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Charistoph
25-07-2009, 19:17
Most armies have a Core unit of infantry that make it in to every army build. Sometimes this is forced (clanrats), and other times it's because it's the best option. I have seen certain armies being denounced for spending, or being forced to spend, to much on their core Core unit of infantry.

I know no army is built the same, but most follow a basic characteristic of being able, and almost required, to field big blocks of infantry (20+).

My question here is then, how much can one justify, on average, putting in to a standard core unit of infantry for most armies? How much is to much?

Mireadur
25-07-2009, 19:26
I guess you are talking about tournaments so i have no advice there. In friendly games though, the more core the better. Not only they make for more realistic battles but they balance the game on itselves making it way more close and fun for both parts!

Griefbringer
25-07-2009, 19:38
One recommendation I have heard quite a lot is to avoid placing more than 300 points into a single unit.

Charistoph
25-07-2009, 20:06
I guess you are talking about tournaments so i have no advice there. In friendly games though, the more core the better. Not only they make for more realistic battles but they balance the game on itselves making it way more close and fun for both parts!

True, true, but I'm talking about the individual unit blocks, not as the army's percentage as a whole as Core.

Bloodknight
25-07-2009, 20:18
Taht depends totally on the unit type in question. Some are better in large units, others are better in small ones.

A couple of examples:

I am used to spending about 275 points per block on infantry. That is because I play Tomb Kings and DoW, and Skeletons as well as Pikemen need numbers to work, especially since the trend seems to be that the newer armies get pretty killy troops that can easily let a 20 model block of skeletons crumble to nothing in one turn which defeats their purpose as a tarpit, so I take a couple more.

Chaos Marauders, Orcs or Empire units on the other hand cost maybe 150-200 points for a good unit of 20 to 25.

Chaos Warriors and Saurus work best in smaller units that will probably be around 200 points, too.

I am not too familiar with Elves, but I think the Dark Elf spearmen can also easily field big units because they are pretty cheap.

Vandelan
25-07-2009, 20:32
I am not too familiar with Elves, but I think the Dark Elf spearmen can also easily field big units because they are pretty cheap.

As a DE player, I always play blocks of 20 Warriors (four ranks of five) with the full loadout, putting them slightly over 150 points.

Warriors are amazing units and worth spending points on. They're very cheap for what you get, but it is wise not to spend too many points on huge (bigger than 20 in my book) blocks.

Moral of the story: Play core at a reasonable price, but don't play too big (even if it still seems reasonable).

Condottiere
25-07-2009, 21:42
DoW Core troops really do make the army, considering we have all the basic troop types, including cavalry, so our anvils and hammers can come out of there.

For most other armies, a reasonable amount per core unit is wiser, since most of them have Special selections that can bring more bang for the buck.

Gaargod
25-07-2009, 22:05
Depends on army build really. A lot of races can do all cav/cav heavy armies, so they would obviously not be taking big blocks of core.

The core varies greatly in use too. Ogres for example have armies of ~50% or more core sometimes, with MSU of ironguts/bulls. Skaven obviously have to sink a lot of points into core, so they tend to make them reasonable.
Whereas daemons, as their specials rares and characters are just crazy, often stick in around 441pts in core (3x10 horrors with standard+icon of sorcery). Lizardmen too get options of not putting a lot in core, just some skinks for general usefulness and cheap, and high elves often just take the mandatory unit(s) of 10 archers

Condottiere
26-07-2009, 10:17
That's because High Elven core units have trouble dealing with anything that has more than Toughness 3 and medium armour, besides the fact that they aren't exactly inexpensive, and having any of the elite infantry formations will bring more to the table, whether Sword Masters, White Lions or Phoenix Guard.

snottlebocket
26-07-2009, 15:17
Usually if you're tempted to take three or four of the same unit... that unit is way too good and shame on you for bringing that many.

Charistoph
26-07-2009, 19:35
Usually if you're tempted to take three or four of the same unit... that unit is way too good and shame on you for bringing that many.

As pointed out above, it depends on the army. Most Core choices do not fall under this rule, and you are in fact encouraged to select up to 3-4 in a 2000+ game, especially in armies like Skaven which require it to maximize your other choices.

Avian
26-07-2009, 19:46
One recommendation I have heard quite a lot is to avoid placing more than 300 points into a single unit.

Yeah, I am a supporter of that school of thought. I'd recommend keeping most combat units (Core or otherwise) in the range of 150-250 pts, with few units being significantly more expensive than that.

