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Solar_Eclipse
28-07-2009, 08:57
This is my first topic in the background section (um...i think). Anyway, i am a huge fan of Imperial Guard and thus, of Dan Abnett novels such as the Gaunts Ghosts and Double Eagle (havent read any of his others, however.) As they are almost rare as they present a view of the Imperial Guard which has them being pragmatic, competent and very powerful.

Im not just talking about the Heroes of the Ghosts, things such as the scenes from the Operations room in Double Eagle. They present a view where the Imperial Guard are very effective and above all, professional.

Alot of the over the top "40k" elements are removed or at the very least shifted into the background of the overarching story. Not very often do you see a general throwing troops into combat in a meat grinder, and if you do they are usually dealt with quickly.

Compare the exploits of the Pardus tank regiment or the Tanks under General Grizmund (Gaunts Ghosts Novel) to the exploits of the Cadian 423rd regiment (Guard Codex). The Pardus regiment are viewed as highly competent tank commanders who use realistic armoured tactics to maximise their armoured advantage, and General Grizmund has a highly manouvrable strategy which relies on veteran skill and effective use of their technology (Auspices).

Compare these to exploits from the codex where the Cadian (a VERY elite regiment, Cadians being the best of the best, Led by Commander Pask) 423rd Tank regiment lose 8000 tank companies (800,000 Leman Russes) and 35 Super heavy detachments (from 35-105 Super Heavy vehicles) attacking a Titan Legion.

The point of this is to ask you, do you believe the Dan Abnett is giving a fair view on how the Imperial Guard fights? Or is he making them too effective? I for one would like to believe that Dan Abnett is giving a fair view, as this makes the enemies of man who manage to defeat the Imperial Guard seem much more powerful and effective, while the Codex representation just seems to be very one sided, showing the Guard to be a bunch of talentless half wits.

Thank you for reading, at least.

eltanko
28-07-2009, 09:13
I think he is focusing on elite groups, Kinda like Royal Marines etc, an elite group. So yes, they would be competant. I dont think he means to indicate that all soldiers are, because just like in reality, some soldiers are bad at their job and just not cut out for it.

So to a degree, yes he is fair :)

ElTanko

Poseidal
28-07-2009, 09:36
The problem is he the villains are punching bags.

The Imperial Guard are good. A professional force, and all.

The thing thing that isn't portrayed is the superior and sometimes supernatural professional capabilities of some of the forces they face.

An Imperial Guard colonel is a good leader, experienced and savvy. That is the baseline standard for the standing troops of the Eldar or Chaos Space Marine; each of these has enough combat experience and life experience that they, at bare minimum, are as good as his.

Authors seem to 'forget' how smart Eldar, Chaos Marines and Space Marines (and often Orks) actually are.

Even the Marine protagonists have them winning in tests of might when they should be shown to have very good tactical abilities.

EDIT: What I see, or rather don't see is the villains having a 'pride before a fall' in a non superficial way. When they come, they should be clearly superior or whatnot and win, with actual arrogance (not fakey GW schoolyard arrogance) being the downfall of them. They're so clearly superior they get complacent, or something like that, or in their schemes they just don't take into account somethings. They are defeated not in something of their own strength but something of their weakness, or being defeated BY their own strength (not literal strength but the things they are supposedly good at).

Nicha11
28-07-2009, 10:07
Abnett has his own brand of 40k, a brand where guardsmen can lay the smack down on CSM and humans can carry heavy bolters....

I personnaly thought his "Eisenhorn" series was one of BL best books but thats a conversation for another day.

ImperiusDominatus
28-07-2009, 10:11
Eh, I guess the problem with determining the strength of the forces in the 40kverse is that they, well, don't exist. The only information we have to judge them on comes from many different sources with many different interpretations depending on the author. It's hard to figure out if someone is making a fair interpretation when there's really no norm to base it on.

I prefer to think of the Guard as in between the Codex interpretation and that of Gaunt's Ghosts; a tough army full of disciplined and well trained troops that gets slaughtered by highly advanced aliens and monstrosities like Tyranids and Daemons. While they're very capable of winning battles, it usually takes a lot of blood determined Officers to do it.



Authors seem to 'forget' how smart Eldar, Chaos Marines and Space Marines (and often Orks) actually are.
To be fair, though, this isn't so much the fault of the Guardsman (or Space Marine) as it is the fault of any general protagonist.

squilverine
28-07-2009, 10:13
I think that both scenarios are entirely believable, as mentioned in the post above Dan Abnett tends to focus on elite regiments/units as they make for a more entertaining read over the course of a novel.

To give a real life example it would be like comparing the British raid on the Nazi installation at St. Nazaire to the massed battles on the Eastern front where Russian conscripts were comited to battle sometimes unarmed.

If you were facing attack from a traitor titan legion, idealy you would have your own titans to engage them, however if all you had were tanks you would still comit them regarldless of the losses

Condottiere
28-07-2009, 10:28
The enemies of the Imperium are fairly tough, so a run of the mill regiment, unsupported, is likely to get overrun, so you would need something above average (or even exceptional), especially if you plan an entire series of books around a single unit.

It also makes for a better story.

Could you do a story about an average IG regiment? Sure, but then the characters need to be above average in ability and luck.

Solar_Eclipse
28-07-2009, 11:07
Abnett has his own brand of 40k, a brand where guardsmen can lay the smack down on CSM and humans can carry heavy bolters....


Which Guardsman are you talking about? You mean the Elite squad of stealthers which outnumbered the Chaos Squad, if i recall?

And Abnett has a single Guardsman holding a heavy bolter, Bragg.

Ox and Harker are both creations of other writers.

it isnt that bad.



If you were facing attack from a traitor titan legion, idealy you would have your own titans to engage them, however if all you had were tanks you would still comit them regarldless of the losses

The problem is that that is a stupid number of casualties for what is supposedly a core of a Elite Regiment from cadia led by an accomplished tanker.

Of the 800,000 Leman Russes, around 8000 of them would be vanquishers, giving an edge to an already incredible amount of firepower. See Epic to find how nasty they actually are.

Of the Super Heavy squadrons, a significant portion of them would be Shadowswords, no?



Could you do a story about an average IG regiment? Sure, but then the characters need to be above average in ability and luck.

Thats my question? Why do they have to be above average?

Why are guardsmen seen by GW as useless dimwitted soldiers when the way they are portrayed in Dan Abnett makes for better reading, gives better credit to their foes when they are defeated and makes the Imperial Guard more than a joke?

This idea of the 'aveage Imperial Guard regiment' is the one which annoys me, since there is no gauge?

In a straight fight on planet bowling ball should an 'average Imperial Guard regiment' defeat a Space Marine Chapter?

Most literature would say no, i disagree, i think certainly they could.

If that were true, it would give more credit to the marines for being so good at strategy and tactics to succeed as often as they do.

It gives credit to the Guard as well by making them the competent fighting force which i believe they should be.

Both forces benefit by giving them both the respect they deserve.

Nicha11
28-07-2009, 11:11
Which Guardsman are you talking about? You mean the Elite squad of stealthers which outnumbered the Chaos Squad, if i recall?

And Abnett has a single Guardsman holding a heavy bolter, Bragg.




A normal human cannot lift a bolter there is no way a human (no matter how large) could life a heavy bolter.

Also there are parts from the first Gaunts Ghosts trilogy (correct me if I'm wrong).

Where about 200 Ghosts infiltrate the enemy stronghold and lay the smack down on the CSM concealed within.
I don't care that the CSM get their a***s wooped, merely that lasguns seem able to floor them with contemptuous ease.

Dhazzakull
28-07-2009, 11:12
In both cenarios veteran guard armoured regiments fight against chaos scum without real training and inferior equip. I think abnett is painting a realistic picture.

Poseidal
28-07-2009, 11:18
A normal human cannot lift a bolter there is no way a human (no matter how large) could life a heavy bolter.


Er, there are loads of humans in almost all human lines carrying regular bolters, several of which aren't in Power Armour or have any way of helping them lift them.

There was a guardsmen in the Last Chancers who had a Heavy Bolter, and carried it by himself. Also, in Necromunda, gangers carry heavy bolters if you buy them for them.

Solar_Eclipse
28-07-2009, 11:24
A normal human cannot lift a bolter there is no way a human (no matter how large) could life a heavy bolter.

There are a very large amount of them, backgroundwise and model wise who do. Poseidal has fielded this, though.



Also there are parts from the first Gaunts Ghosts trilogy (correct me if I'm wrong).

Where about 200 Ghosts infiltrate the enemy stronghold and lay the smack down on the CSM concealed within.
I don't care that the CSM get their a***s wooped, merely that lasguns seem able to floor them with contemptuous ease.

I rememeber that part.

200 Ghosts+the remains of another regiment infiltrate into the enemy stronghold, out pops one (1) chaos Marine and he does get killed eventually to a Lasgun on high Power to the back of the Head.

It really wasnt easy.

Lavadude360
28-07-2009, 11:26
Where about 200 Ghosts infiltrate the enemy stronghold and lay the smack down on the CSM concealed within.



But there won't be 200 CSM will there? So you've got in my estimation around 30 CSM (lets be realistic there aren't going to be any more than that) versus 200 lasguns, fired by expert marksmen.

Now asides from the "lasguns are teh *****!!! ROFLzor!!! " idiots can we not agree that being shot by lots of lasers is gonna ruin you're day especially if;

1.You aren't expecting it.
2.You've also got grenades, straight silvers and a really pissed off Commissar hitting you too.

LD thinks that the guard have both elite and crappy elements. Would you read a book where the main character has no skills whatsoever and couldn't kill a grot? No, in all seriousness you wouldn't. But do you want to read about the best humans there are (marines aren't human by a long shot) kicking the **** off all kind of xeno and heretic?

See my point?

LD

Lowmans
28-07-2009, 11:29
@Solar_Eclipse

Take a look at Titanicus for Abnetts take on what happens when Titan meets tanks (and Titan).
Basically, whatever Abnett has decided is the focus of the tale is the ultimate of badassery. If he wrote an Eldar book he'd have an Avatar scraping bits of Imperator Titan off it's boots. If he wrote a Dark Eldar book he'd have an Archon with a harem of Eldar Farseers and an Avatar footstool.
In one Abnett book (Traitor General I think) he writes regarding CSM that the mere appearance of one had been enough to put IG battle lines to flight. However, earlier in the series The Ghosts had slaughtered World Eaters without a problem and in the same book Gaunt a squad of underequipped guard and the natives slaughter a squad without difficulty.

The Abnett books imho scrape by with the very vaguest understanding of the universe he is writing in.

Solar_Eclipse
28-07-2009, 11:30
LD thinks that the guard have both elite and crappy elements. Would you read a book where the main character has no skills whatsoever and couldn't kill a grot? No, in all seriousness you wouldn't. But do you want to read about the best humans there are (marines aren't human by a long shot) kicking the **** off all kind of xeno and heretic?

See my point?


Actually, no, thats not what i want to see?

I want to see them WORK for their victories. Like every force should.

Now Guard should NOT be on the backfoot every time simply because they are Guard. But they should not steamroll their opponents either.

