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WarriorOfJustice
06-01-2006, 23:16
How do challenges work? The rulebook is kind of vague (unless I missed apart) For instance, do the two "challenges" fight against each other, and then do the rest of the models in the 2 units fight against each other? Also, if a challenge was issued when one unit charges, does the charging challengee gain his bonuses for charging and attack first? thanks!

Flame
07-01-2006, 00:09
a challenge is a normal combat, with the exception of overkill, and only those two models being able to hit each other.

Everything else- combat res, charging bonuses etc are still valid.

WarriorOfJustice
07-01-2006, 00:53
so charging bonuses are applied in challenges?

mageith
07-01-2006, 02:34
so charging bonuses are applied in challenges?
Yes. I've never seen it successfully argued otherwise.

Festus
07-01-2006, 08:21
Hi

And he has seen it argued a lot ;)

I agree: Charging challengers still are chargers and therefore all the charge bonusses apply.

Greetings
Festus

Griefbringer
07-01-2006, 10:20
Considering how simple stuff challenges essentially are, they tend to crop up a lot on this forum. I guess the description in the BRB could be more clear.

mageith
07-01-2006, 13:07
Considering how simple stuff challenges essentially are, they tend to crop up a lot on this forum. I guess the description in the BRB could be more clear.

The way challenge works is counter intuitive. The very word challenge indicates that I'm challenging SOMEONE "I challenge you to a duel." but that's not how it works here.

How can a challenge be made from a galloping horse during a charge? Why should charge bonuses be given if a challenge 'stops' to issue his challenge?

What kind of 'fair' challenge is there when a guy on a dragon challenges a guy on the ground in light armor? And then why does get to back up again to use his charging bonuses?

What kind of world is it when a guy in light armor can take the challenge in place of the leader of his army?

Why do Orcs/Skaven/Nurgilites/Vampires/Humans ALWAYS respect the law of never striking characters 'locked' in challenge?

And then the never ending question: If my general slinks away to the back of the who's forcing the peon in the 2nd rank to come forth and die and does he have to.

I 'know' the answers to all these, but the whole thing is counter-intuitive to me and nearly every one of the dozens of newbies I have taught how to play this crazy game.

Mage Ith

sds661
17-01-2006, 00:04
The way challenge works is counter intuitive.

Mage Ith
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the case that a character in a chariot has to dismount to fight a challenge (loosing advantages such as additional armour save) but a character on a dragon gets to use his dragon in the challenge? Is there any logic in that?

Flame
17-01-2006, 11:53
A little bit. Chariots tend to have more more than one crew, and so then you would have to fight 3 models (chariots, crew, characters).

Never try and apply logic to warhammer!

T10
17-01-2006, 13:57
"Counter intuitive", pah. :waves hand dismissively:

If the character is already fighting in close combat, then he either has put himself in that situation by choice or he has been out-maneuvered. :)

In either case the the characters (note plural) have the choice of issuing or accepting challenges, and in the case of a refused challenge the opponent picks the character to retire. Logically, this would be the most powerful character in the unit, but a cunning player may find it advantageous to retire the champion, leaving the mage or hero vulnerable to regular attacks.

As for fluff, those races that would seem prone to interfering in honourable combat are the same whose authority is based on intimidation and force. fighting a challenge proves that he is strong. If the hero needs help from his men dealing with the enemy, then he is weak.

-T10

Arnizipal
17-01-2006, 15:25
The way challenge works is counter intuitive. The very word challenge indicates that I'm challenging SOMEONE "I challenge you to a duel." but that's not how it works here.

How can a challenge be made from a galloping horse during a charge? Why should charge bonuses be given if a challenge 'stops' to issue his challenge?

He could shout "Which of you yellow-belly bastards has the guts to face me in personal combat?" while charging in. No need to stop, he just needs to shout really loud so he's audible over the charging mounts/troops.



What kind of 'fair' challenge is there when a guy on a dragon challenges a guy on the ground in light armor? And then why does get to back up again to use his charging bonuses?

Challenges don't have to be fair. And technically you need to be at least a champion (and thus a figure of authority and respect) to take up a challenge. It doesn't matter what kind of armour he wears. It's all about status. A champion needs to inspire and lead his troops by example (and often dies trying). Alternativly you could say a champion sacrifices himself to buy his troops time to beat the less deadly enemy troopers (and maybe even win the combat altogether) while he ties up their best fighter for (hopefully) a couple of turns.

