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EvC
05-01-2006, 11:36
Just confirm this for me... but a High Elf Battle Standard bearer can't have a magic shield or magic bow, can he?

I take it no-one at tournaments or whatever would complain if the actual model itself had both a shield and a standard pole (in the same arm a la Crom the Conquerer)...

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 11:56
Just confirm this for me... but a High Elf Battle Standard bearer can't have a magic shield or magic bow, can he?


BSBs cannot have shields of any type, however they can have magical bows.

Major Defense
05-01-2006, 12:38
BSBs cannot have shields of any type, however they can have magical bows.

Oh, so you're saying that they can take the Swordmaster honor and use a great weapon? Not! A bow, magical or not, is NOT a one-handed weapon.



http://us.games-workshop.com/games/gaming/treasures.pdf

Q: Battle Standard Bearers cannot use weapons that require two hands or normal shields, but they have access to magic items. Can a Battle Standard Bearer be given a magical shield or a magic weapon that requires two hands?

A: No. If they cannot use the mundane version of an item, they cannot use their magic equivalent. In other words, they have to devote one hand to keep the banner up and cannot do anything else with it.

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 12:48
Oh, so you're saying that they can take the Swordmaster honor and use a great weapon?

No, I don't think I said that anywhere.


A bow, magical or not, is NOT a one-handed weapon.

All weapons in warhammer use one hand unless they have the "Requires two hands" rule. Bows do not have this rule, and no other rule prevents a BSB from using a bow.

If you don't want to use a bow on your BSB then fine, but don't impose your view of what the rules should be on everyone else.

T10
05-01-2006, 13:53
There is no rule that says that Battle Standard Bearers may not use shields* or "special" weapons. The individual army list entries imply this restriction, but it isn't clearly stated.

*) Magical - normally the character entry has access to mundane shields, but is restricted from taking it in the case of a Battle Standard upgrade.

-T10

Gorbad Ironclaw
05-01-2006, 13:56
However, every single BSB entry says they can't use shield or double handed weapons(I don't know of any exceptions at least).

And as Atrahasis says, a bow is not a two-handed weapon in the rules, and it's perfectly fine for a BSB to have one. Whatever or not you personally agree with that is different. But the rules are quite clear on it.

Crazy Harborc
05-01-2006, 19:56
Check for magic armour. I do believe more than one army list has armour that gives a 4 plus (or better) save. Then there's a ward save option for some of them.

Experience has taught me to keep my BSBs back, not out front. Sure they are a hero, but........have a bigger purpose than hacking and slashing. Hey, I'm only 11 inches away!! Reroll that dice!! Don't make me come over there!!

T10
05-01-2006, 21:47
However, every single BSB entry says they can't use shield or double handed weapons(I don't know of any exceptions at least).


That isn't quite correct.

The Battle Standard Bearer has limited access to equipment. The wording varies. Dark Elf Battle Standard Bearers may not take non-magical equipment except for the light armour, heavy armour and the sea dragon cloak. Skaven Battle Standard Bearers may not take extra weapons or a shield.

This is quite different from the "rule" that Battle Standards only carry one-handed weapons. A High Elf Battle Standard Beared does not carry a bow because he cannot choose any non-magical equipment "excpt for light, heavy or dragon armour and/or barding for his steed."

So can the Battle Standard Bearer use a magical bow? Yes. Can he use a magical shield? Yes.

But the Enchanted Shield counts as a "shield", so if the character cannot take a mundane shield, then he can't take it, right?

Well, that can't be right either. Far from all armour types are classed as light, heavy or what-ever armour. If you can only use magical versions of a mundane armour option, then these items simply cannot be used.

-T10

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 21:53
Very true - the rules concerning what equipment BSBs can take is not as cut and dried as most people believe.

The "rule" that prevents BSBs from using any type of shield comes from a Q&A, and the "rule" that a model cannot use a magical shield if they cannot use a mundane one simply doesn't exist.

