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BrotherMoses
26-07-2009, 08:23
So, the Blood Angels are suppossed to be the longest lived SM chapter, but then they have a tendency to fall into this Black Rage and are formed into what is essentially a suicide unit? Doesn't that sound a tad inconsistent?

Hey atleast we're not space vikings though :angel:

Gorgoroth
26-07-2009, 08:50
yes - that had passed my mind too. I think that not too many succumb to the black rage, perhaps only 1 in 100 so most of them make it to an old age. any other thoughts?

Lothlanathorian
26-07-2009, 08:58
I'd rather be a Space Viking.


And yes, I would think that not so many BA's go balls-out insane. And the ones who do don't always succeed at suicide-by-enemy the first try lol

Condottiere
26-07-2009, 09:10
Is that 1% per annum? It will take a few years to build up reasonable number of "volunteers".

Gorgoroth
26-07-2009, 09:12
I just made that 1% up... 1% of 1000 marines is only 10 marines perhaps per month or two depending on how many casualties they need to replace. My head hurts.

Lothlanathorian
26-07-2009, 09:47
I just made that 1% up... 1% of 1000 marines is only 10 marines perhaps per month or two depending on how many casualties they need to replace. My head hurts.

Want me to do your math? I will do it drunk so it will seem all Steven Hawkings awesome, I promise:p

And I would think that the Black Rage is dependent on stress levels and some other things as far as what makes them lose it and go over.

Gorgoroth
26-07-2009, 11:17
I want to know what would happen if you had a blood angels marine that was slowly turning death company and you couldn't get him into battle quick enough. I dont think he would go all emo and start to attack himself or turn on his own brothers.

Condottiere
26-07-2009, 12:03
Can you stick him into cold storage and release him just before battle?

abasio
26-07-2009, 12:07
I always thought the black rage came on the eve of the battle as they got all wet about it before hand! Or is my memory just rubbish?

Philip S
26-07-2009, 12:42
So, the Blood Angels are suppossed to be the longest lived SM chapter, but then they have a tendency to fall into this Black Rage and are formed into what is essentially a suicide unit? Doesn't that sound a tad inconsistent?
It depends on the set up.

If a marine take ages to develop, and are only small numbers are developed, and all the BA marines are likely to go nuts at some point then; yes.

If there is a huge turnaround in recruits becoming marines, and it is the new marine that are likely to go nuts - then it's possible older marines may last a very long time, so; no.

The background does seem a bit dodgy without clarification - on the one hand the background implies the former, but logic dictates the latter is more realistic if the looses are true. Unfortunately the latter hypothesis has the problem regarding armour supplies are not as limited as the background makes out, but limit supplies may be yet more hyperbole (and 40K is hyper everything :p).

Personally I would have those succumbing to the black rage being predominantly scouts, but that is obviously not awesome enough, which can be ameliorated by having full marines going nuts only before some super major awesomeness event that only super mad BA's can handle :wtf:

The truth of 40K probably lies somewhere outside the description in the background, as 40K story telling always ramps everything up to attention grabbing levels.

Philip

ryng_sting
26-07-2009, 13:20
Bad wording. The BA chapter itself is as old as all the other first founding chapters, whereas a BA Space Marine has a longer life-span than other Space Marines, provided he survives to enjoy it. Black Rage is one by-product of Sanguinius's DNA, longevity another.

Philip S
26-07-2009, 13:43
Bad wording. The BA chapter itself is as old as all the other first founding chapters, whereas a BA Space Marine has a longer life-span than other Space Marines, provided he survives to enjoy it. Black Rage is one by-product of Sanguinius's DNA, longevity another.
Spot on :)

To add to my previous post - Blood Angels are blessed with physical longevity, and some to make it to the end. Commander Dante is the oldest current chapter master of all, and Mephiston overcame the black rage (as did Rafen and Ashok in BL novels), but this not normal. it does seem all suffer from the effects of the 'back rage' but it's only a problem if it take hold and the marine looses control (probably emotional turmoil kicks it up a level).

