.

Suits are about right, well the Crisis suits are.. but I'd love to see some variety in Suit models that we don't have presently (like the ones described in the Taros Campaign)

I like the Hammerheads just fine almost, but I think some of the Taros Options would be spiffy.

No More Sky Ray too.... talk about a Trap Option.

Move Sniper Drone teams to Troops too I think.

I do think though that Tau should have more Drones and Auxiliaries to be represented though. The Burst Cannon Drones would be kind of neat (providing they ditch this BS2 nonsense especially since they can't get marker lights.... good job ***** that wrote the codex), and I believe there were Smart Missile carrying drones in a FW book?

As far as Aux go, how about some more Kroot, (and make the Kroot actually good... not what they are) and upgrade the Vespid, some human helpers wouldn't hurt either.

commandergabriel
16-07-2009, 18:03
I love my FW, my crisis and my stealth, pirhana... and those hammerheads... Not into the kroot, ethereals, vespid or sniper drones that much...

I agree that the FW would need something; they have great weapons but not nearly as good a BS to match the great range. My FW, 80% of the time, get 1 or 2 good rounds of shooting before they are over run; and I don't like that.

If the Tau are going to have great weaponry then let them have the ability to use it before they get their butts kicked... That's the only reason that I don't play Eldar; Shurikens with that range? Come on, seriously, you have to be willing to sacrifice your guardians in order to get 1 round of shooting.

Tau should be the masters of great technology, but be horrible at combat... I'd give my right arm to be able to wipe the floor with my opponent in my shooting phases. It would make the **** kicking that I'd get in the subsequent combat phases easier to swallow.

*EDIT* Yeah! 100 Posts!

ikit_claw
16-07-2009, 18:06
Yeah, we definitely need better special characters. O'Shovah is the only one that's halfway decent in my book, and even then he forces you to radically change your playstyle in a fashion that may actually be to your detriment in the face of so many other armies.

Just some ideas for special characters:

-An XV22 pilot who doesn't need to get within 8" of the enemy to be of any offensive use.
-Some Kroot über-shaper like Ankhor Prok. Or maybe just Ankhor Prok.
-An Ethereal character that would actually be worth their points. That actually extends to Ethereals in general, too, but in all my years of gaming I've never seen Aun'Shi or Aun'Va on the table.
-Some kind of ace battlesuit pilot, not necessarily a commander.

*edit* Response to Captain Micha:


First, all Tau should automatically have Bonding Knives. When you read the fluff it's pretty clear that all the Tau Firecaste goes through this ritual.

At the very least.. .suits should have it.

I think giving it to battlesuits is an option to explore, but I think Fire Warrior teams having it standard is a bit much.


BS4 Firewarriors really isn't that powerful. (I've used the Ethereal bodyguards before), as it is FW are a little overpriced by say 2 points... Coincidentally enough the squad of FW that has BS4 costs +2 pts per model over the standard.

I think BS3 is just fine for Fire Warriors. That's what Markerlights are for.


This would solve any need of special weapons in the squad, and solve the issue of Markerlights not being usable on FW squads because you just don't get enough MLs in a squad.

I think the problem with Markerlights in a squad is that they require your Fire Warriors to stand still, which no squad should do until all other options are exhausted.


The Devilfish, for it's point cost should be True Fast and not... emulated fast (this is mainly due to the fact that the perk that Fast gives you is about it's sheer speed now, and the unit was originally designed for SMF in it's pt costs) and gundrones are not now, and never have been worth 20 points on a vehicle. The fish at 80 should come with Smart missiles, not free Kps.. I mean Gundrones.

Gotta disagree. The Fish is easily one of the best transports in the game, and one of the things in the Tau army I definitely don't think needs any fixing at all.


No More Sky Ray too.... talk about a Trap Option.

And again, I disagree. I run two Railheads and a Sky Ray, and it works great.


Move Sniper Drone teams to Troops too I think.

They don't really fulfill the function of troops on the battlefield, though. They're meant as a support structure, not the mainstay of the army.

Captain Micha
16-07-2009, 18:19
But they aren't HS either. And they aren't good enough for Elites.

They are bottom tier units, so put them in the tier they belong in.

I used to think the Fish was good, till I played as Eldar for a weekend and realized just how jipped we really are.

That's to say nothing of the Valkyrie, and even the humble Chimera. Both of which easily surpass the Fish.

Being 'better' than a Rhino isn't really saying much. Considering how dirt cheap the Rhino is pt cost wise. Back when the Rhino cost more than it does presently the Fish was a better transport, (for several reasons).

At the very least Tau Vehicles should have Gunship as a special rule. Gunship: A vehicle with this rule can move 12" and fire both of it's main weapons.

The other thing they need to address immediately is the Piranha.. right now it sucks something fierce. Bring it's pt cost more in line with the Vyper (then again those damn gundrones are adding 20 pts of bogus to the thing's cost)

FW at BS4, should be a standard in the army (after all right now if you hit with two MLs that squad could be BS5 doing the shooting anyway) who's primary function is to do nothing but shoot. Especially one that lacks the numbers of Guard. It just makes sense. Tau are mobile shootists. This way you could keep the Tau being nancy girls in combat. Because as it is they would need a serious boost in CC to put them on par with every other army, and I like my Tau being as effective as 5 year old school girls in CC.

Epicenter
16-07-2009, 21:26
My suspicion is that if they get someone skilled to rewrite the Tau Codex:

* A lot of things, in basic army selections such as Fire Warriors and Devilfish will be coming down in cost.

* Kroot will probably drop in points cost to like 5 or 6 and get better rules - I'm guessing there'll be huge complaints by Ork and IG players about this, but that's GW for you.

* The Markerlight will probably be made easier to use (I'm guessing perhaps they will become Assault instead of Heavy or there will be an Assault version) but less fiddly. This will be required as the new Tau army will probably turn on using Markerlights for everything. They'll probably remain "Defensive" weapons for vehicles, but I suspect at least one vehicle (perhaps Pirhana) will be able to use Markerlights no matter what speed they fly at. My guesses: Some sort of "free" inherent power for getting hit by the Markerlight, like the unit having to move as if being in Difficult Terrain next turn. Plus perhaps some other power chosen by the Tau player: negate cover save for the rest of the Tau shooting phase, all weapons firing at the marked target are considered twin-linked, etc. I think there'll probably be a Markerlight drone with wide availability.

* Vespid will probably get crazy new rules. It's up in the air if these rules will actually be good or not.

* I see the Tau getting more Blasts instead of (flamer) Templates. Probably more blasts which ignore cover. If they have a bunch of blasts, look for things like "the weapon attacks vehicles at full strength regardless of if the middle hole is over the vehicle's hull or not" and "ignores cover saves." Tau always seem to be designed to trump IG, so this will neatly nerf IG camo netting (not that I know many IG players who get camo netting).

* I'm betting Seeker Missiles will get some benefit that will make them overpowered. For instance, rolling 2d6 and choose the highest for penetration. Since the Tau get "modern" weapons concepts perhaps Seeker Missiles will attack from "overhead" and strike the side armor of all vehicles.

* Burst Cannon will probably be made more attractive - like 24" (or even 36") range or Heavy 4 (quite possibly 5).

* I've had this creeping feeling the racial Tau units will have a big thing about negating cover saves - I think that's going to be one of their huge schticks - it's easier to be an army without "good" CC if your enemies can't creep up to you using cover.

* I'm thinking Tau suits will get some sort of defense against CC. Perhaps not as good as flechette dischargers (or maybe flechette dischargers) plus some rule that says they're never locked in CC.

* Fire Warriors will probably get a viable Markerlight option - like a drone that can mark a targe separately from the rest of the squad. This Markerlight option may be shorter-ranged or something, but I think it will probably be Assault instead of Heavy. Most FW squads will use this to improve themselves, but there'll always be the option to "take a hit for the team" and use it to help some other squad.

xerxeshavelock
16-07-2009, 22:51
Anyway, about the Tau tanks...

I looked at the rules for the LR Executioner, looked at the rules for the Ion Cannon, and thought "there's something not quite right here". What is the role of the Ionhead? It kills marines in the open at long range quite well, but if you scale up a plasma as they did from the Battlesuits, and apply the same results to a MBT you should get a Heavy3, blast S6 ap3 weapon. That would seem logical for a MBT weapon, and would of course have to be costed appropriately. This is forgetting that the reason battlesuit plasma is S6 is because of cooling, which on a tank shouldn't be a problem. Now that would be a plasma weapon, which leaves - why Ion Cannon? What advantage to the Tau has an Ion Cannon over a Plasma? It could be a background reason, like the Ion Cannon only needs charging once in a gazillion years, but that's a bit dull frankly. I would like to see all the MBT weapon choices be broadly similar power levels, as they have done with the Guard.

squeekenator
17-07-2009, 00:01
Fire Warriors don't deserve BS4 or weapon upgrades from a fluff perspective, and giving it to them would make the race worse as a whole. The whole point of Tau is that they need combined arms, why would you make their standard unit capable of taking down anything without help? Tau need battlesuits and rail guns to take down armoured targets and markerlights to increase their firepower enough for them to kill infantry. Give them all-purpose Troops who can kill anything just makes them Space Marines with less armour.

Dyrnwyn
17-07-2009, 01:21
Personally, I think the Tau need two major changes. I don't think we'll be getting any of them. I think that Tau troops at BS4 would be unbalanced, or the attendant points increase would render them unplayable. But BS3 is obviously not enough. I've maintained since the first codex that Tau should have the old IG Sharpshooters rule. It's effectively BS 3.5 and makes perfect sense for a race that focuses on nothing but ranged combat. Perhaps only for troops though; I think that at higher BS levels it effectively becomes free Twin-linking.

On top of that, I feel Markerlights should return to being a single automatic effect. The token system is interesting and means that Markerlights are now typically used on Fire Warriors and Stealth suits. I think it's also a colossal failure. Typically, I only see two of the five possible effects used; BS boosting and cover denying. The Proliferation of fearless armies and the popularity of rifles over carbines means the pinnng effect is largely useless. The elimination of Target Priority means that effect is ignored in 5th ed. And Night-fighting has been reduced to a single turn in a scenario where most markerlights will not be on the table for. In addition to this limited use of Merkerlights, the token system also ensures you need about a dozen Markerlights where previously 1 or 2 would have sufficed. I can't count the number of times I've faced down a green tide hiding under a KFF and wished for the old Markerlight rules so I could shove a submunition into them on a 2+ with no cover save possible. I'd need 4 Markerlight hits to achieve this under the new system, and thus need a full unit of 8 Pathfinders to statistically provide me with the 4 necessary hits. While many felt that the token rules were an improvement, I've always felt they were a step back. Perhaps Markerlights could grant +1 BS and -1 or -2 to cover saves to the firing unit at the same time. Failing that, a return to firing a single weapon at an assumed BS of 5 with no cover possible would be preferable.

TheMav80
17-07-2009, 01:26
I'm hoping the Forge World Remoras make it into a new book. Those things look awesome.

TheMav80
17-07-2009, 01:50
Maybe some way to help Fire Warriors, instead of a BS change (though I do like the Sharpshooter idea), is some sort of "Advance and Fire" type thing.

I'm not sure how to do it, but I've always liked the image of a well ordered line of Fire Warriors "bounding" up the field, firing as they go.

I am willing to bet Pulse Carbines get super awesome i the next book. Only because no one takes them now.

Ventus
17-07-2009, 03:46
I'd like to see burst cannon on vehicles be better than burst cannon on suits, like a heavy burst cannon - maybe 5 shots.

Improvements in aux units such as Kroot and Vespid to make them more useful and the addition of human aux units.

The BS of firewarriors should be increased by 1. THe markerlight in a unit of FW should be able to fire before the rest of the unit and used by that unit. It is ridiculous to have to use another units markerlight when your leader has one and should be highlighting targets for his own unit.

O'Henry
17-07-2009, 10:17
BS4 FW? No pleaze. I like my Tau as they are now, not at all skilled but with technology that kicks ....:angel:. Making markerlights better could solve the BS problem.

My problem is with the crisis suits. They are supposed to be Veterans of war but how is this represented in their profile. Something like a LD boost would be welcome or maybe a WS of 3 or an I of 3. Not something exaggerated just a useless addition with meaning

Mojaco
17-07-2009, 11:21
Whatever happens, they should be able to outshoot a marine. Currently, 2 marines outshoot 3 firewarriors, despite being the same cost.

A marines needs a 3+ to hit, a 3+ to wound and the firewarrior needs to fail a 4+ to get a wound through. So, 2 marines would cause 0.44 wounds.
A firewarrior needs a 4+ to hit, a 3+ to wound and the marine needs to fail a 3+ armour save. So, 3 firewarriors would cause 0.32 wounds.

That's pretty sad considering the Tau is supposed to be the shooty one. Now keep in mind the marine is better in a fight, is less likely to run away, can get (free) special weapons and can even split his squad if beneficial to the mission.

Poseidal
17-07-2009, 11:52
A better way is to reduce the cost of a Firewarrior than increase BS. Down to 8 points or something, then the ratio becomes 2:1 (Marines cost 16 points now).

O'Henry
17-07-2009, 11:55
It's not that they outshoot them. The armour save makes the difference.
Tau are slightly better than a marine in shooting

Against an IG
Tau: 4+ to hit and 2+ to wound (without any markerlights)
Marines: 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound

Against Marines
Tau: 4+ to hit 3+ to wound
Marines: 3+ to hit 4+ to wound

They are equal as you can see so 3 Tau overshoot 2 Marines (if you don't take the saves into account). Not to mention that Marines are more than 15 points each with the new codex

O'Henry
17-07-2009, 11:58
A better way is to reduce the cost of a Firewarrior than increase BS. Down to 8 points or something, then the ratio becomes 2:1 (Marines cost 16 points now).

Thats much better and I think it's going to happen if FW aren't improved

Chaos Undecided
17-07-2009, 12:15
Probably comes from watching the old Star Wars films a bit too often but I could imagine the Ion Cannon getting a rule along the lines of any roll of 6 on the to hit dice inflicts an automatic crew shaken result on the target vehicle in addition to any other damage that results from the penetration roll to represent the discharge shorting out systems on the target vehicle, not overly powerful as many vehicles can ignore it through upgrades but still fairly characterful.
Regarding Stingwings I think that just increasing their range to 18" and possibly boosting their armor to 4+ would make them more usable. I'd personally like to see the Kroot Shaper get new rules to as I think the option to buy a 6+ save is fairly pointless, maybe they should give their warband a D6 roll for a random ability in a similar manner to Possessed get although not to the extreme of them ending up with power weapons.

Mojaco
17-07-2009, 12:50
Marines cost 16 pts, but you get free stuff once you hit 10 guys.
10 marines + veteran sergeant + flamer + missile launcher used to cost 180 pts, now it's 170.

So for sake of argument I just used the old value of 15. Using 16 pts means it's not exactly 3 versus 2, but it's still darn close anyway. And not taking armour saves into account makes as much sense as not taking toughness into account.

A reduction in points is the most likely, as that's what's GW has been doing for more core choices lately (I include marines here). Usually the reduction in points has still been accompanied by an increase in effectiveness, so what will Firewarriors get? It's bound to be something. Free defensive grenades?

Deadnight
17-07-2009, 12:54
im not a big fan of battle tank squadrons. its an imperial thing. i see tau vehicles as being along the lines of helicoptor gunships to be honest.