Charging challenges from dragonback are easier to explain than charging cav challenges. The dragon can just hang there above the enemy while its rider shouts his challenge and then dive down for the charge.



What kind of world is it when a guy in light armor can take the challenge in place of the leader of his army?

The champion gives his life so that his lord/master may live.
Most heroic stories have something like this: Eowyn vs the Witch King instead of Théoden/Gandalf, Arhalien/Korhain vs Urian Poisonblade instead of Tyrion, ...



And then the never ending question: If my general slinks away to the back of the who's forcing the peon in the 2nd rank to come forth and die and does he have to.

Nobody does. It doesn't say so in the rules and we've always played it he leaves a hole in the front rank, much like he had been slain.

Crazy Harborc
17-01-2006, 19:20
Don't forget challenge rules just like all the rest, are "supposed" to help keep it simple and moving along. Help to move the game to it's outcome......my, I mean a players victory.

The book is a bit vague. Maybe if we tell em NOT to change a thing, they'll improve the current wording.:angel:

mageith
18-01-2006, 02:23
"Counter intuitive", pah. :waves hand dismissively:

I've taught dozens of players to play this game and the challenge doesn't work like any of them expect it to.

Challenging is an acquired taste.

As you your and Arnzipal's attempts to make the challenge rules make sense. All I have say is humans are rational creatures. They can rationalize anything. :)

I think the self-evidence is there. Questions about how challenges work is one of the most common areas of questions. I don't really think the rules are all that complicated, but more of "They can't really mean what they wrote, can they?"

Mage Ith

Mook
20-01-2006, 17:22
following on from Arnzipal's comment, I have another couple of questions regarding challenges:

1. do you get to replace the model if the hero retires?

2. If the only model you are in base-to-base contact with is in a challenge (eg on the corner of a big ranked unit) can you fight the rest of the unit, or not?

3. Are character models in a challenge still in base-to-base contact with the models outside of the challenge (important for magic items such as amber pendant)?

Wisdom appreciated.

Mook out

Festus
20-01-2006, 18:17
Hi

1. do you get to replace the model if the hero retires?
Yes.


2. If the only model you are in base-to-base contact with is in a challenge (eg on the corner of a big ranked unit) can you fight the rest of the unit, or not?
No



3. Are character models in a challenge still in base-to-base contact with the models outside of the challenge (important for magic items such as amber pendant)?

Depends...
...on the item and the situation

Greetings
Festus

mageith
21-01-2006, 04:48
1. do you get to replace the model if the hero retires?

I'd say no. But there's been several long debates on this very question. He's only retired during the Close Combat phase, so what's the point?

T10
21-01-2006, 19:34
A Challenge is a bit like a hand weapon. Sure, they *look different* with a Skaven Warlord than they would for an Elf champion, but the mechanics are the same.

Applying fantastic rationale is up to the players, really.

-T10

polanowj
23-01-2006, 00:46
Other challenge questions, came up today - unit of his Dragon Princes with his lord, charges and then challenges my Chaos Marauders. I also have a sorcerer in the unit. Marauder champ accepts challenge, fights two rounds before dying. Lord moves back into unit of dragon princes, but units still locked in combat.
Question 1 - now that he is no longer in a challenge, does he add his combat attacks back into the combat with the marauder RnF (and Sorcerer)?
Next, I charged the unit of Dragon Princes in the rear with a tuskgor chariot. He challenges (again) and the only character left is my sorcerer, which I accept.
Q2 - do chariot impact hits go before challenges?
Q3 - Can he 'rechallenge' in a combat that he is been in the whole time?
Q4 - If I hadn't accepted, assume that my sorcerer goes to the back (some question above is some RnF member get's shoved forward (which is what we did)), does the Lord then still get to attack the rest of the unit if the challenge was refused? (I think yes here). Tx

Mad Makz
23-01-2006, 01:54
Q1 - Yes, Challenge ends, Lord returns to the fihgt.

Q2 - If the question is are Impact hits made before challenges are declared, then I do not know the answer, possibly, but it's not something I have thought about and don't have my rules with me to check. This probably needs to be looked into further, as a model already in a challenge probably can't be hit by impact hits, but a model yet to start a challenge probably could be...