Philip

Kozbot
26-07-2009, 18:55
I don't see how it's necessarily an inconsistency.

Human beings get cancer. Cancer rates are higher in the western world than in the developing world. Life expectancy rates are longer in the western world than in the developing world.

All this means is that those in the developing world don't live long enough to get cancer. Maybe all space wolves would turn into Wulfen eventualy, but they just don't live long enough to get there. Blood Angels fall victim to the Black Rage and it's a problem for their chapter, but perhaps if they didn't live so long it wouldn't be such an issue. If the average Blood Angel died after only 50 years it may be that none really lived long enough to fall victim to the Black Rage.

Condottiere
26-07-2009, 19:05
How many Angels are there usually who fall victim to the Black Rage? It seems the percentage is very small, so the Death Company can't really number more than a dozen at a time, since there are usually no survivors.

Lothlanathorian
26-07-2009, 19:53
I always thought the black rage came on the eve of the battle as they got all wet about it before hand! Or is my memory just rubbish?

That is how I remember it. They get visions before a battle and a Chaplain is supposed to notice this happening and pull the Marines aside before they snap and go ape**** so they can bling him out in Death Company gear and trot him into a gunline.

BrainFireBob
27-07-2009, 01:59
I want to know what would happen if you had a blood angels marine that was slowly turning death company and you couldn't get him into battle quick enough. I dont think he would go all emo and start to attack himself or turn on his own brothers.

There's a fluff piece on this. The Lestrollio (I think) Method.

You time him up and make him talk to you. Eventually, his hearts will both explode and he'll drop dead. But, in the interim, you get a Sanguinius-person view of what happened on Horus' battle barge.

Gdolkin
28-07-2009, 00:20
As Brainfirebob says, the Lestrallio procedure involves either the marine himself noticing that he's starting to lose it and volunteering, or the Chaplains taking him away just like on the eve of a battle, and chaining the afflicted Angel up and listening to him rant until he shakes himself to death.
No, it's not an inconsistency at all. The Cancer rates/life expectancy analogy was a good one- extended longevity and the Black Rage are seperate effects of Sanguinius's geneseed. I don't know whether it's been stated that the propensity to the Rage increases as a Blood Angel ages or what, whether young scouts succumb or it only tends to afflict 100-year veterans..it's not clear. Of course, statistically the longer a Blood Angel lives, the more likely he'll eventually succumb to the rage. Cor, Dante has been resisting the Rage for 1100 years, what a dude..

GodofWarTx
28-07-2009, 01:32
i get the impression the blood angels have a horrible attrition rate and are constantly recruiting. I bet they are huge pools of recruits too, because not all survive the sanguination process.

Hellebore
28-07-2009, 02:37
It makes sense if you take into account just how many potential recruits there are waiting in the wings. Even the super elite marines have pretty much unlimited recruit supply, because a fraction of infinity is still infinity and the imperium does not lack for manpower.

If 5 in every company become death company, which isn't much especially when compared to the number of them deployed on the battlefield by players... the you need 50 recruits every year in addition to the attritional replacements.

The blood angels seem to be able to recruit almost anyone with their sarcophagi treatment. All their recruits go in stunted and radiation poisoned and come out as sparkly adonis'. If 1 in 100 of the population of Baal secundus could be recruited and they had a population of 100 million, well that's 1 million recruits. Considering that's 1/3rd the US's population for an entire planet, it's not very much. even if it's only 1 in 1000, that's still 100,000 potential recruits, 100x the number of marines in the entire chapter.

Hellebore

Kozbot
28-07-2009, 02:47
It makes sense if you take into account just how many potential recruits there are waiting in the wings. Even the super elite marines have pretty much unlimited recruit supply, because a fraction of infinity is still infinity and the imperium does not lack for manpower.

If 5 in every company become death company, which isn't much especially when compared to the number of them deployed on the battlefield by players... the you need 50 recruits every year in addition to the attritional replacements.

