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Stronginthearm
23-07-2009, 22:37
Well I've been reading the chaos codex and have been wondering what is the state of the current demon primarchs?

MarshallSam
23-07-2009, 22:45
Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, & Magnus are all obssessed with the great game. As for the others, who knows.

Maidel
23-07-2009, 23:01
Alpharius/ omegron - ones dead, the other isnt a DP as far as I know.

Night haunter is dead (most likely)

Horus is Dead

And fulgrim isnt technically a DP

Mannimarco
23-07-2009, 23:09
angron - alive and well, took part in the first war for armageddon

perturabo - alive and well, hanging out on Medrengard

mortarion - hanging out on his daemon world (similar to barbarus)

night haunter - possibly dead

horus - dead

alpharius - possibly dead

fulgrim - soul is lost, body is possessed (what we think of as fulgrim is only his body)

lorgar - alive and well (at least its never been said hes dead)

magnus - alive and well as a daemon prince

Londinium
23-07-2009, 23:12
Rage, rage, rage. Konrad Curze is dead, deadder than Michael Jackson. Not only does Lord Of The Night confirm this, but if he had faked his death, it would have ruined the whole point of him allowing M'Shen to kill him. He allowed himself to be killed to prove that the Emperor would use methods just as debatable as Cruze himself to achieve an ultimate goal, the Emperor did and Curze was vindicated. Thus one of 40k's most famous quotes.

Maidel
23-07-2009, 23:23
Rage, rage, rage. Konrad Curze is dead, deadder than Michael Jackson. Not only does Lord Of The Night confirm this, but if he had faked his death, it would have ruined the whole point of him allowing M'Shen to kill him. He allowed himself to be killed to prove that the Emperor would use methods just as debatable as Cruze himself to achieve an ultimate goal, the Emperor did and Curze was vindicated. Thus one of 40k's most famous quotes.

But - none of the sources of his death an unbiased - Most of the stuff is reported as if its fact in 40K - this is reported like a news story. Its been left specifically open, but final at the same time.

Not to mention thta cruzes entire idea is flawed on the grounds that he emperor is an animated corpse who cant wipe his own behind - let alone order someones death.:p

Londinium
23-07-2009, 23:26
But - none of the sources of his death an unbiased - Most of the stuff is reported as if its fact in 40K - this is reported like a news story. Its been left specifically open, but final at the same time.

Not to mention thta cruzes entire idea is flawed on the grounds that he emperor is an animated corpse who cant wipe his own behind - let alone order someones death.:p

Indeed, 40k likes to spin the truth and provide lots of biased accounts of events but in Lord Of The Night, Zso Sahaal clearly states that he saw Curze be decapitated, plus the items he and Krieg are fighting over would still be in Curze's possession if he had survived and not been assassinated.

With Alpharius theres somewhat of a doubt about his existance, firstly due to the biased nature of the one account we have of his death and the recent retcon of the existance of Omegon, but with Konrad it's pretty much confirmed the guy is dead.

Maidel
23-07-2009, 23:36
Indeed, 40k likes to spin the truth and provide lots of biased accounts of events but in Lord Of The Night, Zso Sahaal clearly states that he saw Curze be decapitated, plus the items he and Krieg are fighting over would still be in Curze's possession if he had survived and not been assassinated.

What I mean is that the description is comming from someone - rather than reading it first hand.

The first hand description in the codex specfically states that the feed cuts right before the attack.

And if you were faking your own death - wouldnt you give away things that would make it seem more realistic?



PS - please note - I think hes dead - but the fluff does leave it open.

LemmingStampede
23-07-2009, 23:49
They could at some point go "Hah! I wasn't really dead! It was all a ploy!" with Curze. Only problem is, that would involve moving the storyline forward.

So yeah, he's dead. ;)

Maidel
23-07-2009, 23:50
They could at some point go "Hah! I wasn't really dead! It was all a ploy!" with Curze. Only problem is, that would involve moving the storyline forward.

So yeah, he's dead. ;)

Its shrodingers cat!

In the current universe hes neither dead nor alive - until its moved forward - we will never know :D

Dhazzakull
24-07-2009, 06:42
isn't angron banned in the warp since the first war of armageddon?

ryng_sting
24-07-2009, 08:35
Lorgar's a daemon prince. Angron was banished back to the warp for a hundred years a and a day at the climax of the First War for Armageddon.

