View Full Version : 2500pt tournament list

17-07-2009, 19:10
Hi guise,
I should be entering a local tournament soon (about the 22nd August) in France (yes they play warhammer there too ;))
2500pts, no special characters, and über armies will be refused (or so they say, I bet their friends will manage to get away with some nasty tricks)
My Bretonnian army is of a decent size, and is mostly painted.
I've sort of heard that Bretonnians in 7th have gone all weak and such, so rather than go for the typical autopilot full cavalry, I want to try something completely different.

tl;dr = rate this uncommon tournament army plz.

grail vow
shield, dragons claw, dragon lance

Paladin - Battle standard bearer
grail vow
Armour of the noble star (the -1 to hit one)

grail vow
orcbane shield, virtue of confidence

Sorceress, lvl2, dispel scoll

Sorceress, lvl2, silver mirror

6 Knights of the realm
full command

6 Knights of the realm
full command

8 Knights Errant
full command
Errantry banner

12 Archers

12 Archers

12 Archers
skirmishers, full command.

12 Men at arms
full command

12 Men at arms
full command

12 Men at arms
full command

1 Grail reliquary
20 pilgrims (in total)

6 mounted yeomen
musician, shields

6 mounted yeomen
musician, shields

2 Trebuchets
master carpenter

I have no idea how this could fare, it should certainly seem imposing with so many models, not that any of them are any good though.

The yeomen are supposed to support the knights of the realm...

The peasants (all of them) are just to hang around at the back of the table, in the hope no one will notice them much, and therefore claim 2 table quarters :D

The sorceresses are to attempt a couple of life lore spells, and hopefully to do enough dispelling to keep a bit of the army intact, I'm not expecting much though, the silver mirror always seems to sting, and even though it's one use, people are sometimes hesitant with the next spell.

Now, the 4 paladins on pegasii
this is hopefully the fun part. Rather than the all too common unit of 3 pegasus knights, this is 4 independant characters, kitted out to **** of the adversary as much as possible.
Hopefully they will be able to swoop in to aid the knights, combined flank charges, prevent a bit of marching and whatnot.
Hopefully their equipement will help.

So what do you think?
Is it totally worthless? should I just forget it and go for a full cavalry force?
Do you have any ideas that could fit, maybe a prophetess as a lord choice, maybe having knights on foot to help the (spit) peasants?

17-07-2009, 19:47
now i'm not too sure, but in less then 3k, brettonians can only have 5 characters, one being the bsb. and you have one too many, so your list seems to be a bit illegal

17-07-2009, 19:50
OMG O_o you're right.


18-07-2009, 13:29
Well, it's certainly a different list. I think that the rise of the Big Four newer armies (HE, DE, DoC and VC) has cast an undeserved shadow on Brets. Our knight lances are still top-notch units, and we can still be very competitive in tournaments even against the big boys. It can be helpful to try new lists to see if you've come across something new, and I recommend you give your list a few spins to see how it goes, but I predict you're going to find it fairly weak for the following reasons:

6 man knight units, like your KotR are not hammer units. Because it's so important for Brets to break their enemies on the charge, the extra attacks gained from a nine man unit are very important. Taking a six man unit or two isn't a bad idea, but only if you understand that they ideally need to support a charge by a larger lance, or at the very least combine with a second six man unit in order to wreak enough havok that you break through the enemy and avoid a prolonged fight (which Brets will start to lose after the first round.) I think finding points to increase one of those two KotR units to nine knights should be your first order of business. A six man unit really shouldn't have a standard, either: you're just asking to lose it. A 9 man unit probably doesn't need a musician (unless you have spare points), as you should plan on winning your fights by a decent margin, and the unit should never be fleeing.

Next, you suggest that you're going to leave your peasants behind to seize table quarters. I hope you don't include the Grail Reliquary in that count, as it can actually be a very effective unit to march up the middle and hold up enemy large blocks for a long period of time. Personally, if I was going to use a grail reliquary, I'd max out the peasants at 30. Nothing's better than taking your enemy's best unit's best attack right on the chin and then hammering back with some hatred-induced WS2 clobbering.

Two trebuchets and 36 archers form a nice core for the Bret version of a gunline. Unfortunately, a Bret gunline isn't very good. Trebuchets tend to drop lots of stones in the middle of nowhere (unless you're playing a dwarf army castled around a hill and their warmachines.) Peasant bowmen can mop up lightly armored flanking units but tend to do very little in areas where it counts. Unless you have a hill in your deployment zone, they'll either wind up behind other units, or take up the spaces where you want your knights to go. Taking a larger skirmishing unit which has more freedom to deployed at the expense of the fixed-place archers isn't a bad idea.

