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Leviathan2009
17-07-2009, 04:36
Hello everyone, I am a current 40K player and I am thinking about doing a fantasy army on a budget, expecially since I found out one of my neighbors plays Tomb Kings.

It has been about 6 years since I have been involved with fantasy, so I am looking to put together a good size force for not a lot of money. To do this I was thinking about using the battleforce box as a start and going from there.

Since I do not know too much about the specifics of fantasy my play style is adaptable. I know the basics and I am stuck between Dwarfs and Lizardmen.

It seems that Lizardmen are quite versatile and strong in the magic phase while Dwarfs excel at range and are very tough in combat, and are good at stopping opponents magic.

So really my question to everyone is which battleforce has the better "bang for your buck"?

The Dwarfs or the Lizardmen?

It seems like each box can not go wrong especially with the different play styles, but when I look at army lists here it seems that the Sarus warriors on Cold Ones do see too much use in army lists.

Thanks for any and all help with this.

lcfr
17-07-2009, 04:52
Only a handful of fantasy armies appeal to me, and Lizardmen just isn't one of them. That said, Dwarfs were my first fantasy army and still are my #1s. They can be a little more versatile than people give them credit for, but even playing just a balanced playlist still makes for fun games.

Dwarfs are tough and damn reliable...so reliable that after enough time, anything that isn't a Dwarf just won't cut it (I play BoC, WoC, and am in the midst of assembling my Ogres...nothing handles like Dwarfs!). T4, LD9, lots of armour, and never having to worry about how to field just the right amount of magic keeps things simple too.

Ultimately it's hard to accurately compare Lizards and Dwarfs (or any 2 armies imo), so you have to take into account what kind of playstyle you can see yourself utilizing. Dwarfs often (but not always!) sit back and rely on their artillery and missile troops to draw the enemy close and then give whatever's left a sound thrashing by our rock hard infantry blocks. Hopefully some lizzie players will chime in on why you might want to buy something without a beard. Good luck!

DDogwood
17-07-2009, 04:53
The main problem I have with Dwarfs is that they are the slowest army in a game based on maneuver. That means that the optimal strategy for Dwarfs is to sit in the deployment zone and shoot, shoot, and shoot. In other words, a good Dwarf army can be run by a trained monkey, which is unfortunate since their minis and background are quite nice.

On the other hand, Dwarfs are definitely the "more bang for your buck" army because you can get the Battle for Skull Pass minis very cheaply.

Peachtacular
17-07-2009, 05:00
I think Lizardmen would be much more interesting. Dwarves have a static play style, while Lizards are more dynamic. Playing Dwarves may be too much like playing 40k : sit back and shoot. Jump out of this box and embrace the full game of whfb with lizards!

The lizardmen battalion is very useful. Although, so is the dwarven battalion. I think a lizardmen army overall will be a bit cheaper to construct. They have more plastic models.

Ultimate Life Form
17-07-2009, 05:01
And thus the Ultimate Lizardplayer Form chimes in...:rolleyes:

I'm quite the opposite, I hate the Dwarves (kill them all!), but I'm a faithful disciple of the Old Ones.

I think you categorized the armies pretty well. As for the Batallion Boxes, I dunno about Dwarves, but Lizardmen get a pretty decent starter army. 20 Saurus Warriors are tough as nails and can be pretty scary, especially with Spears. Skinks are quick and nimble and you can never have too many of them. I advise using the blowpipe option first. Cold One Riders are insanely tough, if a little expensive pointswise. The only thing to consider is the Temple Guard which will be of little use really without a Slann and even then, 10 just isn't enough. You should decide if you want the Oldblood or the Slann as your Lord option before buying the box, but since you get the Temple Guard in the box practically for free, at least you won't lose much if you end up not using them.

zan77
17-07-2009, 05:06
lizardmen are a great army and very adaptable. they can go magic heavy with a slann or engine of the gods or have an oldblood on carny for good CC. the lizardmen can take many different units to adapt your army in many ways.