This is why i avoid books about marines, since i think it would be difficult to portray them in a way where they have to work at their victories since most of the really difficult stuff would be the planning and intel before the battle.




Take a look at Titanicus for Abnetts take on what happens when Titan meets tanks (and Titan).

I have been considering reading it.



In one Abnett book (Traitor General I think) he writes regarding CSM that the mere appearance of one had been enough to put IG battle lines to flight. However, earlier in the series The Ghosts had slaughtered World Eaters without a problem and in the same book Gaunt a squad of underequipped guard and the natives slaughter a squad without difficulty.


Catch an enemy who is unaware of you and they will die, that is simple. The Khornates were outnumbered and outstealthed.

Also, in Traitor general, what makes you think that squadron was underequipped?

They had their rifles, grenades, armour, pistols, etc.

They were led by a very skilled commander with a powerful relic from the dark age of Technology.

AND they had support from the natives (eventually)

AND they caught the enemy unaware, again.

AND they got incredibly lucky, as they mention in it.

AND the Chaos marines were very arrogant.

Condottiere
28-07-2009, 11:49
Thats my question? Why do they have to be above average?

Why are guardsmen seen by GW as useless dimwitted soldiers when the way they are portrayed in Dan Abnett makes for better reading, gives better credit to their foes when they are defeated and makes the Imperial Guard more than a joke?

This idea of the 'aveage Imperial Guard regiment' is the one which annoys me, since there is no gauge?

In a straight fight on planet bowling ball should an 'average Imperial Guard regiment' defeat a Space Marine Chapter?

Most literature would say no, i disagree, i think certainly they could.

If that were true, it would give more credit to the marines for being so good at strategy and tactics to succeed as often as they do.

It gives credit to the Guard as well by making them the competent fighting force which i believe they should be.

Both forces benefit by giving them both the respect they deserve.Could a fully reinforced IG regiment with supporting artillery and integrated armour and air support take on a Marine chapter. Yes.

All that extra equipent would mark them, if not an elite unit, certainly a veteran one trusted to operate independently. Could they win, I doubt it, even assuming the marines are left to their own resources without orbital support. It would be a Pyrrhic victory. An ordinary IG regiment would have been destroyed in relatively short order.

When facing extraordinary foes, your heroes have to rise to extraordinary levels, so either the regiment does that on a whole, or certain of their leaders and members do. Assuming just for a moment that it is possible for an IG regiment to defeat a Marine Chapter, their commander would have to be a tactical genius, and his troops be able to perform exceptionally well under fire, which tends to indicate that the regiment is above average.

ashc
28-07-2009, 11:56
If books didn't have heroes, victories, fighting against the odds and beating your foe, then what would be the point...? It's pulpy scifi-fiction, enjoy it for what it is.

The best part's of Abnett's books are always when he is describing the universe far and away from what might go on on the tabletop. This is why, in my opinion, the Eisenhorn series is far and above Abnett's best piece of fiction, in fact the best fiction from Black Library.

Allen
28-07-2009, 11:58
Funny how many people describe Abnett as having only the most basic grasp of the universe he's writing of. One wonders how many GW-sanctioned professional writers post on Warseer...

Anyway, back on topic.
I assume the interpretation of another poster (the Guard is composed by highly trained and competent soldiers who gets slaughtered by much more advanced and competent alien warriors) is correct. Abnett fiction is a little over the top when he deals with Guardsmen, I admit that, but on the other hand GW fiction is quite childish when they deal with the Guard, so...

Nicha11
28-07-2009, 11:59
On the bolters, total brain fart on my behalf.

I was dimly recalling another BL work where an inquisiter couldn't lift a bolter.
But now I'm recalling the hundreds of other instances where normal humans do!

(time for some sleep now I think).

Lord_Crull
28-07-2009, 12:04
And Abnett has a single Guardsman holding a heavy bolter, Bragg.


No, he has Brostin and Corbec carry autocannons and heavy stubbers in two books I recall.


Which Guardsman are you talking about? You mean the Elite squad of stealthers which outnumbered the Chaos Squad, if i recall?


You mean the elite squad of stealthers who where wounded sick and held captive by the local peasants and where amubushed by the CSM?


Could a fully reinforced IG regiment with supporting artillery and integrated armour and air support take on a Marine chapter. Yes.


No they would never be able to do that in a million years because the marines could just annhilate them form orbit with thier ships.

.......Of wait, you meant on the ground? Depends on the size of the regiment, we have regiments numbering 100,000 men and regiments numbering 1,000 men. I need to know the size and type of regiment.


And Solar Express you have obviously not read Brothers of the Snake. It's just not the Ghosts, Abnett makes all his protagonists Mary Sues that go way above and beyond what other authors do.



This is why i avoid books about marines, since i think it would be difficult to portray them in a way where they have to work at their victories since most of the really difficult stuff would be the planning and intel before the battle.


You mean like Warriors of Ultramar? Where the Ultramarines barely win and take massive casulties? Or Courage and Honor? Where They only win because Uriel bluffed the Tau commander in a show of oratory and not brute strength?


@Solar_Eclipse

Take a look at Titanicus for Abnetts take on what happens when Titan meets tanks (and Titan).
Basically, whatever Abnett has decided is the focus of the tale is the ultimate of badassery. If he wrote an Eldar book he'd have an Avatar scraping bits of Imperator Titan off it's boots. If he wrote a Dark Eldar book he'd have an Archon with a harem of Eldar Farseers and an Avatar footstool.
In one Abnett book (Traitor General I think) he writes regarding CSM that the mere appearance of one had been enough to put IG battle lines to flight. However, earlier in the series The Ghosts had slaughtered World Eaters without a problem and in the same book Gaunt a squad of underequipped guard and the natives slaughter a squad without difficulty.

The Abnett books imho scrape by with the very vaguest understanding of the universe he is writing in.

QFT

Lowmans
28-07-2009, 12:14
Actually, no, thats not what i want to see?

Catch an enemy who is unaware of you and they will die, that is simple. The Khornates were outnumbered and outstealthed.

Also, in Traitor general, what makes you think that squadron was underequipped?

They had their rifles, grenades, armour, pistols, etc.

They were led by a very skilled commander with a powerful relic from the dark age of Technology.

AND they had support from the natives (eventually)

AND they caught the enemy unaware, again.

AND they got incredibly lucky, as they mention in it.

AND the Chaos marines were very arrogant.

In the instance in the series before Traitor General that has been previously mentioned I would agree with you -

Except that there is also a sequence in the series where World Eaters Berzerkers ambush an armoured column the Ghosts are with....... guess what happens!?

I feel in Traitor General they were underequipped because at the beginning of the fight they didn't have their weapons, they had no heavy weapon and the squad was understrength and sickening.

Abnett also builds up this mighty psychological impact that CSMs have.... then completely ignores it.

ImperiusDominatus
28-07-2009, 12:14
On the bolters, total brain fart on my behalf.

I was dimly recalling another BL work where an inquisiter couldn't lift a bolter.
But now I'm recalling the hundreds of other instances where normal humans do!

(time for some sleep now I think).
You weren't too far off. There's many different types of Bolter models, some of which are made to be used by normal humans, whilst others tend to be too heavy and unwieldy for anyone other than a Marine.

Promethius
28-07-2009, 12:17
Am I the only one who can see those tank losses as potentially reasonable? The traitor titan legion may well have included one or more imperator titans, as well as many battle class titans in addition to scout units and daemon engines. A single warhound could destroy many, many tanks, especially given it's rapid manouevering capabilities compared to it's foes (something not well represented on the table-top). In addition, as much as the Imperial force must have included multiple vanquishers, stormswords etc, it must also have included hellhounds, punishers, stormlords and other anti-infantry tanks that were almost useless. To take out a titan legion with only tanks is no mean feet.

As for abnett, I enjoy his books but they are very overblown. Which isn't to say that guard forces don't regularly defeat a vast number of different enemies (if they didn't the imperium would simply not exist). It's more that he creates situations for a 'hollywood effect' type show-down that don't really make sense when you consider the forces involved (guardsmen destroying dreadnought with an overcharged lasgun, no casulaties in an almost equal number guard vs c.marines slug-fest). His best books are 40k universe novels, like eisenhorn, where there is more realism and he gets to show us more of the imperium's peacetime culture.

Condottiere
28-07-2009, 12:23
No they would never be able to do that in a million years because the marines could just annhilate them form orbit with thier ships.

.......Of wait, you meant on the ground? Depends on the size of the regiment, we have regiments numbering 100,000 men and regiments numbering 1,000 men. I need to know the size and type of regiment.
Take a standard brigade size.

Remember, the operative words were, "... take on ...".

BladeWolf
28-07-2009, 12:43
I'l get to my thoughts of Dan in a sec, I just wanna make a point if that's alright?

Marine on guard fights are a difficult type to judge, As pointed out it depends on the Chapter, the Regiment, the Planet itself and the resources at hand.

Two fully equipped forces and the Commanders are competent (For argument sake lets assume that the IG number about 50,000)

Open Battle:- Almost Never Happen but arguably the IG by sheer weight of numbers and armour (you can only carry so many bolts and missiles). I say never happen because the Marine Commander will (if he's smart) Drop Pod or Thunderhawk directly into the Imperial Command post or surround the assault force. Number don't matter if you cant move for shells raining around you.

Also, in an Armour battle, as soon as the Infantry are gone, pinned or forced to retreat, the battle is already won. Evidence; See any Tank battle where the Infantry are defeated, suddenly the great armoured, cannon-wielding behemoths cant see much with getting shot or buttoned, then the Melta/Missile dude shows up and game over. (Tabletop doesn't show that very well)

This is of course the same in reverse almost for IG over marines.

I say almost because, depending on chapter and the terrain, the Marines may be able to force a breakthrough manoeuvre. some Chapters like say the Black Templars, wouldn't mind being surrounded and would charge forward chainswords swinging. Other Chapters, such as the Imperial Fist would dig in as is their trade, the Blood Ravens (for point of argument) may use their touted Librarians and read where the enemy is weakest and batter a path through. the Blood Angels? God help you... Death Company... feel no pain...

More likely then not the Marines would just nuke the IG from orbit the only way to be sure.(Battle Barges to tie up the Navy while Strike Cruisers make for low orbit), then perhaps Drop pod to the IG commander and introduce him to mister bolter.

Ship-Boarding:- The Marine have the definite advantage. Armsmen shotguns with the occasional stubber (Can't risk breaching the hull) vs a power-armoured bolter wielding Marine who couldn't care less if there was any oxygen on the ship.

Counterwise and the IG would be massacred (IMO)Now perhaps again this is subject to Chapter but My personal thought is that the Serfs on the SM vessels have their own 'Defence' teams that are armed to the same standard as IG Stormtroopers (Hellgun, Carapace armour, Respirator etc...), then see previous comment about not caring about atmosphere not to mention the Hulking supermen still aboard awaiting the shuttles to go bash your mate on your ship.

In Open/Field Environments then the IG will have the advantage, being able to bring all their weapons to bear on a target and clear sight lines.

