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Seville
21-07-2009, 06:00
Got the Belakor model for my birthday, and, it's an awesome model and I will probably include him as a Demon Prince for my army in a couple of friendlies. But I honestly can't see a use for these things in a competitive setting.

Wow. How incredibly underwhelming.

Doesn't have the toughness to really withstand any amount of fire. Bolt thrower or cannon? Goodbye. 75 points for a Demonic "Gift" that address this weakness. Um. Hmm. Seems a bit steep.

Poor Ld. Sure, he's stubborn, but, with that Ld, who cares?

No armor. Mediocre ward save. Relatively low T for a model like this in its points range. I mean, 300 base? Really?

Pretty blah offensive statline, as well. Figure maybe 1 or 2 kills per turn against any kind of semi-hard infantry.

And can't join units?! Icing on the cake. I could see him chilling in a unit of Warriors and adding some value, but, he can't even do that. Too proud or something.

I've heard about people using lvl 4 Tzeentch sorcerer DPs with Tendrils to good effect, but, I am having a hard time picturing it. It seems like you would be turning over a free 500+ VPs to your opponent as soon you plunk the thing down on the table.

Am I missing something here? Or are they really that bad?

TroyJPerez
21-07-2009, 06:14
The tzeentch one is the only good option. 4+ ward save isn't that bad, but not that great either. And most of the tzeentch spells don't need line of site so you can hide him behind something while he casts if you fear getting shot down. I think the Demon Prince unable to join units makes him completely useless. Before I considered using him in a unit of warriors or mauraders in order to make them stubborn. But he can't even do this anymore. It really is one of the worse choices in the game. Now if the Demon prince could be equiped with weapons and armour then he would be considered a good choice. I mean just think of it. 300 points for a 4+ ward save, terror causing, 4 wound, toughness 5, 3+ armour save from chaos armour and a sheild or 2+ with enchanted sheild, flying and strength 7 with a flail or greatweapon. He would be a decent Lord choice then and very much worth the points. But with only demonic gifts to buff him he kinda sucks.

Puritan
21-07-2009, 06:56
As lvl4 with Tendrils he's awesome but increadibly boring, points denial, throwing that Infernal Gateway 6 rounds without commiting himself in any way. You say he sucks but i'll bet you that we will see that build in the ETC in Germany.

Best regards
Puritan

Harwammer
21-07-2009, 07:42
Terror bomb, missile platform and decent at running enemy fleeing units into your own lines.

I've had success on my DP without even needing gateway.

Unuhexium
21-07-2009, 07:48
Either as a sorc or maybe to terrorbomb low LD armies in combination with a Doomtotem. Either way feels like a waste of his awesome close combat abilities though.

NakedBarbarian
21-07-2009, 10:06
I never use a Demon Prince. Even back in the 'hordes' days i would only ever use a exalted demon as my artillery/wizard/lone character killer.

I much prefer my Chaos Lord of Khorne on a Daemonic Mount. Im gonna try the Jugger one day when i can be bothered buying the model.

EvC
21-07-2009, 11:10
Yeah it's all about Gateway ftw. Just auto-concede the 1/3 of the games when you don't roll Gateway, and you're set.

StarFyre
21-07-2009, 11:20
how is 4+ ward not that great?
The best ward save in the game (other than that dark elf item) are Kroak, Archaon, Masque, and Kairos who have a 3+ ward.

Sanjay

Mullitron
21-07-2009, 11:42
how is 4+ ward not that great?
The best ward save in the game (other than that dark elf item) are Kroak, Archaon, Masque, and Kairos who have a 3+ ward.

Sanjay

Have to agree its hardly bad, also with the fury of the blood god gift and mark of tzeentch it has a 3+ ward save vs spells and a mr of 2. That combined with a toughness of 5 and 4 wounds not to mention that fact it can fly does mean its not the easiest thing to kill.

