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EndlessBug
23-07-2009, 10:17
Hey guys,

So I was thinking, how different would the game be if people were forced to take only 1 hero level character and more troops. I for one spend quite a chunk of my 2k lists on characters (between 600-1000 points for Lizards and DE).

Do you think this unfairly restricts certain armies?

You'd have to decide whether to go for:
- Mage
- BSB
- Normal Fighter

Special rules would be that BSBs could be the army general for +10 additional points (yes I know this effectively means you'll chose between a BSB and a Mage, which I think is a more difficult decision).

Other restrictions on 1500 point lists remain the same.

What would your list be?

example list (mine):


Dark Elves

Sorceress - Lvl 2, Tome of Furion, Lifetaker

5 Dark Riders - RxB, Mus
5 Dark Riders - RxB, Mus
20 Warriors - FC, Banner of Murder
5 Harpies
10 RxBs

12 Black Guard - FC, Hag Graef, Crimson Death
5 Cold One Knights - FC, Standard of slaughter
5 Shades - great weapons

2 Reaper Bolt Throwers

TOTAL: 1500 points

Condottiere
23-07-2009, 10:31
In this game, the only way to get magic defence/offence is with a character, and so it's almost a foregone conclusion that if you're allowed only one, you'd select a wizard.

Except High Elves, they have a Gem that makes one of their heroes into a magician.

EndlessBug
23-07-2009, 10:50
Well with only 1 mage available to each side magic wont have that much of an effect on the game. And are you sure that the magical defence of +1 dice and maybe a scroll is worth losing out on a higher Ld, combat res producing general BSB?

There are so many factors,

with only 1 mage you're likely to only have 2 spells. They might be poor ones

You're missing out on higher Ld, better combat res and a tougher to kill general

With so many troops because of this restriction the BSB becomes even more valuable

If you fight dwarfs you've prob only got 1 more power dice than their dispel dice

You'll probably get 1 spell off per turn

you've got a squishy mage, if they kill her/him then they get the mages points +100 because of her being the general.

Armies have access to magic resistance items meaning that 1 mage prob wont be able to touch that one unit (HE - MR 2 banner, MR 1 amy, DE - MR 1-3 on unit champs or master)

I could quite easily change the above list to without losing that much (if any) power:



Dark Elves

Master - Armour of Darkness, (magical AP great weapon, forgotten name), BSB (+10 for general)

5 Dark Riders - RxB, Mus
5 Dark Riders - RxB, Mus
20 Warriors - FC, Banner of Murder
6 Harpies
10 RxBs - shields

11 Black Guard - FC, Hag Graef, Crimson Death
5 Cold One Knights - FC, Standard of slaughter, Null talisman
5 Shades - great weapons

2 Reaper Bolt Throwers

TOTAL: 1500 points

rtunian
23-07-2009, 13:29
vampire counts wouldn't remain competitive with 1 hero in an army

Condottiere
23-07-2009, 13:43
Bretonnians would get the BSB free, and DoW would need to take two, one a general and the other a paymaster.

EndlessBug
23-07-2009, 14:17
Brets - free BSB upgrade and no additional cost for the general thing, but he's the only char allowed. (Brets not allowed magic, like any bret players would chose a damsel over a paladin anyway)

DoW - Chose one

TK - chose one (whichever is chosen is hierophant). I will admitt TKs would suffer a LOT under these rules but it is 1 army out of the lot.

VC could still be competitive just not broken. 1 Vamp with lvl 2 and +1 to cast on ghouls plus the 2+ save armour and a magic weapon. You've still got your fighty character AND a mage.

Love the attitude on the forums, let's pick holes instead of having a go at it. You'd probably find it isnt as bad as you think.

Mullitron
23-07-2009, 14:50
Its a nice idear and some of the best games ive had have been small 500 to 1500 points game swith only one character. Some lists are weaker because of the restrictions but in the end if its only for friendly's who cares.

Keller
23-07-2009, 15:09
I like the idea and would certainly try it out. It would certainly affect some armies more than others, but it would give those players a new way to play and a challange, if nothing else.

Would you be doing away with character rules-restrictions? As in, "you can ignore any army rules on character selection, you just have to have 1 character who will act as the general?" For instance, could Ogres take a Hunter or Butcher, who can normally not be a general. Perhaps you could, but they would maintain rules that units cannot use their Ld, such as the Hunter or Dwarven Slayers....

danny-d-b
23-07-2009, 15:15
just allow deamons to break the game even more

how many horros can I get for 1500 points (with a singel herold) and you only have a scroll caddy max!

The SkaerKrow
23-07-2009, 15:20
I like the intent of it, but in practice it doesn't work. Tomb Kings are suddenly deprived of anything approaching viability, and Daemons of Chaos become even more powerful.

Capping the list at 2 Heroes might be a more viable alternative, as it neither breaks any lists mandatory character compliment nor overemphasizes the power of caster units.

rtunian
23-07-2009, 15:53
VC could still be competitive just not broken. 1 Vamp with lvl 2 and +1 to cast on ghouls plus the 2+ save armour and a magic weapon. You've still got your fighty character AND a mage.