Urban/Hive/built-up areas then Marines, the ability to attack then retreat to the somewhat cover along with far-more mobile support units (Land Speeders, Bikes, Whirlwinds)

Now on to Dan Abnett, Though I think he can write battle brilliantly, and I hold Eisenhorn as an example of writing excellence, I do think he talks out his behind some/most of the time. But the defining factor I think is that he's entertaining.

On a note, while Bragg may be able to carry a HB, no way in hell could he fire it without bracing without ripping his arms off.

Poseidal
28-07-2009, 12:47
On a note, while Bragg may be able to carry a HB, no way in hell could he fire it without bracing without ripping his arms off.

Heavy Bolters fire self propelled bullets, which reduces the recoil as it doesn't need an excessive charge to fire the projectile, just a primer.

Also, the immense weight of the gun also reduced the recoil by a significant part. The heavier the gun, the less recoil is felt.

Heavy Bolters probably have less recoil than Heavy Stubbers, and definitely less than Autocannons.

Solar_Eclipse
28-07-2009, 13:12
No they would never be able to do that in a million years because the marines could just annhilate them form orbit with thier ships.

Its called a Hypothetical Scenario.



.......Of wait, you meant on the ground? Depends on the size of the regiment, we have regiments numbering 100,000 men and regiments numbering 1,000 men. I need to know the size and type of regiment.


And Solar Express you have obviously not read Brothers of the Snake. It's just not the Ghosts, Abnett makes all his protagonists Mary Sues that go way above and beyond what other authors do.


Thats interesting, in your last thread you went all flimsy since someone called you "crully" and youve called me "Solar Express" 3 times now.


You mean like Warriors of Ultramar? Where the Ultramarines barely win and take massive casulties? Or Courage and Honor? Where They only win because Uriel bluffed the Tau commander in a show of oratory and not brute strength?

Yes, like that.



In the instance in the series before Traitor General that has been previously mentioned I would agree with you -

Except that there is also a sequence in the series where World Eaters Berzerkers ambush an armoured column the Ghosts are with....... guess what happens!?

The World Eaters Ambush the Armoured column....and are then ambushed by the Ghosts.



Am I the only one who can see those tank losses as potentially reasonable? The traitor titan legion may well have included one or more imperator titans, as well as many battle class titans in addition to scout units and daemon engines. A single warhound could destroy many, many tanks, especially given it's rapid manouevering capabilities compared to it's foes (something not well represented on the table-top). In addition, as much as the Imperial force must have included multiple vanquishers, stormswords etc, it must also have included hellhounds, punishers, stormlords and other anti-infantry tanks that were almost useless. To take out a titan legion with only tanks is no mean feet.

A single Russ Company is usually enough to take on anything up to Warlord size in Epic.

BladeWolf
28-07-2009, 13:46
Heavy Bolters fire self propelled bullets, which reduces the recoil as it doesn't need an excessive charge to fire the projectile, just a primer.

Also, the immense weight of the gun also reduced the recoil by a significant part. The heavier the gun, the less recoil is felt.

Heavy Bolters probably have less recoil than Heavy Stubbers, and definitely less than Autocannons.

Fair enough, It just every depiction I see of a bolter in action (DoW mainly) shows muzzle flashes, casings, and a definite kick to them but then again it could just depend on the author.

BladeWolf
28-07-2009, 13:50
A single Russ Company is usually enough to take on anything up to Warlord size in Epic.

It could be a possible sign of Story-Gameplay segregation? In the background (admittedly this is what were talking about) A Space Marine is generally insta-certified badass I think we can all agree. but their in game stats are only slightly better then a guardsmen.

Balance and Fluff can be two very different things, Also could depend on what that Warlord has equipped.

Poseidal
28-07-2009, 13:56
Fair enough, It just every depiction I see of a bolter in action (DoW mainly) shows muzzle flashes, casings, and a definite kick to them but then again it could just depend on the author.

Well, muzzle flash wouldn't be related to recoils, it would probably be the primer lighting up which itself would be a reasonable (though not excessive) charge.

There would be recoil as it causes a projectile to move, though the Heavy Bolter has reduced recoil because the bolt doesn't leave the muzzle at max velocity (as the bolt's own rocket will do that after it has left the body, like with rocket launchers as well) and the it's a heavy weapon, so recoil will be less felt.

Casing could be the primer casing, are bolters described as caseless? it might only be some models that are caseless.

Inquisitor Lord
28-07-2009, 13:58
Kinda just skimmed what has been said so far. On the Heavy Bolter totting Guard try Harker from the new codex who does just that. On fighting the Titan Legion, think of what they have. Lets take Mortis from Mechanicum who only had what was on Mars and not all of there stuff that was off fighting in the Great Crusade, I cant remember exactly but they had somewhere around 5 Warhounds, 3 Reavers, 2 Warlords, and 1 Imperator. A Volcano cannon, the strength D biggest blast weapon, can easily destroy however many Leman Russes you can fit underneath the blast. Every single one under the blast is probably going to get destroyed. If you have a bunch of strength D totting Titans they can eat through some tanks quickly. From the size of the Imperial force I think it would be safe to assume that there are a whole lot of Titans. Also when you get to that many tanks the tactics are more of charge forward and shoot in tight formation all as close together as possible rather than being able to dodge and do fancy stuff.

RCgothic
28-07-2009, 14:00
The Sabbat worlds crusades is mostly against renegade forces. It's perfectly reasonable that a well-equipped professional force that the majority of the IG certainly is would do pretty well in the circumstances.

In the ghosts novels, the CSM encounters have been pretty well done. In the first instance when infiltrating the enemy stronghold, there are only two World Eaters against several companies of guardsmen. The kill ratio was still in the World Eater's favour.
When the CSMs ambushed the armoured column, it was just one squad against companies of guardsmen who were themselves in a good ambush position.
In the village, initially prisoners, the ghosts re-armed and got into ambush positions before their presence was revealed, the CSMs were overconfident, and the ghosts were very lucky, as was pointed out.

Abnett described a conscript battle on Gereon, and it was just as bloody, brutal and pointless as described elsewhere in the fluff.

The reader has to make a judgement call. Are the majority of regiments professional, competant units similar to the Volpone Bluebloods, the Valhallan 597th or the Vitrian Dragoons, or are they mostly poorly equipped conscripts?

I like to think that whilst conscript regiments definitely exist, even the Imperium could not supply enough manpower to survive if that was the norm. The Guard is an effective fighting unit, and when turned loose against renegades or traiter IG they are more than capable of holding their own. Yes, they suffer against the horrific opponents of the 40k Galaxy and beyond, but they do so professionally, and I think Abnett writes it perfectly.

Lord_Crull
28-07-2009, 14:47
Thats interesting, in your last thread you went all flimsy since someone called you "crully" and youve called me "Solar Express" 3 times now.


I made a typo, I was writing a review for Polar Express for my Collage newspaper for the Summer and I made a brainfart, I keep on confusing your name, I apologize.


Take a standard brigade size.

Remember, the operative words were, "... take on ...".

I will assume 5,000 men then, vs/ 1,000 marines in a moderately fortified field.


Scouts are infiltrated, positions of heavy weapons and commanders are noted.

A brief orbital bombardment comes down, directed predeceeding the main drop pod assualt, this is not a full on exterminatus and is Planetstrike Firestorm really, Marines are described doing it in the 4th edition codex.

First wave of deathwinds come down, land open fire with assualt cannons and missle launchers. Kill Guardsmen and inflict panic.

Then in comes the actual marines, an entire chapter against, first to be targeted will be the leaders positions and artiliery, after that is taken out it's a battle against a group of disorganized and cut up Guard formations. Thunderhawks come down to provide air support and land vehicles.

The marines take casulties in the mopping up operations, but good use of the central position should give victory to the marines in short order.



In the village, initially prisoners, the ghosts re-armed and got into ambush positions before their presence was revealed, the CSMs were overconfident, and the ghosts were very lucky, as was pointed out.


No, they won because of plot armor, if they had no character shields they would have died in seconds.

If the Chaos marines where the main characters and the ghosts the mooks then the Marines would have won. If the Damocles Squad had done the attack on the villiage instead they would have annhilated the Ghosts and the entire villiage without taking a scratch.

x-esiv-4c
28-07-2009, 14:56
you made a "typo".

Lord_Crull
28-07-2009, 14:58
I make spelling mistakes all the time, I am not perfect.

x-esiv-4c
28-07-2009, 15:03
Never implied that you were.

Lowmans
28-07-2009, 15:26
The World Eaters Ambush the Armoured column....and are then ambushed by the Ghosts.


Fair enough, I apologise, I am get old I forget I am forgetful.

However, it still holds true that in a book written by Abnett with World Eaters as its focus the Khorne boys would've been knee deep in intestines even if they'd been ambushed by a couple of regiments of Kasrkin.

Regarding the IG vs Marine chapter thing, it is very likely to be a battle on the Marines terms - simply due to the flexibility of their formations (and likely tactics) compared to the guard.

I don't think the psychological effects on the guard have been well considered. Many would probably consider facing the 'Angels of Death' as a death sentence with all the associated poor morale that would go with.

Many might break and run as the droppods appeared and more so at the site of the first marine. This isn't to mention the sight of a marine shrugging off lasfire as your mates burst open around you and theire body armour doesn't stop a single round. Combat is bad enough, combat against these things...... Realworld statistics show many soldiers don't/won't fire during combat and many more don't fire effectively. Marines with hypnotic training, immunity to battle stress etc. don't have these issues. They won't duck down and stay there, they won't break and run like men. The IG, regardless of numbers have massive inherent disadvantages because they're just human.

And.... once the Guard start running they won't stop, it's like a disease it just spreads outwards....

I'm NOT saying it's impossible for the guard to win versus marines, just saying it's more complex than has been discussed thus far. Because you can't quantify fighting power without looking at the morale and training of the men.

ML Kurze
28-07-2009, 15:43
If I remember correctly, Abnett stated in an interview that the Ghosts would not have lasted the number of books they have of late if he would let them take the casualties he would find normal in the 40k universe (it's in the Inferno Gaunt's Ghosts issue).
The first plan for the ghost series was that it would span three books and that would lead to the end of the ghosts and Gaunt. However, due to popular demand he needs to keep them alive longer.
That's why at the end of Necropolis a new batch of troops drops in. Also, if you read from Ghostmaker onwards, you'll notice a lot of Ghosts taking wounds that imply their deaths, and suddenly they're back alive and kicking. And, as he said in the interview, he wanted to explore new directions in the Imperial Guard by making them more elitist: recon and commando specialist. Perhaps it would allow him to get away with them surviving many a battle.

So, about realism. I think Abnett is preserving the Ghosts to make 'm last longer, and in the proces kills of the allies of the Ghosts like the Pardus, Roame Deepers (sp?), the Vitrians, ect. But, I must admit, the main Ghost characters sometimes do survive enormous odds even though they get thrown into hopeless situations a lot. Remember First and Only, Necropolis, Straigth Silver, Sabbath Martyr, His Last Command and Only in Death. First and Only, Straigth Silver and His Last Command didn't cost the Ghosts a lot of lives since there were other bullet soaks to take it, but Sabbath Martyr and Only in Death each costed around half of the Ghosts (coincidental, but there it is).
So, on the one hand the Ghosts suffer badly, but on the other hand walk away from some battles with virtually no casualties as found in Ghostmaker (the end battle), The Guns of Tanith and Traitor General. I do agree with some that the fights against the CSM's and other powerful warp beings as found in Traitor General were way to easy for the them without sustaining even a single casualty. Even a badly wounded Ghost would've been better then none at all.