However sadly its not as great in combat as the fluff suggests or we would like it to be. Would of been nice to of seen the marks give the same benefits the spawn and giant get ie asf for slaanesh and +1 strength for khorne as well as some more fighty gifts. As a caster tho ive heard its quite effective with mark of nurgle and slaneesh not just tzeentch.

Kerill
21-07-2009, 12:23
how is 4+ ward not that great?
The best ward save in the game (other than that dark elf item) are Kroak, Archaon, Masque, and Kairos who have a 3+ ward.

Sanjay

The problem isn't the ward, its the lack of armour before the ward against small arms fire.

Tzeentch DP is good but dreadfully dull, slaaneshi one could be awesome against non ITP armies.

Also his combat stats are hardly awesome since he can't take a weapon of any kind. I really wish GW had given them more options, even if it made them more expensive.

Elazar The Glorified
21-07-2009, 12:55
I don't really understand a Tzeentch Daemon Prince myself, a Sorcerer Lord can do all the same except Tendrills for cheaper. I do however quite like the Daemon Prince. I have one in my Slaaneshi army quite regularly. The thing you have to consider is that he isn't anything like his fluff! Against ItP armies he can be absolutely devastating particularly if with MoS you get Hellshriek and take the Diabolical Splendour gift. He's capable of clearing vast sections of the board in your turn and your opponents. The problem with the Daemon Prince (with any mark) is that in the competitive environment with ItP armies being the norm he becomes mostly useless as an attacking option. When this happens to me he usually hides in a forest somewhere taking great advantage of the fact that his spells are long range AND don't need line of sight and denying my opponent a nice big chunk of VP but not earning me any either :(
All in all he's very circumstantial, I use one more because it fits the theme of my army than anything else but I don't agree that he's useless. He just needs to pick his combats very carefully (killing foolish lone wizards is something he can be quite handy for along with warmachine crews).

Pichamorena
21-07-2009, 14:26
I adquired recently a Belakor model so, and looks impressive.

I have use two times a deamon prince;
Mark of Tzeentch, Lvl 4 sorcerer, Tendrils of Tzeentch.

Most of tzeentch spells dont need to see the enemies, and daemon prince can be in close combat. I used it to destroy war machines, smalls units, and use the magic against the enemy most importan units. a Tzeentch hero in flying disc and a level 2 nurgle sorcerer with book of secrets complete muy army's characters.

Its not a bad option, and sometimes is funny include greats models like Belakor. Win its not the most important. That really import is kill enemies!

I'm waiting to see your Belakor painted ^^.

PD: sorry my bad english.

GenerationTerrorist
21-07-2009, 20:52
I don't know why anyone would ever take a Lvl4 DP (even with MoT) when a Lvl4 Sorcerer has a better save (and equal ward save in some cases), can take magic items, can hide in units, and would generally cost about 100pts less.

Just don't see it as a viable choice for my army, so would probably never include one except maybe as a solo warmachine/character hunter. But even then it would be 350-400pts for something that you would be afraid to charge into a unit or nasty combat character.

mdiscala
21-07-2009, 21:14
Probably the main reason to take one is because you like the model and on friendly games. I use a lev4 tzeentch with tendrils, but only really because I don't have enough models to get to 2250 without him.

Drachen_Jager
21-07-2009, 21:53
It sucks, the centrepiece of my army in 6th was a converted 40K demon prince (exalted in my army) with some nice wings and some sculpting work, he looks awesome and I'm certain that my tourney win in 6th would have been a loss if I didn't have him on the table (painting score, he was never THAT hot battle wise, but OK with the Aethersword). Now I'm left with a really nice model that's a total waste of points...

khagrim
21-07-2009, 22:15
one of my favorite model ( 40k demon prince with fantasy dragon wings )
not too sure on how i'll field him yet , i find it too costy even when limiting the upgrades/marks/wizzard lvs.

Gaargod
21-07-2009, 22:55
Its not as effective as a sorc lord, no. But then again, neither is a chaos lord but you still get people using them. Sure, knights + magic is the WoC hardcore army, but that doesn't mean you HAVE to use them.