Gorbad Ironclaw
05-01-2006, 22:37
The "rule" that prevents BSBs from using any type of shield comes from a Q&A, and the "rule" that a model cannot use a magical shield if they cannot use a mundane one simply doesn't exist.

It's in a Q&A, I think it's the Dark Elf one where it's asked if a Beastmaster can use Armour of Darkness; and the answer is no, he can't, since he can't use a mundane shield.

It's the only case where your required to have a specific piece of equipment to be able to take the magical version(aside from just weapons, or just armour).


And yes, I know that some(most? All?) BSB entires instead list the equipment that can be taken. I was being lazy with my first post :p

Tarax
06-01-2006, 09:26
..., and the "rule" that a model cannot use a magical shield if they cannot use a mundane one simply doesn't exist.

P.152, under Magic Armour: "A character who is not allowed to wear ordinary armour cannot be given magic armour."

After that it goes on about the types of armour, and includes Magical Shields as Magical Armour.

So, BSB who can NOT carry a shield, can NOT carry a Magical Shield.

Atrahasis
06-01-2006, 09:36
P.152, under Magic Armour: "A character who is not allowed to wear ordinary armour cannot be given magic armour."

After that it goes on about the types of armour, and includes Magical Shields as Magical Armour.

So, BSB who can NOT carry a shield, can NOT carry a Magical Shield.

You just argued from one side, and concluded on the other.

If what you say is true, then NO-ONE can use magical helms, bracers, etc, as they are never offered as mundane options.

As you say, Magical Shields are Magical Armour. Any mundane Armour option (including shields) allows any Magical Armour option (including shields). As long as the model has at least one option for armour/shield in its normal equipment, it can take any and all magical armour options.

T10
06-01-2006, 09:55
If the Battle Standard Bearer *can* take armour, he can take magical shields since they also count as armour. Your quoted text does not make provisions for explicitly disallowed types of armour.

GW may have made some ruling on this matter - if so, it is unknown to me.

By the rules, the Battle Standard Bearer has limited access to mundane equipment. His access to magical items is governed by a set of rules that gives him access to a normally unavailable category (magical standards) with an new pointslimit (unlimited) or the same magical items as a normal Hero of his base type.

-T10

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-01-2006, 11:02
From the Q&A on the GW forum (http://uk.games-workshop.com/apps/eshare.pl?do=ReadThread&BoardID=2&ID=3003347&template=uk):



Q : If a character has an armor upgrade option, but not a shield upgrade option (the DE Beastmaster in the errata for example), can he take magical shields, and/or magicl armors that are stated to include a shield (armor of darkness)
A : No


Now of course your free to disregard that if you choice, but thats the GW take on it.

ZomboCom
06-01-2006, 11:22
It's Q&Aed in the 2004 annual. I wish people would look things up first.

BSBs cannot carry shields or two handed weapons, including magical one.

Normal characters do not need the option to carry a shield to be able to carry a magical shield.

Atrahasis
06-01-2006, 12:18
Now of course your free to disregard that if you choice, but thats the GW take on it.

Since it directly contradicts all published material on the subject, yes, I choose to disregard it.

Major Defense
06-01-2006, 13:12
Since it directly contradicts all published material on the subject, yes, I choose to disregard it.

Oh that's a shocker. :rolleyes:

If we could choose disregard any contradictory rules then we'd be playing with no rules at all.

Festus
06-01-2006, 14:40
Hi

Now of course your free to disregard that if you choice, but thats the GW take on it.
No, that is not the real take on it.
It is a proposal, nothing more, nothing less.

And I think it very wise to disregard it. It is contradictory to all official material on the issue.

See the Chronicles for rules regarding Armour options. Only BSBs are disallowed from using a Shield (including magical ones). All other are free to pick.

Greetings
Festus

Major Defense
06-01-2006, 19:46
http://us.games-workshop.com/games/gaming/treasures.pdf

Q: Battle Standard Bearers cannot use weapons that require two hands or normal shields, but they have access to magic items. Can a Battle Standard Bearer be given a magical shield or a magic weapon that requires two hands?