Q3 - Yes, any character can issue a challenge in any combat involving another character as long as no other challenges are taking place/no other challenges have been refused in that combat that turn (i.e you can't successively issue challenges in an attempt to get all opposing characters to accept or decline).

Q4 - Yes, he gets to fight the rank and file.

mageith
23-01-2006, 05:42
Q2 - If the question is are Impact hits made before challenges are declared, then I do not know the answer, possibly, but it's not something I have thought about and don't have my rules with me to check. This probably needs to be looked into further, as a model already in a challenge probably can't be hit by impact hits, but a model yet to start a challenge probably could be...

I'd say the challenge comes first since it's done "before working out any close combat" and impact hits are now part of close combat. Usually it won't make any difference because impact hit always go against troops if there are any and aren't even distributed like shooting. Even champions can avoid impact hits if there are any troops. (128)

Mage Ith

Mad Makz
23-01-2006, 07:07
I was more thinking if a lone character is charged by a chariot, while already in combat with say another unit with only one rank with a character in it so the character can't decline.

The charged character then avoids the impact hit by virtue of jumping into a challenge, even though he wasn't in a challenge when the chariot charged.

Feels a bit off (Ho hum, that thing is going to run me over. Hey you, that's right you, fight me! Oh, and while your at it tell your boys with the big spikes on their wheels to slow down a little, we don't want them getting in the way of our fight now do we!? :) )

mageith
23-01-2006, 14:04
I was more thinking if a lone character is charged by a chariot,
If he challenges someone from the other unit, he avoids the chariot hits as will as any of the driver hits. All the chariot would do in that case is add to Unit Strength. It doess seem a bit off.

Ith

polanowj
23-01-2006, 16:34
The sequence was he finished off my champ in his turn, I won combat, he passed his leadership. On the next turn (my turn), I charged him and he wanted to challenge again. He only had a Standard bearer with him, so he was the only RnF guy left to absorb the impact hits (which he did and died unceremoniously). He initially thought I wouldn't get any hits, since he thought he had left his unit champ as the sole model (his SB isn't modeled any different), in which case, I think the impact hits would have been for naught and only counted towards the rear charge and outnumber. Thanks for the thoughts on this, didn't realize he could rechallenge.

Festus
23-01-2006, 17:14
Hi

If there is noone but a champion or a character left, those can and must suffer the impact hits from a chariot.

Greetings
Festus

mageith
23-01-2006, 17:55
Hi

If there is noone but a champion or a character left, those can and must suffer the impact hits from a chariot.

Greetings
Festus

Is that and/or character or either champion or character or champion and character?

Its never come up but I wonder how folks would play it. If there were two characters only and the chariot hit, how would you allocate? If there was only a character and a champion left would that be different?

Ordinarily the champion is also rank and file but not sure if that's true concerning chariots.

Mage Ith

Festus
23-01-2006, 19:06
Is that and/or character or either champion or character or champion and character?
Either / or doesn't seem to be a problem,or is there?

Its never come up but I wonder how folks would play it. If there were two characters only and the chariot hit, how would you allocate?
I'd do it like shooting: Even out and randomize any excess...


If there was only a character and a champion left would that be different?
Tough, that one. But I'd probably let the Champ have it, as he is R'n'F after all. Something akin to LoS!: Get out of the way, boss ;)

Greetings
Festus

polanowj
23-01-2006, 20:34
I think the problem is with how the chariot rules are laid out - you can definitely hit a solo character, but characters/unit champs are exempt (the way the rule reads IIRC - my book is at home), but I agree, with just a unit champ and character left, think it is a bit unfair not to allow the hits (albeit randomized) have a shot at hitting them

Lord Xcalibur
27-01-2006, 17:28
Characters on multi-wound mounts are the only parts of the challenge process that bother me. I can't remember specific details, but here's how it played out in our games recently in WHFB:

1) DE beastmaster on dragon is in combat with WE wardancers.
2) dragon and rider are charged by Orion and Wild Riders. - challenge.
3) Orion faces off against dragon and rider.
4) Due to the challenge, 8 wardancers and 5 wild riders now stand around ignoring dragon and rider.

While I killed the dragon and rider in the end, I don't see how the dragon becomes immune to the rest of the blasted units because its rider want to fight in a challenge.

That said, I know that's how the rules work (unless we all made some major mistake) but it continues to rankle.

Lord Xcalibur