A sorc lord of tzeentch on a disc with gear (book, spell familiar, enchanted shield, golden eye sound familiar to anyone?) will be more survivable (1+armour, 3+ ward), about as good at magic/better (5 dice and an extra 2 spells as opposed to tendrils) and comes in at about 100pts cheaper. But that's hardly the point.

Look at it this way. Its still an effective flyer, who can deal with war machines and light troops happily. He can missle stuff with one of the best lores in the game all day long. He is a frankly amazing terror bomb - diabolic splendour, especially combined with doomtotem, is just vicious. When you consider the other hard hitters of chaos - knights and the monsters, all cause fear/terror, you can get a quite amazing psychology related army going. Ok, its not a slaanesh leadership bomb army, but that's daemons..

You can take a WoC daemon prince the same way you might take a chaos lord on dragon. Its not as effective, but its fun.

A DoC daemon prince, on the other hand, is complete trash. Would be taken only to deliberately make a softer army.

EvC
21-07-2009, 22:59
DoC Daemon Princes are far better, as they have combat gifts available to them. And magic attacks. And can't be broken conventionally...

sulla
21-07-2009, 23:33
DoC Daemon Princes are far better, as they have combat gifts available to them. And magic attacks. Far better at? Certainly not magic with only a maximum of two casting levels and a hefty entry fee for many gifts and god-specific lores. It is a better fighter than the WoC one, but it is also a much worse fighter than a naked bloodthirster or two heralds of khorne on juggers.


And can't be broken conventionally... I dunno. Wouldn't you rather have the ability to escape with your flying stubborn DP and rally?

Seville
21-07-2009, 23:57
Thanks for the replies, guys.

Yeah, I usually don't complain much, and I don't mean this as a complaint thread, but this is one Army Book entry that really warrants a WTF? I am glad I am not alone in thinking this thing just doesn't justify its point cost.

It seems really fragile and lacking in offensive capabilities for its frankly exorbitant points cost. Shame, really. Because it is a very cool concept.

Even the Chaos Lord I can understand - it seems overpriced, but within the context of the army, the points cost makes sense. We already have enough death dealing crazy offense with our normal units, so there is a bit of a point premium on our combat Lords, who also happen to be some of the best in the game. But the DP? Just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Drachen_Jager
22-07-2009, 05:02
Yeah the DP can be an OK caster (though more pricey and incapable of buying magic items that make the Sorc Lord much better). What if you run a Khorne army? It seems like GW completely ignored Khorne this edition, you can successfully run any mono-god army with warriors except for Khorne. But it does inspire some creative thinking, my scroll caddy will be an Empire Sorcerer with a chain around his neck attached to my Warshrine.

Valtiel
22-07-2009, 06:38
It is times like these that I really miss the Exalted Daemon. He did what a Daemon Prince could, but only cheaper. The reason why he was the preferred one in the Hordes of Chaos days. Sadly they didn't change a whole lot with the Daemon Prince and imo it actually got worse. Lower Ld (why I have no idea), worse I, is only stubborn now, much worse Daemonic Gifts etc. It is sad neither the Daemon Prince in the Daemons or Warriors book is any good. I wonder why they are then making a plastic kit but... well it probably works in 40k as well.

The Daemon Prince isn't the only thing that is overcosted, imo. pretty much both the Exalted Hero and Chaos Lord especially are badly costed which saddens me but I guess that has been discussed to death.

Skogla
22-07-2009, 12:13
Im about to try a, either
lvl 4 fire daemon prince with Diabolic splendour, fury of the blood god and Soporific musk
or
lvl 4 death with Diabolic splendour, fury of the blood god and Soporific musk
why not tzeentch? because I don't like the tzeentch lore and chanting "gateway ftw" is noobish ;d

why fire? for flaming sword of lol and burning head + 2 random spells for more dmg, he would be a good melee unit and a good dmg dealer with spells also burning head causing panic tests when a casualty has been made with -1 from splendour

why death? drain life and Doom and Darkness! a DP flying around causing terror tests at -4 and 6+ wounds from drain life =p
also at his LD 8 he doesn't need to be the general! which I find useful

EvC
22-07-2009, 14:59
Far better at?

