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Pontus
05-01-2006, 15:22
Hey all

The question i have is: Do pegasus knights have a 360 degrees line of sight arc?

A few facts that i do know of:

1. All flying units are skirmishers
2. Skirmishers have a 360 degrees line of sight arc.
3. Monsters (2+ wound models) have a regular line of sight arc (90 degrees)

Anyone that can clarify?

Sincerely, Pontus

Festus
05-01-2006, 16:21
Hi

1. and 2. apply here.

3. is not true.
A model with 2+ Wounds is not a monster necessarily: Any Hero or Lord has 2+ Wounds...
Apart from that: Pegasus knights are *flying Cavalry* and not monsters.

Greetings
Festus

Flame
05-01-2006, 16:52
Just bear in mind that when a brettonian lord or hero takes a pegasus they count as a monster, with 90 degree LOS.

Festus is right about the peg knight unit.

Griefbringer
05-01-2006, 20:29
Just bear in mind that when a brettonian lord or hero takes a pegasus they count as a monster, with 90 degree LOS.


However, the characters cannot take a "regular" pegasus - they can only take a Royal Pegasus.

Gorbad Ironclaw
05-01-2006, 23:39
Apart from the Pegasus apparently having blood blood, the difference is?

It still count as a monster no matter if it's royal or not.

Festus
06-01-2006, 07:08
Hi

Apart from the Pegasus apparently having blood blood, the difference is?

It still count as a monster no matter if it's royal or not.
*royal* Pegasus is the term used by GW to distinguish between the Monster and the mounts of the flying cavalry, which are *normal* Pegasi.
The former is a Monster, the latter are not.

Greetings
Festus

T10
06-01-2006, 09:52
Maybe, maybe not.

Let's see what those two wounds actually mean.

1) The Pegasus has W1 and the Knight has W1, combined this gives W2.
This seems wrong. The norm for W1 mounts is that their Wounds are effectively disregarded. Instead they provide an bonus to the rider's armour save.

2) The Pegasus has W1, and the Knight has W2.
This actually fits the rules pretty well. Killing Blow fits. The improved armour save fits. But a W2 Knight? Come on! That's Hero-level Wounds. Then again, the Knight is riding his very own Pegasus.

3) The Pegasus has W2 and the Knight has W1.
If this is the case, then the Pegasus counts as a Monster Mount. Instead of providing an armour save bonus, hits should be distributed between rider and mount. Problematic in this case since we are dealing with a unit with multiple models. Odds are that sooner or later a Pegasus will fly around without his Knight, or a Knight will be trudging along on foot.

-T10

Griefbringer
06-01-2006, 10:47
I think we can speculate about the meaning of those wounds until the Fimir return - but the situation would be a lot easier if the pegasus would have something else in the profile for W than the mysterious "-" that currently shows up.

Eldaron
06-01-2006, 12:56
What is the problem?
Just a few looks at the rulebook make clear what is meant.
1. It clearly states that only mounts with 2 or more wounds count as monsters. Since the pegasus of a peg knight doesn`t even have a wound statistic, it cannot be a monster, the rules are absolutely clear.
2. It is nowhere said that models of a unit with 2 or more wounds automatically are monsters (which is obvious since kroxigors etc. don`t count as monsters)
3. Since neither the whole model nor the pegasus count as monsters it (following the rules) must be treated as one model with 2 wounds (there is no other way to do this when sticking to the rules since eveything that is an exception to this basic kind of treatment of units does not fit with pegasus knights due to the rules concerning those exceptions)
3. So since now it is clear that neither the model per sč or the pegasus in particular count as monsters, let`s take a look at the special rules. Peg Knights are flying cavalry which means they follow the normal rules of flying units with some exceptions.

Festus
06-01-2006, 15:44
Hi

Peg Knights are flying cavalry which means they follow the normal rules of flying units with some exceptions.

Which exceptions to the rules for flying units are there for Pegasus Knights?

Festus

Eldaron
06-01-2006, 18:38
See Armybook Bretonnians, they are the same (iirc) for wood elf warhawk riders.
afaik they have US 2, +1 armour save and count as cavalry for some purposes (i.e. spells that affect cavalry)
Other than that, all rules for flying units apply.

Pontus
09-01-2006, 11:46
I think wood elf warhawk riders have a 90 degrees LoS, no?

Atrahasis
09-01-2006, 11:48
I think wood elf warhawk riders have a 90 degrees LoS, no?

No. All units of flyers are skirmishers, and so have 360 LOS.

Avian
09-01-2006, 12:19
3. Monsters (2+ wound models) have a regular line of sight arc (90 degrees)
A 2+ Wound creature is only a monster if it is a unit of it's own (not counting any riders / handlers) and not a character, chariot or anything like that. Thus Pegasus Knights cannot be monsters, because they come in units.

Pegasus Knights are treated as any other unit, in that they have a 90 degree LOS if not skirmishing and a 360 degree LOS if they are skirmishing.

Satan
09-01-2006, 13:19
What about charge arcs? Can a unit of pegasus knights charge in a 360 degree LoS? Or do they have to be facing the object they intend to charge at the start of their own turn (the way my group plays) the rules aren't the least bit explanatory about this.

Festus
09-01-2006, 13:25
Hi

Units of Flyers are *always* skirmishers, and so have a 360° LoS.

They can chagre what they see at the start of the turn, and as they see all around, they can charge all around.

