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BrPrometheus
22-07-2009, 03:12
So when the deamon army book came out I echoed the many cries of cheese that you heard and nashed my teeth and shook my fist at the heavens and cursed the GW play testing team.

This thread is not about this... We all know the army book is unbalanced. What I would like to do is create a thread for individuals to post tactics that can be used to fight the common builds you see.

After some thoughts I have come to some of the following conclusions:
1. The Masque and the Blue scribes cannot join units. One is on a flyer base and the other specifically says it cannot. Both of these are very vulnerable to shooting. Getting something on a hill that can see over screening units and shooting the crap out of these two units should be a priority.
2. If the deamon player takes a BSB and the masque expect the leadership bomb. Do everything in your power to kill the unit the BSB is in. The killer here is that the really tough units are taking the BSB in the plague bearers making them a 5+, 4+.
3. Bloodthirster - Many of the Bloodthirster players are still taking the flaming sword attacks. If you can find a immune to flaming attacks peice of wargear in your list put it on a beefy character, challenge, and try to wear the bloodthirster down on combat res.
4. Keeper of Secrets - I have not experienced this one yet but I have heard deamon players worry about the vulnerability to shooting attacks.
5. Charge redirecting against the hounds. These hounds are one of the most point effecient units in the game. Using a unit to redirect the charge so that the hounds cannot charge your core lines but if they were to charge your rediector and the unit fails they will end up exposing their flank to a hard hitting unit.

So it seems that shooting is very important against deamons. Deamons are not winning every game so people must have developed tactics to deal with them. Please post your general ideas as well as any specific army combinations you see.

Nathangonmad
22-07-2009, 13:01
Well I've not played many, competent daemon players. But I find what you said for number 5 works for allot of units, daemons are all about there characters so if you can bait a unit to show its flanks and keep the characters out of combat thats pretty much a dead daemon unit.

daa6
23-07-2009, 05:49
Point 2, need to use Magic or Flaming missiles "dwarfs" so they only have the ward save. Negating at least one of their strengths.

Agree on point 3. and the same can be said for a herald "with / without Jugger".

Point 5, is a good one, as hounds are fast Cav, so "fast" and hit as hard as come other Cav units. Collars make Magic (ill effective) but offering a "throw away" unit (right infront of them) with a suprise if poss, (finatics/assassin....) Could be of some effect, but Placing that unit so the Hounds advance through them and away from your main force would buy you time for a counter, or at least a turn.

only some observations.

(we can but try) :(

daa6
23-07-2009, 05:53
Range in the form of shooting is a bonus against Daemons it does seem, as well as Magic Missiles, as not to many scrolls about, "that i've seen"

But like "harli's, in 40K", it is a ward save, but it is also 5+, so if they take enough Sv's they'll fall "sooner or later"..... :(

"and watch there pace... "clever deployment has saved a charge". Not quite at 12" ;)

Draconian77
23-07-2009, 06:09
In general, character assassination.

Best way of doing it? Probably big monsters if they are in a unit (Immune to Fear/Terror, can't be challenged out, immune to Killing Blow, etc, etc) or some fighty character. KB is actually rather nice against Daemon characters, despite their Ward save and for the 2 likely BsB candidates(Jugger Herald/Plague Herald) you ignore a big chunk of their defense.
(0+ save/regen effectively)

If they are outside then shooting/magic. (Generally speaking DoC have plenty of DD though, Horrors should be a priority target if you are magic heavy and they have gone for the 3x10 set up, a few kills here and there can seriously deplete their DD pool)

Other than that just use normal tactics, with a slight bias towards making your army immune to Fear/Terror in the "army list" stage.

Some armies can't effectively deal with things like the Bloodthirster but most armies can.

BrPrometheus
23-07-2009, 21:04
So I played last night. High Elves Vs Deamons. I asked my opponent to lay the cheese on to test some of my ideas. Here were some of the successful results:

Massed Bolt thrower fire worked to drop the Bloodthirster. The odds are in your favor. 9 hits on average to kill him. With the large target bonus and elf balistic skill I was able to kill the Bloodthirster of doom.

Seekers are vulnerable to regular bow fire. At T3, 5+ ward save massed fire can and does work.

Big Units of horrors. Get a unit into combat with them. Unless they have that god -aweful spell much of their magic cannot be used and they are soo incompetent in hthg you slowly were at the unit.

Khorne dogs have a low leadership. Once they start taking checks with any negatives they start taking wounds unless the general is around.