Condottiere
28-07-2009, 16:21
I will assume 5,000 men then, vs/ 1,000 marines in a moderately fortified field.


Scouts are infiltrated, positions of heavy weapons and commanders are noted.

A brief orbital bombardment comes down, directed predeceeding the main drop pod assualt, this is not a full on exterminatus and is Planetstrike Firestorm really, Marines are described doing it in the 4th edition codex.

First wave of deathwinds come down, land open fire with assualt cannons and missle launchers. Kill Guardsmen and inflict panic.

Then in comes the actual marines, an entire chapter against, first to be targeted will be the leaders positions and artiliery, after that is taken out it's a battle against a group of disorganized and cut up Guard formations. Thunderhawks come down to provide air support and land vehicles.

The marines take casulties in the mopping up operations, but good use of the central position should give victory to the marines in short order.
It's not whether the Chapter will win, because they will, it's how much damage they take from the brigade, who know their MO and sets up accordingly.

The old joke has always been that the Chinese could afford to lose a million soldiers, if they could kill a hundred thousand Japanese, since sooner or later, the Japanese would run out of men.

Solar_Eclipse
28-07-2009, 16:36
I will assume 5,000 men then, vs/ 1,000 marines in a moderately fortified field.


Scouts are infiltrated, positions of heavy weapons and commanders are noted.

A brief orbital bombardment comes down, directed predeceeding the main drop pod assualt, this is not a full on exterminatus and is Planetstrike Firestorm really, Marines are described doing it in the 4th edition codex.

First wave of deathwinds come down, land open fire with assualt cannons and missle launchers. Kill Guardsmen and inflict panic.

Then in comes the actual marines, an entire chapter against, first to be targeted will be the leaders positions and artiliery, after that is taken out it's a battle against a group of disorganized and cut up Guard formations. Thunderhawks come down to provide air support and land vehicles.

The marines take casulties in the mopping up operations, but good use of the central position should give victory to the marines in short order.

And you miss the point entirely.

Do you actually read the words?

I said in Straight Up Fight on Planet Bowling Ball A guard Regiment would tear a marine army apart.

This is me saying that Marines win battles because of their fast strikes, not because of their staying power. Marines have little staying power in a straight up fight since they cannot take Heavy Artillery.

Anyway. This is diverging from the thread.



However, it still holds true that in a book written by Abnett with World Eaters as its focus the Khorne boys would've been knee deep in intestines even if they'd been ambushed by a couple of regiments of Kasrkin.

If that happened, the book would be crap. But realistic protagonists and antagonists and actual challenges are what makes books great. The problem is that GW writers seem to want to make something look good by overdoing it.

Abnett's Imperial Forces remove alot of the over the top Imperialness which makes them work effectively without losing alot of their charm. It makes them more serious since they are an effective army in their own right.

Grrr i knew i shouldnt have made that Guard vs Marine analogy since it takes away from the actual thread while people argue in circles about a hypothetical scenario attempting to point out both the good points of Guard and Marines...but of course Marine players cant have that...Grr

Awilla the Hun
28-07-2009, 16:52
Please, lets not make this into "The Great IG Myth: Round X". Crull, Solar_Eclipse: shake hands now. Forget the utterly pointless struggles of the past.

-----------------

I was about to put an IG vs Marine post here, but I stopped myself. It has been covered.

Condottiere
28-07-2009, 16:52
We have met the enemy and he is ourselves.

Solar_Eclipse
28-07-2009, 17:01
Please, lets not make this into "The Great IG Myth: Round X". Crull, Solar_Eclipse: shake hands now. Forget the utterly pointless struggles of the past.

Which is basically what i was trying to do. Ruing as i am that i posted something which i knew would be taken out of context.

Anyway, to reiterate what i would like to discuss.

I believe that Dan Abnett portrays the Imperial Guard to be an effective and professional fighting force in its own right, which doesnt necessarily need to outnumber its enemy to take victory. A Guardsman should be equal to an Ork or a Gaunt, just not in pure strength. There are many enemies which Guardsmen should outnumber to take victory, but not to the degree that many think. Abnett gives a sense of realism through professional soldiering and thus gives his due to their foes by making sure the Imperial Guard is a challenge.

Dan Abnett: The Experienced and professional Regiment is the norm, the Meat Grinder regiment is the exception.

GW: The Meat Grinder Regiment is the norm, the Experienced and professional regiment is the exception.

I believe the first to be the correct one (although i play one of the exceptions, Death Korps.) but do you think GrimDark(TM) should be lessened to give a better chance to the Guard and for a better story?

Lord_Crull
28-07-2009, 17:24
I said in Straight Up Fight on Planet Bowling Ball A guard Regiment would tear a marine army apart.


And I agree comepletely, except fluffwise, battles are rarely fought like the Tabletop, the Marines will not politely line up across an open field and fight like a 18th century gunline at all.


It's not whether the Chapter will win, because they will, it's how much damage they take from the brigade, who know their MO and sets up accordingly.

The old joke has always been that the Chinese could afford to lose a million soldiers, if they could kill a hundred thousand Japanese, since sooner or later, the Japanese would run out of men.

Why not? I said 5,000 men for brigade size. That five thousand, not five hundred thousand.

The marines already hit them with an orbital bombardment and deathwinds before they even landed and took out there commanders and heavy tanks before they could react.

And now it's an entire chapter vs. less than 5,000 demoralized and disorganized men. It should be easy.




Dan Abnett: The Experienced and professional Regiment is the norm, the Meat Grinder regiment is the exception.

GW: The Meat Grinder Regiment is the norm, the Experienced and professional regiment is the exception.


I'll be honest, Dan Abnett does not write 40k. He writes his own universe that uses 40k terms. I never got the same vibe from him then reading the rest of the fluff. He does not fit very well into the codices much.

I would argue that the Imperial Guard is the professional and elite service, except everyone else is so much better, because of daemonic sorcery, genetic abilities, power armor, xenos bio-weapons or space elves, that frequently the Guard are outmatched.

Note that the majority of eniemes in the ghost novels are other traitor Guard, mostly normal humans. With Marines and other xenos appearing very few times.



I believe that Dan Abnett portrays the Imperial Guard to be an effective and professional fighting force in its own right, which doesnt necessarily need to outnumber its enemy to take victory. A Guardsman should be equal to an Ork or a Gaunt, just not in pure strength. There are many enemies which Guardsmen should outnumber to take victory, but not to the degree that many think. Abnett gives a sense of realism through professional soldiering and thus gives his due to their foes by making sure the Imperial Guard is a challenge.


Not really, abnett gives that to some of the non-ghost regiments, others he portrays as bad regiments, the ghosts outperform even the other Elite Stealther regiments of the Guard. I would not use them as comparison was they are clearly a freak abberation in the Guard, considering they regularly perform better than other elite regiments.



Abnett's Imperial Forces remove alot of the over the top Imperialness which makes them work effectively without losing alot of their charm. It makes them more serious since they are an effective army in their own right.


Then it's not the Imperial Guard anymore, it's Abnett's own army and interptretion.


I believe the first to be the correct one (although i play one of the exceptions, Death Korps.) but do you think GrimDark(TM) should be lessened to give a better chance to the Guard and for a better story?

Never, if it's not grimdark it's not 40k.

And authors have given us grimdark Guard with good stories, Graham McNeil and Steve Parker.

x-esiv-4c
28-07-2009, 17:35
Why even compare a chapter of ultramarines to 5000 IG? That's like comparing apples to oranges. If you are going to include all logistical support in one, then you should do it for both.

Lord_Crull
28-07-2009, 17:36
Why even compare a chapter of ultramarines to 5000 IG? That's like comparing apples to oranges. If you are going to include all logistical support in one, then you should do it for both.


Condottiere said a brigade strength, I assumed he meant 5000 men, I took his example, take it up with him then.

x-esiv-4c
28-07-2009, 17:38
Wow you're self-centered aren't you Crully? Did you think that perhaps for once a question wasn't directed to you? Did that even cross your mind at all?

Lord_Crull
28-07-2009, 17:39
Wow you're self-centered aren't you Crully? Did you think that perhaps for once a question wasn't directed to you? Did that even cross your mind at all?

You where talking about 5000 men, which was what I was just talking about, Condottiere never specified the exact number of the brigade, I said ''5,000'' I was talking about the hypothetical fight, he did not post anything beyond a single comment, it seemed fairly obvious

x-esiv-4c
28-07-2009, 17:42
*facepalm*
Wow Crully...Just.......wow.

Dogface
28-07-2009, 17:43
Dan Abnett said it himself. He had to stack up plot armor for the Ghosts due to demand. Tah dah, all the pointless nerd whinging can go away. He said it wasn't realistic, that they should have been close to gone by the third book.

And can people get the facts right? The cactus kills the dreadnought, not an overcharged Lasgun.

And my personal view is that in the 40k Universe the majority of the Imperial Guard are PLA Korean War era conscript rushes with the odd exception of elite, well trained USMC Recon style regiment. If anyone remembers that one Gaunt's Ghost book where Tona's adopted son (been a while since I've read all this) is deployed into battle with the RIP Troopers and they are all torn to pieces etc, with cruel and useless leaders?

That's what I think the majority of it is.

Edit:

Crully, stop talking. You make my head hurt.

Lord_Crull
28-07-2009, 17:43
*facepalm*
Wow Crully...Just.......wow.

Regarldess, even if you where not talking to me I can chose to respond to you as I wish, although I don't understand how you could have possibly gotten me and Condottiere's comments confused when they where quite different ad I was the only one talking about exact numbers.



Crully, stop talking. You make my head hurt.

No I'm not, if you can't take what I just posted then don't read the thread, it's simple. I can voice my opinion.

Dogface
28-07-2009, 17:46
*facepalm*
Wow Crully...Just.......wow.

Reiterated

RCgothic
28-07-2009, 17:47
And my personal view is that in the 40k Universe the majority of the Imperial Guard are PLA Korean War era conscript rushes with the odd exception of elite, well trained USMC Recon style regiment. If anyone remembers that one Gaunt's Ghost book where Tona's adopted son (been a while since I've read all this) is deployed into battle with the RIP Troopers and they are all torn to pieces etc, with cruel and useless leaders?

That's what I think the majority of it is.


We'll have to agree to disagree then.

Lord_Crull
28-07-2009, 17:47
Reiterated

So in other words you are mocking me because I share a different opinion and I actually have the guts to defend myself? You are essentially compaining about me responding to your posts.

It does not matter what mocking comments you make, I am still going to post.

Condottiere
28-07-2009, 17:52
No, 5000 men is about correct, if you have a fully reinforced IG regiment with all the bells and whistles, mechanized and armoured, combined arms include heavy air support and mobile artillery.

A normal Chapter on their own but with their vehicles, should have quite a dent in it.