My lone Warriors cost 269 pts, which is about as far as I feel comfortable going with M4 units (incidentally it's just about the same cost as a 50% larger Orc Big 'Uns unit, which is considerably worse).

forthegloryofkazadekrund
26-07-2009, 22:24
Usually if you're tempted to take three or four of the same unit... that unit is way too good and shame on you for bringing that many.

My army is Night Goblins, my basic units are NGs, at 250pts per unit - well mine are - they are not too good - well mine are awesome :)

Troah
27-07-2009, 03:19
One recommendation I have heard quite a lot is to avoid placing more than 300 points into a single unit.

Blasphemy! The only way to set up a unit is when it's 1/4 of your points!

Ok but seriously it really depends on the army and how you're making it.

Condottiere
27-07-2009, 07:06
A block of pikes, especially RoR, can easily exceed 300 points.

Griefbringer
27-07-2009, 07:17
My army is Night Goblins, my basic units are NGs, at 250pts per unit

That is a lot of gobbo per unit!

Then again, with the models from the BfSP box, it is surprisingly easy to put together quite large gobbo hordes.

forthegloryofkazadekrund
27-07-2009, 09:22
That is a lot of gobbo per unit!

Then again, with the models from the BfSP box, it is surprisingly easy to put together quite large gobbo hordes.

Its only 40 per unit, soon adds up when you add nets, fc, 3 fanatics - 4 units minimum at 2,000 points of these

bob_the_small
27-07-2009, 11:50
I use 24 Deark Elf warriors with Full Command, Shields and a warbanner, it costs little over 200 points for a great supporting unit!

Condottiere
27-07-2009, 13:45
Dark Elf troops are notoriously undercosted.

Keller
27-07-2009, 14:09
Dark Elf troops are notoriously undercosted.

Quoted for truth. Somehow their better leadership, movement, initiative, weaponskill, and of course, Hatred, are all worth only 1 point more than an Empire spearman. Sounds fair to me....

ZeroTwentythree
27-07-2009, 20:24
I guess you are talking about tournaments so i have no advice there. In friendly games though, the more core the better. Not only they make for more realistic battles but they balance the game on itselves making it way more close and fun for both parts!


For some people, "fun" is loading up as many points and damage capability as they can into a single model/unit, preferably making it nigh indestructible as well, and then overwhelming their opponent with their one-trick pony.

That's not me, but I'm just saying, not everyone has the same idea of "fun."

Unfortunately. ;)



Usually if you're tempted to take three or four of the same unit... that unit is way too good and shame on you for bringing that many.

Huh? So my empire army with 3x25 swordsmen, or my skaven with 4x30 clanrats is a mark of shame? Must be all those wins I'm handing out to my opponents somehow upsetting the delicate balance of power... :angel:

theunwantedbeing
27-07-2009, 20:40
Quoted for truth. Somehow their better leadership, movement, initiative, weaponskill, and of course, Hatred, are all worth only 1 point more than an Empire spearman. Sounds fair to me....

20 DE Spearmen(with sheilds) charging a unit of empire spearmen (no sheilds) with a detachment of 5 free company will lose that combat by 4pts on average.
Which is on average a failed break test, even with a ld10 general nearby.

DE unit costs 155pts
Empire units cost 160pts

Seems pretty fair.

I generally dont like to spend more than about 250pts in any given unit.
If possible I'de prefer to spend nearer half that on a ranked unit of 20 models.

Condottiere
27-07-2009, 21:48
I have a thought - any formations above a certain size, have extreme difficulty in following subsequent orders without a basic leadership test, as their number make communicating such orders in a timely fashion difficult.

Tokamak
27-07-2009, 21:54
I really don't see the problem. Most cheese armies aren't exactly based on large core units, so why put a strain on that? It seems more that the 7th edition tries to promote large units (Ranks of 5 instead of 4, CR for having a wider unit) instead of armies with only a few chestnuts.

sulla
27-07-2009, 21:55
Quoted for truth. Somehow their better leadership, movement, initiative, weaponskill, and of course, Hatred, are all worth only 1 point more than an Empire spearman. Sounds fair to me.......because empire core infantry couldn't possibly be overpriced? No? I guess that's why I see so much of it and empire infantry armies reign supreme. Honestly, anytime you want to run a DE spearman army against me, bring it on.

Shiodome
27-07-2009, 21:56
I have a thought - any formations above a certain size, have extreme difficulty in following subsequent orders without a basic leadership test, as their number make communicating such orders in a timely fashion difficult.that's just idiotic. the armies that take large units have poor leadership, whilst the armies that take small units have high leadership. yeah, lets get rid of horde armies and only use MSU, awesome!