PeG
23-07-2009, 21:19
I agree that shooting them is the solution to most daemon problem but geting enough hits is usually not that easy. Getting 9 bolt thrower hists on the Thirster is usually rather difficult against a competent player. If you go first you should get 2 turns of shooting before he is in close combat (1 if he has terrain to hide behind or goes first). Also I find that most thirsters are accompanied by other flyers (core) that will attack bolt throwers, cannons, weak shooting units etc on their second turn.

crazywhiteboydance
24-07-2009, 11:26
This is more like it. A good discussion on how to combat daemons with no whinging, good on you guys!

As a loooong time daemon player I can tell you you've hit the nail on the head by forcing them to roll dice, be it from shooting or throwing units at them in combat. Once you've got them rolling an above average amount of dice for their saves they're out the door like yesterdays jam!

The only exception to this in the whole daemon army is the Plaguebearer Deathstar that has the front rank of characters! My advice here is to ignore it with your units & concentrate on the rest of the force, hit it with magic & any flaming ranged attackes you may be able to get. Then hopefully in late game you'll be in a position to engae this beastie on all fronts.

Urgat
24-07-2009, 12:24
How do you deal with flamers? With my gobs, I can only think of massed ranged attacks, or charriots (but they cause fear, so gob charriots...).

Briohmar
24-07-2009, 12:25
As a Daemon player, I will share some of the points that have hurt me. As daemons are expensive, the cheapest throw-away unit we can manage is 55-60 points. The problem with these units is that they actually serve a purpose in most lists. 5 Furies, though small, is still a really good warmachine/wizard hunter, and better still if you up the size to 6 or 7. A fiend of Slaanesh is also useful in this role. The problem with the Fiend is he eats up a rare slot, where the Furies are LD 2.
Daemons played as mutually supporting units are a significant problem to a lot of armies, but if you can separate them out, the units are pretty fragile. Contrary to many whines, the 5+ war save has a really limited effect on most combats, and since none of the units have armor, that one roll may make or break a combat. Especially if I'm running the Daemons, statistically I should make one out of every 3 ward saves, but realistically I make 1 in every 6-7 rolls.
Pick on individual units, especially the smaller ones, then mass on the big units. Shoot hounds, fireball Plaguebearers, CC against Horrors is generally a good idea, unless there's a herald with them, in which case, challenge the Herald (he's easily beaten) then beat up the horrors.
If you are outnumbered by Daemons (with most armies) you're doing something wrong. Always pick fights where you have a distinct advantage, either by unit size, or by position, or better yet, by both.

Sorry, need to do something right now, I'll write more later.

daa6
25-07-2009, 05:14
Only other point i can think of is to deploy "further back" as the Daemons have a good average movement, and FOCUS, on units one at a time so to speak, with range "marking your targets, and prioritise". the angle your units, to prevent the follow though...

xsamx
25-07-2009, 11:30
How do you deal with flamers? With my gobs, I can only think of massed ranged attacks, or charriots (but they cause fear, so gob charriots...).

I'd like some advice on beating flamers too. I play WoC and the only thing i have with a charge range that canhit them without being flamed first is a hero on a disc. The insane number of attacks means they can usually kill off your cavalry before you can hit them. What techniques work vs. flamers other thna shooting your own stuff at them (cos WoC cant really do this).

fubukii
25-07-2009, 16:36
i can name sometings that are fairly effectov vs flamers

chaos knights the 1+ save means that even after my str 4 shot you still get a 2+ save. Now if there knights are of the nurgle variety i even hit them less its troublsome.
ws5 units in combat with them.
Constantly screening them with Cheap throw away units
Anything in dragon armor or imune to flaming.
anything that does d3 wounds.
Anything that auto hits or high bs shooting ( magic missles, HIGH BS elf characters, organ guns, anvil of doom, ratling guns)
howler wind

Drachen_Jager
25-07-2009, 16:46
I'd think Knights would survive OK, it's only a S4 attack, so you're at 50% of hits wound and only 1 in 6 wounds get past armour. What's the problem, it takes 7-8 flamers to average one wound on Knights. 3.5 shots per flamer, 50% hit, 1.75 per flamer, 50% wound .875% per flamer, and 1 in 6 get past armour .1458333% per flamer.

Also, the flamers would get a stand and shoot against your Disc rider, I'm unsure why you think otherwise (because you start out of range maybe? If so, re-read the stand and shoot section.)

Makaber
25-07-2009, 18:13
As for point 1, I agree completely. I've only played against the Masque once, and this was when the Daemon book was very new so I didn't know what to expect. Because I didn't see the Ld bomb coming, I started shooting at her relativly late in the game, but once I did, I was pleasantly surprised with how easy it was to shave off wounds. This was with Tomb Kings, so I didn't have the usual problems hitting, but still ... She's a bit like the Necron Wraiths in WH40k; a good Ward only goes so far when you got few wounds and is getting hit with a lot of minor stuff.