Night Haunter is dead. People who wish him alive and kicking are rather doing him a disservice: his death was his vindication.

will564752
24-07-2009, 09:24
Fulgrim: His Soul is either lost, or confined in a deep corner of his mind - The Daemon that possessed his body was elevated to Daemon Prince by Slaanesh, following the Heresy he killed Guilliman, is now rumoured to be ruling over a planet of limitless pleasure.

Angron: Elevated to Daemon Prince of Khorne, most notably took part in the First War for Armageddon and subsequently was banished back to the warp for a hundred years and a day (Although the Daemon Codex states that Daemons banished in such a way are usually banished for a thousand years and a day - there is no such thing as 'time' within the warp anyway.. so...!)

He also took part in the 'Dominion of Fire' where he led 50,000 Bezerkers on a rampage which lastest about 200 years. They took around 70 Sectors.

Mortarion: Elevated to Daemon Prince of Nurgle. Currently ruling over the Plague Planet (which he has moulded to resemble Barbarus).

Magnus the Red Cyclops: Elevated to Daemon Prince of Tzeentch following the Burning of Prospero. Has been involved in some plots to destory the Space Wolves since the Heresy. Following the Rubric of Ahriman he ascended the Tower of the Cyclops and vowed as Horus had, that he would see the Galaxy Burn.

The Above Primarchs are only really concerned with the Great Game. (This is why they have hardly ever been seen in major conflicts in real-space since the heresy) They are all constantly fighting for the Supremacy of their God.

Konrad Curze: Was assassinated by the Callidus Assassin M'shen to prove a point! I would say he is certainly dead. The whole point of his death was that it was his vindication. By faking his death it wouldnt be Vindication!

Alpharius Omegon: One was apparently killed by Guilliman the Usurper. It is highly likely however that niether one was killed by Guilliman and both are still at large today. Their allegience is however, unclear.

Perturabo: Ascended to Daemon Prince of Chaos following the Iron Cage incident. He is currently ruling over Medrengard, an impeneterable Daemon World within the Eye.

Horus: His Soul was utterly obliterated by the Emperor. His Body was later destoryed by Abaddon and his Black Legion.

Lorgar: Elevated to Daemon Prince of Chaos. He now rules over the Daemon World Sicarus. His legion are arguably the most active in Real-Space, spreading the holy word of Chaos.

ashc
24-07-2009, 09:38
will564752 has probably given the best, most accurate response on this subject, good job :)

Condottiere
24-07-2009, 19:25
Konrad Curze may have felt vindicated, but there was some indication he saw the future of his legion, and wasn't prepared to be a part of it.

Serebrate
24-07-2009, 23:25
Curze might still be alive in the fact that Chaos took him over at the very last second and forced him to do something.

The reason I think this is because of what happened to Fulgrim. He felt dispair at harming his brother and saw Horus as faulty, yet the forces of Chaos (slaanesh specifically) drove him to kill, and eventually be possessed by a daemon.

I could see such a thing happening to Kurze. Plus, I don't know if an assassin could have killed a Primarch. I know about C'tan blades and all, but Black Library primarchs can literally punch an avatar in the face and choke it, (Hell, Ultramarines can do it too).

stainawarjar
25-07-2009, 00:01
I always thought those last words of Night Haunter was silly. It feels to me like he got stabbed and said all that to make himself look good. Just like Darth Sidious and Tzeentch worshippers - "I meant to do that"

Incognito
25-07-2009, 05:56
Indeed, 40k likes to spin the truth and provide lots of biased accounts of events but in Lord Of The Night, Zso Sahaal clearly states that he saw Curze be decapitated, plus the items he and Krieg are fighting over would still be in Curze's possession if he had survived and not been assassinated.

With Alpharius theres somewhat of a doubt about his existance, firstly due to the biased nature of the one account we have of his death and the recent retcon of the existance of Omegon, but with Konrad it's pretty much confirmed the guy is dead.

Where was Omegon's existence retconned?

Urath
25-07-2009, 11:01
Well, Omegon was only "created" by Abnett in Legion. So, he hadn't appeared in anything beforehand.

