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View Full Version : Re-roll all missed hits VS. Re-roll all hits



NakedBarbarian
25-07-2009, 02:36
Two characters are in combat.

The attacking character has an item which allows them to re-roll missed to hit rolls in combat

The defending character has an item which forces the attacking character to re-roll all successful to hit rolls in combat

What order does this happen

1. Attacker re-rolls innitial missed hits, then has to roll to hit again?

2. Attacker re-rolls successful hits, than re-rolls all missed hits?

It seems either way one persons magic item is completely invalidated whilst giving the opponent the unfair advantage. This caused a slight cafuffle last night, I say slight because we resolved the dilemna with a gentlemans 'roll-off', which I won, but it still left a bitter after-taste in my opponents mouth and made me feel guilty.

So is this just a game glitch or is there a proper sequence of events? I would very much like to have a follow-up conversation with my opponent so that we can come to an amicable resolution and the dispute solution can be officially written into our club rules charter (we have an official written charter with every single rules dispute to ever happen at games night as a final and comprehensive answer to finish ALL arguements under pain of suspension).

As always highly appreciated
NB

Condottiere
25-07-2009, 03:00
As I recall, you can only recast die once.

Which items were used?

NakedBarbarian
25-07-2009, 03:37
I was using my friends HE's - High elf noble had the Golden shield - all successful attempts to hit he bearer must be re-rolled.

He had Bloodthirster with Immortal Fury skill.

We had a gentlemans roll off which i won - I proceeded to slay his expensive Bloodthirster with the Sword of Sea Gold - he didn't contest and was all smiles - but i could tell my mate was putting up a facade and was not happy about the results. I felt bad for winning through what i considered false means and in my mind cheating as we couldn't find a solution in the BRB.

There was no argueing about the result but it did leave a sour taste in everyones mouths. Games nights are usually a blast and this was a damper in my eyes.

Damocles8
25-07-2009, 04:22
You could re-roll all the dice once....or just say the re-rolls cancel out

Tuch
25-07-2009, 04:27
I knew I'd seen it before. The Horde of Chaos FAQ (which was valid in 7th edition so I see no reason to discredit it) says to re-roll all misses then to re-roll all hits. It was referring to someone with hatred attacking another wearing the armor of damnation.

NakedBarbarian
25-07-2009, 04:47
Thats was my interpretation - my mates was that after the innitial attack he should re-roll all hits, then re-roll all misses.

I guess either way the cookie crumbled someone was gonna get screwed over.

havoc626
25-07-2009, 04:52
Going entirely by RAW, and ignoring some of the stupid decisions that GW has made, you would roll attacks, then pick up all dice and roll again. Due to the re-rolls rules, no die can be re-rolled more than once.

You can easily just roll the dice once, as the two abilities effectively cancel each other out, but agree with your opponent how you will play this before you start playing and stick to that throughout the game.

Drachen_Jager
25-07-2009, 05:08
Yeah, Havoc, re-roll all dice at the same time. Or just roll once, since re-rolling everything is kind of silly.

NakedBarbarian
25-07-2009, 05:15
Yeah I agree with re-rolls cancelling each other out. I will present this to everyone to write into our rules charter.

Thankyou everyone

Drachen_Jager
25-07-2009, 05:20
It's not like you have to add it as a house rule, you have to just read all the pertinent rules and it's pretty clear that this is how it's to be handled. Of course as a club you could decide whether to always re-roll the whole lot or not, since statistically it makes no difference and just wastes time to do it the technically correct way.

WLBjork
25-07-2009, 07:40
I knew I'd seen it before. The Horde of Chaos FAQ (which was valid in 7th edition so I see no reason to discredit it) says to re-roll all misses then to re-roll all hits. It was referring to someone with hatred attacking another wearing the armor of damnation.

That was wrong when they wrote it, and has since been superceeded anyway (can't remember where though).

I always say reroll all dice, as the final roll could be significantly different to the initial roll.

Kal Taron
25-07-2009, 08:41
Yep, unless you have a houserule that the re-rolls cancel each other out, re-roll all dice. That's the correct way and although it makes no difference statistically, it can make a great difference in a specific event. And both players feel like their items have done something.

rtunian
25-07-2009, 14:41
make sure you don't reroll hits that were originally misses...
example:

attacker rolls 3 hits and 1 miss
attacker rerolls 1 miss per attacker's rules and gets 1 hit
attacker rerolls 3 hits per defender's rules and gets 1 hit and 2 misses
result is 2 hits and 2 misses

you do not ever reroll a die that has been rerolled already. so a miss that becomes a hit can not possibly become a miss again.

theunwantedbeing
25-07-2009, 14:53
Two characters are in combat.