Some changes are needed though, all throughout the codices.

commanders need to be more than a bs5 version of the regular suit. all they get now is really gimmicky wargear, and i hate the fact i must sacrafice one posible ability for another (do i take a second weapon, or a positional relay system?). like, farseers dont have to choose between witchblades or psychic powers, if you get my meaning. I suppose what im trying to say is that tau commanders should generate some passive and active abilities (based on mont'ka and kauyon?) just by being there, as other commanders do.

etherials need a huge boost. twin-linked morale as a plus, and half my army runs away when a model with t3 and no armour save dies as a minus? yeah.:rolleyes: their positive benefits should be buffed if GW wants to see them on the table, and id like to see etherial 'powers' being made. somewhere along the lines of IG orders/sisters of battle's prayers. if you ask me, their inspirational presence should be capable of making tau do things above and beyond.

regular suits need their base cost reduced, some weapons replaced (flamers to heavy flamers, burst cannons to an ion rifle or something. and no, i dont mean the damned stupid cib)

fire warriors? im a big fan of heavy 2 pulse rifles, and assault 2 carbines. heavy 2 at least gives a sense of a constant withering hail of fire all the way in. and carbines just need a boost anyway... there has been playtesting of this done and it was seen as very favourable all round, and said playtesters described these changes as 'feeling right'. its a better change than bs4 fire warriors as well. tau should not be a bs4 army. they're US marines. they like to apply heavy firepower on a target. h2, and assault 2 is that heavy firepower.

as well, id like to see a better integration of tau technology into the squads. firstly, make drones a more integral part of the list. allow team leaders to buy a drone controller with 2 gun drones for 20pts with an option to upgrade said drones to rail rifle drones, or markerlight drones for +5pts each. (and when you factor in the team leader upgrade, drone controller and extra price, youre paying 20pts each. so dont say its cheap) and as well, i would like to see that drones controlled by a drone controller use his bs. no point otherwise. no one wants a bs2 markerlight.
Now its a drone. it also fits the theme of technology, of integrating drones into everyones roles, and it adds firepower, whilst not being a special weapon. and it can add a lot of new tactics to the tau.

kroot? they're fine, even if fifth has hit them a bit harder than it benefitted them. but id like to see evolutionary adaptations make their way in, and the ability to take kroothorse upgrades (cavalry rules). and an option to swap the kroot rifle for kroot hunting rifles (sniper rifles)

markerlights? bring back the old rules. i liked it when a markerlight did one thing. you fire a gun at bs5 and ignore cover. it beats the finnicky and dodgy system they have in place now...

as for the tanks that the OP was on about?

I'd like to see the rof of the ion cannon buffed up. come on, guard get a heavy 20 gun. Im not complaining now, i love the guard codex, i think its brilliant. but i seriously think a h5 ion cannon is a more worthy competitor to the mighty railgun.

and ill get a lot of flak for saying this, but i would like to see the railgun (or perhaps just the hammerhead version) getting a power buff.

*waits for screams to die down*

reasoning? i remember when tau came out. they had s5 guns when everyone else only had s4. they had an s10 ap1 gun when everyone else was still dealing with lascannons and lance weapons. it was the most powerful long ranged gun in the game. now everyone has a 72' gun and/or an s10 ap1 (possilby blast) weapon. tau, as the army with the 'mighty big frickin guns' are rather sub par and averagely mediocre these days. and i would like the crown of 'biggest meanest most powerfullest gun' returned to the tau. come on, they're squishy, expensive and cant fight their way out of a paper bag. they need something to be proud of.

Poseidal
17-07-2009, 12:59
What are everyone's 72"+ weapons that are S10 AP1 now?

O'Henry
21-07-2009, 15:16
What are everyone's 72"+ weapons that are S10 AP1 now?

hmm let's see..... IG have Medusa Range 48 S10 AP1 heavy 1 Blast *+D6 armor penetration.
Daemons have the tongue weapon on the Soul Grinders (only 25 pts)
Marines have the orbital bombarment which is fired by a human (not even a tank)
and not to mention those that don't have such a long range.

*I'm not saying those are better but I'm just sowing you that those weapons exist

and I totally agree with Deadnight about the changes

Grand Master Raziel
21-07-2009, 17:00
Tau need LEADERS that can actually make other entries count as troop choices and/or allow the whole army to enter from reserves on turn 1 if desired. GW let the genie out of the bottle when they started making game altering special characters. Tau have never had great SC but now...gah!

Oh, great, that's just what we need, more Suit-Spam! :rolleyes:


The BS of firewarriors should be increased by 1. THe markerlight in a unit of FW should be able to fire before the rest of the unit and used by that unit. It is ridiculous to have to use another units markerlight when your leader has one and should be highlighting targets for his own unit.

You can't really just outright increase the BS of Fire Warriors without flying in the face of the established background material, so that idea is a non-starter. You might get somewhere with units being able to use their own markerlights, though.


Whatever happens, they should be able to outshoot a marine. Currently, 2 marines outshoot 3 firewarriors, despite being the same cost.

As pointed out, the flaw in your example is that you should have the Marines and the Fire Warriors shooting at equivalent targets to rate their overall firepower, not at each other. Having them gun at each other isn't just putting firepower to the test, but also staying power, and I don't think anyone is going to argue that Fire Warriors have equivalent or more staying power than Marines. You're also forgetting that Fire Warriors can start engaging from 30" out, and their guns can threaten up to AV11 vehicles and penetrate AV10, which are not unimportant considerations.


commanders need to be more than a bs5 version of the regular suit. all they get now is really gimmicky wargear, and i hate the fact i must sacrafice one posible ability for another (do i take a second weapon, or a positional relay system?).

Isn't that what the Hardwired systems are for? You can take the support systems as Hardwired systems and not have to have them take up your suits hard point spaces.


I suppose what im trying to say is that tau commanders should generate some passive and active abilities (based on mont'ka and kauyon?) just by being there, as other commanders do.

I could see that. Do you have any ideas along those lines?


etherials need a huge boost.

Yeah, they should probably be boosted right off the table. I mean, you don't see the High Lords of Terra running around on the tabletop. Ethereals don't really belong on the battlefield, IMO.


markerlights? bring back the old rules. i liked it when a markerlight did one thing. you fire a gun at bs5 and ignore cover. it beats the finnicky and dodgy system they have in place now...

Well, I personally wouldn't mind overly much, as my main army is Space Marines, but I could see Ork and IG players screaming blue murder when they start getting their armies vaporized by pie plates they can't duck-and-cover against.


and ill get a lot of flak for saying this, but i would like to see the railgun (or perhaps just the hammerhead version) getting a power buff.

The only other race I can think of that has 72" range guns would be the IG, and they've had that all along. Oh, sorry, Chaos...****** Defiler...Chaos should never have gotten a battle cannon platform in the first place, but that's a whole different kettle of fish. The point is still valid, though - Tau never had exclusive claim to the longest ranged gun on the table. That's always been IG, and nothing has ever gotten close to knocking the Basilisk off that particular hill (with its 3'-20' range, it's better suited to Apocalypse than normal 40K). As far as S10 and/or AP1 weapons go, there are not all that many more than there were before, and certainly damn few that combine both with the 72' range. So, your reasoning doesn't fly.


hmm let's see..... IG have Medusa Range 48 S10 AP1 heavy 1 Blast *+D6 armor penetration.
Daemons have the tongue weapon on the Soul Grinders (only 25 pts)
Marines have the orbital bombarment which is fired by a human (not even a tank)
and not to mention those that don't have such a long range.


The Medusa is a Chimera-chassis vehicle, blasts are not optimal for anti-tank as they scatter (less reliable than just rolling to hit), and it still has 36" less range than the rail gun.

I can't find my Codex: Chaos Daemons right now, but if memory serves, the Tongue upgrade is much shorter-ranged than the rail gun.

The SM orbital strike can only be used by the Chapter Master. The SM community almost universally agrees that the Chapter Master is not worth the extra points you pay when the Captain has exactly the same profile, rules, and equipment, lacking only the orbital strike.

So, in short, the rail gun has all three of those beat hands-down.

Captain Micha
21-07-2009, 17:09
GMR Background can be changed. (just ask the Squats), also, balance should come before fluff in terms of priority. It's hard to write balance around fluff after all.

Crisis commanders do need something more than just being a Suit. As it is right now they are a Crisis suit with more Pimp Options. Which pretty much flies in the face of the design paradigm that started with Eldar and Dark Angels. *heck even the Necron Lord is more 5e than the Tau commander..... go figure*

well IIRC markers can't be used on vehicles. So really it's only going to affect the Suits and Infantry.

Tau don't need a firepower increase, but they do need better shooting. I'm an advocate for keeping the Tau more or less where they are options wise (just make what we have worth it for once.... and add in some more Kroot so people can do an Auxiliary list). But if they were to keep their Bs as woefully low as it is.... they will need better Rate Of Fire weapons (which I feel is kinda the Tau shtick when you look at their stuff).

Really? hm, I seem to hit enemy tanks far more often with my Blast and Ordnance weapons than I do my Lascannons and Autocannons.... Not that I'm disagreeing mind you, Rail Guns are sick. Especially on Broadsides... (if anything Broad Side Rail guns need to be toned down)

carldooley
21-07-2009, 17:15
I have a simple solution for GW. Make the Advanced Target Lock(Shadowsun's super special wargear) a standard piece of wargear, so that you can take as many of them as you could want. Then, everyone would take 9 Broadsides, each of whom could take the ATT, and then Tau would become the army to beat as you could pump out 18 railgun shots a turn.
even if they were to be 20 pts a pop, they would be heavily used.

MajorWesJanson
21-07-2009, 18:09
Drop the price on marker drones from 30 points a piece to 20.
Let vehicles take a pair of marker drones for 30 points.
Make normal drones not count for scoring or KPs.
Replace gun drone squadrons with heavy gun drones that can take one suit weapon.
Make BASS the basic broadside, freeing up that slot.
Add tetras and TX-42s to Fast Attack.
Give seeker missiles a blast option.
Ion Cannons to Heavy 5/Rending
Commanders get a fourth hardpoint to use on commander wargear, things like the Pos relay, Leadership node (smaller version of Shadowsuns drone), or modules that change foc, like taking a squad of suits as troops.
Replace decoy launchers with a drone autopilot, which reduces stunned to shaken.
Keep multitracker and target lock options for vehicles, but rename them so they aren't confused with the battlesuit versions.
Bump disruption pods up to 15 points.
Give Pathfinder devilfish a stealth field generator option, which drops capacity to 8 but gives units within 6" a stealth field
Adda tank ace character which ignores shaken, increases bs to 5, and gives the vehicle scout.

innerwolf
21-07-2009, 18:29
The Ion cannon is underpowered any way you look at it. Yes, it's very cheap, but what's the use of a main battle tank with such a weak main weapon?
As a lot of people have stated, Tau have better options for light tank hunting and MEQ killing.
It should be at least heavy 4 ( becoming more or less on par with the Exterminator autocannon), heavy 2 blast, or have a nice side effect( the "electronics disruption" effect mentioned earlier).

AUN'SHI
21-07-2009, 19:47
ok here are my thought :)

The piranha only need to have either infiltrate or scount (more scout)

Leader should be able to get different suites

Something I can see the Tau getting is disruption beacons to help againtdrops or some itmes that slows the enemy down.

Tau fire warriors should be bs 3 but their leader should be able to get better drones for a price of course. Maybe a drone that twin linked markerlight?

Marker light drones should not be 30pts a peice

Stealh suites need and I stress this needs to be able to capture points

Their hammerhead is fine maybe give the ion gun somthing a little better mayeb similar to the rail gun 3/4 shots st 7 or 2 blasts st 5 ap- just putting it out there

Ok now this is only my opnion don't attack me. I think the sky ray is the worst vehicle in the game it has a max of 6 st 8 shots which you need to hit with marker lights first and then still need to hit (granted 2+ but still) and then wound. It has a marker light of its own 2 shots ok meh and then and then either burst cannons 10 pts 2 gun drones 20 pts or smart missle system 20 pts for about 135-145 pts. why would I ever use this over a hammerhead? I know some of you guys like this thing so this is only my opnion.

More special characters that actuall help your army. Yes Aun'va is a peice of crap never use him the worst thing in all of warhammer imo

More armoury would be nice

as stated before different types of gun drone that should never have to take a moral test. I mean a drone dies and is like oh crap 1 of my brother have died in battle ruuuuun!!!!:wtf:

Knarolc would be awesome!!!

vespids are imo to expensive for a units that has 5+ armour save. And they shoot 12" I never use them think they blow imo, but someone else might think different.

Kroot meh 7 pts a peice what more can i say

pathfinders need to be a bit more usable. I think they are ok but in order for them to actually be use they needs to stand in 1 spot maybe give them slow and purposeful shows they are moveing in a good position before shooting a marker light shot.

The Aun give them some sort of defence. To the Tau these guys are the shiz!!! but they basically make them come out naked ready to die... How about giving them some sort of cool armour and honour guard with some sort close combat now there wouild obviously be points for the upgrade.

I think that about cover it :D

swamp_slug
21-07-2009, 20:09
Personally I would like to see the following:

Gun drones should be moved into Troops and allow the option of limited weapon upgrades. Currently they are wasted in that slot and I would have thought the Tau would make more use of them than a Fast slot allows. Gun Drones are easier to replace than Tau fire warriors.
In addition to this I think they should add at least one additional auxiliary unit: human auxiliaries, Nicassar psyker squad, Knarloc rider squad, Demiurg unit etc. to emphasise the diverse nature of the Tau alliances.

I don't think Fire Warriors should get a BS increase but should get a cost reduction, although I think Pathfinders should be BS4 or be BS3 but make markerlights assault weapons that shoot at +1 BS if the unit didn't move in your movement phase.
Markerlights should also be simplified, allow the BS increase and cover save reduction options, the other uses are fairly redundant.

Marker Drones are currently too expensive for what they do, at 20 pts they would be worth it.

Vespid need more survivability, greater weapon range and a 4+ armour save would do this.

Tetras, TX-42 Piranhas and Remoras should be brought into Fast Attack, they are good units that deserve to be made mainstream.

I think Devilfish and Piranhas are too expensive for what they do, bring their costs down, make the gun drones count as a Troops choice once they have disembarked, this ties into my first suggestion and if my basic transport costs me 2 kill points, I want the second one to actually be worth it and be able to capture objectives.

I like the idea of a stealth field generator for the Pathfinder Devilfish, emphasises the vanguard nature of the unit even more.

I've always thought shield drones should provide their invulnerable save to the unit they are guarding, sort of like a shield bubble, although the "Look Out - Aargh!" rule in the IG codex would also be fitting.

Ion Cannon should be made Heavy 4, I think Heavy 5 is too much, but at Heavy 4 I would consider taking it instead of a railgun. I don't think the FW hammerhead variants should be made mainstream as they are either too short range or are just bigger versions of battlesuit weapons.

I've also never really understood why Tau get better at melee as they progress though the ranks, they are a ranged army that avoid melee at all costs (they have Kroot for that). As such I would like to see Shas'Ui (battlesuits only) get BS4, Shas'Vre and Shas'El get BS5 and Shas'O get BS6 instead of the WS and I bonuses, the S and T bonuses can stay as they are the properties of the suit not the user.



Edit: @AUN'SHI, the Seeker Missiles on the Sky Ray aren't the main reason people use it, they are a BS4 mobile markerlight platform that can mark up to 2 units if needed. The missiles give the Sky Ray a bit of offensive capability, but it is primarily a support unit, much like pathfinders.

AUN'SHI
21-07-2009, 20:19
Edit: @AUN'SHI, the Seeker Missiles on the Sky Ray aren't the main reason people use it, they are a BS4 mobile markerlight platform that can mark up to 2 units if needed. The missiles give the Sky Ray a bit of offensive capability, but it is primarily a support unit, much like pathfinders.

I do see your point but 2 marker lights for 145 ish pts Id id much rather put those point to use on a hammerhead or some xv8 suites.

carldooley
21-07-2009, 20:45
I do see your point but 2 marker lights for 145 ish pts Id id much rather put those point to use on a hammerhead or some xv8 suites.

oooh. . .
I'd LOVE to be able to seat marker drones on a hammerhead instead of SMS\burst cannons\gun drones:D.

