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White_13oy
24-07-2009, 18:52
I am going to start a dwarf army, but would like to know what it considered cheese or just not fun. I know one of the is the Thorek Gunline, which I wont be doing, actualy the complete opposite. I will be doing an all melee army. no warmachines, no gunners. Only war machine I would think of doing would be the flame cannon, because it just looks awesome. So what is considered bad combination of runes or units? My lord at this moment in pre-buying setup is going to be a Daemon Slayer.

the Nurge
24-07-2009, 18:59
A heavy gunline is the only thing that I can think of that would be considered very "cheesy" from the dwarfs. Dwarfs do have very strong melee units, however you are going to have a hard time not getting outmaneuvered, especially with no anvil. I would strongly advise against the slayer lord. You won't be able to take any damage with him, apart from having toughness 5, and I think a rune can give him a 4+ ward save. He would be very easy to assassinate.

grumbaki
24-07-2009, 19:06
Nobody is going to yell cheese at you for going with an all close combat army, so you really don't have to worry about that. But if you are, a good rule of thumb is to not take too many of the same 'elite' choice. For example: most dwarf players agree that hammerers are one of our best choices. They are stubborn, have great stats, and for just 13 pts they can have shields too. So don't take 4 units of them.

Still, with all close combat armies like warriors of chaos will chew through you, so be warned. But, if you do want to go all fighty though, then swap the flame cannon for a gyrocopter.

Flame Cannon: Template weapon that lacks range (can easily hit your own troops). By itself, it is very vulnerable.

Gyrocopter: Flyer. Can be used to hunt down mages who are by themselves, march block enemies and see off units of skirmishers/fast cav (which you will find impossible to defeat without any ranged attacks)

For more advice from some good dwarf players, try out Bugmans Brewery.

http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/index

It's a great warhammer-dwarf site, and if you post your army list there you can be sure that you'll get alot of people who will be willing to help you with it.

Ozorik
24-07-2009, 19:08
Be very careful about what people say regarding Dwarf armies, most of them clearly dont know how to handle Dwarves properly.

Gun lines dont work. Yes they are great against people who dont know how to handle them but against someone who does it will be all over very quickly. Plus they are quite tedious.

'Pure' melee dwarves do work but you need to build your army in quite a specific way. You will want the rune of Strollaz and an anvil to provide you with mobility backed up with at least 1 gyrocopter and some miners to deny your opponent as much mobility as you can (and to harass his line). The rest of your points need to be spent on large (20+)infantry blocks, perhaps with some small flanking units of slayers/GW warriors.

This works quite well but it has its weaknesses, most obviously the anvil which will be left very vulnerable on your back line.

What I favour is a mixed army, focused on lage blocks but with enough fire power to counter specific threats.

I run 2 warrors blocks (always equip your large blocks with sheilds), a small flanking unit of longbeards with great weapons and a small flanking unit of slayers. this gives me a solid battle line that is very hard to crack, even chaos knights tend to bounce off.

In support I run 2 bolt throwers (Ro penetrating x2 and 1 Ro burning, both with engineers) and a grudge thrower (Ro accuracy and Ro penetrating). I also run 10 quarrellers occasionally, they do tend to take up a lot of space though. These work to bring down single tough targets and decimate infantry respectively. A gyro is a must have in a Dwarven army IMO, extremely useful against any unit with low T (especially long lines of missile troops) and a handy march blocker. In every game I have had recently my gyro has cleared away nearly every enemy missile unit, he can even melee fairly well if war machines are annoying you; In my last game a single gyro killed or broke 20 handgunners, 2 great cannon and a helstorm rocket launcher.

I wouldnt use a deamon slayer as a lord, he cant have any armour or any protective runes which makes him an easy target, even though he does have t5. I always take a lord with far,far to many runes(but he is extremely hard).

One final thing that I will say, no matter the army, always include a dragon slayer with no equipment at all. He is a complete bargain at 50 points.

Keep him hidden from enemy missile fire and use him to tie up large/expensive S3 units without poison (or a combat character). His T5 will keep him there all game and if you manage to get him into a unit of knights his S6 will eventually wear them away. I love my dragon slayer.

GodSlayer
24-07-2009, 19:09
Nah, the slayers only have weapon runes.
I like these lords, but gamewise, a Dwarven Lord is more influential. Especialy on shield bearers.
But, it can be done. You'll have a hard time against really fast moving units.

Anyways, like the Nurge said, there's no real cheese in this army. Except for Thorek, but hey, he's in all the battle, no wonder he's so good. Soooooo much experience.

