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Sappysid101
16-07-2009, 16:49
Hi I was wondering if any uses or has used Dragon Ogre Shaggoths in there WoC armies? I want to know because I like the looks and stats on them wanted to know how they perform. Note that this includes the specail character Kholek.

Thanks for reading and i hope you can help :D

Kerill
16-07-2009, 17:17
Kholek-useful, otherwise they are pretty poor

Sappysid101
16-07-2009, 18:13
Any particular reason or just genarally bad?

PeG
16-07-2009, 19:13
The main reason is that there are other choices that are better. Kholek is good and he is really nasty if your opponent is playing skaven. The main problem with him is to protect him since he is a large target and cant join units. With WoC standards his save is moderate.

Griffery
16-07-2009, 21:00
I love kholek, and he has helped me out in alot of different situations. I am not too sure about Shaggoths because I have only ued them a couple of times, but what I have found is that the lack of saves is somewaht annoying. The 5T and 6W is great, but enough shooting might be able to take one down before it even gets into combat. I would stick with 2 spawns or a hellcannon or something else. But as for Kholek, you can't get much better of a CC lord than him, except for Archaon.

Sappysid101
16-07-2009, 23:09
I was thinking that if i feilded Nurgle sorcerers and hoped on the regen save i might get past the shooting weakness. (Assuming I can get the cast off after rolling the spell :S) but anyway thanks for all the advice. Oh and does Kholeks Heavy armour stack with the scaly skiin save? IE a 2+ save?

Spirit
17-07-2009, 00:44
Yes it will stack, scaly skin is treated exactly like any other armour save (look up it's entry in the BrB)

Griffery
17-07-2009, 02:23
Yes it does stack, as Spirit said, and also with the 6 tough and 8 wounds he is one tough cookie to kill. I have found that his herald of the tempest is great for taking out enemy war machines or other shooting units. I play vamps regularly and I just used it on his blood knights whenever possible and that helped out with killing one of his nasty units, even though he was just able to re-raise them. It is great basically get D6 S6 free hits on your opponent.

AramilSairSianontel
17-07-2009, 08:12
I would say Shaggoths are pretty good-terror causing monsters, armour save against missiles of lower str, great str themselves, great-looking models, so yeah i would go for them if i played WOC using the other rare slot to field a hellcannon

Lord Khabal
17-07-2009, 08:19
Shaggoths - No
Kholek - Yes

urien
17-07-2009, 09:18
apart from hellcannon there's nothing better in rare choices, i dunno what's your meta but in my location he's great

Kerill
17-07-2009, 12:53
Any particular reason or just genarally bad?

i) They are very expensive
ii) They are more expensive than 3 dragon ogres- which have far more attacks, far more wounds, all they lack is the terror (although they have higher US for fear) and the pivoting ability.
iii) They die very easily to bolt throwers (large target), cannons and even small missile fire. Unlike many similar monsters it has no regen save/ward save against such attacks.
iv) They do not have enough attacks to take on an infantry block, and can fluff easily against cavalry and lose
v) They aren't stubborn or unbreakable mean they can easily be broken.

Also they compare very poorly to similar creatures in other army books.

Makaber
17-07-2009, 13:06
I've been won over by the Shaggoth. Sure he does less damage than the often-compared Dragon Ogres, but the Dragon Ogres are terrible flankers because it takes them ages to wheel anywhere. The Shaggoth might not be able to dish out the same amount of punishment (Tough 6 Strength 6 is, in many situations, as good as two Dragon Ogres), but it's fast and maneouverable enough to present its significant threat where you need it to be. It's not as straight forward as the Dragon Ogres, but a lot more tactically flexible.

I like them.

Lord Khabal
17-07-2009, 13:23
Shaggoths are suport units. and very expensive too!

So in 3000+ points games maybe. but around the 2000 points mark you should invest in chaos knights

Spirit
17-07-2009, 15:52
apart from hellcannon there's nothing better in rare choices, i dunno what's your meta but in my location he's great

If he is the best choice of all the rares other than hellcannon, take the hell cannon or none at all.

decker_cky
17-07-2009, 16:00
With the hellcannon pretty much automatically giving up half VPs, I think the Shaggoth is better than the hellcannon. Spawn and the war altar are solid choices though.