Fulgrim - Possessed, soul trapped within his deamonic form. Deamon likely resides in luxury on his deamon world and lavishes like Nero.
Peturabo - Deamon Prince. Resides on Medrengard. Probably works with Dark Mechanicum on a regular basis.
Angron - Deamon Primarch. Has lead incursions into real space in the past, now seems to do nothing.
Mortarion - Deamon Prince. Seems to do nothing. Located on plague world.
Lorgar - Deamon Prince. "Master of the Faith", leads the council on the deamon world of Sicarus and presumably is as a god.
Magnus - Deamon Prince. Resides on the Planet of the Sorcerers, which resembles a corrupted version of Prospero. Works on restoring his Legion and macinating.

Horus - deceased
Konrad Kurze/Night Haunter - deceased
Alpharius/Omegon - One is possibly dead, killed by Guilliman. Arguably, it could have been any Alpha Legionnaire as they all look identical. The survivor presumably still leads the Legion.

The deamon primarchs don't do very much at all, really. Which is understandable. When you have such seemingly unlimited power within the warp, why would you leave it where you must bend your will to the physical universe and, you'll eventually be banished back. Or they think that they're too high and mighty. Who knows, but it is sad and annoying. Perhaps GW will give them some love soon now that the Eye is expanding and the warp scar increases.

will564752
25-07-2009, 11:38
Well, Omegon was only "created" by Abnett in Legion. So, he hadn't appeared in anything beforehand.

True but he obviously had the permission/backing of GW to bring in such a major fluff change.


The daemon primarchs don't do very much at all, really. Which is understandable. When you have such seemingly unlimited power within the warp, why would you leave it where you must bend your will to the physical universe and, you'll eventually be banished back. Or they think that they're too high and mighty.

Understandable indeed if you are as Gods within the Warp. (Although you could argue that taking part in the Great Game fully takes up a Primarchs time, hardly not doing anything at all!) However Daemons are drawn to the Material Universe:



Though often preoccupied by the Great Game of their creators, the Daemons of Chaos lust after the mortal realm. It is here that the Daemons can dominate and destroy, conquer and corrupt, in a material universe that can be permanently changed. For this reason, Daemons are constantly seeking egress into the realm of mortals where they can wreack havoc and increase the power of their master and gain worshippers of their own.

Although the Daemon Primarchs are Technically Daemons its not clear if the same thing fully applies though :)

Urath
25-07-2009, 11:58
What is the "Great Game", exactly? Is it doing what your patron god tells you or is machinising against the other gods or what?

will564752
25-07-2009, 12:15
What is the "Great Game", exactly? Is it doing what your patron god tells you or is machinising against the other gods or what?

Essentially it is just the constant wars between the 4 Chaos Gods. It is each Gods ultimate goal to win the Great Game and the vast majority of their time/effort and consciousness is pre-occupied with winning the Great Game. Even though it is impossible to win (contradictory i know)! For if all other Chaos Powers were obliterated then Chaos would cease to exist.

The Majority of the time when the Gods are forcing a Chaos incursion within the Material Realm or become interested for a short while with some event within the material realm it is ultimately often to give them some advantage in the Great Game. (Eg. If Khorne initiates several massive wars the abundence of Anger and Hatred involved will empower him and therefore his daemons within the warp, giving him an advantage within the Great Game)

Occasionally however when a person, object, civilisation or power comes to power and could eventually or potentially threaten some aspect of the Chaos Gods' power, the Chaos Gods will temporarily ally to thwart such a threat, such a time was the rise of the Emperor. The Gods were distracted for an instant from the Great Game to damn Horus, blessing him with powers in order to allow him to bring the Emperor down. As soon as Horus was set upon the path of damnation the Gods betrayed and backstabbed each other and the Great Game continued.

The Great Game is also mirrored in the Material Realm and in Warp Overlaps (Eye of Terror/Maelstrom) by the Gods followers. This is essentially what the Daemon Primarchs are up to. Their purpose (the same as their masters) is simply to win the game which is impossible to win. :)

Londinium
25-07-2009, 22:20
Curze might still be alive in the fact that Chaos took him over at the very last second and forced him to do something.