Condottiere
17-07-2009, 08:33
It's probably cheaper to get hold of Dwarven miniatures, if you can source second hand starter figures. I suggest you borrow the two army books and read them, before really investing your time and money in one or the other, since LM and Dwarves are differently played.

Staurikosaurus
17-07-2009, 09:11
And thus the Ultimate Lizardplayer Form chimes in...:rolleyes:


Are you really :eyebrows:

lol

Lizards and dwarfs have a lot of similarities in their playstyles. I'd say go with whichever army you like the looks of more. Note that dwarfs will get more support more often however.

GodSlayer
17-07-2009, 16:30
Lizards and dwarfs have a lot of similarities in their playstyles.

I'm not that sure... The main advantage of dwarfs are still the good long range shooting (powerfull and precise/reliable). The hand to hand combat is a big plus once the ennemy gets to you.

Dwarfs can be only manoeuvrable if you throw in a handfull of units (Runes, Miners, Gyros and the *gasp* anvil) And when you do, you sacrifice some gunpower.

I'd still choose them as my first army, anytime. But getting the most out of them might need a little work. Not as much as, say, Tomb Kings (or so I heard). Just don't fall into the Gunline trap... We don't need more haters more than we have now.

Leviathan2009
17-07-2009, 17:23
Thanks for the help with this everyone.

While it looks like Dwarfs would be a good starter army, I just rememebred about 15 minutes ago that I stll have my WHFB starter set from 5th edition (with Lizardmen in it) sitting at my parents house in a case somewhere.

So if I can find that, it gives me a large block of Sarus Warriors, some Skinks and I *might* have the old 5th edition Slann model in there also. If I find those that would give me a pretty good base to start my army off with. I may try to get to the local hobby store this weekend and flip through the store copy of the Lizardmen codex and see how many points I would have as a starter army and go from there.

Slyphor
17-07-2009, 23:31
If the 5th edition Lizardmen are what make you choose them, then whoopie! But you'll have to invest in some better looking models later on. Those old hunchbacks are not the most attractive things GW ever modeled. Chose safety and dwarves or ride bareback and chose lizzies!

Ancre
18-07-2009, 00:03
Oh my I love the 5th edition lizardmen models ! Lucky you ! You might end up with skinks with bows,an option GW took away in favor of the blowpipes. But you can probably proxy them for blowpipes-wielding skink at the beginning, and convert them after.

Staurikosaurus
18-07-2009, 00:40
I'm not that sure... The main advantage of dwarfs are still the good long range shooting (powerfull and precise/reliable). The hand to hand combat is a big plus once the ennemy gets to you.

Dwarfs can be only manoeuvrable if you throw in a handfull of units (Runes, Miners, Gyros and the *gasp* anvil) And when you do, you sacrifice some gunpower.

I'd still choose them as my first army, anytime. But getting the most out of them might need a little work. Not as much as, say, Tomb Kings (or so I heard). Just don't fall into the Gunline trap... We don't need more haters more than we have now.

I didn't mean it as a literal translation. However, both armies are tough, have excellent leadership and can hold their own in hand to hand, even against the big guns. If you follow that Lizardmen magic = Dwarf shooting than the armies play very similarly. The only difference being the shortness of the dwarfs (:p) and the speed options of the lizardmen. As a result I tend to view them as played similarly.

@ Leviathan, let us know your final decision!

SuperArchMegalon
18-07-2009, 01:54
Well, I play Dwarfs (see avatar). I have always loved Dwarfs and I especially like collecting and painting them more than my other main army. That said, I chose Dwarfs as my second because in choosing Dwarfs you're limiting yourself from learning one of the most important parts of the game: movement. Choose LM if you're interested in learning all phases of the game. I don't view Dwarfs as a great starter army because of this.

Leviathan2009
18-07-2009, 03:19
Oh my I love the 5th edition lizardmen models ! Lucky you ! You might end up with skinks with bows,an option GW took away in favor of the blowpipes. But you can probably proxy them for blowpipes-wielding skink at the beginning, and convert them after.

I appreciate the feeling there. I do not know what I have, but I know that there are skinks with bows in there.

It looks like tomorrow I am going to flip through the army books and try to make a decision.