A: No. If they cannot use the mundane version of an item, they cannot use their magic equivalent. In other words, they have to devote one hand to keep the banner up and cannot do anything else with it.



Sorry but if your pedantic **** still thinks you can use a magic bow because you found a loophole somewhere in how they worded something then good luck with your life, friend. I'll never have to turn down a game with you so happy house-ruling. Hell, I'm adding that to my first post so people can read the truth before Atrahasis whines about me oppressing him with my "views".

Crazy Harborc
06-01-2006, 20:12
IMHO, it sometimes seems that the purpose of rules is to allow those who desire to, to search for loopholes that give them unfair/special advantages no one else gets. For myself I would rather play for FUN. If I win I wnat it to NOT be because I out lawyered my opponent.

Festus
06-01-2006, 20:12
Hi

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/gaming/treasures.pdf

Q: Battle Standard Bearers cannot use weapons that require two hands or normal shields, but they have access to magic items. Can a Battle Standard Bearer be given a magical shield or a magic weapon that requires two hands?

A: No. If they cannot use the mundane version of an item, they cannot use their magic equivalent. In other words, they have to devote one hand to keep the banner up and cannot do anything else with it.



Sorry but if your pedantic **** still thinks you can use a magic bow because you found a loophole somewhere in how they worded something then good luck with your life, friend. I'll never have to turn down a game with you so happy house-ruling. Hell, I'm adding that to my first post so people can read the truth before Atrahasis whines about me oppressing him with my "views".

First things first:

Watch your French!
Consider your *violent outburst* reported...

Then again:

the quote you gave does not prove anything: It simply forbids the use of a shield or any weapon that needs two hands to use.
Only h-t-h weapons ever have the distinction of being two-handed.

While I see your point (and I even share it), there is no evidence from a rules perspective to disallow bows for BSBs.

Greetings
Festus

Festus
06-01-2006, 20:23
Hi

IMHO, it sometimes seems that the purpose of rules is to allow those who desire to, to search for loopholes that give them unfair/special advantages no one else gets. For myself I would rather play for FUN. If I win I wnat it to NOT be because I out lawyered my opponent.
You are so right!

But TBH, do you really think that it is overpowering if a BSB can be equipped with a bow? Or a shield? Hardly.

If I go to the length of modelling my BSB with a Sahimono-style banner on his back and toting a bow, I seem to like the pose and want to have it reflected in the actual game. I don't see a problem, really.

Greetings
Festus

Atrahasis
06-01-2006, 20:40
IMHO, it sometimes seems that the purpose of rules is to allow those who desire to, to search for loopholes that give them unfair/special advantages no one else gets. For myself I would rather play for FUN. If I win I wnat it to NOT be because I out lawyered my opponent.

Which is worse, to refuse to play someone because they do not subscribe to your view of what is right and proper, or to insist that they respect the rules? (This is not an attack, but an honest question).

I play for fun too, but while we're discussing rules, I'll discuss rules, and not kow-tow to someone else's perception of how to handle the situation in game.

Tarax
07-01-2006, 13:29
I was only quoting a rule from the BRB, not giving my opinion or anything.


Q: Battle Standard Bearers cannot use weapons that require two hands or normal shields, but they have access to magic items. Can a Battle Standard Bearer be given a magical shield or a magic weapon that requires two hands?

A: No. If they cannot use the mundane version of an item, they cannot use their magic equivalent. In other words, they have to devote one hand to keep the banner up and cannot do anything else with it.


This is the view I like, BSBs devoting one hand to keep the banner up and the other to wield a one-handed weapon. Although the last bit would include lances and spears (for mounted models), these are banned by the limitation of weapons and the rule I quoted.

mageith
07-01-2006, 13:44
This is the view I like, BSBs devoting one hand to keep the banner up and the other to wield a one-handed weapon. Although the last bit would include lances and spears (for mounted models), these are banned by the limitation of weapons and the rule I quoted.

I like it too. It was so obscure I didn't even have it in my files.