Creeping Dementia
21-07-2009, 20:46
I do see your point but 2 marker lights for 145 ish pts Id id much rather put those point to use on a hammerhead or some xv8 suites.

Thats the way a lot of people see it, and theres nothing wrong with it, Hammerheads are a great gunship. The Skyray is something you build lists around, often to get an Alpha Strike effect, and it adds some stability to lists that rely on markerlights. It's not a general purpose tank, it's a specific support tank, and can't be expected to perform the same way as a Hammerhead in a head-to-head firefight.

coyote1066
21-07-2009, 21:03
Oh, great, that's just what we need, more Suit-Spam! :rolleyes:


Maybe I didn't write it as I intended. I meant "count as" troops...for capturing objectives...not occupying a troop FOC slot.

Having suits or maybe vespid/pathfinders count as troops with certain leaders would be nice. Beats having your FW riding a bus all game long.

Others:

* Remove BS5 cap for Markerlights? As opposed to making everything BS4.
* Increase range of Markerlights to 48" or 60". I know real life =/= the game but a target designator that can't reach across the board?
* Give all wargear the hard-wired option. Currently TA is not.
* Make CIB and AFP standard issue.

Carlos
21-07-2009, 22:43
1. Fire warriors should get a 3pts p/m upgrade option of personal targetting arrays. The downside is it is an experimental option and only works when the unit remains stationary as it needs a few seconds to lock on. (seems a fair balance to me given the amount of mech players out there)

2. Rail rifle option for commanders and their bodyguard @30pts.

3. All the plasma cannon/fusion cannon options for hammrheads from forgeworld.

4. Vespid get the option to switch between jump infantry and jet packs in the movement phase allowing rapid deployment but hit and run tactics in the fight.

5. The addition of morallian deathsworn (fearless speed bump), tarellian dog soldiers (slow but high T and fnp) as auxilaries. All troops choices. Auxilaries may not outnumber firewarrior squads.

6. 'ghost' suits as a fast attack choice used as a hard-hitting reserve (jump infantry, heavy flamer equivalent weapon, AP3 electric gun upgrade option)

7. 'colonisation' options such as water caste envoys that affect reserves rolls, earth caste builders that bolster defences.

8. New plastic kit: Orca as a heavy support option, like a cross between the valkyrie, a drop pod and a land raider. Would make an awesome planetstrike option.

coyote1066
21-07-2009, 22:52
1. Fire warriors should get a 3pts p/m upgrade option of personal targetting arrays. The downside is it is an experimental option and only works when the unit remains stationary as it needs a few seconds to lock on. (seems a fair balance to me given the amount of mech players out there)

2. Rail rifle option for commanders and their bodyguard @30pts.

3. All the plasma cannon/fusion cannon options for hammrheads from forgeworld.

4. Vespid get the option to switch between jump infantry and jet packs in the movement phase allowing rapid deployment but hit and run tactics in the fight.

5. The addition of morallian deathsworn (fearless speed bump), tarellian dog soldiers (slow but high T and fnp) as auxilaries. All troops choices. Auxilaries may not outnumber firewarrior squads.

6. 'ghost' suits as a fast attack choice used as a hard-hitting reserve (jump infantry, heavy flamer equivalent weapon, AP3 electric gun upgrade option)

7. 'colonisation' options such as water caste envoys that affect reserves rolls, earth caste builders that bolster defences.

8. New plastic kit: Orca as a heavy support option, like a cross between the valkyrie, a drop pod and a land raider. Would make an awesome planetstrike option.

Like 'em all. Some new (to me) ideas in there.

#7 I'd think Air Caste would affect reserve rolls and Water Caste would affect enemy morale. Earth could also repair vehicles.

#8 YES.

Tokamak
21-07-2009, 22:53
8. New plastic kit: Orca as a heavy support option, like a cross between the valkyrie, a drop pod and a land
raider. Would make an awesome planetstrike option.

Aye!

Plastic great knarlocs and an Apocalypse sized skimmer would be awesome.

AngryAngel
22-07-2009, 01:36
Tau tanks are fine, the sky ray is a little ehhh for me. The Ion cannon is a little weak for a MBT option. As for FW having bs 4, nope. Tau don't need that the BS 3 is fine. However they do need better markerlights. If you can field enough of them around you can raise the BS of your FW squads easy enough. Lower the costs of markerligh drones and let them shoot on the move with troop squads and this would go a long way to helping them out.

Etherals need to not be crap, and kroot need a little something. Pathfinders as well need a little something.

canucklhead
22-07-2009, 01:47
Essentially, everything in the Tau codex that is actually Tau does its job reasonably well. FW's are not hyper cyborg SM's so they shoot with BS 3, and sport much better guns.

The Tau are built on a system of everything has a job and a place, so their main battle tank and its one variant are built to support the infantry in a way very few others are. Skyrays are not meant to fight on their own. They are heavy weapon platforms attached to units, granting those units the ability to use them, without having to carry them around.

All that aside, the Tau are not a gimped army, they work reasonbly well if played by someone with skill. Can't ask for much more than that in a table top game.

Where they need help is the poorly thought out, bodged on alien allies. The Vespid especially. They need a complete rework, making them one thing or another, not a half*** version of everything.

As for the Kroot, they should be able to field three distinct unit types, all kroot, with shaper, perhaps with some changes to the numbers, followed by shaper with x number of Krootox, anti light armour support, and finally, one or two Kroot herders, with x number of Kroot hounds, fleet or furious charge or something to make them a viable assault unit.

Tau really don't 'need' much else. Not compared to armies like Necrons and Dark Eldar and Grey Knights.

Carlos
22-07-2009, 08:36
Ethereals could do with a few extra wargear options. The cover of the codex features a guy with armour ffs, so how about a 4+ save option? And I always loved that picture of the ethereal with the jetpack and his 2 crisis bodyguards overlooking the Kroot on Pech. This guy would make a cool special character, or give existing ones a jetpack and crisis bodyguard option.

Obviously the Codex would get re-jigged entries to fit in with the new army lists, something like this:

XV8 Crisis Team.......................40pts

Profile XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Unit Composition:
- 1x Shas'ui

Unit Type: Jump Infantry (Jet Pack)

Special Rules: Acute Senses, Deep Strike

Wargear: XV8 Battlesuit, Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Multi-Tracker

Options:
- May include up to two additional Shas'ui......+40pts per model
- Any model may replace its Burst Cannon and/or Missile Pod with:
-- Fusion Blaster +xpts/+ypts
-- Plasma Rifle +xpts/+ypts
-- Flamer +Free+
-- Heavy Flamer +xpts/+ypts
-- Missile Pod +ypts
-- Burst Cannon +ypts
- Any model may replace its Multi-tracker with:
-- Blacksun Filter +Free
-- Drone Controller +Free
-- Shield Generator +xpts
-- Target lock +xpts
-- Targetting Array +xpts
- Alternatively the whole squad may replace its Multi-trackers with
-- Vectored Retro Thrusters +xpts per model
- Any model with a Drone controller must select 1-2 drones:
-- Gun Drone +xpts each
-- Shield Drone +xpts each
-- Sniper Drone +xpts each (up to 2 per squad)
-- Marker Drone +xpts each
- One model may be upgraded to a Shas'vre for +xpts (NB: this would automatically bond the team)
-- A shas'vre may be equipped with extra multi-tracker replacements, counting them as hard-wired wargear.
- The whole squad may be upgraded to Iridium plating for +xpts per model
- The whole squad may be upgraded with Stimm Injectors for +xpts per model

Vaktathi
22-07-2009, 08:42
I don't think Tau tanks need all that many more variants, I think the Ion Cannon could use a bit of a change(make S6 AP3 Blast Heavy 3?) and the tanks could be a little cheaper (although they'd need to either get rid of Disruption Pods or make them much more expensive).

What really needs to happen is that Fire Warriors, Devilfish, Crisis Suits, Pathfinders, Stealth Suits, Pirhana's, Skyrays, and Sniper Drone teams come down in price, while Vespids are improved (a 4+save would do the trick) and Crisis Suit commanders need some more IG type utility (e.g. supporting the rest of the army rather than just being better BS crisis suits).

Deadnight
23-07-2009, 09:15
Oh, great, that's just what we need,
Isn't that what the Hardwired systems are for? You can take the support systems as Hardwired systems and not have to have them take up your suits hard point spaces.
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and please sir, if you may, what advantages do they give me? ;)

most of the gimmicky wargear has been invalided by 5th ed rules. the notion of "experimental weapons" is garbage.
sergeant bob of the emperor's laptops kills a nob, and gets a power weapon.
shas'el bob kills a nob and gets an erm... microwave projector (cib) yeah, sorry, i know we are built around s5. this is s3...:rolleyes:
the only thing of any real use is the PR to be honest. there is a "ninja tau" style relying on holding back your reserves, but to be honest, i dont think too much of it.

basically compare my commander to other HQs. chaplains, just by being there, generate re-rolls to hit. autarchs just generate strategy ratings of 4. ork bosses just generate the waaagh.

and tau commanders have to pay for a dodgy double edged "advantage" that is not all that great, and it comes at the expense of other stuff.

see where im coming from? tau commanders are just bs5 versions of elites.




I could see that. Do you have any ideas along those lines?
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i have a few based around a mont'ka application but it needs work. the concept is fine, but my application is slightly (read:hugely!) broken and unrealistic.
basically id envision it as the commander having a fire control node purpose built into his suit (not a goddamn HP) that would let him coordinate and integrate the targetting information of everyone around him. basically, id turn him into the sensor turret equipped commande vehicle in warzone 2100, if youve ever played it. great game...

as to its in game effect. count it like a markerlight. he has to "hit", a taget (aka nominating it) and then to integrate the armys fire, anyone who wishes to target it uses the commanders BS and LOS.
and obviously this is a deeply flawed idea as a railhead behind a city can not see through the commanders eyes, but it is the way id like to see commanders go. why do i want it this way? i dont want his ability to be a doom! clone. integrating firing information and focusing the armys fire to obliterate a specific enemy. some might also call it mont'ka.:D
but yeah, it needs a lot of work



Yeah, they should probably be boosted right off the table. I mean, you don't see the High Lords of Terra running around on the tabletop. Ethereals don't really belong on the battlefield, IMO.
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sadly this would make sense. then again, i see priests appearing in the IG list...
if they are on the field, they need to be hugely improved.



Well, I personally wouldn't mind overly much, as my main army is Space Marines, but I could see Ork and IG players screaming blue murder when they start getting their armies vaporized by pie plates they can't duck-and-cover against.
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im playing the worlds smallest violin, just for them. :D it would be broken if only we had 7 or 8 of those pie plates. but we got 3 max. and trust me when i say a submunition blast is nothing compared to what the IG can put out.:)

I did another thread there a while ago on markerlights and im not the only one who feels the old rules need to be brought back, even just to stop the damned book keeping.



The only other race I can think of that has 72" range guns would be the IG, and they've had that all along. Oh, sorry, Chaos...****** Defiler...Chaos should never have gotten a battle cannon platform in the first place, but that's a whole different kettle of fish. The point is still valid, though - Tau never had exclusive claim to the longest ranged gun on the table. That's always been IG, and nothing has ever gotten close to knocking the Basilisk off that particular hill (with its 3'-20' range, it's better suited to Apocalypse than normal 40K). As far as S10 and/or AP1 weapons go, there are not all that many more than there were before, and certainly damn few that combine both with the 72' range. So, your reasoning doesn't fly.
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IG, space marines, defiler, demons etc etc.

Im just saying when tau came out, the railgun was ahead of the curve. i want that honour back. argue fluff with me all you want (and ill probably agree with you) but i feel the army for whose theme is big bloody guns, its kinda sad that their biggest bloodiest gun is quite average.

Poseidal
23-07-2009, 09:27
autarchs just generate strategy ratings of 4. ork bosses just generate the waaagh.You could have at least chosen the Autarch ability that actually does something as opposed to the now useless strategy rating thing. And I think only Ghaskhull generates his own Waaagh, the normal Waaagh is a basic Ork thing.

And even then, the Autarch is not considered a good choice.



see where im coming from? tau commanders are just bs5 versions of elites.

SM captains are WS6 versions of sergeants.


Im just saying when tau came out, the railgun was ahead of the curve. i want that honour back. argue fluff with me all you want (and ill probably agree with you) but i feel the army for whose theme is big bloody guns, its kinda sad that their biggest bloodiest gun is quite average.

When the Fire Prism came out, it had the same blast as the Battlecannon but had better strength, armour penetration and armour save modifier; it was just one of the best main tank weapons in the game. Now? not so much: stuck with a small blast or a comparatively weak large blast. Things change like that. he difference is this: fluffwise, the Eldar should have more advanced and potent stuff; the Tau do not and are behind even the Imperium and Orks in technology.

jimbo1701
23-07-2009, 11:02
My vote would be cheaper sniper squadrons (so people may actually take them rather than hammerheads/broadsides) and cheaper/more effective pathfinders. Keep them as heavy but increase the BS/range on them and give them stealth. (also, a non-compulsory devilfish would be good) A special weapon drone would be nice. I'd be tempted also to steer clear of squadrons of tanks, but max them squadrons of 2 max if anything. (oh, and better ion cannon!)

Deadnight
23-07-2009, 11:38
You could have at least chosen the Autarch ability that actually does something as opposed to the now useless strategy rating thing. And I think only Ghaskhull generates his own Waaagh, the normal Waaagh is a basic Ork thing.
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iirc they get fleet. thraka gives them an auto-6. then again, i am slightly drunk at the time of writing so i could be wrong. as for the autarch, yes i know strat ratings are basically gone, but the point was just by being there, he generates a useful passive ability.



SM captains are WS6 versions of sergeants.


i still remember rites of battle. great rule...



When the Fire Prism came out, it had the same blast as the Battlecannon but had better strength, armour penetration and armour save modifier; it was just one of the best main tank weapons in the game. Now? not so much: stuck with a small blast or a comparatively weak large blast. Things change like that. he difference is this: fluffwise, the Eldar should have more advanced and potent stuff; the Tau do not and are behind even the Imperium and Orks in technology.

sir, you forget necron tech as well. quite far in advance of them pesky elves.

but you are not strictly true. On the most advanced stuff, and especially with psyonics, tau technology is still at the embryonic stage, if even there but on the everyday to mid level stuff it is quite excellent. and that to the fact they are constantly evolving their tech, refining it etc. ships for example. in the beginning, they were inferioir to the ork constructs. Now they happily blast them out of the sky and the more advanced ones are considered somewhat along the lines of imperial level tech, or a bit less than. and even with that said, the big, huge collossal difference is since the tau understand their tech better than others they seem to be able to apply it better, or apply innovative solutions.

eldar are sticking to the same old stuff with 10k years. you can make the point that it is already good enough that it does not need to improve etc but i view it as a different branch of the tree.

eldar do with magic what tau do with cold hard atheistic science.

as for orks. its the weird orky gubbinz that the tau wont get. but no one else does either. but a lot of ork tech is based on their latent psychic belief "dat da ting 'ere is gunna work hur hur" and not through advanced science and engineering.

as to eldar getting better stuff? i dunno. in the fluff? sure. table top? i think they are quite solid. though disruption pods are quite eldary to be honesy...

i do think though that tau deserve a bit of an edge to their weapons. i point out that when they came out, they had s5 guns when everything else was s4. they had railguns when everyone else had lascannons and lance weapons (plus some other few heavies, but there was no other str10 ap1 gun, or very few of them elsewhere)Now, they are rather prolific, and i'd just like to see the tau have one crown to boast about. they are squishy. they cant fight. their morale aint the best. biggest gun? i think its a fair compensation.:D

Poseidal
23-07-2009, 12:34
Shouldn't the Rail Gun have a 12-24" range because it doen't have rifling though?

