PDA

View Full Version : Breath attacks into close combat?



Makaber
06-01-2006, 23:17
We all know a unit in close combat can't use a breath weapon, but what about units not engaged in close combat, using them at units that is? I ask this because I often use chaos spawns with the Mark of Tzeench, where a flamer template is placed towards the nearest enemy unit, mandatory each round. So will the spawn in this case flame enemy units locked in close combat?

Also, as a side question, will it fire every round even if there obviously isn't any enemies withing 8"?

Ganymede
07-01-2006, 02:39
Ignoring any of the Tzeentchian Spawn's special rules (and the Life is Cheap rule), you can never shoot a breath weapon into a close combat. Even if you can aim the weapon so it does not hit any friendly models or enemy models adjacent to friendly models, you still can't do it.

starlight
07-01-2006, 03:29
While you aren't *supposed* to do it:p. I've never had a problem with it....as long as an equal number of models from each side are hit.:D

mageith
07-01-2006, 06:06
Ignoring any of the Tzeentchian Spawn's special rules (and the Life is Cheap rule), you can never shoot a breath weapon into a close combat. Even if you can aim the weapon so it does not hit any friendly models or enemy models adjacent to friendly models, you still can't do it.
The question at hand however wants to deal with the Tzeentch Spawn's special rules.

So the issues are two fold.

1) Can a Tzeentch Spawn change its facing at the end of its movement?
2) Are the rules for the Tzentch Spawn truly mandatory?

Assuming they are truly mandatory and it cannont change its facing, then it not only can but must shoot into close combat if the random movement brings it into range. The template rules on page 60-61 can adequately deal with that and even seems to indicate that some templates can do this. This is my answer.

If the Spawn can change its facing at the end of its movement, then it must change its facing, if possible, so that it cannot shoot into close combat at the end of movement. This seems awkward to me.

Mage Ith

IBethune
08-01-2006, 19:53
Although the rules say you can't, I think that it is most 'in character' that units with breath attacks should be able to use them in close combat. Take for example a Dragon. If it was a few inches away it would quite happily flame an enemy in the shooting phase, but when it charges into combat suddenly it can't use one of the major parts of it's combat arsenal?

Doesn't make much sense to me...

- Iain

Festus
08-01-2006, 22:06
Hi

Although the rules say you can't, I think that it is most 'in character' that units with breath attacks should be able to use them in close combat. Take for example a Dragon. If it was a few inches away it would quite happily flame an enemy in the shooting phase, but when it charges into combat suddenly it can't use one of the major parts of it's combat arsenal?

Doesn't make much sense to me...

you can imagine that all of this breathy goodness is already factored into the Dragon's Attack, WS and other characteristics.

Or does it make much sense to you that a regular Drageon can get off 5 Attacks in the time a regular Elf only manages one measly A? Or an Elven Lord is slower than a Drageon... ?

Greetings
Festus

mageith
08-01-2006, 22:13
Although the rules say you can't, I think that it is most 'in character' that units with breath attacks should be able to use them in close combat. Take for example a Dragon. If it was a few inches away it would quite happily flame an enemy in the shooting phase,

Not true. He'd be very careful not to include any of his own 'friends' in the fiery inflamation. He'd not be happy but calculating. ;)



but when it charges into combat suddenly it can't use one of the major parts of it's combat arsenal?

Doesn't make much sense to me...

- Iain
Nor I, but GW went for simplicity at the expensive of sensitivity.:eek:

Mage Ith

Arnizipal
08-01-2006, 22:21
Or does it make much sense to you that a regular Drageon can get off 5 Attacks in the time a regular Elf only manages one measly A? Or an Elven Lord is slower than a Drageon... ?
I think it represents the Dragon taking out 5 times as much enemies with a single swipe. That would fit the timeframe better. :)

mageith
08-01-2006, 22:51
I think it represents the Dragon taking out 5 times as much enemies with a single swipe. That would fit the timeframe better. :)
But all superior models have this ability. Not only do they have better WS, S, T and Init, they get all their Attacks at once even against other superior models.

But again it's GWs choice to simplify rather than simulate.

Ith

The Night Sojourner
09-01-2006, 03:43
objectively, I look at this issue this way: we know that model must fire and its madatory; however, we know the rules that are governing cc and shooting. Therefore, it makes more sense that it must shoot at the closest unit that is not in close combat b/c it uphold two gw's parameters. In my opinion, i believe this is another case where gw wrote a rule w/o seeing if any obvious grey areas would occur.

T10
09-01-2006, 08:55
We all know a unit in close combat can't use a breath weapon, but what about units not engaged in close combat, using them at units that is? I ask this because I often use chaos spawns with the Mark of Tzeench, where a flamer template is placed towards the nearest enemy unit, mandatory each round. So will the spawn in this case flame enemy units locked in close combat?

Also, as a side question, will it fire every round even if there obviously isn't any enemies withing 8"?

In my opinion:

If the spawn is compelled to use it's breath weapon then the restriction on firing into close combat is overruled. It is comparable to a deviating or poorly aimed warmachine shot in this regard.

But does it fire every round? Well, compulsory actions often seem tom be based on prescience: Frenzied troops automatically declare a charge if within range, meaning that you measure first rather than after.

It should be acceptable to place the template to see if it can touch any enemy models first.
* YES: Work out the attack on enemies and friends as appropriate.
* NO: The spawn does not use the breath weapon, and thus does not attack any friendly models either.

-T10

mageith
09-01-2006, 13:25
gw wrote a rule w/o seeing if any obvious grey areas would occur.

I don't know how obvious is was. HoC has been out quite awhile and I don't remember this question coming up and I monitor 4 rules forums. Perhaps I missed it. The major question that keeps coming up about the Tzeentch Spawn is whether it can change its facing at the end of its move. If it can then the shooting problem can easily be avoided.

Strictly Commercial
10-01-2006, 05:47
I think it represents the Dragon taking out 5 times as much enemies with a single swipe. That would fit the timeframe better. :)

Agreed. For the last few years my peers and I have been referring to that as "Sauroning" your opponent, and in the imaginations of most this image seems to fit.

I wonder if they will be moving toward what they've done with the carnifex in 40K with its crushing claws, d6 attacks instead of a fixed number. I would be okay with it if they did, but it works pretty well as it is.

I think creatures with breath weapons ought to get a free hit on everything that touches its base, distributed as shooting, etc etc. I think that would be the most fluffy representation as I can see a dragon leaning in with its maw belching flames at point blank. Of course I don't propose rules changes or anything, just think it would add to the imaginative view of the game.