The men-at-arms units are just too small to be of any use. Sure, they're cheap units that you can pretty much guarantee that you'll at least contest your own quarters, but you're spending a lot on full command on units that will not survive an initial charge. Combining two of them into a 24 man unit will save you some points on the second command group, and give you enough ranks to keep them in a fight should something get to them. Or you could march that larger unit up with your knights and the GR and see them provide a bit of assistance (even if it's just as pincushions). The third unit is probably going to be a waste, and you'll wish you either dropped it, or removed the command, lowered the models to 10 guys, and hid them in the first forest you find in order to contest a quarter. I'd never pay for the Yeoman upgrade (12 points for an extra attack, and a leadership boost you never want to use?), but FC is good for the soul.

The shields on the mounted yeomen are kind of a points sink. If you have extra points laying about when you're finished with your list, it's fine to include them, otherwise they're best left out. Yeomen aren't there to stick around in a fight anyways.

As far as your heroes go, I've never been a fan of taking the BSB on a pegasus, or giving him magical equipment instead of a banner. The BSB (and most paladins) should be used within your knight units to buff them, instead of charging off willy-nilly. Virtue of Duty and a Warbanner would give that undersized (8 knights, and no characters on a horse) unit of Knights Errant a really nice kick. Speaking of Paladins, a Lord only costs 50 points more, in exchange for significantly greater butt-kicking power.

Personally, I've never been that much of a fan of the Wyrmlance: the Lance of Artois is a lot better for only 5 more points. The fact that you're using an Orcbane shield suggests that you're facing a lot of O&G forces, though, which may make that S3 breath weapon a lot more useful than I might suppose. The Virtue of Confidence should really cost 10 points more and come with the Gauntlet of the Duel, because you should never take it without the Gauntlet.

If you don't want to put at least one hero on a horse, put a damsel on one. Your KE unit needs to bulk up to nine figures, and the MR is much more valuable on knights than on serfs.

I hope I've been at least a little bit helpful. Bigger M@A units, 9 man lances, and Warbanner/Virtue of Duty. Great stuff.

18-07-2009, 20:49
Have you been helpful, Alcibiades?
Hell yes ! Thanks a lot for all your input.
It seems like this army is going to need a lot of tweaking.
I must explain a couple of points though;

I always put full command in all my knightly units, because it feels more Bretonnian to me, indeed, in the last tournament i went to there was a player whose only banner was the obligatory BSB, not very chevalresque IMHO.

However you are right, peasants (spit) don't need banners. or musicians for that matter :)
I will keep the unit champions though, their stats are just so much better, it's not just the +1Att, it's also the Ld6 :D
I gave the skirmishing unit of archers full command, mostly because I'm using the Bertrand the brigand models; yeah kind of Robin hood and his merry men kind of thing.:wtf:

I always thought that shields on the mounted yeomon was OK, it gives them a 5+ save for cheap, which has saved them from the odd arrow in the past.
I get the feeling you are right though, my yeomen NEVER rally when they choose to flee from a charge, so no point in wasting points.

I'm not too bothered about trebuchets, I usually do OK with warmachines (I used to play chaos dwarfs) One must not expect too much from them, that's all, and a lucky hit can take out overexpensive/overequipped enemy characters :D and seeing the other player's face when it happens is priceless.

Now the knight units indeed only ever work together, in fact, I have so much faith in my dice rolling that i will always multicharge enemy units (usually 3 knight units at once)
because otherwise they don't break and flee.

However, apparently there are more and more stubborn units around, and this is where the weakening of Bretonnia is supposed to be: we can't break them on the charge anymore ! because all the +3 ranks, outnumbering, banner, BSB, virtue of duty, and maybe 3 kills on the charge (and I bet the horses got those kills, never the knights with their floppy lances) just won't make them budge anymore.

Which is why I'm trying to steer away from the usual full cavalry army.
Maybe GW thinks that we should be bringing up men at arms units to flank charge the enemies cought up by our lance formations? lolz.

Now all these pegasii and the equipment:
In favour of the BSB on the pegasus: They'll never run him down and capture his banner! Well, it shouldn't happen very often.
Giving him a magic banner leaves the guy rather unprotected, and also makes him a prime target, even more that usual.
I very rarely give my BSB a magic banner, cos everyone and their grandma tries to get as many hits in as possible against him. Especially when they are going to lose the combat anyway (a kind of petty vengeance thing)

The orcbane shield is mostly for the lulz. No one is going to expect it and if it works it'll be priceless.
I'm not too worried about the Virtue of Confidence, opponents usually take up the challenge with their unit champ anyway. I do get lucky with overkill though, well sometimes.
Aaaah the Wyrmlance, it's another personal fave, it's just so much fun being able to use a flamer in fantasy battle. yeah it is weak, and doesn't usually kill much, but still ;)
also flaming attacks just in case! (like that treeman is going to be bothered :rolleyes:)
The Lance of Artenois seems good, but i have rarely used it, a paladin only gets 3 attacks, so it seems like low probability of getting a killing blow in there.