Eldar don't use 'magic': Warp tech is science in the 40k world; doing things without Warp is like working without electricity. The only reason Necrons got around it is they had more than a million years headstart, and still didn't have FTL until the C'Tan came to help them cheat.

Eldar have also been developing weapons since the fall, things like Wraithguard and Lords (They use Spiritstones, which wasn't relevant to holding their spirit before the Fall in any way), Vypers pioneered by Saim-Hann etc.

The Ork latent psychic field is bunk; it was just an explanation not reviewed by peers of a technician who couldn't understand the advanced Ork technology. Note that the 'latent field' or not understanding is always from Imperial or Tau perspectives. Eldar (who understand their stuff) only call Orks crude/barbaric etc which doesn't have anything to do with being primitive; one of them even complimented them as the best.

Also, the Rail Gun isn't the Lascannon/Lance equivalent. There are no hand carried or team carried Rail Guns, it has to be tank or battlesuit mounted. The equivalent weapon is the Rapier Laser destroyer (which is about the same size).

Deadnight
23-07-2009, 12:45
Shouldn't the Rail Gun have a 12-24" range because it doen't have rifling though?
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metal gear rex would have been pretty awful if that was the case.



Eldar don't use 'magic': Warp tech is science in the 40k world; doing things without Warp is like working without electricity. The only reason Necrons got around it is they had more than a million years headstart, and still didn't have FTL until the C'Tan came to help them cheat.


and "alchemy" is science in full metal alchemist. magic is an institution like science in many different fantasy settings.
it is "magic" in the sense that 40k is fantasy set in space. psyonics are the sci-fi equivelant of "magics".



The only reason Necrons got around it is they had more than a million years headstart, and still didn't have FTL until the C'Tan came to help them cheat.
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irrelevant. necrons are still insanely advanced.



The Ork latent psychic field is bunk; it was just an explanation not reviewed by peers of a technician who couldn't understand the advanced Ork technology. Note that the 'latent field' or not understanding is always from Imperial or Tau perspectives. Eldar (who understand their stuff) only call Orks crude/barbaric etc which doesn't have anything to do with being primitive; one of them even complimented them as the best.
).

its quite real, actually.



Also, the Rail Gun isn't the Lascannon/Lance equivalent. There are no hand carried or team carried Rail Guns, it has to be tank or battlesuit mounted. The equivalent weapon is the Rapier Laser destroyer (which is about the same size).

it is the equivelant of those heavy weapons in the sense that it performs the same roles. you know. blowing up tanks. and as their main anti tank gun, it was leagues ahead of what everyone else had. Now, everyone has something similar. thats what i would like to see changed.
anyways, i'll point you to my 3rd ed space marine codex. they had the siege tank thing with the bigass gun. the 24" str10 gun. that one. and lascannons and meltas. No thunderfire cannons, stormspeeders, vanguards, sternguards, ironclads etc. that was what they played with.

see where im coming from? Hey look, if no changes come to the railgun, it wont bother me too much. its still a great gun. i just feel the tau should have the honour of having the best one.

Poseidal
23-07-2009, 12:53
metal gear rex would have been pretty awful if that was the case.

and "alchemy" is science in full metal alchemist. magic is an institution like science in many different fantasy settings.
it is "magic" in the sense that 40k is fantasy set in space. psyonics are the sci-fi equivelant of "magics".

Yet the Eldar approach it in the same manner as Medical, Engineering or any other field of technology. They study of it was done in a scientific way and they were the first to find out

irrelevant. necrons are still insanely advanced.

How is it irrelevant? The Necrons were still in trouble before they had to get literal material gods to help them show some other things. They didn't have FTL before then (as per the Necron Codex) so they would be at a clear disadvantage against the Warp capable Old Ones.


its quite real, actually.

Where is it apart from that (non peer reviewed) statement by that Tech Priest?

Remember correlation isn't always causation.



it is the equivelant of those heavy weapons in the sense that it performs the same roles. you know. blowing up tanks. and as their main anti tank gun, it was leagues ahead of what everyone else had. Now, everyone has something similar. thats what i would like to see changed.
anyways, i'll point you to my 3rd ed space marine codex. they had the siege tank thing with the bigass gun. the 24" str10 gun. that one. and lascannons and meltas. No thunderfire cannons, stormspeeders, vanguards, sternguards, ironclads etc. that was what they played with.

see where im coming from? Hey look, if no changes come to the railgun, it wont bother me too much. its still a great gun. i just feel the tau should have the honour of having the best one.
So it's the equivalent of the Demolisher Cannon? (that would be better at destroying tanks during 3rd ed thanks to being Ordnance) - so it was a trade off with range or blast/power then.

Lascannons were and still are also more common.

Deadnight
23-07-2009, 13:40
Yet the Eldar approach it in the same manner as Medical, Engineering or any other field of technology. They study of it was done in a scientific way and they were the first to find out
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what are you trying to say here? my apologies, but ive lost the direction of where this point came from



How is it irrelevant? The Necrons were still in trouble before they had to get literal material gods to help them show some other things. They didn't have FTL before then (as per the Necron Codex) so they would be at a clear disadvantage against the Warp capable Old Ones.
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so? point was in the codex their technology was insanely advanced. how they got it is irrelevant, really.
that was the only point i was making in the first place. that when you said imperials and eldar had insane tech, you left out the toaster ovens. and tau tech is superior in a lot of ways to the general, and low to mid level imperial things and coming some way up to par in others, whilst failing dramatically in others (eg psyonics, warp diving etc) can we agree on that statement?



Where is it apart from that (non peer reviewed) statement by that Tech Priest?

Remember correlation isn't always causation.
.

as an example, in the medusa campaign, i remember the tau caught an ork warlord and could not figure out how his heap of scrap was able to fly. he escaped, hopped in and got it working.
I've read enough references over 3 editions of the game, enough codices, and enough Bl publications to feel that yes, ork tech works cos they believe it will work.
and tau tech is still quite a lot more advanced if you ask me, which was my original point.




So it's the equivalent of the Demolisher Cannon? (that would be better at destroying tanks during 3rd ed thanks to being Ordnance) - so it was a trade off with range or blast/power then.

Lascannons were and still are also more common.

you are deliberately failing to see the point i am making.

i never said "railguns are the equivelant of a demolisher cannon".

*sigh*


I said in an era populated by meltaguns, lascannons and lance weapons, tau came along with a weapon that was clearly ahead of the curve with a 72" range (most everything else had 48), s10, and ap1. the standard armys of the time played around with lascannons and lances. there were some heavies around (eg the rarely taken demolisher) but by and large, it was typically the biggest gun to hit the table.

Im gonna say this as simply as possible (not an insult of you btw, but im just hoping there can be no misreading of what i am saying/implying)

Back then, it was the biggest scariest gun out there, by and large.

But now, with 2 editions, and a lot of codex creep (and i feel a lot of it is in the right direction. i love the ork codex, i love the guard codex, and i think the marine one is great, save for the overblown fluff) this most powerfullest of the guns just isnt.
everyone being done lately has something similar to bring to the table.
imperials have er... lots of stuff.
marines have thunderfires.
daemons have something as well.
you can be as sure as hell after the wolves are done, necrons will get some insane weaponry as well.

and i just think it is a shame that an army who, on the table top claims to have serious firepower, and relies on said serious firepower (mainly direct serious fire. its not ordnace) to a far greater extent than would be seen in other armies, has firepower that is quite middle of the road in terms of the power creep, especially when you look at the modern codices.

see where i am coming from?

guard themes are hordes of infantry, loads of tanks, and torrents of artillery, and that is extremely well represented in the codex.
But the tau approach of bringing seriously heavy fire just is less than overwhelming by comparison. its a style of play that can be played by everyone else. their theme of huge guns and awesome firepower is very "meh", when i feel that they should be a bit better than "meh". quite simply its not as frightening as it should be, if you get my meaning here. One of my personal complaints is that tau really dont have a viable niche at the moment. all the can bring really are mobility and firepower.
But on the tabletop, I will argue that guard are capable of being faster than tau. they have faster "fast" vehicles, and the awesome valkyrie. they can quite happiiy outshoot tau.
Eldar are the same (and theyre meant to be that bloody fast anyway before you accuse me of saying something else entirely) and they have excellent firepower. No complaints. But moving on before i forget my train of though, i will say that I just think its sad that space marines, chaos marines, guard, eldar, dark eldar etc are capable of outshooting tau, when tau are supposed to be this awesomely powerful shooting force, and who, at least on the tabletop should be quite a lot better than they are now.

and that sums it up. Poseidal, im hoping you see where im coming from.

Poseidal
23-07-2009, 13:52
as an example, in the medusa campaign, i remember the tau caught an ork warlord and could not figure out how his heap of scrap was able to fly. he escaped, hopped in and got it working.
I've read enough references over 3 editions of the game, enough codices, and enough Bl publications to feel that yes, ork tech works cos they believe it will work.
and tau tech is still quite a lot more advanced if you ask me, which was my original point.

That strikes to me as them not knowing how the rugged and advanced Ork technology functions though. The Orks are the same race that can make Gargants protected by very good forcefields.


and that sums it up. Poseidal, im hoping you see where im coming from.
In terms of Tau focus, they currently still have big guns but units like Firewarriors are quite expensive for what they do.

What I would say is they should have a few shifts around. Something like Pathfinders are made into troops, marker lights can be used as assault weapons and perhaps some variants for different deployment options (scout/infiltrate/deep strike etc).

Also, fixing the obviously bad units like the Skyray and Vespids too.

ikit_claw
23-07-2009, 14:59
Also, fixing the obviously bad units like the Skyray and Vespids too.

Honestly, I don't get what everyone has against the Sky Ray. If you can't make it work for you, you're not trying hard enough. That thing has six unlimited range shots that don't need LOS, hit on a 2+, and will lay waste to anything short of a Land Raider. In larger games, I take it with a pair of Railheads. The Seekers can take care of the vehicles for a few turns while I send pie plate templates across the board. And once the thing's expended its payload, it still has a pair of extremely useful Markerlights. It's also great to use as mobile cover, and I kit mine out with Flechette Dischargers to deny assaults and act as a nasty surprise for any unit that tries to engage it in close combat.

I will agree, Vespid need some work. Either make the guns Assault 2, or extend their range, even if it's just to 15".

getupandgo
23-07-2009, 15:53
I'm going to thread jack a little, since this seems to be turning into a wish a list for tau codex.

Detached gun drones should definitely NOT give up KP. That is the way it was ruled in the first 3 tournaments after 5th ed came out, and then for some reason they decided to reverse that. It makes absolutely no sense.

Firewarriors need to drop in price or be BS4. Also, Carbines need a bit of a boost.

Crisis commander should to drop the 1+

Have a new option for Firewarrior commander. (my one semi-unrealistic wish)

Crisis suits are over-priced, especially at BS3. Should drop in price, as should the plasma rifle(back to 3rd ed codex pricing).

Sniper drones should be moved to troops, and allowed to be tacked on to firewarrior teams, or possibly allowed to be tacked on to stealth teams or pathfinder teams.

Lower the points cost of piranhas. As it is, they are way over-priced. Same with Devilfish, although to a lesser extent.

Possibly lower the cost of seeker missiles by a slight amount, but that MIGHT be overkill if everything else is lowering in cost.

Ethereals need a boost. Not a big one, but possibly some anti-phych dampening field or just SOMETHING. Making Honor Guard scoring would be a big plus. Power weapon maybe?

A couple new troop options, including, as others have said, some more merc choices are pretty much required. After all, it's the Tau "Empire"... there's not a whole lot of "empire" in the codex right now. You don't have to take advantage of it, but it should certainly be an option.

And finally, for the love of the flying spaghetti monster, make some decent looking vespid models (and fix the stat line a little, or make them a little cheaper).

Deadnight
23-07-2009, 16:12
That strikes to me as them not knowing how the rugged and advanced Ork technology functions though. The Orks are the same race that can make Gargants protected by very good forcefields.
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no it was a plane that by the law of physics, could not and should not actually work, not that "its so advanced we cant figure it out! oh noes!!" ork tech is cobbled together for the most part. and quite a lot of it will explode in a very amusing manner, kill maim and burn dozens of boyz and give da rest of da ladz sumtin ter laff abaut.

and as another example of ork thinking things and making it happen - "da red 'unz go faster". belief then turns into fact.



In terms of Tau focus, they currently still have big guns but units like Firewarriors are quite expensive for what they do.
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indeed, but its only scratching the surface im afraid.



What I would say is they should have a few shifts around. Something like Pathfinders are made into troops, marker lights can be used as assault weapons and perhaps some variants for different deployment options (scout/infiltrate/deep strike etc).
.

No, i just would like to see markerlights made less cumbersome. pathfinders are excellent as they are, and they really dont need to be troops. something along the lines of grenadiers/stormtroopers in the sense that you can equip them with specific gear/USRs for a specific job.
eg:
recon team: 80pts. they get the fish and the scout move, and generate +1 to reserve rolls (pulling the army forward)
spotter team: 100+pts. they(and only they!) get access to unlimited seeker missiles (represents them linked up to skyray support in the rear. imo its the only place that horrible tank should feature in the tau list) and basically, they become devestators with a 36" range.
heavy gunner team: 10pts/model and they get rail rifle with targetting array and target lock (TA is optional, but its there to compete against the "devestator" options.

And im not gone on assault lights. its hard enough running and keeping a laser pointer aimed in even a vaguely general direction.



Also, fixing the obviously bad units like the Skyray and Vespids too.

as i said, id make the skyray an upgrade to pathfinders. vespids? agreed. they need teef.



I'm going to thread jack a little, since this seems to be turning into a wish a list for tau codex.

dont they always?


Detached gun drones should definitely NOT give up KP. That is the way it was ruled in the first 3 tournaments after 5th ed came out, and then for some reason they decided to reverse that. It makes absolutely no sense.

makes sense.


Firewarriors need to drop in price or be BS4. Also, Carbines need a bit of a boost.
no to bs4 fire warriors. ditto with the price drop. i think they need to be made more effective on the whole though. heavy 2 pulse rifles, and assault 2 carbines has been tested on them and the results were favourable, and i think the feel is right. and free photons. which is a given if you ask me.



Crisis commander should to drop the 1+
no. they lead the cadre. they have more right being there than an etherial.


Have a new option for Firewarrior commander. (my one semi-unrealistic wish)
no. pointless. tau officers get suits. FW commanders is like an option for deathwing power armour...


Crisis suits are over-priced, especially at BS3. Should drop in price, as should the plasma rifle(back to 3rd ed codex pricing).
make it assault 2 would be my choice, and replace the flamers and burst cannons with superior designs


Sniper drones should be moved to troops, and allowed to be tacked on to firewarrior teams, or possibly allowed to be tacked on to stealth teams or pathfinder teams.
No. but i would like to see rail rifle drones made more available to people with drone controllers. that and drones controlled by a drone controller using his BS instead of their own (he controls them, he should be able to aim them)


Lower the points cost of piranhas. As it is, they are way over-priced. Same with Devilfish, although to a lesser extent.
agreed in the fish. IMO remove the pirahna. its an ad-hoc jury rigged light skimmer. i think the shas have had long enough to design a dedicated fast skimmer.


Possibly lower the cost of seeker missiles by a slight amount, but that MIGHT be overkill if everything else is lowering in cost.
im more of a fan of giving all vehicles a brace of them, or else designing new types of seekers.


Ethereals need a boost. Not a big one, but possibly some anti-phych dampening field or just SOMETHING. Making Honor Guard scoring would be a big plus. Power weapon maybe?
oh they need a huge boost, not a little one. if i pay out for a model that causes half my army to run off when he dies, i want him to do a lot more for me than twin-link my morale.