There is no need for them to be positioned in thedirection of the charge. They can even charge enemies in their back.

Festus

Satan
09-01-2006, 16:44
Hm. I'd be inclined to disagree. It just doesn't seem probably that they should have a 20" charge range with 360 LoS. That would make them.... well, I'll just state that it would mkae bretonnians even more uber.

Can anyone find any official clarifications regarding fliers?

Atrahasis
09-01-2006, 17:20
Hm. I'd be inclined to disagree. It just doesn't seem probably that they should have a 20" charge range with 360 LoS. That would make them.... well, I'll just state that it would mkae bretonnians even more uber.

Can anyone find any official clarifications regarding fliers?

Units of Fliers are skirmishers.
Skirmishers have 360 LOS.

That's it, that's the rule.

Eldaron
09-01-2006, 17:46
And before anyone asks, the only clarification/errata is that peg knights cannot use double their movement in difficult terrain when moving on ground (and some other things which are quite clear anyway (like KB working on Peg Knights))
As stated several times above, peg knights are normal units of fliers, which means they always count as skirmishers (meaning 360° LoS, not negating rank bonuses etc.), except anything that is overruled through the flying cavalry special rule.

Festus
09-01-2006, 18:28
Hm. I'd be inclined to disagree.
Well then, go ahead and disagree if you have to :rolleyes:

...or simply read the BRB...

Satan
09-01-2006, 20:07
Well, but would you agree that this makes flying units ridicolously overpowered?
What about a character riding a flying monster? He has to have the intended target within his LoS (Since he's only got a 90 degree arc) at the start of the turn. It just seems weird that flying skirmishiers don't follow the same rules.

Festus
09-01-2006, 20:24
Hi

It is a simplicity issue:

As skirmishers, you could position your models in a way, so that they could look in all directions even if they had only 90° LoS.

This was the case in former editions of the game.

Noone bothered and just said: my Skirmishers look in all directions, without actually turning them to face everywhere.
GW took it up, thankfully, and made Skirmishers 360°

Units of flyers were made skirmishers, so that such a maneouvrable unit was not able to take away ranks. And it fitted their modus operandi, as they are not close formation units.

Festus

GranFarfar
09-01-2006, 21:02
Well, but would you agree that this makes flying units ridicolously overpowered?
What about a character riding a flying monster? He has to have the intended target within his LoS (Since he's only got a 90 degree arc) at the start of the turn. It just seems weird that flying skirmishiers don't follow the same rules.

Yes one might argue that PK gets the best from 2 worlds(bonus AS, US2, 360 LOS etc) but this still dosn“t change the fact that this is how they work.

How do your group use other flyers such as harpies, screamers and furies?

Satan
09-01-2006, 21:31
Oh. Simple. We don't. Generally we decided that the unit was facing a particular way and could only charge what was within a 90 degree arc of whichever way they were facing.

Mad Makz
10-01-2006, 02:11
Satan: As a house rule, that's fine, but flying units have can charge any direction in this edition. The trade off is they can never negate ranks.

I don't find it too powerful, Pegasus Knights ARE good, but you can generally deal with them.

Tarax
11-01-2006, 14:36
Like my unit of archers once did. ;) :D

grk1grk
11-01-2006, 20:50
Hey I'm on page 106 of the rulebook under the paragraph "Aerial Movement" and I'm reading that all flyers ahve a 90" arc of sight for shooting charging etc. Then right below it in the next paragraph it says all flyers are skirmishers. Doesnt this conflict? I assume there has been a rule update since you guys are all saying 360" if anyone ahs it handy can they point me to it? Thanks.

Satan
11-01-2006, 20:59
Oh. Yeah. Right. That's why I think my suggestion is the correct one.

Atrahasis
11-01-2006, 22:15
Then right below it in the next paragraph it says all flyers are skirmishers. Doesnt this conflict?

No. Read it again. The first concerns flying monsters (great eagles, dragons etc). The second concerns units of flyers (harpies, furies, screamers).

Eldaron
11-01-2006, 22:50
@ Satan: Nope, it isn`t the correct one (at last not rulewise) due to those rules only applying to flying monsters (as pointed out above) and flying cavalry are not flying monsters.

Satan
12-01-2006, 08:20
Ok, I don't have to BRB with me right now, but I just want to double-check.
Does it say anywhere in the rules for flyers that they have to be monsters or monstrous? Or does it merely concern flyers in general?

I mean, does it say specifically that the flyers mentioned in the section are monsters? It is certainly probable that the rules are aimed at Monsters or Great Eagles, etc, but would you agree that there is sufficient cause for doubt?

Please note that we will continue with our house rules, it's just that I want this one to get clarified. I find the flyer rules to be too sketchy, and my group agrees with me.

Atrahasis
12-01-2006, 08:28
Most of the page covers general rules for all flyers.

The last paragraph, entitled "Units of Flyers", covers the differences between monstrous flyers and units of flyers.

Griefbringer
12-01-2006, 13:40
I think it is quite clear - units of flyers are skirmishers (and thus have 360 degree LoS), other flyers have LoS "as normal".

Festus
12-01-2006, 14:11
Hi

I think it is quite clear - units of flyers are skirmishers (and thus have 360 degree LoS), other flyers have LoS "as normal".

Where normal usually is 360° for US1 models on their own and 90° for all others...

Greetings
Festus