I guess this is old news, but if you're up against a Blood Thirster, take a lot of Champions if you know it in advance. Challenge at every opportunity. With ranks, outnumber and banner, you should be able to hold for at least a round, which is one round the Thirster isn't mauling something else.

Finally, I've found Killing Blow to be very good against a wide variety of Daemon units. They still get the Ward, of course, but you bypass the Regeneration of Plaguebearers, Armour of Bloodcrushers and Heralds on Juggernauts, take both Wounds of Heralds (who are, after all, more important to kill quickly than many other characters), and shave both Wounds off Bloodcrushers and Fleshhounds.

BrPrometheus
25-07-2009, 19:34
Flamers
I do not have the orks and goblins army book but night goblins launching fanatics should work well. Again I do not have the rules but the range on the flamers is 18." Which means that if he is in range o shoot you then you are in range to retaliate by marching the fanatics forward and then releasing the fanatics into their line. I know that many people do not like screening their fanatics but taking a small cheap unit if goblins and screening your strong night goblin unit until you are ready to relese the fanatics might work.
The key will be delivering the fanatics without getting them called out by his fast moving stuff. Though I believe most of the deamon fast movers are either very expensive (in which case I don't mind a fanatic or two hitting their lines) or easy to kill with regualr bow fire.

For my high elf game I forgot the mention the absolute brilliance of the dragon prince charge against the flamers. As stated above anything that can make a unit immune t flaming attacks really does benefit aganst deamons.

To continue my general thoughts about the deamon army and why it seems so powerful I believe some of it has to do with the amount of attack dice they get to roll. There is a well known paradig in my area that armies that role more dice tend to do better. I beleive this is fundamentally true becuase it tends to make you role average. If I am rolling 15 dice needing 3's to be successfull if I were to have bad luck and instead of getting 10 hits I get 8 the the proportional loss of success is relatively minor than if I am rolling 6 and instead of getting 4 hits I only get two. The first case is not too bad the second case is devestating and in the end both are only two dice failing. Deamons across the board seem to role more dice. The assualty guys have more attacks, the tough guys have more saves. This means of all the armies deamons tend t role average better making them more steady and easy to predict. In my high elf army I am trying to apply the principal to mass as well. In my case it is buying units that echo this ability to role more dice meaning I will take swordmasters over white lions becuase sword masters role more dice.

Just some more thoughts.

danny7865
25-07-2009, 19:45
To continue my general thoughts about the deamon army and why it seems so powerful I believe some of it has to do with the amount of attack dice they get to roll. There is a well known paradig in my area that armies that role more dice tend to do better.
Just some more thoughts.

I think that a major part of problem with demons is people who are playing them's attitudes.A lot of people assume they have no chance and do very little to try and compete. The secret i think is to dictate the game early on i.e shoot seekers spam magic at horrors so you gain a dominance in one of the phases. Then the cc units are much easier to beat.

remember a 5 + ward save only saves 1 in 3 wounds.....

daa6
26-07-2009, 04:52
Agree with Danny7865 !!

People have it in their head that they will loose and loose badly before they have even begun....... and Yes, they have a Ward across the board, but it is 5+, and all they have, in most cases......

Zee
26-07-2009, 08:14
I agree with the above two posts totally

Freman Bloodglaive
26-07-2009, 08:34
In Warhammer (Fantasy and 40K) the game revolves around who can roll the most dice in any stage. Daemons are strong... very strong... very very strong... as well as completely dull and uninteresting (Vampire Counts have far more character) but if you can put them in a situation where you roll a huge amount of dice (repeater crossbows anyone?) then they will die.

daa6
26-07-2009, 10:58
Units that will do well against Daemons......

Fanatics
Skinks "poison + blowpipes/javlins + cheap/expendable"
Repeater Crossbows
Shooting in general...
Big Shooting.. Cannons for big things, Multiple shots for units or others...
"Magic Missiles"....
Spells that mess with their movement...so you move round them ..and use missiles.... :)
Cheap / expendable units to through at them for re-direction... pick a purpose...

Any more.....

BrPrometheus
26-07-2009, 19:09
Just to make sure we keep everyone on target. We are not here to argue whether deamons are beatable or not we are here to discuss tactics against them. I think someone above made a good point that atitude. A never say die, never quit attitude will keep you in the game longer.

Another thing I am noticing is that shooting is coming up overand over again against deamons. The problem I see with shooting is that for most armies the points spent on shooting is largely inneffective. Building a shooting army to beat deamons may be an acceptable way to beat deamons but do the lists expand ina tournament setting to beat the other armies. I am not sure but it bears some thoughts. As for the shooting units I believe that target selection ill be key. Let's take my awefully expensive unit of high elf archers. At 11 points a peice I get 10 models for 110 points. Standin directly across from them is a unit of seekers. I don't have the points in front of me but I believe 5 is about the same points when they take that stupid icon of no charge reaction.