I was (and still am) considering the Virtue of heroism (killing blow against large targets) because in 2500points there just has to be some monstrous mounts and giants, would it work on the screaming skul catapult??.
I mean, str 3 killing blow against a dragon? that would be WIN.
Another thing I'm considering is the Horn of Fredemond; if I put their flyers down for a turn, it helps my flyers get the upper hand (i think)

Most people will take a lord character, which is why I would have wanted to avoid it. I mean everyone and their cat is going to expect a lord on hippogriff aren't they?
But would that be efficient on the battlefield, or just end up being an expensive missile magnet?

Oh and another thing to remember, is that total optimised uber lists will be refused. or so they say...
OK, thanks again, I'll go and change my list, and come back with changes.

20-07-2009, 14:21
So the more I think about it,the more I like your idea of a Peg Lord with the Virtue of Confidence. I tend to find Large Targets a bit more prevalent than scary multiwound characters that our knights can't beat in combat (that is, Vampire Lords and... that's it.)

Unfortunately, the screaming skull catapult, like every other warmachine, isn't a large target. Against Tomb Kings, I think only the Bone Giant is a large target. The Casket of Souls might make its Priest count as a large target, but the problem with that isn't killing the thing, it's getting there without losing half your army.

I'm still pretty convinced that the Yeoman upgrade for Men at Arms isn't worth its salt (same thing with the Master Craftsman for the Treb), but if you do take a large block of them (20+), you might as well spring for the banner, at least. The only thing those guys have going for them is static res, and it's not like the enemy can capture them. As far as upping the leadership goes, if you're dragging them up the field a little, they can use your knight's leadership. And if they're ambushed while in the rear by anything more dangerous than, say, an eagle, one point of leadership probably isn't going to change the fact that you'll be testing on two pretty quickly.

In other news, I wish I had a set of Bertrand figurines, and I wish even more that they had rules for 'em in our book. Would it really kill the flavor Bretonnia to have one decent peasant in the whole country?

20-07-2009, 20:07
You mean virtue of heroism, right? the one that gives killing blow against large targets?
yup, just like the spanish inquisition: no one expects it.
and you're right, the only thing that usually worries me is the blood dragon vampire lord on zombie dragon with some wierd book.

Yeah I like Betrand et al, I really liked them back in v5, but of course when special characters were allowed, Bertrand was pretty sub par !

I think I'm trying to fit too many themes into a single army here, I should try decent magic (prophetess and 2 damsels) or multi flying heroes, or as much infantry as possible, but I get the feeling I won't get them all to fit in 2500points.

and then there are fun things to do with knights, other than max out the heroes with obvious kit-sets (some setups must come as bundles)
I like the man of the purebreed quite a bit, quite often the horses hit more than the knights, so Str4 could be good.
in fact all those magic items that 'buff' the whole unit, rather than just one guy.

Should I even bother with magic at all, I mean what's the worst that could possibly happen?
If I get rid of my damsels, I could fit in another pegasus paladin and thereby my opponent will have spent points on antimagic for nothing !

24-07-2009, 17:43
Yeah, I meant virtue of heroism. In my army lists, I tend to write them out as (for instance) virtue of killing large targets, just to make it a little easier to figure out who is supposed to do what. As a result, all of the Audacity (Virtue of character killer), Pentinent (virtue of stubborn), Ideal (virtue of the jerk), etc. tend to blend together for me.

I think that good magic is probably the toughest to do, as our magic-users ideally should be secreted away, and their most effective spells either require line of sight, or don't work on mounted figures (Anger of the Bear could be so good, otherwise...). I've never used a prophetess, though, and so don't have much experience with Heavens, which looks to be much better than Beasts or Life. You'd really want to put her in a place where she could see, though, which tends to exclude having her give that hugely important MR to a knight unit.

I'd always keep at least one damsel with a silver mirror in the army. It's just too useful to have that dispel scroll/smack their caster item to dissuade an overly aggressive magic-using enemy. If you don't, though, you ought to have enough mobility to make sure you can hit their lines quickly enough that you don't get chewed up on the way their. I don't think an infantry heavy Bret army without casters is likely to fare well against even a moderately magic-equipped army.