Dogface
28-07-2009, 17:54
We'll have to agree to disagree then.

Yeah. My only backing for my opinion is looking at the real world. The elite groups are outnumbered by the unelite. I'm exaggerating when I'm saying the majority of the Imperial Guard are comprised of conscripts rushing pell mell at the enemy but I think it wouldn't be a stretch to say that only a few are trained to exacting standards of modern day elite military forces whereas the majority are upjumped PDF troopers (ala Titanicus)

Awilla the Hun
28-07-2009, 18:48
My view is that the Imperial Guard are extremely diverse. However, they are mostly similar to 1970s-modern army (not Special Forces) infantry, armoured, and occasionally paratroop regiments. They are not mostly Ia Drang US Air Cav, they are not mostly SAS, they are not mostly WW1 Tsarist Army (giving it credit, the Red Army in WW2 was largely above sending in Enemy at the Gates style human waves against "superior" Panzers.)

However, regiments of all sorts do exist for varying situations. The Elysians are good at paradrops. The Death Korps grind enemies down, which is sometimes required. The Mordians fire volleys from close order lines into attacking waves, which is good against charging Horde armies. And so on.

----------------------------

And x-esiv-4c? Please, please, please stop resurrecting the IG Myth thread. Never again. Ditto Lord Crull, Solar_Eclipse, and whoever else is doing this. I care not how you stop, but please do so.

x-esiv-4c
28-07-2009, 18:54
Stop resurrecting the IG myth thread? Wait...what?

Awilla the Hun
28-07-2009, 19:25
I mean the arguments. I made it again with rules that tried to prevent you from turning it into the internet equivalent of World War 1. Again. Stop dragging it into other threads.

borithan
28-07-2009, 21:09
Compare these to exploits from the codex where the Cadian (a VERY elite regiment, Cadians being the best of the best, Led by Commander Pask) 423rd Tank regiment lose 8000 tank companies (800,000 Leman Russes)That should be 80,000 tanks if it is 8000 tank companies, as there are 10 tanks to a company.



The point of this is to ask you, do you believe the Dan Abnett is giving a fair view on how the Imperial Guard fights? Or is he making them too effective?I take a position between the two. I personally do think Abnett makes the Guard too effective, or at least makes too much of the Guard too effective, ie professional quality soldiers being the norm where I feel they should exist but should be rare. This lies alongside other problems (Senior officers acting like NCOs, flamers acting like melta guns in effectiveness against tanks, often dropping much of the "technology is poorly understood" theme which is so much part of 40k etc), but I also feel that some of the particularly daft stories they give for the Imperial Guard in the Codex take it too far the other way (the 80,000 tanks example you gave previously, the 5 million or whatever lost taking what is apparently one fort). Myself I tend to think of the Guard as largely being conscript soldiers. When I mean conscript I don't mean ****, I just mean that they generally aren't volunteers and they aren't professionals. They are perfectly well trained, but not to the standard of a modern professional army. Basically I see them as being generally similar to 2nd World War armies in levels of training and motivation.



A normal human cannot lift a bolterThey most certainly can. The whole point of a bolter is to make such a large calibre weapon manageable for a normal human being. If a roughly 20mm weapon was just a conventional gun then the weight of the weapon and the recoil system needed would be beyond a normal human to carry (basically being a vehicle mounted weapon). However, a bolter fires the large round out at a low velocity (and humans can handle weapons which have larger projectiles which fire at low velocities. See 40mm grenade launchers for an example), meaning the recoil would be within a range a human could deal with. The rocket motor then kicks after it has left the barrel, allowing the bolt to reach near bullet like velocities.



there is no way a human (no matter how large) could life a heavy bolter.Always could do in the past.


Take a look at Titanicus for Abnetts take on what happens when Titan meets tanks (and Titan).Not read it, but I doubt it is what should happen, ie the Titan gets very very dead.


No, he has Brostin and Corbec carry autocannons and heavy stubbers in two books I recall.The Autocannon would be a problem, unlike the bolter/heavy bolter, as it is basically a conventional gun, so the whole weapon should be too big and heavy for one many to operate. A Heavy stubber on the other hand? Well, if it is a .50 cal alike then yeah, a bit hard, but then with advances in materials etc possible. A GPMG alike would be easily within a human's ability to carry.


are bolters described as caseless?Never. Some suggestions of such by the pictures of bolters in very early 1st edition days, but they have always been cased weapons since there has been any official stance on it.


I like to think that whilst conscript regiments definitely exist, even the Imperium could not supply enough manpower to survive if that was the norm.All conscript means is that the manpower is conscripted. It doesn't tell you anything about the actual quality of the fighting force. True, they do tend to be less well motivated as a professional force (as they were forced to do what they are doing, and don't see soldiering as their calling/job, but that is only a trend. Some conscript units could be just as determined as any professional unit), and historically they tend to be less well trained (usually because 1. they are part of bigger armies, giving less resources to train them and 2. they tend to spend less time in training), but a conscript unit can be perfectly good in combat, especially if properly led.

Lord_Crull
28-07-2009, 21:37
They most certainly can. The whole point of a bolter is to make such a large calibre weapon manageable for a normal human being. If a roughly 20mm weapon was just a conventional gun then the weight of the weapon and the recoil system needed would be beyond a normal human to carry (basically being a vehicle mounted weapon). However, a bolter fires the large round out at a low velocity (and humans can handle weapons which have larger projectiles which fire at low velocities. See 40mm grenade launchers for an example), meaning the recoil would be within a range a human could deal with. The rocket motor then kicks after it has left the barrel, allowing the bolt to reach near bullet like velocities.


Susposedly in the fluff Marines use large, upgunned versions of bolters, while the guard have a smaller--sized version, this is referenced in the Gaunt books and in Dark Heresy.

It it makes sense that the Guard could not lift a mairne bolter effectivly but has a smaller pattren bolter

Solar_Eclipse
28-07-2009, 23:24
Not really, abnett gives that to some of the non-ghost regiments, others he portrays as bad regiments, the ghosts outperform even the other Elite Stealther regiments of the Guard. I would not use them as comparison was they are clearly a freak abberation in the Guard, considering they regularly perform better than other elite regiments.


Out of Interest, which regiments does he portray as bad?

I dont remember any regiments which acted in an overly stupid way except for the RIP cadets, but they werent a regiment and had a psychopath commissar with them. The other regiments in the area probably acted with professionalism.


I'll be honest, Dan Abnett does not write 40k. He writes his own universe that uses 40k terms. I never got the same vibe from him then reading the rest of the fluff. He does not fit very well into the codices much.

I would argue that the Imperial Guard is the professional and elite service, except everyone else is so much better, because of daemonic sorcery, genetic abilities, power armor, xenos bio-weapons or space elves, that frequently the Guard are outmatched.

Note that the majority of eniemes in the ghost novels are other traitor Guard, mostly normal humans. With Marines and other xenos appearing very few times.

This is the point though.

Your a professional force and you begin fighting an enemy who outmatches your fighting skill.

If that happens, you dont suddenly reverse to conscript bum rushes, do you?



And my personal view is that in the 40k Universe the majority of the Imperial Guard are PLA Korean War era conscript rushes with the odd exception of elite, well trained USMC Recon style regiment. If anyone remembers that one Gaunt's Ghost book where Tona's adopted son (been a while since I've read all this) is deployed into battle with the RIP Troopers and they are all torn to pieces etc, with cruel and useless leaders?

That's what I think the majority of it is.

Why, though? I dont get how it is possible for that to happen.

Remember, the Imperial Guard come from the top 10% of the PDF of that world. That means that of all the armies of the world, the best 10% are taken for the Guard. This means you are going to get quality soldiers.



No I'm not, if you can't take what I just posted then don't read the thread, it's simple. I can voice my opinion.

Lord_Crull, you have voiced your opinion constantly on an off topic debate which you have been asked to stop.

Once more and i will call in the moderators because you are annoying other posters.

I know you and i have a history, im going to ignore it for now. You are not helping discussion in this thread, so if you continue to annoy other posters i will ask a mod to exclude you from it.

Noone is stopping you from posting, just from being rude.


That should be 80,000 tanks if it is 8000 tank companies, as there are 10 tanks to a company

Yes you are right, actually, i apologise.

But that is still an incredible number.

On the 'Technology is poorly understood' part How many of you could explain in detail to me how a computer motherboard works on your own?

What about the moniter your using?

The Car you drive, the mobile you use. You have the gist of what it does, but you dont know how it works.

You dont understand the technology, but you do know how to use it.

Now take something like a flamer, Im sure any dedicated flamer man knows how his flamer works, he has to clean it, repair it when it jams, etc.

He also probably believes that his Flamer has a soul, and that is very important in making it work properly.

An operator doesnt know how his cogitator works, his auspex, his modar. He doesnt get what happens to make the things appear on screen, he may have an idea, but its usually related to the machine spirit in the end.

He doesnt understand how his equipment works, but he can still use it.

Just because people in the Imperium use technology doesnt mean they understand how it works.

I believe that the majority of Guardsmen will become highly professional soldiers to the level of todays soldiers and possibly beyond. The simple facts that they are given highly effective weapons and armour, that they are taken from the top 10% of the PDF and that they are put into situations where they will take alot of casualties, and so they can either learn from their experience of being wounded, or the less professional ones will get killed.

Lord_Crull
28-07-2009, 23:57
Out of Interest, which regiments does he portray as bad?

I dont remember any regiments which acted in an overly stupid way except for the RIP cadets, but they werent a regiment and had a psychopath commissar with them. The other regiments in the area probably acted with professionalism.


The 40th regiment in Last Command, the aristocratic regiment in the same one. The Jantine are susposedly elite but Abnett portrays them as idiots. The Urdeshi have a vastly inferior performance to the Ghosts.

It's not so much as they are bad it's just the ghosts are so much better.



Remember, the Imperial Guard come from the top 10% of the PDF of that world. That means that of all the armies of the world, the best 10% are taken for the Guard. This means you are going to get quality soldiers.


Not always, if the best are drawn from a world that has not seen warfare in centuries then they are not going to be very good.

Not to mention that the goverenor may just send inferior soliders mixed in to avoid sending his best people away.



Lord_Crull, you have voiced your opinion constantly on an off topic debate which you have been asked to stop.


So have you, you have been warned as well. don't pin the blame on me. you share just as much as I do.

I already stopped talkign about it, as with Dogface and the others, don't bring it up again if you don't want to continue it.



Once more and i will call in the moderators because you are annoying other posters.


Same for you.



Noone is stopping you from posting, just from being rude.


I believed that was was personally insulted first and called ''self-centered'' and mocked. If anything I have been more polite than some other posters in this thread.



I know you and i have a history, im going to ignore it for now.


Then don't talk about that issue anymore, don't bring it up in your next post and I will not bring it up in mine.

GraveGuard
29-07-2009, 01:08
What people seem to just not see is that the Guard are protrayed as professional, proper, decent and even at times amazing soldiery its just those they tend to fight tend to be so much better than that.

Khorneguy
29-07-2009, 01:54
What people seem to just not see is that the Guard are protrayed as professional, proper, decent and even at times amazing soldiery its just those they tend to fight tend to be so much better than that.