High elves win to go first.
10 shots - 5 hits - 2 1/2 wounds - 1.75 dead seekers.

Seekers move to charge next turn
10 shots - 5 hits - 2 1/2 wounds - 1.75 dead seekers.
Total dead - 3.5 seekers.

Seekers charge no charge reaction
High elves striker first (lets say 2 seekers made it)
4 attacks - 2 hits 1 wound .666 dead seekers

1 seeker strikes back
2 attacks - 1.333 hits - 1 wound
1 dead high elf

Seekers with standard equals high elves with outnumber. push on to next round. Over the long term I give the high elves the advatage here.

So in the case of light cav high elef archery wins.

This said the next favorite assualt unit cmpletely hoses those same archers. There is not need to do the math but the hig elevs will be lucky to put a wound on the khorne dogs before they hit. Even taking 220 points of archers is not likely to do more than kil one 1 khorne dog on the way in. This said how often would I shoot regular archers against the heavy cav in another army. The khorne dog is esentially the heavy cav in this list. The T4 ward save makes up for the lack in armor saves. So to kill the khorne dogs we must use the same tools that we use to kill other heavycav. In my army that is counter heavy cav (dragon princes), chariots, and repeater bolt throwers. But do not waste s3 shots at these guys. I believe that the s3 shots will work against the 4+ ward save of the horrors with herald enough to be effective over time and perhaps even knock a level down. I think they will be completely useless against plagur bearers with herald though. (Bretonian players can take the flaming arrow option though that will rock).

So what I have stated here is some pretty simple math but perhaps the point I am reaching is that traditionally I set my archers down first. Perhaps I should consider setting them down last so they can be matched up against something they can be affective against. The other elements of my army are fast enough to reposition but these guys are fairly static once they are in place.

One other random thought. I set my entire army up on the 6" line instead of 12" line to buy me more time to shoot. (I did put the eagle out at 12" but that was it. even the cav set up at 6". My opponent even went first the last game and I got two full rounds of shooting in before he hit my lines and I was able to detirmine the charges.

BloodHawk
26-07-2009, 20:00
This is a very interesting discussion that I think is highly useful.

I would just like to mention as a point of interest that I have been a strong detractor of Daemons in my area, and build my Lizardmen armies to beat them. However, I recently read the demon book in its entirety and have a newfound respect for daemon players.

If nothing else, I have learned that Daemons are EXTREMELY expensive. In addition to this, other than a few units, the army as a whole is not all that resilient. It has all ready been mentioned but I think it bears repeating. The best way to kill daemons is to mass wounds on their units.

This may sound easier said than done, and believe me it is, but it is not impossible. Here are my top tips against Daemons.
1) Kill the greater daemon
2) Mass wounds on horrors/bloodletters/fleshhounds/flamers
3) Prepare a competent magical defense
4) Take advantage of them being Immune to Psychology (no fleeing for you Mr. Daemon)

Cragspyder
26-07-2009, 20:11
When you first look at Flamers, you think "OMG they hit like a Chaos Knight but they can shoot the crap out of me as well!".

Then you realize they have WS 2.

I think that's the key, to get them in CC somehow with either 1+ save Knights (to handle the stand + shoot) or something quick with high WS, attacks and ItP if possible like Wardancers, Dryads, or Witch Elves (or even Shades with dual HW), though the Stand + Shoot will be murder on those units of course. Once they are in, though, the more Ward saves they have to make, the more they can fail....

Even Saurus Spears have better WS then these and will have a 5+ save vs. the shooting attacks... but they may never catch em...

Anyways, I figure you either get them in CC or cripple their shooting somehow and ignore em (Word of Pain, Rain Lord, Howler Wind, Chillwind, etc). I don't think shooting them (Flamers, I mean) is a good choice.

Urgat
26-07-2009, 21:01
I think that's the key, to get them in CC somehow with either 1+ save Knights (to handle the stand + shoot) or something quick with high WS, attacks and ItP

Thought about that, using squig hoppers, they don't even get a stand and shot reaction, afaik... problem is, they got to get there, and a round of shooting will see to them not doing so, I'm afraid.

Cragspyder
26-07-2009, 23:25
Aye, as usual Urgat, O + G have the least options when they really should have the most options.

Squig Hoppers would be my choice in that situation as well....that or Pump Wagon? Again, like you said they would just get taken out way too fast.

Unfortunately I believe the Flamers would still get a Stand + Shoot if the Hoppers were over half their randomly-generated charge distance, which is even worse.