The blood angels seem to be able to recruit almost anyone with their sarcophagi treatment. All their recruits go in stunted and radiation poisoned and come out as sparkly adonis'. If 1 in 100 of the population of Baal secundus could be recruited and they had a population of 100 million, well that's 1 million recruits. Considering that's 1/3rd the US's population for an entire planet, it's not very much. even if it's only 1 in 1000, that's still 100,000 potential recruits, 100x the number of marines in the entire chapter.

Hellebore

Do Blood Angels have very low rejection rates? It's always stated that the low survival rates of those that they do recruit is a large part of the problem marines have in replenishing their numbers. I know a certain percentage of that is harsh initiation rituals but there's also those in whom the geneseed doesn't take. Is that something the BA's don't really have? I'm not up on my BA fluff, haven't read the codex in a LONG time.

Hellebore
28-07-2009, 02:53
It doesn't really say, but their recruits are all pathetic specimens. We are always told that marines can only recruit from a tiny portion of the population, the best of the best of the best or whatever, but the entire population of potential angel recruits are sickly and malnourished because they live in an irradiated wasteland. They have radiation sickness, poisoning, malnutrition etc. This is done deliberately to counterpoint just how remarkable the change is to beautiful sparkly teen heart-throb.

Obviously they need to recruit tissue types that are the most compatable, but their sample pool is completely poor in the first place.

Contrast that with say the BTs or DA who recruit from many different worlds where they can preferentially choose who and wear to recruit. If they find a planet of particularly good specimens they might dip into it more often.

Thus their sarcophagi method must have some extra ability (as they are all physiologically modified as well as receiving organ transplants) as the blood angels have no other recruitment pool.

Hellebore

Shas'o Brightsword
28-07-2009, 02:57
screw blood angels :D ;D HUNT THE FALLEN FOR THE LION!!!!

Imperialis_Dominatus
28-07-2009, 05:09
I think the life expectancy vs. cancer rates was a good analogy.


This is done deliberately to counterpoint just how remarkable the change is to beautiful sparkly teen heart-throb.

Oh no you didn't. Oh... no... you... didn't.

I am . . <that close to knocking you off my friends list now.

...

:p

Gdolkin
28-07-2009, 12:45
The Blood Angel recruits still have to have excelled in strength and endurance and fightiness before they're ever taken to Baal to be Insanguinated though.. They're stunted and pockmarked and cancerous, but they're not weak or pathetic.
Please Hellebore, not you too.. If GW won't preserve the sanctity of their legacy of cool background, it's up to folk like us to, and if people keep calling the Blood Angels 'sparkly teen heartthrobs' then that's what they'll actually become in the minds of the fanbase.. :mad::cries:
Sod it, make the broader point: The more we stand for or indulge in stupid chat about Space Wolves playing fetch and peeing up lamposts, Blood Angels being Twilight Vampires, Dark Angels being emo or gay or whatever, the Traitor Primarchs being spoilt children who had attention-seeking tantrums, etc.., the more this will filter back to GW and they'll think that's what we want. Taking the **** and belittling the 40k background is taking the **** out of and belittling ourselves guys..
I get a lot out of the 40k background in terms of imagination, relaxation and aesthetic experience, and i'm really really sick of "Blood Angles r Twilight sparkly lollol" and all the rest. Why be interested in something just to sneer at it? This forum offers the opportunity to learn unknown aspects of the background, to make connections between bits of your knowledge of the 40k universe, to discuss and speculate and rationalize on aspects that are unclear or that don't seem to make sense, which can all be very entertaining and enriching, and beats the hell out of crap jokes about Dark Angels wearing dresses or Leman Russ being drunk, ya dig? ****** off with yer Twilight references, this is a 40k board.
EDIT: Sorry guys, I'm stressed lately and I come here to escape.. I guess I understand if not appreciate that some people vent their frustrations by taking the **** out of imaginary fictional characters that can't retaliate, but this is how I vent mine.. Typing "lol" doesn't make what one just said witty. What's the latest internet ****-speak for "Grumpy old man who cares about the integrity of the 40k background and grown-up sensible discussion of it"..?

Condottiere
28-07-2009, 12:50
Some chapter must arise to challenge the Ultramarines in coolness and charisma.