I am just trying to decide between shooting with Dwarfs (and their War Machines) or if I would prefer to use the Lizardmen. I do like the look of Sarus Warriors on Cold One's

Ancre
18-07-2009, 06:07
If I remember well, you have 20 saurus with hand weapon and shield, and 20 skinks with short bow. You might get a few other things, but I don't know what. (Oh, and you'll have bretonnians and a 5th edition rulebook ! )

I'll say go lizardmen but I'm biased, I play lizardmen :D play whatever you find the better looking (or start the two ? ). Good luck with the game ! =)

Leviathan2009
19-07-2009, 01:46
If I remember well, you have 20 saurus with hand weapon and shield, and 20 skinks with short bow. You might get a few other things, but I don't know what. (Oh, and you'll have bretonnians and a 5th edition rulebook ! )

I'll say go lizardmen but I'm biased, I play lizardmen :D play whatever you find the better looking (or start the two ? ). Good luck with the game ! =)

Thanks for letting me know approximatley what came in the set. I know at the time I purchased a few more units for each army, so I should have at least two blocks of Sarus Warriors and some extra Skinks.

And just as a random question, does anyone know approximatley how many points come in the Lizardmen Battallion?

I was not able to get to the local store to flip through the codex today unfortunatley.

Ultimate Life Form
19-07-2009, 01:57
20 Saurus Warriors - 250 pts if you take full command options, more if you take spears (+1pt/model)

12 Skinks assuming Skink Skirmishers, it's over 80, especially with (unneeded) Champion

10 Temple Guard - 195 pts with full Command, can in addition have magic banners/items worth up to another 75 pts.

8 Saurus Cavalry - 330 with full command, may have magic banner for up to 50 pts.

= potential 1000 pts - you get half your army in this single box. I think it's a great deal.

Leviathan2009
19-07-2009, 02:40
20 Saurus Warriors - 250 pts if you take full command options, more if you take spears (+1pt/model)

12 Skinks assuming Skink Skirmishers, it's over 80, especially with (unneeded) Champion

10 Temple Guard - 195 pts with full Command, can in addition have magic banners/items worth up to another 75 pts.

8 Saurus Cavalry - 330 with full command, may have magic banner for up to 50 pts.

= potential 1000 pts - you get half your army in this single box. I think it's a great deal.

Thank you very much for that quick breakdown!

It is looking like I am going to be picking up the battleforce, a box of Temple Guard, and few Skink priest's to get a nice sized army together.

Slyphor
19-07-2009, 05:12
...And Lizardmen take the day! Beardy runts all over shed a single tear into their ale while the jungle rings out with the screams of fresh spawns.

Leviathan2009
20-07-2009, 01:14
After going through what I have, there is a pretty good starter force there.

32 Sarus Warriors with shields
32 Skinks
1 Slann

Based off the points that this gives me, it is not a bad start.

InsideReticle
20-07-2009, 02:04
Dwarfs are hella boring to play... hardly any moving and it's near impossible to get your opponent where you want them.

Ozorik
20-07-2009, 16:51
That depends entirely on the sort of list you run. Not all Dwarf armies are static gunlines. Dwarf infantry can be amongst the fastest in the game with the right runes and the anvil but people just think 'gunline' and another dull army is born.

Voodoo Boyz
21-07-2009, 02:50
That depends entirely on the sort of list you run. Not all Dwarf armies are static gunlines. Dwarf infantry can be amongst the fastest in the game with the right runes and the anvil but people just think 'gunline' and another dull army is born.

That is not true at all.

Dwarfs are a highly flawed army due to inherent design mechanics GW has mandated that they have. As such, I can't recommend against them enough.

Years and years ago, I had to pick between these same two factions to start the game, I am sad I went with Dwarfs. They are so cool, the mini's are fantastic even, but playing them in a semi-competitive enviornment is like banging your head against a brick wall for hours on end. When you make a list that wins, it will not be any fun to play. :(

Condottiere
21-07-2009, 06:07
Dwarves are cool, but they suffer from top heavy/short legs, but are allowed to always march. A focussed force that's allowed to close in does lots of damage.