Well...I guess Doom Diver doesn't have anything better to fire at in the Daemon army unless they brought Bloodcrushers...

daa6
27-07-2009, 02:15
This is turning out to be quite an addiction...... in a good way.

With good ideas/answers, and without any side tracks. :D

AND, NEVER thought i would read it.....
BloodHawk: However, I recently read the demon book in its entirety and have a newfound respect for daemon players.
;) (sorry couldn't resist)

But it is the little things like the Flamers having a WS of 2, that we dont see yet have a big effect... "and a balancing one"

I agree with your comment of placing Missile troops last as opposed to first, and Repeater Bolt Throwers "HURT", and would be the better option against Hounds / Crushers / Beasts and GD's...

What other units can be used to take advantage of Daemons "other than the ranged ones" eg Fanatics...

Briohmar
27-07-2009, 10:16
The three units I most fear when I play against Daemons are the regenerating Plaguebearers, the Flamers and the Hounds. To deal with the Plaguebearers, I always include something with Fire: for hounds I want something that hits hard, and is resilient, and against the flamers, I want a relatively hard hitting unit supported by a cheap unit of scrreners/throw aways:

With my Empire, I use lore of fire on Wizards, and they focus their effort against the PBs, I send a unit of IC Knights against the hounds, but not before at least 1 round of Handgun fire to soften them up (preferably two rounds if do-able.) And against the flamers, I send a unit of Knights and a Huntsmen detachment. The huntsmen screen the knights for the first move, and then charge first, supported by the knights. If the huntsmen are wiped out in the stand and shoot, oh well, the knights still hit. Cannons take out the big things, and nothing but a Greater Daemon can hurt a STank, so use one against us if you have it.

With my Warriors of Chaos, Tzeentch magic focuses on the PBs, Chaos Knights on the Hounds, and Nurgle Knights with dogs to take out the Flamers.

With my Daemons, Seekers go after the Flamers, Horrors go for the PBs, Flamers shoot the Hounds, etc.

This being said, I guess my bottom line point is that you have to prioritize the threats against you when fighting Daemons. I have a good record against them, but its because I also play them, and understand the threats they present, and focus on countering each in turn.

Gaargod
27-07-2009, 19:57
I'd agree, that when you're playing daemons threat priority is hugely important. Greater daemons are killy death, it has to be said, but they're also 25% to 33% of a 2k army. Anyways:

BT: Super killy flying death

Common Loadouts:
Super dude - Immortal Fury, Obsidian Armour, Firestorm Blade
Super dude without flaming - Same as above without flaming attacks
Cheapo version - just immortal fury + armour of khorne
Many attacks - Dark Insanity, Immortal Fury, Armour of Khorne

Assume it will have a 3+ armour save and immortal fury. Combined with T6, small arms fire is just pointless. MR2 means magic has to have a lot of dice lobbed at it to be effective (can still be done mind - Spirit of the Forge works - especially on a Slann with bane head - , as well as high S spells), and you probably have better targets.

Effective ways to deal with it: Cannons and stone throwers are great, probably the best target for them. IF it doesn;t have obsidian armour, a killy character may be able to take it down. It can also be ground down by engaging with high combat res units and a very defensive character (i.e. at least 0+ armour save, good ward/regen - regen being slightly dangerous as it may be flaming). Not easy to pull off mind. It can also be tarpitted, but only for a couple of turns realistically.

Common tactics for them: These things are just crazy good against heavy cav/infantry. As with all rank breaking flyers, these guys can fly up one flank and force your infantry to turn round or face being flanked (which is, incidentally, usually a dead unit). Very nasty when combined with flesh hounds.
Incidentally, it's very super killy ness can be used against them. Lure them with a nice flank charge against infantry, to put them in a bad position. Harder to do against better generals.


Great unclean one: Tarpit of doom.

Common Loadouts:
Trapping of Nurgle and Nurgling Infestation
Trapping of Nurgle and Staff of Nurgle
Trapping of Nurgle (this is more or less always taken)
These guys are usually upgraded to at least lv3 wizards, often lv4

Very occasionally, the Balesword is taken. This makes it rather killy - especially against multiple wound things - but is expensive and precludes Trappings.

10 wounds, T6, regen, 5+ ward, 4+ armour. In other words, a super annoying tarpit. A cannon ball/stone thrower direct hit only does 7/4 wounds to these guys. Yeah...

Effective ways to deal with it: Its only Mv6, so slowing it down can work. As its only (ha) got 4 WS4 S6 attacks, its also not the killiest thing in the world, so massed combat res can work against it. Shooting is very meh. High strength flaming stuff is more effective (i.e. dwarf cannonballs/grudge throwers, or very killy characters).