SuperArchMegalon
24-07-2009, 20:35
The Slayer Lord is the least played option in the entire book. He's just bad - you can't give him ANY protection, only weapon runes. You should look at the regular Dwarf Lord for your army. He can at least the the MRoChallenge...

An all melee Dwarf army would be tough. Against any of the newer armies the general consensus by Dwarf players is that you have to take gunfire just to compete. A 13 point Hammerer is good until you realize that a 15 point Sword Master carves you up every time. How will you deal with units like these with no shooting? Good luck, anyway, it should be a fun army and an interesting challenge.

EDIT: If it must be all melee, I'd recommend taking at least 3 units of Warriors (I like 23+), 2 units of Hammerers (I'd take 15 with a Thane equipped to kill and the RoBattle+RoStoicism, and 20 with RoBattle and your Lord), a large unit of Ironbreakers with BsB in the center with MRoGrugni, and one unit of Slayers. With all those special choices not going towards war machines and LD10, there's no reason to take Longbeards. I'm not sure how the points are, but you should be able to do it.

leeoaks
24-07-2009, 22:37
i think the master rune of challenge is great for combat lists. you need to force your opponent if possible to move to where you want him. This is one of many ways to achieve this.

Grimstonefire
24-07-2009, 23:26
I would say an all melee army without even missile units might struggle a fair bit.

Only advice I can give that hasn't been said already is to play a few games with proxy models until you get a feel for how well this would work.

Generally speaking you will need big units at least 25 models imo.

If I had to take only one war machine it would be an organ gun.

SuperArchMegalon
24-07-2009, 23:28
Seconded on the Organ Gun. You need something to deal with skirmishers and fast moving units. The MRoChallenge won't work against Daemons, for example, and their Seekers, Screamers, and Furies are all points the enemy will never lose without an Organ Gun. The Flame Cannon is useless here.

In fact, the Flame Cannon is best against armies you shouldn't struggle with anyway - other slow-moving, but low LD armies. I'd consider an Oathstone or two for Thanes.

Ozorik
25-07-2009, 00:35
Against any of the newer armies the general consensus by Dwarf players is that you have to take gunfire just to compete

Not in the least. I beat the overall second place GT deamon army with my Dwarves, which has 4 ranged weapons (including my gyrocopter). Aside from that my Dwarves do well enough, the only army I have found hard to beat so far was one comprised almost entirely of blood knights.

The MRo challenge is tricky,I never bother with it in fact.

While it can be very good it is very situational and it can be 'declined' additionally a fair number of armies/troop types ignore it anyway.

That siren thingy that slaneesh deamons have is so much better.

Korhil-WLC
25-07-2009, 04:01
Would definately recommendan organ gun to deal with skirmishers, fast cav etc.

Also a flame cannon will be close to useless if you plan on advanceing due to its low range

SuperArchMegalon
25-07-2009, 05:05
Not in the least. I beat the overall second place GT deamon army with my Dwarves, which has 4 ranged weapons (including my gyrocopter). Aside from that my Dwarves do well enough, the only army I have found hard to beat so far was one comprised almost entirely of blood knights.
Wow, that sounds like it must have been quite an impressive victory! What I meant in my post is that you need at least a little, which is what you had. I'm just going by what the folks over at Bugman's Brewery say :angel:. Not that I haven't tested it myself - I find taking some gunfire improves my chance of success quite a bit.

White_13oy
25-07-2009, 07:35
Ok, well, the organ gun was my second choice of war machines if I had to take one. I build a Dwarf Lord with Ro Cleaving x2, MRo Kragg the Grim, MRo Adamant, Ro stone, Ro Preservation. So he is str 8 and toughness 6, immune to KB and poison with a 3+ save. is this a decent build. He sounds mighy fun to me. i'll put up a list soon to seen what you guys think. I relly appreciate all the advice.

Korhil-WLC
25-07-2009, 07:49
Ok, well, the organ gun was my second choice of war machines if I had to take one. I build a Dwarf Lord with Ro Cleaving x2, MRo Kragg the Grim, MRo Adamant, Ro stone, Ro Preservation. So he is str 8 and toughness 6, immune to KB and poison with a 3+ save. is this a decent build. He sounds mighy fun to me. i'll put up a list soon to seen what you guys think. I relly appreciate all the advice.

I prefer

Lord, Shield Bearer, Rune of Stone, MRo Kragg the Grim, Rune of Cleaving, MRo Spite, GW.

Str 7 is all you need to kill chariots, and are still -4 AS.

You also have a 1+ AS & 4+ Ward.

Being on the shield because you are a single model with US3 you are immune to Killing Blow.