Clue's in the quote, sulla. Far better at combat. Worse than a Bloodthirster of course, but not so many points either. Still not a good choice, but the Daemon one is still better at non-magic.


I dunno. Wouldn't you rather have the ability to escape with your flying stubborn DP and rally?

Not on LD8. A quarter of the time you won't rally, other times you'll simply be caught outright or run off before you can rally. Although there isn't much between that and the Daemonic instability really.

daa6
23-07-2009, 05:35
Stats are the same if i remember correct, for both WoC and DoC DP. Differece is WoC can cast spells and Doc can be better at CC.

Tho Woc has 100pts from gifts, "not a really wide choice" AND the Marks are cheaper, AND do Stuff.

DoC, Mark expensive, do NOTHING on there own. and only allowed 50pts of god specific stuff :( (boo) all 75 would have been better.

+ WoC Fly's just because, and causes Terror.

"the last i understand more... which would make you (poo) yourself more a "ex-mortal" now scary or the Greater Daemon behind him?
he/she would blend in with the rest of the "lesser" Daemons around. BUT there should still be the option to (upgrade him though)...

Havock
23-07-2009, 14:11
Im about to try a, either
lvl 4 fire daemon prince with Diabolic splendour, fury of the blood god and Soporific musk
or
lvl 4 death with Diabolic splendour, fury of the blood god and Soporific musk
why not tzeentch? because I don't like the tzeentch lore and chanting "gateway ftw" is noobish ;d

I'd rather not sink 500+ pts into a very vulnerable magic platform. Tzeentch does improve your wardsave.

Draconian77
23-07-2009, 14:35
I'm just going to go a little off topic.



The Daemon Prince isn't the only thing that is overcosted, imo. pretty much both the Exalted Hero and Chaos Lord especially are badly costed which saddens me but I guess that has been discussed to death.

Exalteds are overcosted? Really?

Compared to a DE Master they have +1Ws, +1S, +1T, +1I, +1A, re-roll Panic checks and a 4+ save base.

For 30pts more? To gain those stat upgrades via magic items would cost a heck of a lot more than 30pts, I can guarantee you that!
(They also have more than the 50pts of stuff, with Marks and Gifts)

(You don't have Hatred, although that's a doube edged sword and you lose out on Ld9, you also have EotG, but still, for only 30pts more the Exalted is a great hero level fighting character)

The Chaos Lord on the other hand...well, what can he do that 2 Exalteds couldn't? (Other than ride a Dragon...)

EvC
23-07-2009, 15:17
Hatred on a character is usually worth 25 points on its own, and +1LD is easily worth 25 points (I want to say 50 points!). The 4+ save is not especially exciting considering Dark Elves can buy themselves a save of that much, but the extra goodies are ok. Dark Elves can get far nicer magic items, although the marks do provide a nice few bonuses. Exalted Champions are still quite good, it's just that Sorcerers provide more direct benefit so it makes them seem overcosted (which I don't think they are).

Draconian77
23-07-2009, 15:52
Oh, I do agree that Hatred and Ld9 are nice, but all the raw fighting stats are in the Exalteds favour, hopefully you won't need to take that break check and you do re-roll panic. Immunity to Fear and Terror without reducing your magic item allowance is also great these days.