A couple new troop options, including, as others have said, some more merc choices are pretty much required. After all, it's the Tau "Empire"... there's not a whole lot of "empire" in the codex right now. You don't have to take advantage of it, but it should certainly be an option.
find a niche for them first though... its kinda hard.
kroot need a few options though, and fire warriors need to be reworked.


And finally, for the love of the flying spaghetti monster, make some decent looking vespid models (and fix the stat line a little, or make them a little cheaper).

id make them count as jetbikes for movement and increase the range and/or rof of the guns.

Creeping Dementia
23-07-2009, 16:27
Oh I hope they don't make Photon grenades manditory on all Firewarriors, that would suck. I don't give my firewarriors Photons, on purpose. If my Firewarriors get assaulted I need them to lose in one turn so I can wipe out the assaulters in my shooting phase. Photons just reduce my chance of accomplishing that. Currently I see taking them as paying for a disadvantage, making them a required disadvantage would hurt FWs not help them.

I pray they don't remove Piranha, they're my favorite unit and the reason I initially started with Tau. I'd could actually see them expanding the idea to include something like the TX-42 instead.

I agree with most of the rest of the stuff you outlined though.

Grand Master Raziel
23-07-2009, 18:46
What really needs to happen is that Fire Warriors, Devilfish, Crisis Suits, Pathfinders, Stealth Suits, Pirhana's, Skyrays, and Sniper Drone teams come down in price, while Vespids are improved (a 4+save would do the trick) and Crisis Suit commanders need some more IG type utility (e.g. supporting the rest of the army rather than just being better BS crisis suits).

I think it's virtually a given that Devilfish will come down in price, considering the fact that every single dex that's come out since Codex: Dark Angels (except for Orks, who were already getting their transport for a rock-bottom price) has had their transports come down significantly in price. Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, Pirhanas, Skyrays, and Sniper Drones...maybe. I'm not seeing Crisis Suits and Stealth Suits come down in price, though. Suit Spam is already one of the more obnoxious things about playing against Tau, and I don't see GW doing anything to directly encourage that. Some of their options might get downcosted a little, but I'd be surprised if the plasma gun+missile pod Crisis Suit comes down in price.


and please sir, if you may, what advantages do they give me? ;)

What, the HW Multitracker and HW Target Lock? Those things are so ubiquitious in Tau armies, I'd be surprised if they weren't standard gear in the new dex. Then again, GW persists in the idea that SM players might have a captain take the field toting a chainsword instead of paying 15pts for a power weapon, so they might not. They make the iron halo part of the SM Captain's default gear, but not a PW. :rolleyes:


most of the gimmicky wargear has been invalided by 5th ed rules. the notion of "experimental weapons" is garbage.
sergeant bob of the emperor's laptops kills a nob, and gets a power weapon.
shas'el bob kills a nob and gets an erm... microwave projector (cib) yeah, sorry, i know we are built around s5. this is s3...:rolleyes:
the only thing of any real use is the PR to be honest. there is a "ninja tau" style relying on holding back your reserves, but to be honest, i dont think too much of it.

Well, that's a whole different complaint. That's not "this stuff takes up hardpoints" so much as "this stuff sucks". The only comment I can make to that is that I expect that anything that's been invalidated by 5th edition rules will get revamped to fit the current rules.


basically compare my commander to other HQs. chaplains, just by being there, generate re-rolls to hit. autarchs just generate strategy ratings of 4. ork bosses just generate the waaagh.

and tau commanders have to pay for a dodgy double edged "advantage" that is not all that great, and it comes at the expense of other stuff.

see where im coming from? tau commanders are just bs5 versions of elites.

Well, the Chaplain is a good example to support your argument, but as previously observed, the Waaagh is something Orks just get, it doesn't come from the Warboss. The Warboss does let an Ork player take a unit of Nobz as Troops, I believe, though. However, all the Autarch does is get to have any of the Aspect Warrior gear he wants, and SM Captains and Chaos Lords are just choppier versions of Veteran Sergeants and Aspiring Champions, respectively.



i have a few based around a mont'ka application but it needs work. the concept is fine, but my application is slightly (read:hugely!) broken and unrealistic.

[snipped]

I think I get what you're saying, but could you not accomplish this by giving your Crisis Suit Commander a drone controller and a pair of markerlight drones? Maybe do that with his bodyguard, too. I'm not saying that this is a good option, but it is what I'd expect a game designer to ask - does it need some kind of new rule, or can it be accomplished with what's already in the book?


sadly this would make sense. then again, i see priests appearing in the IG list...
if they are on the field, they need to be hugely improved.

Priests are considered expendable by the Imperium. Ethereals, not so much by the Tau, or at least that's what I'd think. Admittedly, I hope they don't remove Ethereals, because if I ever run a Tau army, I'm going to use green stuff to convert up an extremely fat Kroot Shaper with a distended belly, and say he counts as an Ethereal, cause he just ate one. :D


Im just saying when tau came out, the railgun was ahead of the curve. i want that honour back. argue fluff with me all you want (and ill probably agree with you) but i feel the army for whose theme is big bloody guns, its kinda sad that their biggest bloodiest gun is quite average.

My position is that, as a long-range anti-tank weapon, the rail gun is still unparralleled. There are guns with similar range, there are S10 guns, there are AP1 guns, but nothing out there puts them all together like the rail gun does.


anyways, i'll point you to my 3rd ed space marine codex. they had the siege tank thing with the bigass gun. the 24" str10 gun. that one. and lascannons and meltas. No thunderfire cannons, stormspeeders, vanguards, sternguards, ironclads etc. that was what they played with.

Well, the thunderfire cannon is kind of silly and fragile, and it doesn't really have the same role as the rail gun anyway. As far as Vanguards and Sternguards go, they're an outgrowth of the Veteran Squad that was in the 3rd and 4th ed books - not a particularly good outgrowth, IMO (DA Company Vets would have been a better one), but there was a precedent. Stormspeeders and Ironclads, yeah. I think there's little question that something new will pop up next time Tau get a dex, judging from Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Orks. Heck, even Chaos got something new (Vindicators).


But moving on before i forget my train of though, i will say that I just think its sad that space marines, chaos marines, guard, eldar, dark eldar etc are capable of outshooting tau, when tau are supposed to be this awesomely powerful shooting force, and who, at least on the tabletop should be quite a lot better than they are now.


Well, I think you might be slightly misappraising where Tau are supposed to function best. It's true that a SM army can generally outshoot a Tau army at long range. However, short range is a whole other story. Once in that 12" envelope, Tau have horrifying firepower. The tricky bit is getting them there without getting stuck in assaults. Tau players still have reasonably good tools for doing so, but the army isn't quite as OTT as it was in 4th edition, and some things do need to be fixed.



Firewarriors need to drop in price or be BS4. Also, Carbines need a bit of a boost.

A price drop, maybe. BS4 is not happening. I'll agree that Carbines need a boost, though. Maybe make them Assault 2? Or would that make them totally supplant pulse rifles?


Crisis commander should to drop the 1+

Why? What else have you got? Are you going to have your army take the field led by only an Ethereal?


Have a new option for Firewarrior commander. (my one semi-unrealistic wish)

That's not likely. Fire Warriors "graduate" to being Crisis or Stealth Suit pilots when they get promoted. They're still Fire Warriors, they're just not in Fire Warrior squads anymore.


Crisis suits are over-priced, especially at BS3. Should drop in price, as should the plasma rifle(back to 3rd ed codex pricing).

Like I said up at the top, the chances of that happening are virtually nil. Plasma is going up in price everywhere. GW is not going to drop the price of plasma for Tau.


Sniper drones should be moved to troops, and allowed to be tacked on to firewarrior teams, or possibly allowed to be tacked on to stealth teams or pathfinder teams.

That pretty much flies directly in the face of the established fluff for how the Tau operate, and would make Tau operate much like any other army where units get upgraded weapons, except they'd still have their S5 guns. If Fire Warriors and whatnot were going to get upgrades like that, then pulse weapons would have to come down to S4, because they'd no longer be relying on the univeral S5 shooting to carry the day.


Lower the points cost of piranhas. As it is, they are way over-priced. Same with Devilfish, although to a lesser extent.

Weeeellll....I'd say that the Piranha has pretty appropriate pricing based on what the next most equivalent vehicle (the SM Land Speeder) gets for its price, at least in the last dex. SM Speeders did come down a bit, so maybe Piranha will, too. I would't expect too much, though. The SM Speeder may have a longer ranged basic gun and BS4, but the Piranha has front AV11 (making it impervious to small arms fire from that angle) and those gun drones, which can either provide more firepower or be detached to operate independently and contest objectives. Yeah, it sucks that they give up a KP when you do that in KP missions, but you have the option of not doing so. I regard that sort of in the same light that I regard the SM Combat Squads rule - there are times when you don't want to do it.


Ethereals need a boost. Not a big one, but possibly some anti-phych dampening field or just SOMETHING. Making Honor Guard scoring would be a big plus. Power weapon maybe?

Scoring Honor Guard are a maybe, but anti-psych or power weapons are right out. Either one of those would be totally inappropriate given the existing background material.


A couple new troop options, including, as others have said, some more merc choices are pretty much required. After all, it's the Tau "Empire"... there's not a whole lot of "empire" in the codex right now. You don't have to take advantage of it, but it should certainly be an option.

I'd rather see the existing merc choices tweaked to make them compare equally with the Tau units than see new ones added. Also, if you have too many, it begins to dilute the overall "Tau-ness".



I pray they don't remove Piranha, they're my favorite unit and the reason I initially started with Tau. I'd could actually see them expanding the idea to include something like the TX-42 instead.

I don't think there's much danger of Piranha going away. They're currently the only Fast Attack choice in the dex that both A: do something worth their points cost and B: are appropriate to the Fast Attack category.

Anyway, here's a few thoughts of my own on what might be appropriate tweaks for the next Tau Dex:

1: Shift Pathfinders over to Elites. Fast Attack is not really an appropriate category for Pathfinders. They were only there in the first Tau dex because GW hardly had anything else to put there, and that was done back in the day when giving a unit a cumpulsory transport was enough to have it be Fast Attack. Given what they do, Elites would be a much more logical home for Pathfinders.

2: Shift Sniper Drone Teams over to Elites: In the Heavy Support category, Sniper Drones compete with Hammerheads, Broadsides, and Sky Rays, and pretty much lose out against those choices almost all the time. Again, Elites would be a more appropriate category for them. Plus, with both Sniper Drones and Pathfinders in Elites, you might see less Suit-Spam, as Tau players would have some other viable choices in that category.

3: Change Kroot's cover save bump in natural terrain rule to a simple +1 to cover saves. The main problem with Kroot is that their worth is too dependant on what kind of terrain happens to be on the table. Terrain being kind of an abstract thing, unit shouldn't be penalized for ruins being on the table instead of trees when the two terrain types do exactly the same thing (grant a 4+ cover save). This could be covered fluff-wise simply by stating that Kroot are adaptable hunters that quickly learn to blend in to whatever terrain they happen to be operating in, the principles of camoflage being the same no matter what sort of terrain you're in.

[edited in cause I forgot it]
4: Make burst cannons and pulse carbines defensive weapons on Tau vehicles. Possibly smart missile systems, too. Personally, I think what is and isn't a defensive weapon ought to be handled in vehicle profiles rather than trying to come up with one criteria for all armies. At the very least, pulse carbines should be defensive weapons, so Tau aren't penalized for not having any S4 vehicle weapons.

Other than that, I don't have much that hasn't already been mentioned elsewhere.

Voss
23-07-2009, 19:15
Tau wont get heavy vehicle squads.. 9x Hammerheads... Ow.

I fully encourage all guard players to squadron up as much as possible. After all its to everyone (else)'s benefit that they make their tanks easier to destroy and waste firepower.


On the Tau subject... Tau tanks are good enough as is. Sure, they needed to be tweaked a little for 5th, but they have some really good upgrades and can do their job effectively.

What the Tau really need is for the markerlights to be integrated effectively. Whether its to ditch the mandatory devilfish for pathfinder squads (so the markerlights don't cost so bloody much), or have a special functionality in the shooting phase (somewhat like the IG orders, but you distribute markerlight tokens to targets instead of issuing orders) or some other functionality that makes it clear that the markerlights are contributing to the greater whole of the army in an effective way.

Hmm. I may have to dig out my Tau and smack people around with them. They can do terrible things in the current local metagame, and have the notable advantage of being completely unrepresented locally.

Creeping Dementia
23-07-2009, 19:21
1: Shift Pathfinders over to Elites. Fast Attack is not really an appropriate category for Pathfinders. They were only there in the first Tau dex because GW hardly had anything else to put there, and that was done back in the day when giving a unit a cumpulsory transport was enough to have it be Fast Attack. Given what they do, Elites would be a much more logical home for Pathfinders.

2: Shift Sniper Drone Teams over to Elites: In the Heavy Support category, Sniper Drones compete with Hammerheads, Broadsides, and Sky Rays, and pretty much lose out against those choices almost all the time. Again, Elites would be a more appropriate category for them. Plus, with both Sniper Drones and Pathfinders in Elites, you might see less Suit-Spam, as Tau players would have some other viable choices in that category.

3: Change Kroot's cover save bump in natural terrain rule to a simple +1 to cover saves. The main problem with Kroot is that their worth is too dependant on what kind of terrain happens to be on the table. Terrain being kind of an abstract thing, unit shouldn't be penalized for ruins being on the table instead of trees when the two terrain types do exactly the same thing (grant a 4+ cover save). This could be covered fluff-wise simply by stating that Kroot are adaptable hunters that quickly learn to blend in to whatever terrain they happen to be operating in, the principles of camoflage being the same no matter what sort of terrain you're in.

Other than that, I don't have much that hasn't already been mentioned elsewhere.

I agree with number 2, but number 1 would be a bad idea. Moving Snipers to Elites would probably have them see more use, as we Tau players really use our Elite section to bring the good mid-strength/Low AP weaponry. If Pathfinders got moved to Elites though then I can guarantee they would be used even less than they are today, especially if the Sniper Drones inflated the Elites section as well. Pathfinders would be the worst unit in a section (Elite), rather than being roughly tied for first with Piranha as they currently are in Fast. I do agree that Pathfinders don't belong in Fast Attack though, moving them to Troops seems more ideal than any other section, add Tetras into Fast Attack instead. I know you hate Suit Spam, as you mentioned several times in you post, but Pathfinders are not a good alternative to Suits and won't compete well for an Elite slot, and it would just be a way to push Tau players away from their cheapest source of Markerlights.

You may not like it but I could really see the Tau going more toward suits and Markers rather than away from them in future Codexes.

*edit* I do agree on the Kroot though, the +1 to cover in only woods/jungles has always been dumb.

isaac
23-07-2009, 19:34
To be fair, whenever I play with my friend (who plays only tau), I always make sure there are 1-2 forests on the field (depends on the number of points).

I place this in the same area as amphibious chimeras. Useful, but so limited.

ikit_claw
23-07-2009, 19:55
One thing I'd like to see would be the option to equip the commander with either an XV8 or an XV22 suit. Though I suppose there'd have to be some drawback to the XV22, or else it would completely supplant the XV8. Maybe XV22's could only be worn by a Shas'O?

I like the idea of Pathfinders being moved to Troops and Sniper Drones being moved to Elites. I think this would be a much more suitable arrangement for both units. To make a fourth troop choice, I think the much-touted idea of Gue'La auxiliaries is worth some thought, though I would propose that one can only field one unit of Gue'La for every two units of Fire Warriors. Those four units acting as the core of the army give it tactical flexibility without sacrificing fluffiness.

As for Fast Attack? I'd sure like to see Tetras.