Harry
25-07-2009, 08:09
Ok, well, the organ gun was my second choice of war machines if I had to take one. I build a Dwarf Lord with Ro Cleaving x2, MRo Kragg the Grim, MRo Adamant, Ro stone, Ro Preservation. So he is str 8 and toughness 6, immune to KB and poison with a 3+ save. is this a decent build. He sounds mighy fun to me. i'll put up a list soon to seen what you guys think. I relly appreciate all the advice.

My advice would be to start with the armies story rather than the stats.
Who is your Lord? what is his back story? where is his mountain strong hold? What is the history of this realm?
Are they constantly fighting against Skaven underground or Orcs above ground. Do they have an abundance of raw materials and engineers or are they the desperate remnants of a once great clan, etc, etc, Let these choices influence your choice of runes and warmachines. When all your choices are theme linked there is no choice that should be considered 'cheese'. Even a gunline is not cheesy if the story is about an stronghold of engineers who rely on thunderers after the, once fought, great battle where the hold would have been overrun had it not been for one small unit of thunderers who held the line at the very gates of the hold as the bodies of there enemies piled high in front of them

I'm rambling now but you get my point.

White_13oy
25-07-2009, 17:10
Hmmm, sounds like a good way to go Harry. I have done that for my Khornate WoC and Tomb Kings. Need to start reading alot more about dwarfs to get the feel of their thinking and ideology.

Freman Bloodglaive
25-07-2009, 20:43
For the record, the combination of MRune of Kragg with a rune of might and rune of snorri spanglehelm is rather tasty. Strength 6 against toughness 4 or less = 2+ to wound, strength 10 against toughness 5+ = 2+ to wound and with +1 to hit no less. Only 70 points too. Leaves 55 points to spend on protection. I'd go for shield bearers, rune of stone, rune of spite and rune of the furnace. Being immune to flaming attacks means that such things the first metal spell won't hurt you, which is good.

I'd love to see a slayer character with the rune of smiting and a rune of might.

Ozorik
25-07-2009, 22:05
Runic weapons for slayers isnt a good idea as they lose their slayer axes rule and they just aren't suriviable enough to justify the extra points cost.

sulla
25-07-2009, 23:28
I will be doing an all melee army. no warmachines, no gunners. Only war machine I would think of doing would be the flame cannon, because it just looks awesome. So what is considered bad combination of runes or units?Bad combination of units? Probably all melee. Don't overlook the role shooting has in an infantry army at restoring some of the initiative you lose with your slow ovement and lack of magic strike power.

Without guns, you may never get a charge except on fast cav/other expendable units. A couple of gun units can wipe out those disruption units and bring it closer to a unit on unit fight which your stunties do quite well at.
Similarly, with no artillery, you are allowing dragons to flank/rearcharge you and guaranteeing you take chariot and steam tank charge. Take at least one cannon 2 IMO). 2 cannons and 2 units of thunderers/crossbows hardly makes a gunline, but it does give you a better chance of getting favourable matchups in combat.

Ozorik
25-07-2009, 23:51
Cannons have never performed well for me, 2 bolt throwers are cheaper, can cover a wider area of the board yet still threaten large targets almost as much as a cannon.

The problem that I have with missile units is their footprint, they just take up too much room. Plus they invariably end up getting charged by fast cav and killed.

1 small unit has its use but I definately wont use more unless you expect to see a wolf rider horde.

Things to avoid:

Rangers
Large blocks of GW warriors
Runic weapons on slayers

Things to seriously consider getting:

Large (20+, ideally 25) units of warriors with sheilds
Gyrocopter
Dragon slayer

Everything else is perfectly acceptable depending on your play style.

Charistoph
26-07-2009, 01:04
My advice would be to start with the armies story rather than the stats.
Who is your Lord? what is his back story? where is his mountain strong hold? What is the history of this realm?


How would you build a Dwarf army who has lost their hold, have committed themselves to wandering until they can get it back, so don't have the resources to maintain a lot of engineering and black powder work, but have learned how to do traveling smithing and rune engraving?

P.S. Apologies for slightly derailing the thread, but I thought it better to bring it up here instead of starting a new thread.

lcfr
26-07-2009, 04:36
I don't care what anyone says, but without warmachines you'll be hard pressed to deal with badsh*t and bigsh*t that will just mangle your infantry blocks.

Nowadays dwarfs ain't what they used t'be...I find our combat blocks don't stand up very well to our enemies' own combat blocks, and so we need to rely on our toughness/high AS/SCR factor to pull through. That said, if your blocks need to go toe to toe with an equal sized enemy block or a monster, they will probably lose.