Essentially the 4+ save means that the Exalted's stats and rules are only valued at about 100pts. (Roughly)

I would argue about the magic items, but I don't feel that truly it's neccesary to evaluate whether or not the Exalted is overpriced.
Said simply, both list have their good choices and bad choices and while the WoC list doesn't have any stand out items, with the Exalteds statline all of the offensive magic items are slightly better value. (Obviously a Sword of Might is better in the hands of an Exalted, for example)

Ironically, Chaos Sorcerors are probably undercosted for their abilities(either that or Elven mages are overcosted...probably just this actually)

I guess magic is just the WoC main selling point these days, it's a tad disheartening. I wonder, if EotG's wasn't there, would more people tale combat builds?

Avian
23-07-2009, 17:27
I don't think it is all that interesting to compare basic characters, because those are just about never fielded in battle. It is far more relevant to compare actual builds that people are using.

Kalec
23-07-2009, 19:36
Exalteds are superfluous in a WoC army. The combat ability is not needed and we need our magic badly. DE benefit greatly from the extra combat power of a master, and have far better toys for him to carry around.

Of course, neither see much play in 2/2250 except as BSBs, so this is a fairly meaningless comparison.

Draconian77
24-07-2009, 00:59
Both good points, I still disagree that the DE have "far better toys to carry around" (with two exceptions, care to guess?) but overall I still think it's fair to call an Exalted appropriately priced, if not actually required. That was the only thing I wanted to point out to be honest, 110pts seems pretty decent for those stats and options.

EvC
24-07-2009, 11:59
Well, they do. Ring of Hotek, Pendant of Khaeleth and decent magic banners (ASF/ Hydra) are a start, but then look deeper. As Avian so rightly says, it's the actual combinations that are better. You say a Sword of Might is better on a Chaos character- sure, but it also costs more (I was shocked at the cost of a Sword of Battle for Warriors, I bet it's not 25 points for Dark Elves). Chaos would kill for magic weapons like Soulrender (for 15 points!) or even things like Deathpiercer. Crimson Death would only ever be taken on Sorcerers however :D

The Dark Elf magic item section is indisputably far superior to that of Chaos, so it's no wonder that Dark Elves have better magic item combinations on their heroes. And yes, Chaos gets Daemonic Gifts... only one is ever worth taking on a hero :o

Kerill
24-07-2009, 13:47
Or the dagger of hotek, lifetaker, (heartseeker), hydrablade, potion of strength would be sick as well.

All of these items would be taken a lot by WOC if they could and would make fighty characters a lot more useful

willowdark
24-07-2009, 15:03
Im about to try a, either
lvl 4 fire daemon prince with Diabolic splendour, fury of the blood god and Soporific musk
or
lvl 4 death with Diabolic splendour, fury of the blood god and Soporific musk
why not tzeentch? because I don't like the tzeentch lore and chanting "gateway ftw" is noobish ;d

why fire? for flaming sword of lol and burning head + 2 random spells for more dmg, he would be a good melee unit and a good dmg dealer with spells also burning head causing panic tests when a casualty has been made with -1 from splendour

why death? drain life and Doom and Darkness! a DP flying around causing terror tests at -4 and 6+ wounds from drain life =p
also at his LD 8 he doesn't need to be the general! which I find useful


I think Skogla is on to something here. Flaming sword would be horrendous on a DP, and would be an absolute _must dispel_ on any turn the DP was charging. Unlike most instances, having this dispelled would not be the end of the world for the DP, but with enough dice it could tear a hole in the enemy's magic defense.

Of course it's important to note that flaming sword is not the default spell. Skogla seems to imply that he's guaranteed to have it in every game.

But Tzeentch Lore is not entirely "Gateway FTW!" It does suffer against ItP armies, but shooting armies that seem to threaten the DP the most don't tend to fall into this category. Combined with Splendour, Pandeamonium can be huge against shooters, a ld-1 Terror bomb that denies the general's leadership.

With +1 to cast and a single Lvl2 support you could easily burn through dispels to make sure this goes off, and since your not a large target, smart positioning can still save you if it doesn't go off. It's a big risk, with a big payoff.