Maw
17-07-2009, 16:47
Yes based on the model is amazing :P

dwarfhold13
17-07-2009, 17:12
it kinda seems to me that its just a more expensive giant with a little bit of a save.. can be harder hitting though.. i love the model.. actually don't play chaos but bought the model anyway just to paint :)
Jon

decker_cky
17-07-2009, 19:04
Very different from a giant. The difference between MV6 and MV7 is pretty important, but a giant is all about holding up units, though it has the potential to defeat most anything. Shaggoths are about hitting hard, and can crack open most any opponent. Shaggoths are just too expensive for what they do.

Agreed on the beautiful models though. I use one on occasion for that reason alone. I haven't found them to be worth their points, but they're not useless.

The_Dragon_Rising
17-07-2009, 19:59
I use one in a very elitist army which relies on hitting a block and killing it. In this case the speed and manueverability work well and many of his downsides can be reduces by combining him with another unit; not the best unit if you want to play competitivly but definatly not bad.

decker_cky
17-07-2009, 21:38
I use one in a very elitist army which relies on hitting a block and killing it. In this case the speed and manueverability work well and many of his downsides can be reduces by combining him with another unit; not the best unit if you want to play competitivly but definatly not bad.

Pretty much spot on. For combining charges, a shaggoth is very nice. 40mm bases sometimes don't work so well for that because of maximizing models in base to base, so charging a block of marauders with some dragon ogres probably results in a single corner to corner dragon ogre. The shaggoth is more likely to sneak a flank and even from the front combines with other units much better.

Not a great unit, but they can be decently effective. Afterall....it's a 300 pt unit that needs to support something else.

Kalec
18-07-2009, 06:25
If you want to sneak in something to deal a whole lot of damage on minimal frontage, use a chariot. If you want a bunch of high S attacks, use dragon ogres. Use a shaggoth if you want a poor mix of these.

Dag
19-07-2009, 07:37
its fun charging 18 warriors with gw's with a shag with 2 hw and watching him kill 4-5 a t urn, no attacks back, hero is out of combat... shag wins by 1.

by next combat your knights are hitting him in the face with a lord challenge. rawr! eotg!

Spirit
20-07-2009, 21:50
its fun charging 18 warriors with gw's with a shag with 2 hw and watching him kill 4-5 a t urn, no attacks back, hero is out of combat... shag wins by 1.

by next combat your knights are hitting him in the face with a lord challenge. rawr! eotg!

To be honest killing a bunch of models with low ish saves who strike last, with something that has high attacks and high strength, isnt anything special.

There are many things that can do this, usually for cheaper than a shaggoth. Which is its primary problem, within the army there are plenty thigns a that can fulfill whatever role you want the shaggoth to do, for cheap.

Witchblade
20-07-2009, 23:20
its fun charging 18 warriors with gw's with a shag with 2 hw and watching him kill 4-5 a t urn, no attacks back, hero is out of combat... shag wins by 1.

I'll humour this one.

Let's assume the Shaggoth charges and someone has been stupid enough to give the warriors great weapons without MoK or shields.

Shag directs 2 attacks at champion and 4 at unit. Champion and 2.22 warriors die. One warrior strikes back and deals 0.67 wounds to the Shag. CR: +1 outnumber; +2 ranks; +1 banner VS 3 wounds => warriors win combat by 1 point.

In real situations where the warriors have a proper mark and equipment (halberds, war banner, maybe MoN/MoK) it gets a lot worse for the Shag still, especially in subsequent rounds.

Althwen
21-07-2009, 10:10
i) They are very expensive
ii) They are more expensive than 3 dragon ogres- which have far more attacks, far more wounds, all they lack is the terror (although they have higher US for fear) and the pivoting ability.
iii) They die very easily to bolt throwers (large target), cannons and even small missile fire. Unlike many similar monsters it has no regen save/ward save against such attacks.
iv) They do not have enough attacks to take on an infantry block, and can fluff easily against cavalry and lose
v) They aren't stubborn or unbreakable mean they can easily be broken.