Tokamak
27-07-2009, 21:57
In my opinion an army can't have too many core units.

I rather see large blocks duking it out the one or two single wizard models wiping everything clean.

Condottiere
28-07-2009, 07:43
While I dispute that the thought was idiotic, it was just a reflection that large units once committed to certain actions usually are unable to change formations without some delay.

Avian
28-07-2009, 08:02
20 DE Spearmen(with sheilds) charging a unit of empire spearmen (no sheilds) with a detachment of 5 free company will lose that combat by 4pts on average.
Or would do so if the situation ever cropped up. It doesn't. ;)

Bloodknight
28-07-2009, 15:30
Exactly. When has anybody ever seen the detachment rules work, as in a working countercharge? The detachments are in my experience the first to die in an Empire army, and if cavalry is involved, the detachments get charged, not the main unit.

Keller
28-07-2009, 15:50
Exactly. When has anybody ever seen the detachment rules work, as in a working countercharge? The detachments are in my experience the first to die in an Empire army, and if cavalry is involved, the detachments get charged, not the main unit.

Any decent player will know to take out the detachments first. A better Empire Player may be able to protect them, but its pretty darn hard.

But honestly, detachmants just aren't worth it these days. Battles are not being won by the static Combat Res like they used to, but instead most units can just inflict too many wounds for static res to win. Against many of the new armies, it is more harmful than good to send in a detachment, since it just racks up 3-8 more points for the enemy as they chop up your models as they get more bases in contact.

ZeroTwentythree
28-07-2009, 16:07
Many of the combat heavy units can shrug off the detachments anyway, by causing overwhelming wounds anyway.

DE spearmen aren't necessarily one of those. ;)

Awilla the Hun
28-07-2009, 17:10
My Red Guards will have three 25 Comrade units of Red Guardsmen (Men at Arms, costing about 150 points-I currently have about 2 and a half), as well as the Proletariat Leadership Committee (Knights of the Realm, at about 250 points.) Oh, and three units of Red Guard Commissariat (Peasant Bowmen, about 65 points.)

I have a lot of Core, it seems.

Daedalus81
29-07-2009, 11:03
I run a block of 20 tzeentch chaos warriors with shields and full command; costing me a measly 370 points!

Hakkapelli
29-07-2009, 11:46
In my opinion an army can't have too many core units.

I rather see large blocks duking it out the one or two single wizard models wiping everything clean.
This is a first. Me agreeing compleatly with Tokamak.

The core is supposed to be just that. The Core of the army. All the rest are unusual support units who doesn't, for economic, political, birthrate or other reasons exist in sufficient numbers to be the mainstay of the army. I would actually prefer the old percentage system for calculating how much you can have of characters, core, special and rare. It would stop the deathstar and 3*10 archers for core builds.

Condottiere
29-07-2009, 11:49
You probably have that in campaign games, which have to generate troops from economic performance and sociological factors.

I know most players don't like to be constrained that way for one-off battles, especially once they calculated that their special and rare choices bring more bang for the buck to the table.

Blaklabel
29-07-2009, 16:26
Yeah, core for Skaven is pretty much everything. No matter which Clan list you want to run, or rather a regular Clan army you need those many blocks of core. I need to take those 3 blocks of Clanrats cause I want 3 Small groups of Globidiers. Then if I look at playing a Plague Monk heavy list I could go Pestilence but then I can't have the other wizards I may want. Maybe I want those 4 blocks of Plague Monks and take my Warlock engineers, but I'd have to make a regular list and take atleast 4 units of Clanrats. It kinda sucks, but I guess it helps Skaven not be too good? Maybe?

Hakkapelli
29-07-2009, 21:46
You probably have that in campaign games, which have to generate troops from economic performance and sociological factors.

I know most players don't like to be constrained that way for one-off battles, especially once they calculated that their special and rare choices bring more bang for the buck to the table.
Yes knowing history can ocasionally be bad for your warhammer performance.

I blame GW for not making core units as effective for their points as special and rare.

Skyth
30-07-2009, 16:07
Or as fun...

Hakkapelli
30-07-2009, 19:48
Or as fun...
That is a matter of opinion.

Condottiere
31-07-2009, 11:53
I always view this from an RPG perspective, where you want to include as many unusual and special things as possible, rather than from classical wargaming, where units tend to be uniform.

Charistoph
31-07-2009, 15:31
From the historical perspective the Empire and Dwarven Gunline formations would be considered classic for that technology level.

Condottiere
31-07-2009, 16:00
Actually, for late Renaissance, DoW would be more historically correct, with the exception of lacking arquebusiers.