Havock
24-07-2009, 15:11
The flaming sword thing is indeed fun. But that's what xalted Daemons were for! :p

Draconian77
24-07-2009, 16:00
@EVC; I know my own magic item list, I know the WoC magic item list, it's not as clear cut as that.

The Ring and Pendant are in a different league.
Other than that, the WoC magic item list is pretty decent.

Most Dark Elf players acknowledge that are Enchanted Item section is dead barring the Potion of Strenght. When it comes to magic weapons, what I would give for the Axe of Khorne. :D It's true that your Sword of Battle costs more, but I mean, +1 Ws7 S5 attack should be worth more than +1 Ws6 S4 attack, no? (The difference between S4 and 5 is colossal).


@Kerill; The Hydra Blade and Heartseeker would be awesome on S5 characters. On S4 characters they are useless additions to the book.

The Lifetaker would be out of place in the WoC book, although without it's magical attacks it lost a lot of it's charm for me. I really wish GW would just go back to saying magic bow or magic arrow = magical attacks...sigh.

If we want to discuss this we could just open another thread...

EvC
24-07-2009, 17:10
Why in the blue hell would you be eager to take a 45 point +1S KB magic weapon over a magic lance with KB for 20 points less? I really don't think you thought that one through. Every Chaos player in the world would eagerly swap with you on the other hand.

You say that the difference between the Sword of Battle on an Exalted makes it more worth it than on a Master- but that difference in already accounted for in the base statistics of the model. So you're saying is Chaos players should pay twice for their magic weapons. And once again you also conveniently fail to mention that the Dark Elf has hatred. WS7 vs WS6 with hatred, HMM let me think which is better? Again... didn't think that one through by the sounds of it.

If you could name 5 Chaos magic items that you would like to see in the Dark Elf army list, for use on a Master, then I would be most impressed. I'd be even more impressed if 10 seconds thought didn't show why Dark Elves alreayd have a far superior similar magic item.

Isabel
24-07-2009, 18:16
On the topic of daemon princes ;) I just finished pinning dragon wings onto my Be'lakor model... Looks fantastic. That's all the reason I need to field one!

EvC
24-07-2009, 18:29
I too would love to field a Daemonc Prince just because of the Khornate Prince model released by Forgeworld. It would have to be in a Daemons army, of course ;)

Skogla
24-07-2009, 21:23
Of course it's important to note that flaming sword is not the default spell. Skogla seems to imply that he's guaranteed to have it in every game.


I know its not the lvl 1 spell and Im not implying that I would have it in every combat however I would take the lore of fire mainly because of flaming sword of lol and burning head even if I didn't get those two spells he still would be decent IMO. Tho it is still a good chance of getting it with 4 spell rolls (as I would field him lvl 4 wizard)

also the new modell is looking so awesome I cant let it stand collecting dust :P

Isabel
24-07-2009, 21:26
Yea, I like the idea of a flying, terror causing model with 6 attacks hitting on 2's and wounding on 2's... I just hate the idea of passing up on that +1 to ward save, the main reason I field him as tzeentch atm.

Good call though, never really considered him as a fire caster.

Seville
24-07-2009, 21:38
Well, the Demon Prince can take Lore of Heavens, right?

There are some interesting possibilities there. Second Sign of Amul and Portent of Far could be interesting... Clestial Shield would effectively give him a 2+ ward vs. missiles, correct?

But, then again, that is a ton of points to spend just to make him a little more survivable.

As people have mentioned, Flaming Sword of Rhuin could be very good on him. But, not guaranteed to roll it, and you forfeit that ward for MoT. And, again, it's A LOT of points to pay.

Lore of Shadows looks just about worthless on him to me. But I don't like that lore in general.

As someone pointed out, Lore of Death could be very effective. Doom and Darkness coupled with Diabolic Splendor would be just brutal. Steal Soul could be nice if you get it off a couple of times, and Wind of Death is always a good spell. But, again, you sacrifice that MoT ward...

I am glad I opened this thread. These are all possibilities I had not really considered. I think if nothing else, a Lore of Fire or Lore of Death Lvl4 DP could be a lot of fun.