Common tactics for them: Tarpitting an expensive unit to allow something else to flank them / render them irrevelent. If they manage to flank you (often combined with plaguebearer blocks), their reasonable hittyness and US10 is bad for people.


Keeper of Secrets: Fast and hitty

Common Loadouts:
Allure of Slaanesh (very common), Siren Song (very common), Enrapturing Gaze, Torment Blade
Same as above, swapping gaze and blade for Temptator.
As with GUO, usually upgraded to lv3 wizards, sometimes lv4.

Very often combined with leadership bomb (masque + icon of despair), that's what these things are most dangerous. They're already dangerous enough with 6 WS9 S6 AP attacks, but when things basically can't hit them due to abusing leadership, this is very bad.

Effective ways to deal with them: The least protected of all the GDs, with a mere 5+ ward T6, any sort of high S missile poses a problem. Characters on the other hand... not so much. When you have to take 1 or 2 LD checks on -3 to -5, sometimes on 3 dice, not a lot of things even get to attack them. Combined with their I10 ASF, they're extremely bad for the characters trying to kill him. Playing defensively and relying on CR might win. However...

Common Tactics for them: Due to Mv10 and siren song, these guys can be in combat by turn 1. Usually with heavy cav (who they shred) or expensive infantry. With a BSB nearby, they tend not to take much damage by CR too.

So, they're not easy to deal with by conventional means. However, they usually rely on having an entourage of Icon of Despair BSB (usually herald of tzeentch on disc / HoS on steed + masque. So, instead of trying to engage the KoS, shoot down his friends, and leave them more vulnerable.


Lord of Change: caster/fighter

Um, never usually play against this guy. Kairos occasionally comes up, but he plays suprisingly different.

Anyways, they're basically lv4 all the time. With 5 WS6 S6 attacks and US5 they're actually pretty good for hitting stuff, so don't discount that part.

BloodHawk
27-07-2009, 20:17
AND, NEVER thought i would read it..... Quote BloodHawk: However, I recently read the demon book in its entirety and have a newfound respect for daemon players. ;) (sorry couldn't resist)

...

Lol, and you had better believe me when I say I never thought I would say that either. I do not know why, but after reading the book I could understand how a Daemon player would feel when writing an army list. If nothing else its an interesting situation when someone writes a list and is like "You know what would go nice here, 5 flesh hounds.... But wait....I like having friends" lol I just think its interesting how Daemons have become so persecuted.

Anyways, back on topic. I find the best way to kill flamers to use Terradons and drop rocks. Although, unfortunately not everyone has a similar option. Charging them is a good strategy as long as you can survive the stand and shoot.

I also find that flesh hounds are extremely vulnerable to any type of decent close combat unit. I have lost count of the flesh hounds I have killed with stegadons. As a side note, beast cowers works wonders on Flesh hounds. I realize that they have MR 3, but it can work, and Its very bad for a Daemon player if it goes off.

wingedserpant
27-07-2009, 20:34
I know its not a good overall tactic but I'm personally thinking a large-ish unit of cairn wraiths backed up by some corpse carts could be handy for vampire players. I've noticed that alot of peop,e assume just becasue you can hurt them you can beat them so don't see them as a major threat.

Unfortunetly flamers screw over cairnwraiths more than anything else in the game.

I'm thinking large units of fell bats backed up by a vampire with summon creatures of the night to pin them in place. Black Knights with a blood drinker could also survive the charge.

Lord Inquisitor
27-07-2009, 20:55
I play mono-slaanesh, so my advice is necessarily going to be somewhat specific.

The Anvil of Doom I discovered in a tournament yesterday is somewhat effective agains tdaemons (well, I still beat the guy, but I took quite some damage doing so! :cheese:). Even without invoking ancient power, it can be very useful in sniping those annoying little units - like the Masque - and 2D6 S4 can obliterate seeker units. I had the Masque blown up very early on with this and the Anvil can be hidden from many daemon units. My opponent stuck the Anvil at the other end of the battlefield from my Keeper and my daemonettes just couldn't hurt the anvil even when I did get them into contact.

The Keeper is pretty vulnerable to shooting but watch for Siren Song. I'm not going to let you shoot her if I can so be careful allowing the Keeper to move within charge range of one of your cavalry units in particular - I can block your shooting by forcing you to charge me, and I strike first. Of course with an effective move of 20", this is easier said than done.

Kill the BSB! Assassinate him any way you can. Particularly in a Ld-bomb army, but every Daemon army has a BSB and they're always toting a magic banner. That's a whole heap of victory points (my BSB is just shy of 250 points and she only has T3, a 5+ ward and two wounds! Not hard to kill!)