Tanks, as I've said before, are probably one of the few things about the Tau army that don't really need fixing. If the Ion Cannon was given some little boost to make it a more viable choice next to the Railgun (and some great ideas have been passed around this thread), then I think the Hammerhead would be completely fine. I know a lot of people don't like the Sky Ray, but I personally love the thing (though I'll sacrifice it to field Sniper Drones from time to time). I honestly don't even think we need a fourth Heavy Support choice. The two tanks and Broadsides (though I never, ever, ever use Broadsides on principle) are more than enough for me.

Col. Tartleton
23-07-2009, 22:01
Simple idea that really won't change anything.

Tau Platoons:

0-1 Sha'vre Ground Commander: Crisis Suit [of course]
-option of a 2 Shas'ui team

1-2 Fire Warrior Team
6-12 Shas'la, one can be upgraded to shas'ui full options

0-2 Gun Drone Squads
4-8 Gun drones

0-1 Pathfinder Team
4-8 Shas'la one can be upgraded to shas'ui full options

0-3 Devilfish

This pretty much formalizes the format for Tau troops. It allows for cadres to have internal structures which would help their modern war style.

It amounts to having a single troops choice that can be a crisis suit sub commander and six fire warriors which is always useful and certainly won't hurt anything selection wise. The more Crisis the better I say ;).

But then you can have a shas'vre with his retainers leading three mounted infantry squads with drone support.

This provides a more integrated use of crisis suits.

Kroot already have a rough platoon, but if the unit was doubled in max size and price drops and some minor improvements it would be a good counter to most units. 40 kroot plus hounds and oxes would be probably the best unit in the list for holding objectives. I see Tau as being used to cut the enemy while kroot block enemy strikes. A sort of sword and board tactic of Kauyon and Mont'ka where Kroot force the enemy to bloody themselves fighting them and the Tau troopers launch devastating attacks.
------------------------------------------------------------------
I have two ideas for special characters.

The Dragon of Elsy'eir: a Kauyon focused Shas'O (Shas'O Elsy'eir Naga'Lasa) who can have a life story based on Uesugi Kenshin and a long standing rivalry with Farsight during the Arkunasha war. Farsights taking the fight to the enemy with his mobile suit cavalry (and blood red armor) give a little tie in to Takeda Shingen. Naga'Law (Commander Fire Serpent) would buff fire warriors to assault 2 30" giving them a very lethal balance of firepower and mobility (assault would allow them to hop out of their transports and fire a volley) and keeping them out of harms way always (Also Kenshin developed a tactic to improve his men's individual fighting abilities by switching them off to maximize damage output.) Similar tau drill would lead to a constant fighting withdrawal that continuously lures the enemy forward only to be cut down and never catch their prey. Making Naga'Lasa a Greater Good fanatic who his men refer to as their "El'Eir" or Divine Captain would help carry the theme further. Weapons would be twin Shoulder Rockets and a mildly suped up plasma rifle (range 30) and simply add him to the list of Pure Tide students.

My other would be Shas'O Fal'shia Kais Lar'shi'vre (Commander Skilled Protector) would allow all vehicles to deepstrike and because they're skimmers they ignore rolls for dangerous terrain on their entry. He pretty much turns a mobile army even faster. He'd be piloting a crisis with TL burst cannons and TL missile pods. Yes, 4 hard points, he's a special character after all.

ikit_claw
23-07-2009, 22:15
Er...if we needed platoons, we'd be Guard players.

Deadnight
24-07-2009, 10:31
I think it's virtually a given that Devilfish will come down in price, considering the fact that every single dex that's come out since Codex: Dark Angels (except for Orks, who were already getting their transport for a rock-bottom price) has had their transports come down significantly in price. Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, Pirhanas, Skyrays, and Sniper Drones...maybe. I'm not seeing Crisis Suits and Stealth Suits come down in price, though. Suit Spam is already one of the more obnoxious things about playing against Tau, and I don't see GW doing anything to directly encourage that. Some of their options might get downcosted a little, but I'd be surprised if the plasma gun+missile pod Crisis Suit comes down in price.

i would see suits coming down to 20 to be honest. they cost what they did when they could hide effectively. Now, its not so easy. Weirdly though, with 5th im using my suits more than ever than in 4th or 3rd as i can use my tanks as LOS blocking mobile bunkers. i would like to see a few little changes though. Not to stat lines. I dont think tau should have awesome stats, but they should have good funs.
plasmas should be assault 2.
flamers should be replaced with heavy flamers.
burst cannon (on crisis suits) should be replaced with some kind of ion rifle (railgun-rail rifle, ion cannon-ion rifle) that is not a cib. or if it is, make is s5 and we're talking about something halfway decent.



What, the HW Multitracker and HW Target Lock? Those things are so ubiquitious in Tau armies, I'd be surprised if they weren't standard gear in the new dex. Then again, GW persists in the idea that SM players might have a captain take the field toting a chainsword instead of paying 15pts for a power weapon, so they might not. They make the iron halo part of the SM Captain's default gear, but not a PW. :rolleyes:

i was referring to the awesome wargear options he has.;) heck, i still tool up my commanders as i did in 4th. that tells you all you need to know about their current crop of gizmos.



Well, that's a whole different complaint. That's not "this stuff takes up hardpoints" so much as "this stuff sucks". The only comment I can make to that is that I expect that anything that's been invalidated by 5th edition rules will get revamped to fit the current rules.
Its kinda both to be honest. Mainly that yes, they suck, but also that i must take it at the expense of something else, if you get my meaning. Its not a truly valid comparison i know but imagine if farseers got either witchblades OR psychic powers, or a SM commander gets a power weapon OR an iron halo. thats how it geels to me.



Well, the Chaplain is a good example to support your argument, but as previously observed, the Waaagh is something Orks just get, it doesn't come from the Warboss. The Warboss does let an Ork player take a unit of Nobz as Troops, I believe, though. However, all the Autarch does is get to have any of the Aspect Warrior gear he wants, and SM Captains and Chaos Lords are just choppier versions of Veteran Sergeants and Aspiring Champions, respectively.

if its enough to make a point, then im happy. Id just like him to have some passive abilities.


[snipped]


I think I get what you're saying, but could you not accomplish this by giving your Crisis Suit Commander a drone controller and a pair of markerlight drones? Maybe do that with his bodyguard, too. I'm not saying that this is a good option, but it is what I'd expect a game designer to ask - does it need some kind of new rule, or can it be accomplished with what's already in the book?
no, you are not. firstly the price that is sheer extortion. secondly, it does not feel right. giving him an ability that can blow up? we have that with shadowsun. her only useful feature can be shot to pieces.
If he was able to integrate other peoples fire (and i feel this is quite a valid niche that he can fill) it should be through his tactical abilities, if you get my meaning. You know, a chaplain just generates re-rolls to hit, the shas'el or shas'o should have an equivelant. i feel its only fair.


Priests are considered expendable by the Imperium. Ethereals, not so much by the Tau, or at least that's what I'd think. Admittedly, I hope they don't remove Ethereals, because if I ever run a Tau army, I'm going to use green stuff to convert up an extremely fat Kroot Shaper with a distended belly, and say he counts as an Ethereal, cause he just ate one. :D

that would be... awesome. Aun'o'gestion:D Seriously though, etherials wont be on the field all that often, but when they do, it is for something hugely important. As to what id give them? leadership based powers somewhere between sisters' prayers, and IG orders. he does have this "religious" significance over the tau, and i could see a story about an IG soldier being shot by a commissar for speaking these heretical notions of blasphemous alien "miracles" that he has seen. Why, clearly, the man is quite mad!;)


My position is that, as a long-range anti-tank weapon, the rail gun is still unparralleled. There are guns with similar range, there are S10 guns, there are AP1 guns, but nothing out there puts them all together like the rail gun does.

i do feel a bit different about it to be honest. the railgun is fine yes, but i would just like that little bit extra oomph!


Well, the thunderfire cannon is kind of silly and fragile, and it doesn't really have the same role as the rail gun anyway. As far as Vanguards and Sternguards go, they're an outgrowth of the Veteran Squad that was in the 3rd and 4th ed books - not a particularly good outgrowth, IMO (DA Company Vets would have been a better one), but there was a precedent. Stormspeeders and Ironclads, yeah. I think there's little question that something new will pop up next time Tau get a dex, judging from Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Orks. Heck, even Chaos got something new (Vindicators).
i have no doubts they will get something. im just terrified at what it will be. if the previous codex "update" is anything to go by, GW really dont know what to do with tau...



Well, I think you might be slightly misappraising where Tau are supposed to function best. It's true that a SM army can generally outshoot a Tau army at long range. However, short range is a whole other story. Once in that 12" envelope, Tau have horrifying firepower. The tricky bit is getting them there without getting stuck in assaults. Tau players still have reasonably good tools for doing so, but the army isn't quite as OTT as it was in 4th edition, and some things do need to be fixed.
its kinda sad though as they're supposed to excel at mid to long range though. the only exceptional long range guns they have are railguns.



A price drop, maybe. BS4 is not happening. I'll agree that Carbines need a boost, though. Maybe make them Assault 2? Or would that make them totally supplant pulse rifles?
make carbines assault 2, and pulse rifles heavy 2 and dead is extremely happy.


Like I said up at the top, the chances of that happening are virtually nil. Plasma is going up in price everywhere. GW is not going to drop the price of plasma for Tau.

it already costs too much though. if they keep the price, id like to see it go up to assault 2. but as it is we pay more for it, and we can take less of it. (and incedentally, dont broadsides pay, like 10pts for a tl plasma upgrade? crisis suits pay twice as much for the non tl-version)


That pretty much flies directly in the face of the established fluff for how the Tau operate, and would make Tau operate much like any other army where units get upgraded weapons, except they'd still have their S5 guns. If Fire Warriors and whatnot were going to get upgrades like that, then pulse weapons would have to come down to S4, because they'd no longer be relying on the univeral S5 shooting to carry the day.

I am against the notion of fire warrior heavy and special weapons, but i think giving them better drone options is a really interesting way to take them, without flying in the face of fluff.
change drone controller models to the node that the sniper drone guy has.
change drone controllers so you get the DC and 2 gun drones for 20pts.
change drone controller rules so drones controlled use the firer's BS (he controls them, he should aim them as well by rights)
Allow the gun drones to be swapped for shield drones, or upgrades to marker or rail rifle drones for 5pts each (20pts each when you factor in the shas'ui and other factors)
And no, its not a fire warrior special weapon.
yes, it is drone based. And GW want drones to be seen more in tau lists.
yes, it is technology focused.
if you ask me, it ticks all the right boxes...


Weeeellll....I'd say that the Piranha has pretty appropriate pricing based on what the next most equivalent vehicle (the SM Land Speeder) gets for its price, at least in the last dex. SM Speeders did come down a bit, so maybe Piranha will, too. I would't expect too much, though. The SM Speeder may have a longer ranged basic gun and BS4, but the Piranha has front AV11 (making it impervious to small arms fire from that angle) and those gun drones, which can either provide more firepower or be detached to operate independently and contest objectives. Yeah, it sucks that they give up a KP when you do that in KP missions, but you have the option of not doing so. I regard that sort of in the same light that I regard the SM Combat Squads rule - there are times when you don't want to do it.

i dont like pirahnas anyway. i think the model sucks.



I'd rather see the existing merc choices tweaked to make them compare equally with the Tau units than see new ones added. Also, if you have too many, it begins to dilute the overall "Tau-ness".

agreed


1: Shift Pathfinders over to Elites. Fast Attack is not really an appropriate category for Pathfinders. They were only there in the first Tau dex because GW hardly had anything else to put there, and that was done back in the day when giving a unit a cumpulsory transport was enough to have it be Fast Attack. Given what they do, Elites would be a much more logical home for Pathfinders.
its ok to put them in FA if you ask me. why? think about it. save infiltrators, in FA, they are deployed last.


2: Shift Sniper Drone Teams over to Elites: In the Heavy Support category, Sniper Drones compete with Hammerheads, Broadsides, and Sky Rays, and pretty much lose out against those choices almost all the time. Again, Elites would be a more appropriate category for them. Plus, with both Sniper Drones and Pathfinders in Elites, you might see less Suit-Spam, as Tau players would have some other viable choices in that category.

i think sniper drone teams are horrid to be honest. id rather the only good thing they had (rail rifle drones) was integrated directly into the list. anyways swapping slots wont do them any good. they still come out as losers in the competition between slot choices.
similarly with pathfinders. they are viable in FA (especially when you put them against gun drones and vespids) and just mess the list up too much when put elsewhere. there is just too much competition for those extremely valuable places.
Tau need their suits, unfortunately. Less of them is bad. and putting one, or two other choices in to compete with them is truly horrid and messed up.


3: Change Kroot's cover save bump in natural terrain rule to a simple +1 to cover saves. The main problem with Kroot is that their worth is too dependant on what kind of terrain happens to be on the table. Terrain being kind of an abstract thing, unit shouldn't be penalized for ruins being on the table instead of trees when the two terrain types do exactly the same thing (grant a 4+ cover save). This could be covered fluff-wise simply by stating that Kroot are adaptable hunters that quickly learn to blend in to whatever terrain they happen to be operating in, the principles of camoflage being the same no matter what sort of terrain you're in.
i think its a better option that if you buy a shaper, you get an evolutionary adaptation. (read the merc codex for them things) i could see cameleon (stealth) being one of those choices.

Carkey
24-07-2009, 13:06
Having read some interesting posts and thoughts on the matter, I believe that this is what the troop section of the next Codex should look like.


Mont'ka Platoon 0-3
Composition: 1 Command Squad, 1-5 Fire Warrior Team, 0-2 Kroot Kindred, 0-1 Gue'la Auxilieries, 0-1 Sniper Drone Teams, 0-3 Drone Squads

XV8 Battlesuits
Team:1 Shas'vre, with the option of 2 Shas'ui

1-5 Fire Warrior Team
Team: Team consists of between 6-12 Fire Warriors
Options:Pulse Carbines, Photon Grenades, EMP Grenades, Shas'ui, Markerlighter, Devilfish

0-2 Kroot Kindred
Team: 0-20 Kroot, 0-15 Kroot Hounds, 0-6 Krootox Rider, thought the unit may not consist of more than 20 models
Options: One character may be upgraded to a Shaper at a cost of x points.

Special Rules:
Field Craft
Infiltrate
Shaper's Craft: If a Shaper is included in a unit of Kroot, a D6 must be thrown before deployment. On a result of 1 or 2 the unit gains the universal rule Fearless, on a result of 3 or 4 the units benefits from a +1 cover save for all terrain, on a roll of 5 or 6 all units gain an extra Initiative point.

0-1 Gue'la Auxilieries
WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
Gue'la | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 7 | 5+ |
Gue'ui | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 8 | 5+ |

Team: 0-20 Gue'la
Equipment:Pulse Carbines, though up to half of the unit may take Pulse Rifles
Options: If the squad numbers 12 or less it may be mounted in a Devilfish, one Gue'la may be upgraded to a Gue'ui at +12 points

0-1 Sniper Drone Teams
Team: Up to three teams of three Sniper Drones and one Spotter.

0-3 Drone Squadrons

Kauyon Platoon
Composition:1-3 Pathfinder Squadrons, 0-1 Piranha Teams, 0-2 Tetra Teams

1-3 Pathfinder Squadrons

Team: Consists of between 4-8 Pathfinders and a Devilfish

0-1 Piranha Teams
Team: Consists of between 1 and 5 Piranhas

0-2 Tetras

This, or so I feel, is a good way of how Mont'ka and Kauyon teams would be composed.
The Mont'ka has a good solid base of Fire Warriors, with the option of mechanisation, with which to deal with an opponent in he traditional Tau manner. This base is backed up by the Auxiliaries; the Kroot providing either a traditional Kroot Force, a heavy Krootox section or a counter strike force, loaded with the fast hitting Kroot hounds. A good defensive block of 20 Carbines comes in the shape of the Gue'la. They provide good mid ground between the close combat Kroot and the 30' Tau.
The Kauyon is a fast and mobile force of markerlighters and inflitrators. While it is not large in number, this option is more about mobility than strength.