Unless, of course, he gets killed by a cannon first turn.

Troah
24-07-2009, 22:27
I would take 'em because they're cute.

Death Korp
24-07-2009, 22:27
Cannons always have a chance of killing things, you just have to take the risk and hope the D6 will save you.

I think when I get my Daemon prince, it will be a Tzeench on for the Ward save. Or maybe a fire one...

DK

Draconian77
24-07-2009, 23:38
Why in the blue hell would you be eager to take a 45 point +1S KB magic weapon over a magic lance with KB for 20 points less? I really don't think you thought that one through. Every Chaos player in the world would eagerly swap with you on the other hand.

I think it's you who hasn't though that one through.

~*Half the models in this game just don't break any more, having the extra Str on consecutive rounds is incredibly useful.
*Not implying that half the units in the game are Unbreakable, Daemonic or Undead. Implying that the common choices in armies are those that can hold reliably. The rest are Unbreakble, Daemonic or Undead. :D
~Not to mention that after the first round, our re-rolls no longer apply so you have a better chance of KB.
~Take into consideration that if you are charged then you still benefit from a Str bonus, we do not.
~Also take into consideration that if we fail our KB we generally wound on 4's and inflict a -1 save, whereas obviously you will be wounding on 2+ and inflicting a -3 modifier.
~If our mount dies(say a Pegasus) don't we lose the KB because we can't use the lance on foot? You don't have that possible problem either.

Paying a more points to ensure that you have far greater killing power is no great loss.

You say that the difference between the Sword of Battle on an Exalted makes it more worth it than on a Master- but that difference in already accounted for in the base statistics of the model.

You think so? I dont. I truly doubt GW take a models statline into account when creating their magic items or vice-versa.

So you're saying is Chaos players should pay twice for their magic weapons.

Funny, I don't think I said that...but yes. I think an Exalted should pay more for his Sword of Might than my Master does, because it's better on him. He does and it is so what's the problem? The specific increase of value on the weapon is up for debate, but twice is a gross exaggeration on your behalf. For example, don't we both have weapons that ignore armour saves for 50pts? I sometimes see a WoC players take that item. Have yet to see a Druchii player take it. I understand that POV completely, on a 3A S4 model it just doesn't seem worth the 50pts.

And once again you also conveniently fail to mention that the Dark Elf has hatred. WS7 vs WS6 with hatred, HMM let me think which is better? Again... didn't think that one through by the sounds of it.

You didn't think that one out either...read the following for clarification.

A3 Ws6+Hatred vs Ws<6 = 2.66 hits Without Hatred; 2 hits
A4 Ws7 vs Ws<6 = 2.66 hits

A3 Ws6+Hatred vs Ws6 = 2.25 hits Without Hatred; 1.5 hits
A4 Ws7 vs Ws6 = 2.66 hits

A3 Ws6+Hatred vs Ws7+ = 2.25 hits Without Hatred; 1.5 hits
A4 Ws7 vs Ws7+ = 2 hits

Clearly the Exalted is so much worse...hitting every Elven Hero more than the Dark Elf Master would! He is only actually worse against Lord choices(not the Tomb King or Saurus Scar Veteran or the Grand Master though, he is better than the Master against those...) and only then by a tiny .25 After the Hatred wears off, he is far superior.

So these are the numbers. Pretty hard to refute clear evidence in fairness.

If you could name 5 Chaos magic items that you would like to see in the Dark Elf army list, for use on a Master, then I would be most impressed. I'd be even more impressed if 10 seconds thought didn't show why Dark Elves alreayd have a far superior similar magic item.

Unfortunately my friend borrowed the WoC book, although if he will be coming over tomorrow so I can retrieve it then. If you care to wait I'll indulge you. (It will probably have to wait until Sunday though, we are having a get together with others tomorrow so I'll be very, very tired) :D



All fear the pink mist!