Exactly. Don't forget most of the time in the Gaunts Ghosts books, they are fighting other humans, albeit corrupted and twisted humans.

As for fighting marines on Gereon, don't forget, the very atmosphere of Gereon altered the Ghost's judgement and their responses to certain situations. They considered legging it, but IIRC, it was Gaunt that decided they were going to make a stand, instead of running away forever - somehting they might not have decided to do had it not been for this clouding of judgement.

The marines were very arrogant in that situation and IIRC, it took a the equivilant of a demo charge, Gaunts power sword, a long las and a quarrel into the soft neck section of power armour (stated in the SM codex as a marines only weakness when his armour is sealed) to take them down, most of these methods are employed as last resorts. Hardly 'easy' by any shot, although tabletop-wise, i'd expect these methods to kill at least one marine apiece.

Also, consider that the Ghosts that go to Gereon are picked for the mission because they are the best damn soldiers in an elite regiment!

Solar_Eclipse
29-07-2009, 02:09
The 40th regiment in Last Command, the aristocratic regiment in the same one. The Jantine are susposedly elite but Abnett portrays them as idiots. The Urdeshi have a vastly inferior performance to the Ghosts.

I think you have things mixed up.

Just because they were either stupid, idiotic or scared doesnt mean they werent professional.

Remember, once Ludd got to those Foppish soldiers, they actually fought well.

The Jantine were never a pushover and the Urdeshi are equal to the ghosts, they are heavy infantry unit and they did that well.

The Pardus regiment, General Grizmunds regiment and all the others showed good tactical sense and professionalism when on the battlefield.

I understand the Ghosts are better, but thats why ive been trying to frame this discussion around the other regiments from the Gaunts Ghosts novels, not the Ghosts as such.


Not always, if the best are drawn from a world that has not seen warfare in centuries then they are not going to be very good.

Then it would be taken from the top 10% of the local Armies who will still be effective soldiers.



Not to mention that the goverenor may just send inferior soliders mixed in to avoid sending his best people away.
If this is discovered he is swiftly removed, it states this many times.

Dogface
29-07-2009, 03:48
The problem is when it comes down to the top 10%, you could still face a cream of the crap situation. I live in Singapore for instance as an expatriate. The Singaporean army is relatively advanced but has never fought a war. They have all the tools, but none of the experience. And then if you look at the 40k Universe, what happens when the PDF of certain planets don't even have the tools or experience?


Then it would be taken from the top 10% of the local Armies who will still be effective soldiers.

What local armies? If the world hasn't seen war in centuries?

Solar_Eclipse
29-07-2009, 04:08
What local armies? If the world hasn't seen war in centuries?

Find me a period of time in the World where there hasnt been a war on for...lets say...100 years.

Its basically Impossible.


The problem is when it comes down to the top 10%, you could still face a cream of the crap situation. I live in Singapore for instance as an expatriate. The Singaporean army is relatively advanced but has never fought a war. They have all the tools, but none of the experience. And then if you look at the 40k Universe, what happens when the PDF of certain planets don't even have the tools or experience?


The thing is that that may be true of Singapore, but its the WORLDS top 10%, not one place.

Dogface
29-07-2009, 04:15
I'm fairly certain that there are worlds that haven't seen warfare for a while. I know that it's referenced several times that there are planets in the Imperium that have been untouched by war.

And thing is, we have so much warfare on our planet because we're a bunch of bickering children defending our countries. What happens on a planet under one religion and one government? In a competently run government there won't be any World War Two's going on to keep the old war skills sharp.

And yes, I realize that if an Imperial Guard regiment was founded from our world then it would be full of United States Marines but my example of Singapore was, what happens when your top 10% of a planet haven't fought? Maybe better geared but that's it.

Solar_Eclipse
29-07-2009, 05:00
I'm fairly certain that there are worlds that haven't seen warfare for a while. I know that it's referenced several times that there are planets in the Imperium that have been untouched by war.

Im sure there are.

Im sure those planets are as such because they have a very well trained and powerful army.

Consider the planet Krieg, its been awhile since that Atomic Purging and yet they still churn out exemplary soldiers.



And thing is, we have so much warfare on our planet because we're a bunch of bickering children defending our countries. What happens on a planet under one religion and one government? In a competently run government there won't be any World War Two's going on to keep the old war skills sharp.


Such a planet would probably need a very effective police force, would it not?



And yes, I realize that if an Imperial Guard regiment was founded from our world then it would be full of United States Marines but my example of Singapore was, what happens when your top 10% of a planet haven't fought? Maybe better geared but that's it.

I disagree, i dont think it would all be US Marines at all, im sure some would be, of course, but they dont exactly have much over other Countries militaries.

anyway, thats off topic.

How many Imperial Worlds would be untouched by war? Eldar Raiders, Orks, Heretical humans, Tyranid splinter fleets, etc etc etc ad nausium.

Your top 10% of the planet would either have fought, or have been trained to an exemplary degree and are able to learn soldiering quickly.

Its an Imperial requirement that all planets bound under Imperial Law maintain their own PDF. Of these PDF comes the Imperial Guard. The PDF is often basically equipped, but it is taught how to work as a fighting force and can be quite effective on its own.

The Top 10% of the PDF would be those who are very dedicated and effective, and thus they would make highly effective soldiers.

Basically, all i am saying is that the Imperial Guard doesnt get caught on the backfoot every time a tyranid swarm appears. They know what they are doing. They have trained for these things for a good portion of their whole lives. They can identify basic Tyranid specimens, they know how to outflank, they know the protocol of battle. If they start fighting marines, their Officer wont just go "well, ive got 50 men, BAYONET CHARGE WOO!" he will actually think about it.

Its like the technology. They dont understand how it works, but they have pragmatic knowledge.

I think the only real Bayonet Charge armies are those who are culturally adept in mindset to do so, such as the Death Korps of Krieg.

Dogface
29-07-2009, 05:10
Im sure there are.

Im sure those planets are as such because they have a very well trained and powerful army.

Consider the planet Krieg, its been awhile since that Atomic Purging and yet they still churn out exemplary soldiers.

The problem are the Death Korp of Krieg aren't exemplary soldiers. Brave? Stubborn? Excellent uniforms? They've got all that, but these guys are themed like, and fight like they were in the trenches of Gallipoli. Ask anyone today whether the trench warfare of the early 1900s was effective.


Such a planet would probably need a very effective police force, would it not?

You don't export your police force. There are no Arbites Regiments fighting in the Imperial Guard. I'll take the example of Singapore again. It's peaceful but the police aren't ripped ubermensch. Just normal people.


I disagree, i dont think it would all be US Marines at all, im sure some would be, of course, but they dont exactly have much over other Countries militaries.

anyway, thats off topic.

To be honest I think that whatever the Imperial Guard Earth Regiment was founded from, it'd have to found from one country. A mixed regiment of the best soldiers from five dozen different countries would take the mixed regiment problems of 40k to a whole different level.


How many Imperial Worlds would be untouched by war? Eldar Raiders, Orks, Heretical humans, Tyranid splinter fleets, etc etc etc ad nausium.

Your top 10% of the planet would either have fought, or have been trained to an exemplary degree and are able to learn soldiering quickly.

Apparently the majority of Imperial worlds are untouched by war. That situation is set to change of course. I can't remember the source but I'm sure the delightful information jockeys on this site can produce that info.


Its an Imperial requirement that all planets bound under Imperial Law maintain their own PDF. Of these PDF comes the Imperial Guard. The PDF is often basically equipped, but it is taught how to work as a fighting force and can be quite effective on its own.

The Top 10% of the PDF would be those who are very dedicated and effective, and thus they would make highly effective soldiers.

And I would like to cite the example of the PDF in Titanicus. The top 10% of weekend warriors on a peacetime planet aren't something to make you tremble in your boots.


Basically, all i am saying is that the Imperial Guard doesnt get caught on the backfoot every time a tyranid swarm appears. They know what they are doing. They have trained for these things for a good portion of their whole lives. They can identify basic Tyranid specimens, they know how to outflank, they know the protocol of battle. If they start fighting marines, their Officer wont just go "well, ive got 50 men, BAYONET CHARGE WOO!" he will actually think about it.

I agree.

Marshal2Crusaders
29-07-2009, 05:18
Even the Death Korps don't bayonet charge immediatly. The Krieg exemplify the IG in general, a fighting force capable of fighting in any condition and doesn't mind having to charge into the mouth of Hell in the Emperor's name. They have siege regiments, armor, infantry, artillery and they use it.

PDF arn't weekend warriors but the planets Army. The Ig might outstrip some but planets like Cadia don't distinguish between PDF and IG. The CIG is even more hardcore than the IG and they never leave the Cadian system.

Condottiere
29-07-2009, 06:27
If it's a regular tithe, you can probably run a parallel military system, where regiments pledged to the IG can recruit volunteers, perhaps a little persuasive drafting of key personnel and led by a dedicated cadre.

RCgothic
29-07-2009, 07:10
When you're lifting the top 10% of the standing army, even when they've had no war experience in ages (in which case the sensible thing would be to assign aging commanders/commissars to the planet, who've had all the experience but can't keep fighting), you're going to get a professional fighting force.

Where this differs is if the planet is so pressed for its tithe that it does have to send out conscripts, or perhaps it's a cultural mindset or personal style of the commanding officer. These aren't going to be the majority of cases though.

Condottiere
29-07-2009, 07:24
One problem is that the experienced remnants aren't recalled back to their home planet to pass on their accumulated experience, and that because of a variety of cultural, communications and logistical concerns, you can't and don't initially integrate regiments from different planets together, that hard-won experience is wasted where it could do the most use.

Planets that are just factories producing IG regiments probably do have a considerable number of veterans filtering back and passing on their knowledge, but for the run of the mill Imperial world, that's unlikely.

Talos
29-07-2009, 10:43
I believe that unexperienced and untrained armies are the norm. Remember for the high command ammo is worth more than men.
Yes some worlds would produce elite regiments of guard but I feel that the poor worlds would just try and reach there quoto and may not have the resources to actually propely train there PDF or guard.

Edit: just reread the last page and saw that no IG vS SM posts.

Condottiere
29-07-2009, 10:52
A group of elite warriors penetrate a fortress, and can go after the defender piecemeal, compared to one where the IG regiment knows and sees them coming, and can concentrate all their firepower.

Lord_Crull
29-07-2009, 10:57
Find me a period of time in the World where there hasnt been a war on for...lets say...100 years.

Its basically Impossible.


The Swiss have not fought a war in almost 500 years.

Not to mention it's not really a valid comparison, we are perpetually divided, there are some planets in the Imperium that completely peaceful and united, while in others they where consumed with civil war.



Consider the planet Krieg, its been awhile since that Atomic Purging and yet they still churn out exemplary soldiers.


That's because they are a war world whose soldiers constantly train from birth to die.




The Jantine were never a pushover .

Yes they where, they used horrible tactics when trying to destroy the Ghosts.



The Pardus regiment, General Grizmunds regiment and all the others showed good tactical sense and professionalism when on the battlefield.


But the Guard codex has examples of professionalism and tactical sense, it's just that idiots also exist.