The reason I think this is because of what happened to Fulgrim. He felt dispair at harming his brother and saw Horus as faulty, yet the forces of Chaos (slaanesh specifically) drove him to kill, and eventually be possessed by a daemon.

I could see such a thing happening to Kurze. Plus, I don't know if an assassin could have killed a Primarch. I know about C'tan blades and all, but Black Library primarchs can literally punch an avatar in the face and choke it, (Hell, Ultramarines can do it too).

The way I've always viewed Primarches is that while they are supremely able at combat, they cut and bleed just like normal humans. Remember that when Fulgrim fought the Avatar, he got pretty battered by it, indeed it's mentioned in the book even a few months later that he was still recovering from his wounds. Thus if Curze just sat there and didn't attempt to resist M'Shen, she could easily have loped his head off.

To reconcile this with the Primarches being able to wade through armies, imagine them with a form of 'spidey sense' a split second quicker reaction times than most mortals that allows them to avoid most blows and turn killing blows into just glancing blows. Combine this with their martial skill, incredible strength and ability with weapons and you have the killing machine that is the Primarches, while still allowing someone like a Callidus Assassin to take down a Primarch if the Primarch allowed it.




Where was Omegon's existence retconned?

As the above poster said, retconned into existance, he'd never existed in the background before Legion. The story I referred to when Guilliman killed Alpharius was written before the existance of Omegon, so it could be viewed in various ways these days. It could have been Alpharius, it could have been Omegon, it might never have even happened, or both of them could have died on that planet thus playing off the story theme that even thought the Alpha Legion lost their primarch their tactics still beat the Ultramarines.

Legion has just made the Alpha Legion even murkier than it was before, which is of course it's intention.

Btw whats this Dominion of Fire thing? 50,000 Berserkers ? I'd be surprised if there were 50,000 Chaos Marines let alone 50k berserkers.

Urath
25-07-2009, 22:27
Well, considering M'shen saw Kurze's head roll across the floor and he had no reason to lie then yes, it is possible. It's been done. All of this ******** that "Kurze may not be dead". Go ead "Lord of the Night". *********** hell.

Edit: I'm actually very ill, so I've been extremely grumpy. Sorry.

Maidel
25-07-2009, 22:36
Edit: I'm actually very ill, so I've been extremely grumpy. Sorry.

Im just counting the stars trying to work out what those words are... :p

Urath
25-07-2009, 22:49
Well, I'm sure you're having a lot of scrabble fun sorting out that riddle ;)

will564752
25-07-2009, 23:33
Btw whats this Dominion of Fire thing? 50,000 Berserkers ? I'd be surprised if there were 50,000 Chaos Marines let alone 50k berserkers.

Theres a paragraph on it on page 36 of the Chaos Marine Codex. Basically in the mid-38th Millennium Angron led 50,000 Bezerkers (Yea seems a bit elaborate to me too!) on a killing spree which lasted 200 years. Virtually wiping out and crippling Imperial Rule in 36 Star Systems.

After Angron got bored and went home, rebellion, Chaos worship and civil disorder plagued 70 surrounding sectors for another 250 years.

4 entire Space Marine Chapters, 2 entire Titan Legions, and over 30 Imperial Guard Regiments took no less than 700 years to bring around 90% of the affected Sectors back into the Imperium. So all in all not a bad result for Angron :)

Mannimarco
25-07-2009, 23:42
angron has been the most active by far of the primarchs it seems

will564752
25-07-2009, 23:56
angron has been the most active by far of the primarchs it seems

The most active in Realspace it would seem yes. The Others have more pressing matters to attend to within the warp though, as I explained earlier :)

Urath
26-07-2009, 10:39
But we don't get to read about that: these ancient, accursed heroes who have fallen to the dark, allure of Chaos. I for one want to hear about their exploits conquering, fighting and just their general actions, right here in realspace. Yes, yes they have the whole "Great Game"... Wait a second....

I've figured it out.

The reason we never see the Primarchs, the reason why they're stuck in at home all the time playing "The Great Game"....

They're WoW addicts:eek:

Condottiere
26-07-2009, 11:15
That would explain the Dark Forces that plot to take over the Warhammer Universes.