The attacking character has an item which allows them to re-roll missed to hit rolls in combat

The defending character has an item which forces the attacking character to re-roll all successful to hit rolls in combat

What order does this happen?


This is so simple it seems to go right over the heads of everyone.

You roll to hit.
You pick up all the attacks that missed and put them to one side to be re-rolled. As per the attackers ability to re-roll missed attacks.
You also pik up all the attacks that hit and put them to one side to be re-rolled. As per the defenders ability to re-roll attacks that hit.

You then roll the dice that you put to one side and this is the final result.
So you literally roll the dice, then pick them all back up and roll them again.

So simple most people don't even realise iits how you solve the issue they seem to see.

Condottiere
25-07-2009, 15:24
Or, you agree to roll only once, once you've figured out that both rules essentially neutralize each other.

theunwantedbeing
25-07-2009, 15:30
Or, you agree to roll only once, once you've figured out that both rules essentially neutralize each other.

Rolling them twice stops any arguments as the second roll is final and cannot be debated at all.
So you may as well roll twice, its not like your in a hurry is it?

Condottiere
25-07-2009, 15:36
On a psychological level, I would be very unhappy if it turns out the second series of casts is a lot worse than the first one, in this particular case, because it's not a couple or half the die that are re-rolled, it's all of them.

theunwantedbeing
25-07-2009, 16:08
On a psychological level, I would be very unhappy if it turns out the second series of casts is a lot worse than the first one, in this particular case, because it's not a couple or half the die that are re-rolled, it's all of them.

Yeah I dont like it on a "psychological level" either when the dice dont fall in my favour.

Braad
25-07-2009, 17:42
I actually don't even like it when the initial roll was not in my favour... but I guess that's just the game :)

I agree with unwanted, the situation is just plain simple. Nowhere does it say one item goes before the other, so all re-rolls are done at the same moment.

Sarah S
25-07-2009, 17:44
Absolutely.

Hell, do them one at a time if you like, just do them all.

Caboose123
25-07-2009, 22:28
Seems wasteful to re-roll every single dice when you could just roll once...

The sensible thing would be to just have their effects cancel each other...
...
...
...?

Chipacabra
25-07-2009, 22:49
Seems wasteful to re-roll every single dice when you could just roll once...

The sensible thing would be to just have their effects cancel each other...
...
...
...?

If you agree BEFORE the first roll to skip the reroll, then there's no problem, sure. But because of secret items, you may not know until after the dice are rolled the first time that both players have reroll powers. In that case, it's actually a bad idea to let the first roll stand, because it's probably going to better than average for one side or the other and there will be bad feelings. So, the first time in a game it comes up, stick with the rules strictly as written.

When the situation comes up again later in the game and both players know ahead of time that it's going to happen, then yeah, you can just agree to skip the first roll to save time.

Necromancy Black
25-07-2009, 23:40
I like rolling twice, it's feels more complete and I like the idea of two items or abilities causing such chaos in a fight. Thus I will always roll twice and insist my opponent does as well.

Sarah S
26-07-2009, 00:56
Yeah, I would definitely do the same.

NakedBarbarian
26-07-2009, 05:07
Meh, why vexaciously make it more complicated than it should be? I couldn't be bothered re-rolling that many times, i think the abilities cancelling each other out is the fairest option.

On a side note boy am I tired of playing against BT's with Immortal Fury are there any BT's in the godforsaken realm of chaos that can't reroll missed hits??!!

Sarah S
26-07-2009, 05:23
Only the really stupid ones.

rtunian
26-07-2009, 13:41
If you agree BEFORE the first roll to skip the reroll, then there's no problem, sure. But because of secret items, you may not know until after the dice are rolled the first time that both players have reroll powers.

*snip*

When the situation comes up again later in the game and both players know ahead of time that it's going to happen, then yeah, you can just agree to skip the first roll to save time.

qft
10char

Shas'O Vash
27-07-2009, 04:07
This situation is actually addressed in FAQ's. See the Wood Elf FAQ, page 3: "Remember, you may never re-roll a re-roll. It is pretty clear then that one item allows you to re-roll misses, while the other forces you to re-roll hits. In either case, the second result stands, as it cannot be re-rolled."

The technical correct way to resolve this situation is to roll the dice, and then immediately pick up all the dice and roll them again. As this seems a bit silly, just having the two affects cancelling each other out and only rolling once would make more sense; just make sure that your opponent knows your intentions before rolling the dice the first time.

However, in a closed list game where the affects from both sides would probably be revealed only after the dice have already been rolled the first time, you're probably best with just re-rolling everything and moving on.

505
27-07-2009, 20:33
RAW you throw all dice pick them up and reroll all of them and thats how it ends. but my opponents ussually agree that throw and let them go