Obviously, the higher your Ld and immunity to psychology is always good against Daemons (and it helps against undead too, bonus!). Unbreakable units are particularly problematic in many cases.

In mixed armies, I would definately make Seekers of Slaanesh a priority to kill. They're pretty hard hitting but they're really vulnerable to enemy shooting. They'll also be likely toting the Siren Standard, and this is VICIOUS with combined charges as it prevents you from fleeing or standing and shooting any of the chargers.

wingedserpant
27-07-2009, 21:25
This is turning out to be quite an addiction...... in a good way.

With good ideas/answers, and without any side tracks. :D

AND, NEVER thought i would read it..... ;) (sorry couldn't resist)

But it is the little things like the Flamers having a WS of 2, that we dont see yet have a big effect... "and a balancing one"

I agree with your comment of placing Missile troops last as opposed to first, and Repeater Bolt Throwers "HURT", and would be the better option against Hounds / Crushers / Beasts and GD's...

What other units can be used to take advantage of Daemons "other than the ranged ones" eg Fanatics...

Fanatics are great against Daemons as they just don't have anything disposable to get rid of them bar furies. But then goblin and orc magic hurts things like furies.

Juat keep the night gobbos away from woods and they will do damage. Oh and 35pt bolt throwers are amazing. Four or six is a must.

selone
27-07-2009, 21:39
People use seekers of slaanesh? Thats the revelation I've taken from this thread.

Lord Inquisitor
27-07-2009, 21:57
People don't use seekers? They're fantastic, they just take a bit of skill to use right. I mean, I use a mono-Slaanesh list, so I have a self-imposed limit on units, but I'd still take Seekers. Seekers with the banner-of-you're-not-shooting-or-fleeing is a terrific unit particularly if the enemy thinks he can bait you and being fast cav means you can run rings around most enemies - literally!

wingedserpant
27-07-2009, 22:03
Seekers are a special choice right? People will just be surprised to see them and not flesh hounds so have no clue....

daa6
28-07-2009, 02:12
Think you right, wingedserpant, though
one; people will be suprised/jealous you have them, but
two; there more the pen than the sword..... in that there more tactical and unforgiving unlike the Hounds which are blunk "hammer" and to the point.

I think there is a picture coming together here though if i may say so....

Needed the right tool for the job..... Second Question is, does every army out there have a "said tool to do each job" and would this need for people to tailor their lists to cover it or would there be a natural "tool" in most/all Balanced Lists?

(sorry if it seems am taking over, dont mean to!) ;)

TheSanityAssassin
28-07-2009, 07:33
Hmmm....I've found 2 things with my Elves, being that I've had little trouble with Tzeench or Khorne lists (barring the one game where my dice fed me), but had a good amount of trouble with Slaanesh, and an impossible time with Nurgle.

My magic and defence is strong, and my shooting is decent, and I find my big blocks and usually see off most Khorne stuff...they have trouble with my big Phoenix Guard block, and if there isn't Obsidian Armour Caradryan is a great Bloodthirster killer....even if he dies, he'll beat it up. Tzeench I usually drop Vortex Shard fairly early and hit combat with the horrors...they die FAST....throw some Dragon Princes at Flamers and you're allright.

The trouble I've had is when they either take away my ASF or out ASF me....I just can't find anything to take on the big plaguebearer units with heralds who kill my front rank before I can strike....and while I can beat down Daemonettes quickly if I actually get to hit them, the Slaanesh heralds giving them I6 ASF usually takes out my front rank as well. Again the difference is my big 2 Character Phoenix Guard unit (BSB and Caradryan) who can usually out-tarpit most things, but it takes them a couple turns to beat a unit, at which point most of my army is gone...

GUO's are remarkably weak against massed combat res though....4 WS4 attacks usually only lead to 2 dead elves...fewer if I've got my Ward Save, and even if I don't hurt the thing, I'm still up by 3 or 4 on it from Rez...it doesn't ever last that long.

BrPrometheus
28-07-2009, 19:01
The way I have seen the seekers used is in a dual charge. The seekers charge and hold the unit in place the khorne dogs provide the kill.

For slanesh with elves I think it comes down to shooting. With your two big blocks of amped up pheonix guard you probably don't have a whole lot of shooting. You may be able to use magic to add to your shooting with a number of magic missles though.

fubukii
28-07-2009, 19:49
Hmmm....I've found 2 things with my Elves, being that I've had little trouble with Tzeench or Khorne lists (barring the one game where my dice fed me), but had a good amount of trouble with Slaanesh, and an impossible time with Nurgle.