It's not so much as the fighting quality of the troops, look at Dravere, Sturm and Lugo, all idiots.



If this is discovered he is swiftly removed, it states this many times.

And if he is not discovered?



How many Imperial Worlds would be untouched by war? Eldar Raiders, Orks, Heretical humans, Tyranid splinter fleets, etc etc etc ad nausium.


Alot actually, Abnett's own novels have worlds that are not fighting a war and have not fought a war. The Cain novels show the same thing, there has been a few worlds who have not fought for centuries. One would imagine worlds in the Imperium's core near Terra would not have fought a war. Abnett's own novels imply that these worlds have not fought for a long time. He even says that Tanith has never fought for centuries since the last Civil War.



Your top 10% of the planet would either have fought, or have been trained to an exemplary degree and are able to learn soldiering quickly.

The Top 10% of the PDF would be those who are very dedicated and effective, and thus they would make highly effective soldiers.


Except there is no guarantee that they will be good soldiers at all. Training only goes so far.

Not to mention not all worlds are equal, a Guardsman raised from a peaceful argi-world is going to hardly be equal to a Guardsman raised from Cadia or Catachan.


Not all Guardsmen are going to be even decent soldiers, the sheer size and complexity of the Imperium prevents that. In the sheer scale of the Imperium there has to be some regiments who are incompetant or poor soldiers. They may not be the vast majority, but they exist.

If you really want a look at the poorly trained and run Guard, read Fifteen Hours, it's like night and day in comparing it to the Ghosts series.

Talos
29-07-2009, 10:58
I editted my post to get rid of my fortress post as it seems people are getting annoyed with the IG vs SM and it is a bit annoying and off-topic.
Condottiere if your post is about my post about the fortress, then I dont understand. Yes they penetrated the fortress but the Enemy knew they where coming and did focus all there heavy weapons on the SM. They did not sneak in they marched right up to the door, there was only one way into the fortress and that was filled with overlapping fire lanes.
I have not read any stories about IG attacking a fortress filled with SM so I cant really compare.

Condottiere
29-07-2009, 11:03
Consider it this way, the ability of a force to apply it's fire power within a constrained space - in this case, the Marines are able to concentrate more firepower per cubic metre than an IG force, but in a field where there are no artificial constraints, the IG can call in support.

As regards to the Swiss, the French especially employed them as elite mercenaries until the Revolution, and they fought for and against Napoleon.

Lord_Crull
29-07-2009, 11:09
As regards to the Swiss, the French especially employed them as elite mercenaries until the Revolution, and they fought for and against Napoleon.

Bu tthe nation itself did not fight.

Condottiere
29-07-2009, 11:34
Switzerland in the Napoleonic era (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland_in_the_Napoleonic_era)

Lord_Crull
29-07-2009, 12:00
Switzerland in the Napoleonic era (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland_in_the_Napoleonic_era)

Okay, the last 150 years then.

frest
29-07-2009, 14:39
Abnett is the best 40k author by a mile.

The Gaunt's Ghosts books are supposedly before the current time period, and the context of them is a historical retrospective of a particularly successful crusade that had completely unexpected results.

Every single Ghosts book starts with a historical preface that states that the Crusade was on a knife's edge and could have failed at this exact moment, but then "a completely unexpected event happened" and we zoom in to see the Ghosts do something completely unexpected for a Guard regiment and Gaunt being a badass.

Honestly how is it that out-of-line with the tabletop performance of units like IG veterans? They have the ballistic skill of marines and a veteran sergeant has the exact same leadership value a standard marine does, just lacking their special conditioning.

I mean, current rules dictate that a lasgun hit wcan KILL marines easily enough. 1/3 hits will wound, 1/3 wounds will fail their armor saves. If a chaos marine forgoes using his lifetime worth of battlefield experience and daemonic favor, and is instead simply charging into battle, he will lose to an organized force.

The strength of the Space Marines was always in their extremely rapid deployment and surgical precision.

For example.
A predator is a pretty terrible tank when compared to the Leman Russ, but a predator can be rapidly deployed in almost any situation by a thunderhawk. Leman Russes need entire support companies and supply lines to keep them in operation, and take the combined efforts of entire worlds worth of bureaucracy to outfit and transport them.

Lord_Crull
29-07-2009, 14:50
Abnett is the best 40k author by a mile.

The Gaunt's Ghosts books are supposedly before the current time period, and the context of them is a historical retrospective of a particularly successful crusade that had completely unexpected results.

Every single Ghosts book starts with a historical preface that states that the Crusade was on a knife's edge and could have failed at this exact moment, but then "a completely unexpected event happened" and we zoom in to see the Ghosts do something completely unexpected for a Guard regiment and Gaunt being a badass.

Honestly how is it that out-of-line with the tabletop performance of units like IG veterans? They have the ballistic skill of marines and a veteran sergeant has the exact same leadership value a standard marine does, just lacking their special conditioning.

I mean, current rules dictate that a lasgun hit will KILL a marine 1 in 6 times! 1/3 hits will wound, 1/3 wounds will fail their armor saves. If a chaos marine forgoes using his lifetime worth of battlefield experience and daemonic favor, and is instead simply charging into battle, he will lose to an organized force.



Except the tabletop rules have nothing to do with the fluff. Read Brothers of a Snake (also written by Dan Abnett), a single tactical squad kills hundreds of orks and Dark Eldar, something that you could never hope to accomplish on the tabletop. I don't really like the book, but it's an example of the kind of stuff that happens.

Fluffwise marines in the books soak up dozens of lasguns hits like it's nothing. Game mechanics are just that, game mechanics, they are intended for game balance, not fluff accuracy.

Urath
29-07-2009, 14:51
Or the Marines are always hit on the shoulder pad. Occasionally in the chest or legs and almost always loose their helmets.

x-esiv-4c
29-07-2009, 14:51
Not sure about your math there.

Sai-Lauren
29-07-2009, 15:02
No, he has Brostin and Corbec carry autocannons and heavy stubbers in two books I recall.

A heavy stubber is something like a 30 calibre machine gun, whilst autocannon basically range from recoilless rifles up to tank and field guns. (That's why the Battlecannon got introduced in epic 1st edition - Autocannon simply weren't good enough compared to lascannon and missile launchers).

Meanwhile, Necromunda gangers can carry Plasma Cannon and Lascannon, and there was an RT-era Guardsman (actually Guards-woman if I remember the figure correctly - looked a little like Vasquez from Aliens without the CM armour) with an autocannon.

There's all sorts of patterns of weapon - the lighter (in weight, not performance) man portable ones could well require more maintenance or training to use, have lower ammunition capacity, or even be more expensive to procure.



However, it still holds true that in a book written by Abnett with World Eaters as its focus the Khorne boys would've been knee deep in intestines even if they'd been ambushed by a couple of regiments of Kasrkin.

And no other writer has ever done it?

It's called Dramatic Necessity, whether it's the Ghosts fighting off tremendous odds, James Bond finding the self-destruct button in Blofeld's lair, or Poirot stumbling on that vital clue through something someone says, a lot of stories hinge on what are essentially improbable situations.

And compare First and Only to Only In Death - you'll see that Abnett's brought the stories a lot closer to the 40k universe.

And the "What are Guard?" part of the thread.
Guardsmen (and women) are generally well-trained. They are given months of training during the regiments founding, and train on board their transport vessels en route to their warzone to refine their skills and learn anything they need for the particular warzone.
They are generally well equipped, although their equipment is pretty much a trade off between performance and cost.
They are generally well motivated and disciplined, with good morale, and of course, the Commissars and priests to maintain or enforce it.
Their officers are well trained, and won't waste their men on poorly conceived assaults.

There are regiments where the troops are poorly trained, equipped and suffer from dreadful morale and the officers are, to quote Patrick Harper in the Sharpe series (Rifles I think), murdering officers - the cannon fodder. There are also elite regiments, and there are regiments that are great in certain situations, and bad in others (Valhallans on an ice world vs Valhallans on a desert world).

(Harper's theory is that there's two kinds of officers, the killing kind, who'll get you killed accidentally, and the murdering kind, who'll kill you for a reason ;)).

For every Cadia/Mordia, there's a Karnak. But if you went through the administratum lists and found the median guardsman, they'd be as I've described.



On the 'Technology is poorly understood' part How many of you could explain in detail to me how a computer motherboard works on your own?

What about the moniter your using?

The Car you drive, the mobile you use. You have the gist of what it does, but you dont know how it works.

You dont understand the technology, but you do know how to use it.
...

...

Just because people in the Imperium use technology doesnt mean they understand how it works.

Thanks, someone else who believes in "personal tech level", especially with regard to the 40k universe. :D Although I'd change it to "you may know roughly what it does, but you don't know everything and certainly couldn't make one from raw materials."

Everyone reading this, just ask yourself - what's the highest tech item you personally could make if I gave you some basic tools and a pile of wood, metals, composites, plastics and ceramics? (And I'm not expecting any answers to that question).

But for the record, I could just about make a not very good car engine, but I'd almost certainly need serious amounts of help sorting the ignition system out (I'm hopeless with electronics).

Society is technologically advanced, but just because we can use that technology, it doesn't mean we're technologically advanced as well. ;)

frest
29-07-2009, 15:14
shouldn't have even tried math, wasn't properly caffeinated yet

frest
29-07-2009, 15:24
More to the point, Abnett's dialogue and action pacing is far more entertaining to read, hence why I think he's one of their best authors. Even if that offends your personal understanding of the fluff (which obviously differs from person to person and even developer to developer)

Lord_Crull
29-07-2009, 17:14
Or the Marines are always hit on the shoulder pad. Occasionally in the chest or legs and almost always loose their helmets.

What books have you been reading? The Space Wolf series and the Word Bearers books has marines walking through las-fire like it's a light summer rain, one gets hit in the armor joint and it just makes him angry.



It's called Dramatic Necessity, whether it's the Ghosts fighting off tremendous odds, James Bond finding the self-destruct button in Blofeld's lair, or Poirot stumbling on that vital clue through something someone says, a lot of stories hinge on what are essentially improbable situations.



Except them you have stories like Brothers of the Snake, where it get's ridicluous. I can accept that trope as a necessary part of storytelling, but then Abnett lays it on too thick at times.



And compare First and Only to Only In Death - you'll see that Abnett's brought the stories a lot closer to the 40k universe.


Actually I''d say he's brought it further away in my opinion.

borithan
29-07-2009, 17:52
Susposedly in the fluff Marines use large, upgunned versions of bolters, while the guard have a smaller--sized version, this is referenced in the Gaunt books and in Dark Heresy.Not a particular bit of fluff I am terribly keen on myself, as I felt it would be special enough for marines to get as a standard weapon a gun that in most cases is quite rare. Also, various clashes in the fluff on this. Dark Heresy claims that Space Marine bolters have larger rounds than standard ones, and says that standard ones have a .75 inch bolt. The previous Space Marine codex said that Space Marine bolters are .75 calibre. I am more a fan of the idea that Space Marine bolters fire the same bolts but have fancy things normal bolters don't (burst and automatic settings for one).