Tokamak
31-07-2009, 16:06
I always view this from an RPG perspective, where you want to include as many unusual and special things as possible, rather than from classical wargaming, where units tend to be uniform.

Flooding an army with as many unusual and special thing as possible makes them ordinary and mundane again. Special and rare units need the context of core troops to make them extra-ordinary again.

A carnosaur amidst an infantry heavy lizardmen army looks impressive, but in a stegadon stampede it suddenly looks puny or won't even be noticed at all.

What I mean is. Tasteful army composition is like cooking. You need a careful selection of flavours and textures and combine them accordingly. Throwing everything together makes it a tasteless blend.

That's why core troops are important, they're there to make the rest of the units stand out. The only way to escape from this is to have a very effective theme in your list.

Draconian77
31-07-2009, 16:21
I honestly can't see how comparing DE Spearmen to Empire Spearmen is fair, considering that nobody(ex) uses Spearmen over Swordsmen anyway...

As for the cost of core troops? They seem fine. Most armies can choose whether or not to bring a lot of core, which allows for people to theme their armies if they want to.

The only thing that I'm not entirely sure of is heavy cavalry as a core option(barring Bretonnia of course), it seems like a lot of people frown upon anything that isn't heavy cavalry.

forthegloryofkazadekrund
31-07-2009, 16:23
Do you think there should be something like in the Skaven book for all the armies?, ie Mainstay, keep the limits as they are at the moment but to have a special or rare choice you have to have a core choice to go with them of equal strength.

To have a 20 man special unit you have to have a 20 man core unit to go with them and so on, Warmachines would be any sized core unit or a minimum sized unit per choice

Keller
31-07-2009, 16:52
I honestly can't see how comparing DE Spearmen to Empire Spearmen is fair, considering that nobody(ex) uses Spearmen over Swordsmen anyway....

And I don't see how its fair to say that nobody uses spearmen for the Empire, nor that Swordsmen should be the compulsery choice when selecting core troops. My main regiments are spears and even halberdiers, simply because I think pole-arms look much better on the table.

Even so, just compare them to swordsmen, then. They cost the same points as an Empire Spearman and still have worse stats than the DE warrior.

Condottiere
31-07-2009, 18:29
Flooding an army with as many unusual and special thing as possible makes them ordinary and mundane again. Special and rare units need the context of core troops to make them extra-ordinary again.

A carnosaur amidst an infantry heavy lizardmen army looks impressive, but in a stegadon stampede it suddenly looks puny or won't even be noticed at all.

What I mean is. Tasteful army composition is like cooking. You need a careful selection of flavours and textures and combine them accordingly. Throwing everything together makes it a tasteless blend.

That's why core troops are important, they're there to make the rest of the units stand out. The only way to escape from this is to have a very effective theme in your list.That would depend on the cuisine you're used to.

The RPG perspective is to have differences between units, not just to allow any situation or opponent that pops up to be able to be handled, but also to make each interesting.

Tokamak
31-07-2009, 19:08
I understand that. And core troops help to make the special units look interesting.

Freman Bloodglaive
31-07-2009, 20:28
And I don't see how its fair to say that nobody uses spearmen for the Empire, nor that Swordsmen should be the compulsery choice when selecting core troops. My main regiments are spears and even halberdiers, simply because I think pole-arms look much better on the table.

Even so, just compare them to swordsmen, then. They cost the same points as an Empire Spearman and still have worse stats than the DE warrior.

True, but Swordsmen have the two things that put them on par with DE warriors in combat. WS4 so the DE hit on 4s, and 4+ save to the front so they can at least save occasionally. Spearmen get hit on 3s and save on 5s (if you buy shields) so die far more quickly.

Point for point Swordsmen are just better.

Now consider DoW pikemen. 10 points gets you WS3, light armour and a pike. Pikes are okay but have limitations, and the models are probably 2-3 points too dear. Crossbowmen are the same as Empire, heavy cavalry is cheaper but doesn't get full plate armour or the option to become inner circle. Light cavalry is something that Empire don't get as core choices. Swings and roundabouts, if you balance every 20 man unit of pikes with 20 heavy cavalry you probably break even.

Of course DoW have one advantage inasmuch as they have nothing worth spending points on in their hero slots so there are more points left over to spend on troops. A General with lance, heavy armour, shield and barded warhorse is about as good as it gets for 126 points. He is 19 points cheaper than a Templar Grand Master with the same equipment. 79 points for a paymaster GW,HA,s,BWH, a couple of level 2s with a scroll and stone each. Not much in it is there?