Deadnight
24-07-2009, 13:50
Having read some interesting posts and thoughts on the matter, I believe that this is what the troop section of the next Codex should look like.

with all due respect, but its basically copied and pasted from "platoons for the imperial guard: volume 1". originality is lacking, if you ask me. leave platoons for the guardsmen. tau have their own organisation, and it is hugely fluid. they dont do platoons. their forces are based around "cadres", and they are hugely variable. platoons dont work, and they dont fit, if you ask me.



Quote Mont'ka Platoon 0-3
Composition: 1 Command Squad, 1-5 Fire Warrior Team, 0-2 Kroot Kindred, 0-1 Gue'la Auxilieries, 0-1 Sniper Drone Teams, 0-3 Drone Squads

command squads???? thats lost it for me, right there. that IS the IG.


0-2 Kroot Kindred
Team: 0-20 Kroot, 0-15 Kroot Hounds, 0-6 Krootox Rider, thought the unit may not consist of more than 20 models
Options: One character may be upgraded to a Shaper at a cost of x points.

Special Rules:
Field Craft
Infiltrate
Shaper's Craft: If a Shaper is included in a unit of Kroot, a D6 must be thrown before deployment. On a result of 1 or 2 the unit gains the universal rule Fearless, on a result of 3 or 4 the units benefits from a +1 cover save for all terrain, on a roll of 5 or 6 all units gain an extra Initiative point.

randomly rolled abilities? very bad idea.


0-1 Gue'la Auxilieries
WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
Gue'la | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 7 | 5+ |
Gue'ui | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 8 | 5+ |

Team: 0-20 Gue'la
Equipment:Pulse Carbines, though up to half of the unit may take Pulse Rifles
Options: If the squad numbers 12 or less it may be mounted in a Devilfish, one Gue'la may be upgraded to a Gue'ui at +12 points

giving them the worst infantry weapon in the game (Carbine) as a standard sidearm? Now, what is the point taking fire warriors with flak armour, which is basically what these guys are when i can take real fire warriors.



This, or so I feel, is a good way of how Mont'ka and Kauyon teams would be composed.

erm, no. mont'ka and kauyon are tactics, not unit badges.



The Mont'ka has a good solid base of Fire Warriors, with the option of mechanisation, with which to deal with an opponent in he traditional Tau manner. This base is backed up by the Auxiliaries; the Kroot providing either a traditional Kroot Force, a heavy Krootox section or a counter strike force, loaded with the fast hitting Kroot hounds. A good defensive block of 20 Carbines comes in the shape of the Gue'la. They provide good mid ground between the close combat Kroot and the 30' Tau.
The Kauyon is a fast and mobile force of markerlighters and inflitrators. While it is not large in number, this option is more about mobility than strength

a few flaws:
fire warriors are usually regarded as kauyon troops, not mont'ka troops (even though they are not confined to either role). along with broadsides. which make no appearance anywhere, despite having a typically huge role to play in kauyon tactics as applied by the tau.
secondly as i said above, mont'ka and kauyon are tactical applications of the forces to hand. the former is about annihalating a specific enemy, the latter is not about being fast and mobile, but using lures, setting traps, and letting the enemy come to you.
furthermore to the above point, all units in the tau army would typically have roles to play both in mont'ka and kauyon battle plans. 12 fire warriors in a devilfish are as effective as a mont'ka strike force moving up to seize a position, as they are at popping out in the open, then hightailing it and drawing fast enemy units after them and into a trap. the codex itself says there are dozens, if not hundreds of applications of each tactic. and its not as simple as fire warriors=mont'ka
thirdly, you are making "montka" and "kauyon" platoons without placing other higely important units who could play a role in either. broadsides, hammerheads, vespids and skyrays come to mind. even if the idea was not kinda flawed in the first place, having less than half the relevant units in each platoon kinda defies the purpose of said platoons.

overall, fair play for trying, but the ideas are flawed, and dont really "feel" right. its basically "tau doing the IG thing"

Grand Master Raziel
24-07-2009, 16:44
If Pathfinders got moved to Elites though then I can guarantee they would be used even less than they are today, especially if the Sniper Drones inflated the Elites section as well. Pathfinders would be the worst unit in a section (Elite), rather than being roughly tied for first with Piranha as they currently are in Fast. I do agree that Pathfinders don't belong in Fast Attack though, moving them to Troops seems more ideal than any other section, add Tetras into Fast Attack instead. I know you hate Suit Spam, as you mentioned several times in you post, but Pathfinders are not a good alternative to Suits and won't compete well for an Elite slot, and it would just be a way to push Tau players away from their cheapest source of Markerlights.

I'm really not seeing the problem. Tau players could take one squad of Pathfinders (that'd be about all they'd ever need) and still have a possible four Suit squads (including an optional second Crisis Suit Commander and his team), which is still plenty of Suit Spam. What they do belongs more in the Elite category than anywhere else. Certainly not in Troops. You don't use Pathfinders to storm and hold objectives. You use them to marker up opposing units so your other units can blow them away.



I have two ideas for special characters.

The Dragon of Elsy'eir: a Kauyon focused Shas'O (Shas'O Elsy'eir Naga'Lasa) who can have a life story based on Uesugi Kenshin and a long standing rivalry with Farsight during the Arkunasha war. Farsights taking the fight to the enemy with his mobile suit cavalry (and blood red armor) give a little tie in to Takeda Shingen. Naga'Law (Commander Fire Serpent) would buff fire warriors to assault 2 30" giving them a very lethal balance of firepower and mobility (assault would allow them to hop out of their transports and fire a volley) and keeping them out of harms way always (Also Kenshin developed a tactic to improve his men's individual fighting abilities by switching them off to maximize damage output.) Similar tau drill would lead to a constant fighting withdrawal that continuously lures the enemy forward only to be cut down and never catch their prey. Making Naga'Lasa a Greater Good fanatic who his men refer to as their "El'Eir" or Divine Captain would help carry the theme further. Weapons would be twin Shoulder Rockets and a mildly suped up plasma rifle (range 30) and simply add him to the list of Pure Tide students.

My other would be Shas'O Fal'shia Kais Lar'shi'vre (Commander Skilled Protector) would allow all vehicles to deepstrike and because they're skimmers they ignore rolls for dangerous terrain on their entry. He pretty much turns a mobile army even faster. He'd be piloting a crisis with TL burst cannons and TL missile pods. Yes, 4 hard points, he's a special character after all.

I guess there's a precedent for DSing transports - SM Drop Pods. The thing about DPs, though, is that once they drop in, they can't go anywhere, so they have a built in limitation. DSing Devilfish might be a tad much, although it pales in significance to the other guy's ability. Making all pulse rifles Assault 2 30"? Who would take anyone else? Not to mention that'd make pulse carbines completely irrelevant.


i would see suits coming down to 20 to be honest. they cost what they did when they could hide effectively. Now, its not so easy. Weirdly though, with 5th im using my suits more than ever than in 4th or 3rd as i can use my tanks as LOS blocking mobile bunkers. i would like to see a few little changes though. Not to stat lines. I dont think tau should have awesome stats, but they should have good funs.
plasmas should be assault 2.
flamers should be replaced with heavy flamers.
burst cannon (on crisis suits) should be replaced with some kind of ion rifle (railgun-rail rifle, ion cannon-ion rifle) that is not a cib. or if it is, make is s5 and we're talking about something halfway decent.

Expecting Crisis Suits to come down that much in price strikes me as extremely wishful thinking. I'm not seeing plasmas becoming assault 2, either, nor do I think that you'll see burst cannons get replaced - they're too iconic a Tau weapon. I totally agree on the heavy flamers, though. If it's going to take up a suit hardpoint, it ought to be a little more impressive.




Its kinda both to be honest. Mainly that yes, they suck, but also that i must take it at the expense of something else, if you get my meaning. Its not a truly valid comparison i know but imagine if farseers got either witchblades OR psychic powers, or a SM commander gets a power weapon OR an iron halo. thats how it geels to me.

Well, SM Commanders are largely about being choppy, and since 3rd edition there have been situational modifiers regarding what they can and can't take - models in Terminator Armor can't take pistols or grenades, for instance. Plus, in the case of Crisis Suit Commanders, they don't need to have all 3 of their hardpoints be weapon-based. The basic Commander is BS4 and the upgraded one is BS5. Who cares if their plasma rifle isn't twin-linked?



if its enough to make a point, then im happy. Id just like him to have some passive abilities.

I think the Ethereal would be a more natural choice for passive army-wide boosts. Plus, the Crisis Suit Commander can have some passive army-boosting abilities with the Positional Relay or the Command and Control Node. Admittedly, you'd probably never see both on one Commander, but you could take two Commanders to get one of each.



that would be... awesome. Aun'o'gestion:D Seriously though, etherials wont be on the field all that often, but when they do, it is for something hugely important. As to what id give them? leadership based powers somewhere between sisters' prayers, and IG orders. he does have this "religious" significance over the tau, and i could see a story about an IG soldier being shot by a commissar for speaking these heretical notions of blasphemous alien "miracles" that he has seen. Why, clearly, the man is quite mad!;)

I could see something based on those pheromones that Ethereals secrete that compel the rest of the Tau to do what they say. One idea would be to allow units within X" of the Ethereal the option of voluntarily failing their Ld test. Think about how handy that would be. Maybe the rule could even be called "Fly, You Fools!" ;)


its kinda sad though as they're supposed to excel at mid to long range though. the only exceptional long range guns they have are railguns.

I really don't see how anyone can take a hard look at what weapons Tau have and come away with the impression that they're supposed to excel at long-range shooting. Anyway, that's always been the Imperial Guard's niche. Tau are more about mobile short-ranged firepower.


make carbines assault 2, and pulse rifles heavy 2 and dead is extremely happy.

I'm not seeing heavy 2 pulse rifles. That'd incourage players to use Fire Warriors in a static fashion, and that flies in the face of the fluff. Plus, anybody who's been playing a Tau AirCav army would have to swap out all their pulse rifles for pulse carbines in order to keep playing his army the way he designed it.


it already costs too much though. if they keep the price, id like to see it go up to assault 2. but as it is we pay more for it, and we can take less of it. (and incedentally, dont broadsides pay, like 10pts for a tl plasma upgrade? crisis suits pay twice as much for the non tl-version)

Well, Broadsides are replacing a perfectly good Smart Missile System in order to get the TL-plasma. Also, the plasma isn't such a good weapon on Broadsides, because they don't have the mobility of Crisis Suits. For Broadsides, I actually consider the plasma to be a downgrade from the SMS.


I am against the notion of fire warrior heavy and special weapons, but i think giving them better drone options is a really interesting way to take them, without flying in the face of fluff.
change drone controller models to the node that the sniper drone guy has.
change drone controllers so you get the DC and 2 gun drones for 20pts.
change drone controller rules so drones controlled use the firer's BS (he controls them, he should aim them as well by rights)
Allow the gun drones to be swapped for shield drones, or upgrades to marker or rail rifle drones for 5pts each (20pts each when you factor in the shas'ui and other factors)
And no, its not a fire warrior special weapon.
yes, it is drone based. And GW want drones to be seen more in tau lists.
yes, it is technology focused.
if you ask me, it ticks all the right boxes...

My main issue with the idea is that having the sniper drones attached to the Fire Warrior team encourages it to be static, which Fire Warriors are not supposed to be.


i dont like pirahnas anyway. i think the model sucks.

You may not like the model, but I'm sure you'd agree that Pirahnas are the most fast attacky of the Tau's Fast Attack options.


its ok to put them in FA if you ask me. why? think about it. save infiltrators, in FA, they are deployed last.

That doesn't matter anymore, remember?


i think sniper drone teams are horrid to be honest. id rather the only good thing they had (rail rifle drones) was integrated directly into the list. anyways swapping slots wont do them any good. they still come out as losers in the competition between slot choices.
similarly with pathfinders. they are viable in FA (especially when you put them against gun drones and vespids) and just mess the list up too much when put elsewhere. there is just too much competition for those extremely valuable places.
Tau need their suits, unfortunately. Less of them is bad. and putting one, or two other choices in to compete with them is truly horrid and messed up.

I'm not saying Tau don't need their Suits, but do they really need to have up to 5 squads (not counting Broadsides) of them? Is it going to kill Tau players to have maybe one less Suit squad in order to take a squad of Pathfinders or a Sniper Drone team? Most dexes have a lot of competition for the Elites slot. Suits could use a little, IMO. Plus, there are the odd Tau players who are not crazy about Suits. Might be nice to give them a non-suit Elite choice.

As for the idea of Tau platoons, I also think that's a non-starter. I also don't think that Human Auxiliaries are going to ever make it into a Tau dex. What can be done with them that isn't already covered by either Kroot or Fire Warriors? What might be interesting to do would be to come up with a whole Human Auxiliaries army list, using (captured) Imperial Guard gear with some Tau upgrades and a Tau-like organization, with some Tau "advisors" as Elite and HQ choices.

Deadnight
24-07-2009, 18:11
I'm really not seeing the problem. Tau players could take one squad of Pathfinders (that'd be about all they'd ever need) and still have a possible four Suit squads (including an optional second Crisis Suit Commander and his team), which is still plenty of Suit Spam. What they do belongs more in the Elite category than anywhere else. Certainly not in Troops. You don't use Pathfinders to storm and hold objectives. You use them to marker up opposing units so your other units can blow them away.

you need to take 2 commanders, which is ridiculous, and overpriced bodyguards for said commanders. in order to solve a problem that really does not, and should not exist.

E
xpecting Crisis Suits to come down that much in price strikes me as extremely wishful thinking. I'm not seeing plasmas becoming assault 2, either, nor do I think that you'll see burst cannons get replaced - they're too iconic a Tau weapon. I totally agree on the heavy flamers, though. If it's going to take up a suit hardpoint, it ought to be a little more impressive.

they came down by 5pts last time so its not beyond reason. ;) as for burst cannons, the reason i want a more powerful anti horde machine gun (for want of a better word) is because burst cannons on crisis suits really do suck, and are never actually taken. if its overpriced, drop a few points, if its never taken, replace it, or make it better.



Well, SM Commanders are largely about being choppy, and since 3rd edition there have been situational modifiers regarding what they can and can't take - models in Terminator Armor can't take pistols or grenades, for instance. Plus, in the case of Crisis Suit Commanders, they don't need to have all 3 of their hardpoints be weapon-based. The basic Commander is BS4 and the upgraded one is BS5. Who cares if their plasma rifle isn't twin-linked?

well right now, all my commander does reliably is shoot things at bs4-5. the upgrades he has really are terrible and just not worth taking. SM commanders can do more than just kill stuff better than their peers. thats what i want shas commanders to have as well.


I think the Ethereal would be a more natural choice for passive army-wide boosts. Plus, the Crisis Suit Commander can have some passive army-boosting abilities with the Positional Relay or the Command and Control Node. Admittedly, you'd probably never see both on one Commander, but you could take two Commanders to get one of each.

both commanders are your answer again? not good man. you dont often see 2 SM commanders leading an SM force either on the table top or in the fluff, so why shoudl tau do it?
anyways im all for the shas commander getting tactical abilities, and the etherial giving leadership abilities.


I could see something based on those pheromones that Ethereals secrete that compel the rest of the Tau to do what they say. One idea would be to allow units within X" of the Ethereal the option of voluntarily failing their Ld test. Think about how handy that would be. Maybe the rule could even be called "Fly, You Fools!" ;)

i have a few ideas myself, along the lines of prayers/orders.

