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Nuada
22-07-2009, 14:10
Does anyone take this?

I've got a game coming up against VCs (a 3k game) and i'm tempted to take it. But it costs 75 points, which is almost the same as 4 dispels scrolls (80 points)

My idea was using the vortex shard fairly early on (maybe turn 1) combined with a few bolt throwers and archers. So i'll have two rounds of shooting without him being able to cast any spells. I think most VC players start with small core units (around 10ish), so if i can kill all the rank and file the unit will be down.

What do you think? worth a try?... or would you take dispel scrolls instead

Or would you wait until a later turn to use the shard?

grhino
22-07-2009, 14:31
The larger the game, the more effective the shard well be... I think it's a good item vs. VC's and Lizardmen, especially at 3000 points (you can take two lords, so have a Dragon as well to take out that Vampire is his now vulnerable unit!)

Condottiere
22-07-2009, 15:09
The above is correct; however, consider using it at the critical time, usually somewhere in turns 2-4, when the player absolutely needs his spells.

acsmedic
22-07-2009, 19:07
Bottom line save it until you get your heavy hitters in melee. then use the shard to prevent the VC raises.

Keep your battle line consistent and get everyone that can swing a sword into contact same turn then pop the shard on his turn. gives you 3 rnds of HTH before the VC can raise.

Lion El Jason
22-07-2009, 21:01
Vs tzeench degenerate combo daemon lists t can win you the game.

It generally won't though... they just kill you next magic phase!

Aranel
22-07-2009, 22:12
Don't waste it on turn one, as Captain Jack sparrow says: "wait for the opatune moment..."

What other magic users were you thinking of taking?

Nuada
23-07-2009, 09:13
Don't waste it on turn one, as Captain Jack sparrow says: "wait for the opatune moment..."

What other magic users were you thinking of taking?

Well, i don't really want this to turn into an army list discussion, i was more concerned about the vortex shard. But i can see how it's relevant :)

For magic users i was thinking of taking;

Archmage (lvl 3).... vortex shard.....casting High magic
Mage (lvl 1) ....staff of sorcery........Lore of Light
Mage (lvl 1) ...jewel of dusk, dispel scroll.... Lore of Light


The reason they aren't lvl 4s and lvl 2s is i don't like to put many points into characters, i like to have alot of troops. Also want to avoid taking a dragon.

For lore of light both mages will have burning gaze (d6 str6 flaming attacks) good v's a varghulf, and maybe a corpse cart if he has a necromancer riding it.

Havock
23-07-2009, 15:21
I would at the very leats ake the lvl 1's, 2's. That way they are self sufficient, leaving the pool dice for whatever suits your needs.

EndlessBug
23-07-2009, 15:42
As has been said before, I think it is a FANTASTIC item for a high point battle.

for a 2k battle (or even 3k) I really can't see it being more help than 4 dispel scrolls. Not many armies cast mroe than 4 spells a turn anyway. As has also been said before, the only real use is against VCs, mind you HE's don't suffer so much against them, Staff of sorcery, guardian phoenix and 2 scrolls would probably go further.

With your lvl 3 and 2 lvl 1's, you definately want to make them level 2's. With 2 lvl 1's you're effectively restricting the archmage to 1 spell a turn. At the very least, drop the shard, upgrade the staff of sorcery to a level 2 and give the archmage the guardian phoenix and a scroll. Archie then has 5 dice to play with.

Nuada
23-07-2009, 18:55
With 2 lvl 1's you're effectively restricting the archmage to 1 spell a turn.

I'll have 2 dice for the lvl 1 with jewel of dusk (aiming to cast burning gaze on a 5+)

The other lvl 1 mage uses his die and 1 from pool (same spell)

The archmage has one from pool, his 3, plus d3 from BoS (5 to 7 dice) Seven dice is enough for him, he'll only blow up if i take more :p

Total of 9 to 11 power dice.


That'll do for my magic, i'd like weak magic for this army. Like i said, i'd prefer advice on the vortex shard. Using it later on when combat arrives sounds like good advice though. Thanks anyway ;)

Think i'll try out the shard just for a laugh, and to see the VC players face :)

Havock
24-07-2009, 06:02
It's not the raising that's the problem. The problem is Units of knights (both kinds) dancing across the field, into your flanks.

WhiteKnight
25-07-2009, 04:08
Vortex shard is a killer for dark elf sorceresses. When they roll high on Power of Darkness, great effect if all sorceresses do this spell first, end the magic phase with vortex shard, then look at all of the dead casters!

sulla
25-07-2009, 05:18
Vortex shard is a killer for dark elf sorceresses. When they roll high on Power of Darkness, great effect if all sorceresses do this spell first, end the magic phase with vortex shard, then look at all of the dead casters!
It'd be a pretty stupid DE player who has Power of darkness cast by more than one sorc before using all the dice from another PoD. A single miscast could kill all of them. The shard is a good way of killing off the lvl4 though. Wait till she casts PoD, let her cast and then use it. Very nice.