Ith

Flypaper
07-01-2006, 23:19
his is the view I like, BSBs devoting one hand to keep the banner up and the other to wield a one-handed weapon.
...The problem with that logic/fluff is that regular standard bearers are often allowed shields - and that the note in the rulebook specifically adresses the whole "two-handed" issue for them by stating (rough quote, I've lent my BRB to a friend! :angel: )

standard bearers are larger and tougher members of their race and can presumably handle both the banner and a shield at the same time

...one assumes that a BSB hero is generally more macho than a regimental standard bearer. ;)

Major Defense
08-01-2006, 02:59
This is the view I like, BSBs devoting one hand to keep the banner up and the other to wield a one-handed weapon. Although the last bit would include lances and spears (for mounted models), these are banned by the limitation of weapons and the rule I quoted.I was really aiming to keep this topic on the non-house-ruled answer to the question but you just blew my mind with the obviousness of the fact that a mounted BSB should be allowed a regular spear or lance! If my gaming group ever loses our collective minds and open the Pandora's box of house rules, that one will certainly be on my crazed lips.


...The problem with that logic/fluff is that regular standard bearers are often allowed shieldsIt's not fluff. It's a Q&A on the same page as some other valid rules clarifications and those magic items that were added to the official lists from the Albion campaign. I have to ask what you mean by "regular" standard bearers. Are you talking about old versions of the FB rules or how they were in real mideval warfare? The quote in the book is about unit standards and musicians being able to fight as regular troopers despite their burden. Yes, that does mean that some unit standards would have a shield, weapon and the standard but we're talking strictly about the rold of the BSB character carrying the army standard.

Flypaper
08-01-2006, 05:29
I have to ask what you mean by "regular" standard bearers. Are you talking about old versions of the FB rules or how they were in real mideval warfare?
You answered your own question - I was talking about unit standard bearers who are not characters.

we're talking strictly about the rold of the BSB character carrying the army standard.
Of course. However, in Tarax's post he was extrapolating to the idea that BSBs would be incapable of holding a two-handed item as a question of realism. This is what I was referring to as "fluff" - not the Q&A extract.

Major Defense
08-01-2006, 12:29
Ah. Gotcha. ;)

MadJackMcJack
08-01-2006, 12:57
I would say that fluff-wise, a BSB could use a bow, because he could simply plant the standard in the ground, fire, and then pick up the standard again. And that he could use a shield outside of melee, but as soon as he got stuck in, he puts it away in favour of a weapon (standards not being the most effective stabbing instrument around).

Not that this would mean anything to me, as I usually give a BSB a magic banner.

Festus
08-01-2006, 13:46
Hi

Fluffwise, I agree: There is no problem to do it they way you describe, MJMJ.
It is the same with most units who have a shield and a weapon that requires two hands, like rep X-bows with shields or Dwarfs with shield and x-bow...

Greetings
Festus

EvC
08-01-2006, 21:55
Thanks for the responses guys, I thought this was going to be anentirely black and white issue, but I guess not!

The question was inspired because I have no suitable BSB model for my High Elves, but I've just bought the Hero model with a bow, and decided I'd stick him in a Tiranoc chariot and make him my BSB by whacking a banner on the back of the chariot. However, I can't arm him with a normal bow so he'll have to have the Reaver Bow. Still not sure what's been decided on the Enchanted Shield issue- I'd sure like my BSB to have a 1+ basic save... but I think I'd leave it off in case my opponents get a bit hot under the collar at such "rules lawyering"...

Mad Makz
09-01-2006, 04:00
http://us.games-workshop.com/games/gaming/treasures.pdf

Q: Battle Standard Bearers cannot use weapons that require two hands or normal shields, but they have access to magic items. Can a Battle Standard Bearer be given a magical shield or a magic weapon that requires two hands?

A: No. If they cannot use the mundane version of an item, they cannot use their magic equivalent. In other words, they have to devote one hand to keep the banner up and cannot do anything else with it.