"extend your reach brothers!" unit adds 6" to its range
"do not falter, my brothers!!" units save becomes invulnerable and/or they gain FNP.
etc etc


I really don't see how anyone can take a hard look at what weapons Tau have and come away with the impression that they're supposed to excel at long-range shooting. Anyway, that's always been the Imperial Guard's niche. Tau are more about mobile short-ranged firepower.

em, the fluff, maybe???;):wtf: read the codex...


I'm not seeing heavy 2 pulse rifles. That'd incourage players to use Fire Warriors in a static fashion, and that flies in the face of the fluff. Plus, anybody who's been playing a Tau AirCav army would have to swap out all their pulse rifles for pulse carbines in order to keep playing his army the way he designed it.

i've no problems swapping rifles for carbines for my fish-squads.
as for flying in the face of fluff, tau dont constantly run and shoot at the same time. the codex says they move up, take a position, make the kill, and then move to the next position. once their prepared scenarios cease to apply, they retreat.
heavy 2 seems reasonable to me, especially as it represents perfectly that constant withering hail of fire you'd face all the way in when trying to storm tau positions. and it wont be the de facto option. 5th requires your troops (or some of them) to be mobile and that would necessitate one or two squads staying mobile whilst the others give convering fire.
anyway, there are examples of fire warriors fighting from prepared positions, and fighting a static fight.



Well, Broadsides are replacing a perfectly good Smart Missile System in order to get the TL-plasma. Also, the plasma isn't such a good weapon on Broadsides, because they don't have the mobility of Crisis Suits. For Broadsides, I actually consider the plasma to be a downgrade from the SMS.
i find it handy to be honest.



My main issue with the idea is that having the sniper drones attached to the Fire Warrior team encourages it to be static, which Fire Warriors are not supposed to be.
see above. it can also be used on crisis suit teams as well.;) gives some interesting new tactics as well, methinks.



You may not like the model, but I'm sure you'd agree that Pirahnas are the most fast attacky of the Tau's Fast Attack options.
no.


I'm not saying Tau don't need their Suits, but do they really need to have up to 5 squads (not counting Broadsides) of them? Is it going to kill Tau players to have maybe one less Suit squad in order to take a squad of Pathfinders or a Sniper Drone team? Most dexes have a lot of competition for the Elites slot. Suits could use a little, IMO. Plus, there are the odd Tau players who are not crazy about Suits. Might be nice to give them a non-suit Elite choice.

you dont often see 5 whole squads of them, mate. shas commander obviously. you'll never see bodyguards. then possibly one or two squads after him. and they'll either be monats or squads of 2. crisis suits get too damned expensive to take 5 squads of them.
and yes, it would kill me to put pathfinders and sniper drones in elites. they dont belong there. you're giving a solution to a problem that does not exist, and causing 3 more problems as a result.
as for tau players not being fond of suits: tough on them. suits are the iconic tau "thing". like marines and power armour. tau sans suits is not tau. its like asking for guard not to have hordes, tanks, and artillery...


As for the idea of Tau platoons, I also think that's a non-starter. I also don't think that Human Auxiliaries are going to ever make it into a Tau dex. What can be done with them that isn't already covered by either Kroot or Fire Warriors? What might be interesting to do would be to come up with a whole Human Auxiliaries army list, using (captured) Imperial Guard gear with some Tau upgrades and a Tau-like organization, with some Tau "advisors" as Elite and HQ choices.

i agree to the first part.
to the second, tau mainly seem to use gue'la as garrison troops on their home worlds. they dont really bring anything to the tau military that the shas dont do themselves anyway. i see no point putting them in the list to be honest.

Creeping Dementia
24-07-2009, 20:15
I'm really not seeing the problem. Tau players could take one squad of Pathfinders (that'd be about all they'd ever need) and still have a possible four Suit squads (including an optional second Crisis Suit Commander and his team), which is still plenty of Suit Spam. What they do belongs more in the Elite category than anywhere else. Certainly not in Troops. You don't use Pathfinders to storm and hold objectives. You use them to marker up opposing units so your other units can blow them away.


What they do belongs in elites??? Have you ever used pathfinders??? The summary of what they do is sit in cover for two turns and then die. How is that elite? What other armies use their elites as a small squishy unit that fires for maybe 2 turns and then spends the rest of its time running for its life. Eldar Rangers don't go storming objectives, they must be elites, hell even Marine Tacs don't go storming objectives untill it's been cleared by termies or been run over by a Land Raider. Granted much of my argument is based on the Pathfinders poor viability as a whole, but there is nothing in either fluff (like their rank, they're 'las) or gameplay that denotes them as elite. Now I'm personally of the opinion that I won't take either choice as they currently are anyway, Pathfinders have no survivability, and Sniper Drones are overpriced. So the way they are right now I don't care which slot they're in, I won't take them even if they used no FOC slot. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic (probably left over from the crap of the recent Lizardmen release, thought it would get me back into fantasy), but I don't think we'll get huge improvements in the PFs and Sniper drones and moving the their FOC would kill them for good.

And as for having 5 units of suits, sometimes we do need that many units. In a competitive environment we have 2 things that we can rely on, suits, and tanks. I personally don't take 5 suit units, but I'm taking 12 Skimmers (only one elite slot used). The other varient I'm looking at building trades out 3-5 skimmers but brings me up to 5 suit units. The tradeoff is survivability for increased firepower. My Mech list has good survivability, but the suit list has teeth (and about 7 less KP). And you rarely see that 2nd HQ slot being used anyway, its too expensive and is killed in assault easily by a bad move on your part, or a good fleet/DT test or Waggggh roll.


I completely left off any static forces, because our untransported infantry sucks. Tau players have had it drilled into our heads over the past couple years by Drop pods, horde orks, SM and IG gunlines, Mech Eldar, Mech anything else; that static Tau cannot compete. We either get outshot (SM IG), or assaulted after having one turn to shoot at them (Drops, Mech Eldar). It's move or die. Any options that encourage purely static behavior in the current competitive climate will never be taken by Tau players that know what they're doing. Currently we can cope with a couple static units to serve as bait in Kau'yon, like a unit of PFs and Broadsides, or Snipers and Broadsides, but thats about it. But our 'hybrid' builds will rarely have more than 2 non-mobile elements.

As for changing Firewarrior options from the current, to Assault 2 carbines or heavy 2 rifles... that would just suck, because I just finished painting 50 FWs with rifles and I'd have to change them all out to Carbines.

Lowmans
24-07-2009, 20:51
give them a scoot and shoot artillery piece.

Seems a gap in the list and fluff

Mechnomancer
27-07-2009, 04:05
Tau Tanks definately need some upgrades. Specifically the Devilfish. Seekers just don't cut it. I want to some more specialty upgrades. Light armor piercing like the ion cannon would be great. Along with this would be more and different drones. I really like the stealth field drone idea, but allow vehicles to take them. In fact let all our vehicles to choose the drones they carry.

shaso_iceborn
27-07-2009, 06:01
I noticed I didn't see flyers for Tau in this wishlist. I would love to see Baracudas added to the tau.

Carlos
27-07-2009, 07:48
Platoons? HAHAHAHA!

Fact is the Tau work very well in their existing form. All the codex really needs is the same thing the eldar one had done to it: Tidy up the units no-one takes (Vespids), Adjust costs for things appropriately (25pts for Disruption Field, 40pts for a Piranha) and add in a few new toys to play with. Luckily for the GW design team forge world has a whole slew of things to steal: Remora drone fighters, TX-42's, Tetra's and a plastic Orca would be a good start. All they really need to do is add rules for the Morallian Deathsworn, Tarellian Dog Soldiers and Hrenian Light Infantry (as mentioned in Apocalypse) and we have a winner. And not Gue'vesa. They're *****.

Tau don't have 'command squads' as promotion = battlesuit.

Creeping Dementia
27-07-2009, 15:26
I noticed I didn't see flyers for Tau in this wishlist. I would love to see Baracudas added to the tau.

I'm probably overly synical because of all the Imperial attention lately, but I can't imagine the Tau getting that much love. The big Guard kit was their flier, the best I'm going to hope for is jetbikes (Tetra) or bigger drones (Remora or Heavy gun drones).

shaso_iceborn
27-07-2009, 15:58
I'm probably overly synical because of all the Imperial attention lately, but I can't imagine the Tau getting that much love. The big Guard kit was their flier, the best I'm going to hope for is jetbikes (Tetra) or bigger drones (Remora or Heavy gun drones).

You're probably right, but I can hope after all the Tau way of war is air power.

carldooley
27-07-2009, 18:07
since we're wishlisting, why not try for disruption pods for suits? In sixth they are probably going to do away with all the cover saves as it is. Having something in the codex would trump that nicely.

Gazak Blacktoof
27-07-2009, 18:25
It would be cooler, IMHO, if the Tau were more varied - i.e. that they incorporated more alien vassals into their army lists. I wish the Tau would become more like a Federation of aliens than just an army with a few token auxillary units.

I hope that they add one or two new non-Tau units every time they update the codex.

Lusall
28-07-2009, 17:32
Tau battle tanks are laughable. Just compare it's heretical form to the mighty size of the Leman Russ. Don't fear it's massive gun. It's just for show, and it's shot is as effective as a hot shot Lasgun.

Creeping Dementia
28-07-2009, 17:35
Tau battle tanks are laughable. Just compare it's heretical form to the mighty size of the Leman Russ. Don't fear it's massive gun. It's just for show, and it's shot is as effective as a hot shot Lasgun.

What are you talking about?

Zanzibarthefirst
28-07-2009, 17:55
I'm probably overly synical because of all the Imperial attention lately, but I can't imagine the Tau getting that much love. The big Guard kit was their flier, the best I'm going to hope for is jetbikes (Tetra) or bigger drones (Remora or Heavy gun drones).

heavy gun drones shouldn't be too much of a problem to do, they already have the basis structure.

New stprue with new weapons for hammerhead shoudlnt be too hard to do

Tau could still get a flier (barracuda) which woudl be a very nice addition.

Brother Gathurn
28-07-2009, 20:47
markerlights should definetly be BS4 or mabye even 5 there to hard to hit with rith now. I also think rail rifles should be actual snipers

Lusall
30-07-2009, 04:35
What are you talking about?

I'm talking about the Heresy of the alien technology. What are -you- talking about?

Vangarde
30-07-2009, 05:06
its a joke written in the imperial infantrymen's uplifting primer, damocles crusade edition.

Jackmojo
30-07-2009, 05:23
I think the tau list could do with minor tweaking:

1. simplified marker light rules, personally, I think these should be the army wide buff, much like orders in the new IG codex.
2. general cost reduction and 5th edition-ification
3. unlimited missiles from Skyray (its got a kit, that is all plastic, its not likely to go away)
4. increased usefulness/changes in rules/stats on some units: ethereal, vespids, drones, Ion-head.
5. Kill point correction.

As for wishlist stuff, there's room for any amount of that, and I'd love to see a big plastic Orca kit, some nicasser gypsy psykers, and other castes, but those are a total "who knows" in regards to the future.

Jack

Shas'o Brightsword
01-08-2009, 01:46
As a Tau player myself. I am very happy with the heavy support section except the snipers! First off i dislike the models and they are to expensive for what they are worth. And personally i love the kroot i bought a whole squad shaper 4 hounds and a kootox i think they look great! But the vespid are LACKING i bought some to fight my friend who plays ultramarines but i couldn't get them close enough to the marines to use there ap 3 weapons which made me quite angry when they were blown to bits by a devastator squad. And i wish the pathfinders could infiltrate that would be nice and not have to have the fish. A new tank would be nice like a anti infantry tank some type of plasma i mean come on were suppose to be VERY high tech.

Shas'o Brightsword
01-08-2009, 02:06
o and i would like a new plastic orca or barracuda that would be nice. ANd just wondering when is the next tau codex out or rumored to be out cause i have heard nothing of it.?

Shas'o Brightsword
01-08-2009, 02:06
crud i forgot to subscribe my bad sorry...

Skyrir
01-08-2009, 06:10
Fire Wariors should definitely not have BS 5 IMO. That would make them quite capable of butchering marines, and while I'm not at all biased in the marines favor (I don't and have never played them), the fluff dictates that SM are superior infantry to FW. I'd say they are more like IG with uberlasers than SM.

Shas'o Brightsword
01-08-2009, 06:59
Fire warriors should get bs 4

Bouncl
01-08-2009, 07:25
Fire warriors should not get BS4. They should get cheaper.

Creeping Dementia
01-08-2009, 07:26
Fire warriors should get bs 4

No not really, just make markerlights easier to use and drop FWs down to 9 pts each and they're fine. Fluff wise firewarriors do well because of Pathfinders (markerlights), no need to change that. Suits should be BS4 as standard though, you'd think that those massise chunks of metal would have some targeting equipment somewhere in there.

Shas'o Brightsword
01-08-2009, 23:39
Well i think since the specilize in shooting they would be better at than average. and i agree with the bs 4 crisis suits.

squeekenator
02-08-2009, 00:26
Well i think since the specilize in shooting they would be better at than average.

Imperial Guardsmen specialise in shooting too. They have BS3. You could say that Shoota Boyz specialise in shooting, but they don't get BS4, either. Fire Warriors don't have that much training or combat experience and their targeting gear only makes up for being naturally poor shots.

Shas'o Brightsword
02-08-2009, 00:33
ahhh you got me lol you make a strong point!

kazkal
02-08-2009, 03:27
At bs 3.. Fire warriors just seem to not do even close to as good as they seem..

With the BS increase.. it would cost more points per unit, which will lack on rest of the army..

Or at least.. make marker lights BS 4 for just themselves so they can actually hit..

Rail rifles.. melta something.. would be wonderful if base fire warrior squads could have 1 per 6 fire warriors or 1 per squad.

To me.. every unit in the tau army is fine.. except fire warriors that just feel lacking every game.


Didn't marines points get dropped? so Tau remaining 12 pts with 4 BS doesn't seem too bad since they have little to no close combat capability





-Maybe they could make it so you could have 1 vetern unit with BS 4 or Marker Drone who Fires Before the Fire Warriors to increase their BS to 4...

Shas'o Brightsword
02-08-2009, 03:58
veterans are crisis suits not fire warriors

shaso_iceborn
03-08-2009, 02:51
Didn't marines points get dropped? so Tau remaining 12 pts with 4 BS doesn't seem too bad since they have little to no close combat capability




-Maybe they could make it so you could have 1 vetern unit with BS 4 or Marker Drone who Fires Before the Fire Warriors to increase their BS to 4...

Pathfinders are 12 pnts FW 10....personally and compared to newer codices I think they should be 8 pnts or stay at 10 and get photon and emp for free


they already get a bs4 veteren unit if you take a ethereal with honor guard

as far as the drone I would prefer a army wide rule of d3 free markerlight shots a turn on any enemy unit/s

I would also like to se o'shava get eternal warrior and FnP almost every new SC gets it

Shas'o Brightsword
03-08-2009, 04:04
i want more kroot

some more depth i really dont like the sting wings

Charistoph
03-08-2009, 05:43
i want more kroot

some more depth i really dont like the sting wings

Would you prefer Vulture Kroot or Vespid with the following changes?

AS increased to 4+ to account for their natural environment creating natural carapace armor.
Attacks raised to 2 to account for their extra speed.
Attacks classified as Rending.

As for Heavy Support, move Sniper Drones to a Drone option, and bring back Krootox Herds that don't require a massive Kroot presence (like previous Codex had).

Shas'o Brightsword
03-08-2009, 05:54
vulture kroot so you can send them in to cover your main kroot assault force and or distract the enemy so less shots fired at my poor kroot with basically 0 armor.

Biosystems
04-06-2010, 18:10
Ive always found that the tau tanks don't live for more than 4 turns :P