Condottiere
25-07-2009, 08:08
The Vortex Shard is activated at the beginning of the phase, before they get a chance to cast anything; you may be thinking of the Cube of Darkness.

EndlessBug
25-07-2009, 12:48
wouldn't work for cube either, the cube acts as a scroll. You can only use it when they've cast a spell. Anyone who casts power of darkness uses all the dice immediately.

Aranel
25-07-2009, 19:47
Typical Astro, I was sure you would find some way about talking about your precious lizardmen!

danny7865
25-07-2009, 19:51
I like the book of hoeth v undead.the IR drain magic can be far far worse:P

belgarath97
25-07-2009, 20:26
Does anyone take this?

I've got a game coming up against VCs (a 3k game) and i'm tempted to take it. But it costs 75 points, which is almost the same as 4 dispels scrolls (80 points)

My idea was using the vortex shard fairly early on (maybe turn 1) combined with a few bolt throwers and archers. So i'll have two rounds of shooting without him being able to cast any spells. I think most VC players start with small core units (around 10ish), so if i can kill all the rank and file the unit will be down.

What do you think? worth a try?... or would you take dispel scrolls instead

Or would you wait until a later turn to use the shard?

This item combined with 2 mages one with the staff of sorcery is a killer against VC's, and still leaves room for 2 combat characters, or a lord on dragon. But the combined 6 dispell dice with a +2 to dispell means you can throw one dice at most of his spells to dispell as the average dispell roll for you will be 5. I agree with someone above though and think you need to wait to use the shard until he really needs it. I might still take 2 scrolls on the other mage. Plus give each mage high magic and cast drain magic as many times as you can. He'll be begging for your mercy in each spell phase. :D

Condottiere
26-07-2009, 06:12
Unless the VC player is very unlucky or you get IF, in most cases Drain Magic will be dispelled.

apbevan
27-07-2009, 18:09
Well if they can dispel your Drain Magic then they could have dispelled any other spell cast with the same dice. You have the wizards so you may as well try and cast it.

Against VC is a scroll or a power stone better? Well a surprise drain magic with a stone can go a lot farther but a scroll on a critical Dance Macbre is also important.
Staff of Sorcery combined with the high magics +1 to dispel should be a no brainer.
Vortex Shard is also quite good against VC if you don't need the points else where.

TheSanityAssassin
28-07-2009, 06:57
While I find that I'll situationally wish I didn't have the item, I swear by it in my 2250 tourney list.

To quote my note on it from a Batrep I just posted: "While this item is often controversial, as half the time it won't really be that handy, it's proven to be a big game winner for me, particularly against nasty Undead and Daemon lists. I find my best tactic is to use it ASAP against Blasty casting, IE as soon as he's in range to do damage, where as against more tactical magic it's VERY important to save it to the point when it's use WILL win you the game. (IE 8 Black Knights and 2 Characters turn sideways in front of Swordsmasters, assuming their 9 tries at Vanhels + Book will get them into the flank of something....). That's a priceless moment there."

While it is useless against Dwarfs or low casting lists, scrolls and Staff are just as useless then, and what it does save you from is the freak Irresistible Force spell ripping a unit up. I love just having the knowledge that I can be 100% free from a magic phase once a game. Even if it is just to avoid a panic check from magic missiles. But it's saved my butt numerous times against Vamps, but also against casty Daemons, WoC and brutal Tomb King magic, where it bought me the extra turn I needed to drop a Casket of Souls and bring his magic back into the "manageable with dispell dice" level, and in other games kept the Kings pretty much motionless for a turn.

The biggest effect I find it has though is that when your opponent doesn't expect it it can really change the way they move and position units, and I'm not just talking setting up for Vanhells or Urgency. Even with a small chance of casting, enemies will often move their wizards up, or position their units assuming that their 10 levels of magic can "deal with that chariot" or what not, and when that's stripped away they're left with something VERY expensive exposed. Another one of my favorites was doing it to Dark Elves and leaving a Flying Assassin alone in the middle of the board, as he assumed that his like 10 Magic levels would draw out my dispel dice. He was quickly filled with arrows.

On the other hand, if your opponent knows you have it (players around here are used to me running it) they'll get psyched out waiting for me to use it, and it will throw off their game plan as they worry too much about where there caster will be, and "when they can afford to lose the magic phase", which often lets me wrong foot them enough to really seize the tactical advantage.

That's my 2 cents anyways, but I'm always keen on debating that item....something I do almost every day around here.

It's 100% into my 3000 for 'Ard Boyz though....That plus Teclis should shut down Lots of magic, while still being very blasty....Or that plus a Dragonlord, as I'll still be able to defend the beasty from Magic while it closes.