Also they compare very poorly to similar creatures in other army books.



QFT


Get an extra knight unit for the same points, is my advice.

Irish1983
23-07-2009, 23:39
So no one likes having a fast moving terror model that CAN take 2-3 bolt thrower hits? What armies do you people play against because last time I checked terror was not something to scoff at.

They are expensive for what they can do, and unfortunately they removed the option to mark them. I have to deal with one every now and then from a few WoC players in my community. Its not a model you can just ignore, and its small enough that if you do its just gonna get to your flanks and start mauling its way to the center.

One more point: 50mm base size...

decker_cky
23-07-2009, 23:50
Terror is something to scoff at. Shaggoths would be wonderful as they stand at 200 pts. But they REALLY aren't worth anywhere near the points you pay. They can be used well, but you really have to work with them.

And they're no more resilient to bolt throwers than a giant. ;)

Irish1983
24-07-2009, 04:42
I dont think he is say more cost effective or possibly even more reliable than a chaos giant. I just think he is infact very useful if not "the best choice for the points". Also as stated several times already the model is just awesome, and you shouldnt over look the fact that if your into your army you usauly play with more tenacity. I play no where near as hard with my beasts/minotaur army as I do with my Goblins.

boardbox
24-07-2009, 04:51
Well on a unit by unit basis I think I'll agree that there are better things than a shaggoth but I still like taking one.

He serves as a great missile magnet with the group I play with and I like anything that draws fire away from my knights.

Havock
24-07-2009, 05:01
Speaking of giants: The ASF giant is, IMHO, a better buy than the shaggoth :p

Isabel
24-07-2009, 06:48
i) They are very expensive
ii) They are more expensive than 3 dragon ogres- which have far more attacks, far more wounds, all they lack is the terror (although they have higher US for fear) and the pivoting ability.
iii) They die very easily to bolt throwers (large target), cannons and even small missile fire. Unlike many similar monsters it has no regen save/ward save against such attacks.
iv) They do not have enough attacks to take on an infantry block, and can fluff easily against cavalry and lose
v) They aren't stubborn or unbreakable mean they can easily be broken.

Also they compare very poorly to similar creatures in other army books.

i) As they should be

ii) Dragon ogres cannot move through difficult terrain even close to as easily as a Shaggoth and pivoting is a major ability of monsters. Warhammer fantasy is often won in the movement phase. Compairing these two as if they were charging an infantry unit head on in the middle of an open field... sure the D. Ogres are better, but that's not how you use a shaggoth. These two units have differant roles in an army. The smaller base size of a shaggoth is also an advantage.

iii) Use terrrain. Any monster will die easily to bolt throwers and cannons if you run them towards it with a bullseye on it's chest.

iv) This isnt the correct way to use the unit in question. If you are just running him off by himself into units then of course he's going to die. He has the maneuverability to shadow other units and assist flank very easily, much more easily than any other unit we have aside from characters.

v) He should have gotten stubborn in my opinion but oh well. Its never really made any major impact in any game I've played with it.


I agree on paper he doesnt look that efficient but I think he fills a niche in the WoC army that we dont have many options for. You just need to be a little extra careful with his deployment and movement.

geldedgoat
24-07-2009, 07:49
@Isabel: So what kind of army works best with a Shaggoth? Infantry? Cavalry? Balanced? All of the above? I'd love to get a Shaggoth in my infantry list, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to use it effectively.

Irish1983
24-07-2009, 13:44
The quick answer is not alone. As most have posted its not gonna kill infantry and hang arround do to SCR by itself. I always say "try" to go balanced theme armies aside.

mdiscala
24-07-2009, 17:32
Im liking that this isn't cut and dry, "Don't take a Shaggoth." I love the model and plan on using him. I guess as a flanker.

Irish1983
24-07-2009, 23:46
he does that job very well being US 6 :).