Love the attitude on the forums, let's pick holes instead of having a go at it. You'd probably find it isnt as bad as you think.

right. ghouls with 4 pd to invoke, when every army has at least 2 dd, and most will have 3. yeah, real competitive. you realize you have to raise many ghouls per turn for them to be valid? kind of easy to kill...

although perhaps you're right. vc could just take min zombie units and then put a dreadknight vamp in a blood knight block with the rest of the points and say "meh" to magic phase. that'll sting a bit

Drachen_Jager
23-07-2009, 17:16
I don't take any magic defence under 2k anyhow, so it would be an easy choice for me. I only really feel threatened by lord level mages, the others may do a little damage but in my experience even an unopposed level 2 rarely earns his points back (I play cavalry so I get engaged very quickly, if your magic doesn't tip the balance in 2-3 turns it's unlikely to ever play a significant role).

Keller
23-07-2009, 17:26
right. ghouls with 4 pd to invoke, when every army has at least 2 dd, and most will have 3. yeah, real competitive. you realize you have to raise many ghouls per turn for them to be valid? kind of easy to kill...

although perhaps you're right. vc could just take min zombie units and then put a dreadknight vamp in a blood knight block with the rest of the points and say "meh" to magic phase. that'll sting a bit

You do realize it is possible to play a balanced list for VC that doesn't require raising your units? One need not take minimum models with intent to raise more in order to win, nor must they go for a deathstar unit. There is, in fact, a happy medium to be played.

g0ddy
23-07-2009, 17:27
vampire counts wouldn't remain competitive with 1 hero in an army

I think they would be inclined to take elite cavalry armies...
as opposed to the magic + core troops format.

----

Keller - You're being equally hyperbolic... There's a happy medium to be acquired with all list formats... Magic is not inherently bad...

~ zilla

Keller
23-07-2009, 19:31
Keller - You're being equally hyperbolic... There's a happy medium to be acquired with all list formats... Magic is not inherently bad...
~ zilla
I'm not implying that magic is bad, only that people should look beyond one way to play an army. Too many people think that you can only play one or two lists in order to play competatively and are completely closed off to new ideas. Thus we get these countless threads of (and this extends beyond VC) "I can't have 15 PD, my army is broken!" "Its not broken, just make a 1500 point unit and nothing can stand in your way."

Yes, I acknowledge that these are legitimate playstyles, but they're not the only ways to play, and as such, ideas which deviate should not be decried and denounced as heresey.

rtunian
23-07-2009, 23:04
well keller, i'm only speaking from my personal experience, and even when i run night goblin lists i beat the tar out of vampire troops. the only thing that keeps them in the game from what i've seen is reraising their army.

what's vc got without magic or deathstar build? spamming ethereals? yeah that's real friendly in an environment with limited magic. a preponderance of units that normal opponents won't be able to deal with is no better than a preponderance of points in one unit that normal opponents won't be able to deal with.

i'm telling you a vc army without ethereals, deathstar, or heavy magic is easy to massacre (unless the dice gods smite you, of course).

prove me wrong... post what you think a competitive 1500 point vc list with only 1 character, no deathstar, and no more than 2 ethereal units.

stonetroll
24-07-2009, 00:08
- Herald of Tzeentch on flying chariot with Master of Sorcery and BSB (icon of great dispair)

- As many units of Horrors as I could afford

- 1 unit of 5 Furies to redirect/hunt warmachines

OR

- Herald of Khorne with Armour of Khorne + Firestorm blade + BSB + Icon of Chaos Glory

- Min Bloodletters

- As many hounds/Flamers as possible

See the pattern? :)

Valtiel
24-07-2009, 07:52
Funny, people say Daemons are broken anyway and you complain about that they will be broken in this little scenario? :P

I think it sounds fun, some armies will be harder to do something (like TK) but it would also help against some of the more annoying armies that involve lots of magic and Deathstars etc. Would like to try it out.

EndlessBug
24-07-2009, 08:54
ok, the INTENTION of this was to create more balanced armies accross the board, limiting peoples magic was one way (we all know there are a lot of unbalanced lists based purely on magic). Another was to restrict the chance to take a hero hammer style list. Giving players more units to play with will improve everyones game, you'll run into different issues as a result, therefore improving your skill. Hopefully by doing this people would be more inclined to take less char heavy lists (I'll hold my hands up, my lists tend towards this trend and I'm trying to change it).

I love how some peeps just can't manage to think up a nice balanced list. I'm not saying give your army any massive weakness', just try and take a bit of everything. Trust me the game is so much more fun.

stonetroll

your 2nd list really isn't that bad. hounds are great but don't work wonders alone. being 1500 means 1 unit of flamers. We're all aware they're broken/undercosted.

Well done you've created a magic list. Would love to come up against that list with 2 decent sized HE blocks with MR items or a stupidly fast list.

Vamps aren't un-competitive, yes it restricts them going for insane magic lists, that's half the point. VCs can still function with average magic you know.

On TKs - I think for TKs you can break the rule and have 1 priest and 1 TK, but no additional arcane items (however scrolls are allowed).

Ogres - yes any hero can be their general

p.s. Thanks to all replies (yes even the arsey ones). They help improve on the idea

PeG
24-07-2009, 10:45
One of the things that makes TK suffer is that they have to spend so many points in characters in smaller games which limits their choices for troops. Allowing them to take only one hero instead of minimum two (general+hierophant)might actually be a good thing for them in small games.