My magic and defence is strong, and my shooting is decent, and I find my big blocks and usually see off most Khorne stuff...they have trouble with my big Phoenix Guard block, and if there isn't Obsidian Armour Caradryan is a great Bloodthirster killer....even if he dies, he'll beat it up. Tzeench I usually drop Vortex Shard fairly early and hit combat with the horrors...they die FAST....throw some Dragon Princes at Flamers and you're allright.

The trouble I've had is when they either take away my ASF or out ASF me....I just can't find anything to take on the big plaguebearer units with heralds who kill my front rank before I can strike....and while I can beat down Daemonettes quickly if I actually get to hit them, the Slaanesh heralds giving them I6 ASF usually takes out my front rank as well. Again the difference is my big 2 Character Phoenix Guard unit (BSB and Caradryan) who can usually out-tarpit most things, but it takes them a couple turns to beat a unit, at which point most of my army is gone...

GUO's are remarkably weak against massed combat res though....4 WS4 attacks usually only lead to 2 dead elves...fewer if I've got my Ward Save, and even if I don't hurt the thing, I'm still up by 3 or 4 on it from Rez...it doesn't ever last that long.

daemonettes are only in5, and a herald grants them asf. They do not get +1in.

daa6
29-07-2009, 11:18
daemonettes are only in5, and a herald grants them asf. They do not get +1in.

fubukii, Speaks the Truth!

So would i be right in thinking that "other than spam" the main HATE to see Units are.....

Flesh Hound
Flamers
Plague Bearers (large units, normally with Herald)

any more....?


and Solutions.......

Briohmar
29-07-2009, 11:54
While this is still going strong, I'd like to bring up another vital point: SYNERGY>

I have heard it said on many occasions that one of the reasons why Daemons do so well is the synergy of the army, and the ability to create a mutually supportive force in your choice of playstyles. On their own, a unit of Fleshhounds, while daunting, is not that hard to deal with, but that same unit of Fleshhounds supported by a closeby unit of Flamers, a 20 strong unit of Horrors, and a Herald of Khorne on a Jugger becomes a significant threat that could wipe out your entire flank in short order.

A Keeper of Secrets is a pretty formidable opponent, but by no means unbeatable, but if that Keepers is a Lvl 4 spell caster, close to a Herald BSB on steed or Chariot, and within range of the Mask, then most armies can watch the center of their armies melt away into the distance due to failed terror tests at LD-(3-5) with three dice discard the lowest.

A Gunline has less than great odds against certain Daemon armies (take mine for instance with 2 characters and 6 units that have a 20" charge range, 2 of which you can't stand and shoot against.) but has a strong chance against other Daemon armies (say for instance 3 X 10 Horrors, Bloodthirster, 5 hounds, and 6 Flamers.)

If you were facing my primarily Slaanesh Army, and focused you efforts on wiping out my 4 Flamers, I would happily put them out into your line of fire, Meanwhile my Fiends and Seekers are ripping through your supporting units without hesitation, and my Furies are hitting your Mages or Warmachines. So the the issue is not empirical. You have to be able to look at the army in total to determine where the linchpins for the synergy are. There is almost no unit in a Daemon army that you can choose to completely ignore, but there are some you can focus less worry on. 10 Strong Horrors are throwing a 50% chance spell once per turn, but aren't going to do a whole lot more. Even the Plaguebearer Anvil may in reality be a diversion, and since it is moving slowly, you shouldn't need to worry about it until turn 3 at the earliest. If you can march block it, it gives you even more time to ignore it.

Priority of effort is so critical that you don't even need to worry about tactics to destroy individual units, but ways to disrupt the synergy of the force.

wamphyri101
29-07-2009, 12:43
Prioritise is the most important thing to do. Yes that large unit of regenerating plaguebearers is scarey, but it wont hit you for a good few turns and alot of armies can move around it, and if you remove its support you can flank like any other unit.

BrPrometheus
30-07-2009, 21:28
I learned a valuable lesson last night. A Khorne Herald on a Jugger is very, very tough with his 0 armor save and 5+ ward. and yet his damage output is much smaller. I would have been better served allocating all of my attacks onto the unit and trying to overwhelm the herald with combat res.

Nathangonmad
30-07-2009, 23:33
Just got back from a yorkshire store torny, I ended up with 3 massacres under my belt, however the one I'm most proud of was versus daemons 1500points. He took, masque, skull taker, bsb khorne +d3 combat res with juggy, 40 horrors, 10 fleshhounds and 3 flamers. And you know how I won? SPAWNYNESS! I managed to vanhels my grave guard into combat with the units of fleshounds containing the Skulltaker and BSB, the champ Killing blowed both his skulltaker in one turn then 3 combat turns later the bsb! The masque died to banshee scream and the horrors were eaten by my ghouls!

Edit: This is the list I took, http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211261