The difference here is that the definition of 'cannot'. Not having access to a two handed magical weapon in your regular equipment, does NOT prevent you from taking a two handed magic weapon.

I am pretty sure this is universally agreed (otherwise there are probably some lists which have magic weapons they can not use).

So, just because the troop type doesn't have the option to be equipped with a mundane version of an item, doesn't mean they cannot use the magical version of that item.

Only if there is a specific rule barring the use of the mundane version (i.e they cannot use that item); such as the Army Standard rules, will it mean they cannot use the magical version.

That's my take on the question anyway.

T10
09-01-2006, 09:39
[Treasures of the Old Ones Q&A]

This doesn't really help much. There are plenty of magical weapons and armour that have no "counts as this" or "counts as that" while they are magical variety of a hand weapon, spear, lance or whatever. Also, quite a few items have no mundane counterparts - e.g. the Helm of the Skaven Slayer.

The intent is pretty clear, but it leaves a lot to be desired.

-T10

Major Defense
09-01-2006, 15:29
[Treasures of the Old Ones Q&A]

This doesn't really help much. There are plenty of magical weapons and armour that have no "counts as this" or "counts as that" while they are magical variety of a hand weapon, spear, lance or whatever. Also, quite a few items have no mundane counterparts - e.g. the Helm of the Skaven Slayer.

The intent is pretty clear, but it leaves a lot to be desired.

-T10

The issue of a BSB taking a magic bow is *NOT* about whether characters in general can take certain mundane items or their magical versions. It is about the BSB and his need to hold onto that banner pole. The Q&A quoted here is not contradicting any other rules about characters taking magic items because it isn't about characters in general. It is only about the BSB and only about the fact that they are clarifying, without any fluff, that he has to devote one hand to holding up that banner.

Atrahasis
09-01-2006, 16:17
The issue of a BSB taking a magic bow is *NOT* about whether characters in general can take certain mundane items or their magical versions. It is about the BSB and his need to hold onto that banner pole. The Q&A quoted here is not contradicting any other rules about characters taking magic items because it isn't about characters in general. It is only about the BSB and only about the fact that they are clarifying, without any fluff, that he has to devote one hand to holding up that banner.

However, that still doesn't stop them from using a ranged weapon - in Warhammer ranged weapons don't require two hands.

Festus
09-01-2006, 17:30
Hi

Right: Missile weapons don't use hands at all, funnily enough... they can even be shot from your left toe as far as the rules are concerned.

The only things taking up hands are h-t-h weapons and shields.

Nothing else, neither reins, nor bows...

Festus

Borthcollective
09-01-2006, 18:55
If it helps, Army Builder will allow you to take the magic bow, but no shield, like has been implied on here.

Crazy Harborc
09-01-2006, 19:43
Got it right, he did, he did.;). AB isn't "official" like a GW book of whatever, BUT it can be a good place to find clues to whats "hidden" in a GW publication that's "supposed" to have the answers in it.

EvC
09-01-2006, 21:17
Ahh... well now, it turns out my Hero-with-bow model has a shield on his back, so I guess I'll just make do with counting his clearly light armour and shield as heavy armour. Unless anyone really wants to have one final go at convincing me I CAN have the enchanted shield?!

Festus
09-01-2006, 21:35
Hi

A regular hero can, a BSB cannot...

Festus

Tarax
11-01-2006, 13:30
Got it right, he did, he did.;). AB isn't "official" like a GW book of whatever, BUT it can be a good place to find clues to whats "hidden" in a GW publication that's "supposed" to have the answers in it...

...and with a lot of mistakes in it too.

Coming back to BSB using a missile weapon, I just checked and saw that a WE BSB has to hand over his bow, which woiuld indicate that he can't even use a magical bow.

Still I don't see a problem with a BSB carrying a missile weapon. As said a BSB will put the Standard in the ground to shoot. Makes sense. However when he is in combat the standard is left unguarded, a slight nudge will bring it to the ground, so the BSB will have to use a hand to hold it steady, hence the omission of shields and weapons which require two hands.