It it makes sense that the Guard could not lift a mairne bolter effectivly but has a smaller pattren bolterMeh... a Space Marine would probably be bulkier (needs to be sized for a larger operator), but not necessarily much heavier. Also, if you look at the current Guard bolters they are pretty much identical to Space Marine ones.


On the 'Technology is poorly understood' part How many of you could explain in detail to me how a computer motherboard works on your own?The point of 40k is even those that are apparently the experts on technology often have a not terribly great understanding of what the things they tinker with do.



What about the moniter your using?Across the entire screen there are dots made of some phosphorescent material which give off different coloured lights when hit by electrons. In the tube there is a source of electrons (cannot remember what it is actually called) which creates a beam of electrons. Magnets in the monitor can change the direction of the beam, allowing it to be manipulated to scan across the screen, causing the dots it hits to glow. This is done at such a rate that the human brain cannot differentiate it from a solid image.

Can't remember much else from standard grade physics at the moment.


Just because people in the Imperium use technology doesnt mean they understand how it works.The degree to which they can manipulate it in Abnett's books suggests more than a ability to follow instructions they have received to maintain it.


I believe that the majority of Guardsmen will become highly professional soldiers to the level of todays soldiers and possibly beyond.Increasing experience does not continuously lead to better soldiers. Soldiers burn out.



The simple facts that they are given highly effective weapons and armour, that they are taken from the top 10% of the PDFErm... well, there is a little vagueness on that topic. And anyway, even if it is the top 10%, it is 1) the top 10% of a conscript force and 2) just because a unit is generally above average doesn't mean that it doesn't include duff soldiers.


Ask anyone today whether the trench warfare of the early 1900s was effective.With the technology and soldiers at hand? Pretty much yes.



You don't export your police force. There are no Arbites Regiments fighting in the Imperial Guard.The Arbites aren't really the equivalent of the police force. More... FBI or something like that. Normal day to day "police" work is dealt with by whatever means the Planetary Governor has set up.


When you're lifting the top 10% of the standing army, even when they've had no war experience in ages (in which case the sensible thing would be to assign aging commanders/commissars to the planet, who've had all the experience but can't keep fighting), you're going to get a professional fighting force.

[quote]
When you're lifting the top 10% of the standing army, even when they've had no war experience in ages... you're going to get a professional fighting force.Conscripts are conscripts are conscripts. Doesn't matter whether they are the best 10% of units (which will include duffers even if they are the best 10% of units).


Where this differs is if the planet is so pressed for its tithe that it does have to send out conscripts,Unless a planet raises its PDF through getting volunteers (which I haven't heard any example of) all PDF guys are conscripts. Therefore the Guard raised from that planet will be conscripts. All it means is that they were conscripted (drafted). It doesn't say whether they are good or bad soldiers or not.

RCgothic
29-07-2009, 18:09
I'd say actual conscription is fairly rare. Go into the slums of a hive city, bang the recruiting drum and say 'Who wants out of this hellhole?' and see how many volunteers you get.

The Tanith certainly aren't conscripts either.

Dogface
29-07-2009, 18:22
With the technology and soldiers at hand? Pretty much yes.

Not really, it was incredibly wasteful because poor officers were using modern weapons to fight out outdated strategies and tactics. Who uses trench warfare today? Machine guns, artillery, rifles are all still in use but arguably combat today is far more effective, cost efficient, and swift.

Condottiere
29-07-2009, 18:30
Trench warfare happened because technology favoured fire power over mobility and protection. That's why they came up with the tank.

Also, the American Civil War was a fairly good harbinger of things to come, yet few took heed. The Franco-Prussian War showed that the army that could retain mobility, organize itself and concentrate at will will win.

ImperiusDominatus
30-07-2009, 04:57
Unless a planet raises its PDF through getting volunteers (which I haven't heard any example of) all PDF guys are conscripts. Therefore the Guard raised from that planet will be conscripts. All it means is that they were conscripted (drafted). It doesn't say whether they are good or bad soldiers or not.
I've heard plenty of mentions in the fluff that one of the biggest reasons for Guard recruitment is underhivers and other lower class citizens attempting to escape their life. Not to mention I'm pretty sure I've seen a few Imperial recruitment posters before. I've never seen any mention in the fluff that "all PDF guys are conscripts", though



When you're lifting the top 10% of the standing army, even when they've had no war experience in ages (in which case the sensible thing would be to assign aging commanders/commissars to the planet, who've had all the experience but can't keep fighting), you're going to get a professional fighting force.

Conscripts are conscripts are conscripts. Doesn't matter whether they are the best 10% of units (which will include duffers even if they are the best 10% of units).
If being conscripted "doesn't say whether they are good or bad soldiers or not", then I'm really not sure what your point is here.

Being conscripted doesn't really give any indication of skill at all, making it a bit of a moot point... Heck, I might be wrong, but aren't Cadians conscripted?

Condottiere
30-07-2009, 05:41
I think you voulunteer with being born.

RCgothic
30-07-2009, 08:38
So not only are most PDF's not conscripted, but the planets where conscription is in effect (Vostroyan Firstborn, DKoK, Cadia), produce some of the most hardcore IG regiments in the galaxy.

Bloodknight
30-07-2009, 09:00
The main problem with conscripted troops is morale, and I guess that most imperial citizens will be fanaticised enough for that being no big problem anymore.

borithan
30-07-2009, 09:02
Not really, it was incredibly wasteful because poor officers were using modern weapons to fight out outdated strategies and tactics.Initially, and found it to be extremely costly. Trench warfare was the new strategy, not the old one. In 1914 they tried the old methods... and found that with new weapons in large quantities it resulted in a bloodbath and eventual stalemate. Trench warfare was the move away from old strategies, trying to adapt to the new technology. Firepower and mobility favoured the defender at the start of the war, and it was only really when the armies realised that that they started to adapt, and eventually find ways to restore a degree of mobility to the battlefield (Germans with stormtroopers, the British with the continuous limited offensive).



Who uses trench warfare today? Machine guns, artillery, rifles are all still in use but arguably combat today is far more effective, cost efficient, and swift.They didn't have tanks and other armoured vehicles, automatic weapons were difficult for the attacker to move about (toook time for the LMG and submachine gun to become available), aircraft were pretty basic, and artillery tended to be rather difficult to move about quickly.


If being conscripted "doesn't say whether they are good or bad soldiers or not", then I'm really not sure what your point is here."Conscript" seems to be being used as a label for poor soldiers. Also, even if a conscript unit is of good quality there remain certain issues that apply to all conscripts, ie the fact that the soldiers probably didn't choose to be there. Sure, many may be fine being there, for whatever reason, but they still haven't made the choice.

Lord_Crull
30-07-2009, 11:38
Initially, and found it to be extremely costly. Trench warfare was the new strategy, not the old one. In 1914 they tried the old methods... and found that with new weapons in large quantities it resulted in a bloodbath and eventual stalemate. Trench warfare was the move away from old strategies, trying to adapt to the new technology. Firepower and mobility favoured the defender at the start of the war, and it was only really when the armies realised that that they started to adapt, and eventually find ways to restore a degree of mobility to the battlefield (Germans with stormtroopers, the British with the continuous limited offensive).


Yes it was, are you forgetting Petersburg and the Russo-Japanese war so easily? Trench warfare has always existed in some form or another since the late middle ages.

borithan
30-07-2009, 15:19
Yes it was, are you forgetting PetersburgErm... not sure what this battle is, so cannot comment.



and the Russo-Japanese war so easily?Well, the Russo-Japanese wars is another one of these "hinted at what would happen in 1914 but no one quite realised it" things. Yes, similar stuff happened, but it hadn't got the stage where it changed what leaders intended to do on the field.



Trench warfare has always existed in some form or another since the late middle ages.Yes, but largely in very particular circumstances (siege warfare). Trenches being a major feature of standard battles only started with the ACW as far as I am aware, and it was only in the First World War that it basically took over the battlefield entirely.

Condottiere
30-07-2009, 17:03
It was in the ACW that these changes became standardized and then ignored. They couldn't be ignored in WWI because the firepower had improved by leaps and bounds and the scale of the armies deployed stretched from the Swiss border to the English Channel.

Brother Loki
30-07-2009, 17:24
I would imagine the big problem a tank regiment faces when fighting a titan legion is the titans' ability to annihilate them from 10 miles away, far outside the tanks' engagement range.

As a comparison, during WWII whe the German Tiger tank came into service it was commonly expected to lose 4-6 Sherman tanks in an attempt to take on one Tiger, because the tiger could kill a sherman from 2000m, while the shermans needed to get to within 400m and get behind it, to stand a chance of penetrating the armour. (Guess who went to Bovington tank museum a couple of weeks ago).

Condottiere
30-07-2009, 17:40
It's also how myths develop - it seems Ronson lighter was coined after the war ended.

kikkoman
30-07-2009, 17:46
So would the main criticism of Abnett be that, in making his protagonists badass, he winds up making the villains wimpy?

Sorta like "Ninjas are cool because they are badass", so "killing ninjas makes you more badass", and then American Ninja was made.

Solar_Eclipse
31-07-2009, 00:12
I would imagine the big problem a tank regiment faces when fighting a titan legion is the titans' ability to annihilate them from 10 miles away, far outside the tanks' engagement range.


Even things like Earthshakers, bombards, Medusas, Deathstrikes and Shadowswords?

These weapons all outrange the titan weapons and are still quite effective at taking on Titans.



So would the main criticism of Abnett be that, in making his protagonists badass, he winds up making the villains wimpy?

Thats the thing, Abnett usually manages to make his villains just as badass as his heroes, such as the Chaos Echelon leader in Double Eagle, The Baneblade of the Pardus Tank attack, Etc.

They are usually beaten by a mixture of skill, tactics and, of course, Luck.

Lord_Crull
31-07-2009, 00:58
Even things like Earthshakers, bombards, Medusas, Deathstrikes and Shadowswords?

These weapons all outrange the titan weapons and are still quite effective at taking on Titans.



Thats the thing, Abnett usually manages to make his villains just as badass as his heroes, such as the Chaos Echelon leader in Double Eagle, The Baneblade of the Pardus Tank attack, Etc.

They are usually beaten by a mixture of skill, tactics and, of course, Luck.

Then he has wimps, like the Blood Pact in recent novels, and the Baneblade in Sabbat Martyr. Heck,the Blood Pact are always described as being ''tough'' but they only ever kill minor characters and alway get thier asses kicked by the ghosts.

Imperialis_Dominatus
31-07-2009, 01:05
Then he has wimps, like the Blood Pact in recent novels, and the Baneblade in Sabbat Martyr. Heck,the Blood Pact are always described as being ''tough'' but they only ever kill minor characters and alway get thier asses kicked by the ghosts.

I haven't read the latest Ghost novels, but why does something have to kill off major characters to be a threat? The fact that they kill swathes of nameless or just-named-to-be-killed Ghosts is testament enough to their prowess, as the Ghosts as a whole at the point the Blood Pact show up are a battle-hardened, elite force in themselves.

Given, Abnett has taken quite long enough to start letting characters die (I'm only done with the second omnibus of Ghosts), and he didn't kill as many as I thought he would, given that those books are the ones where "you will start to learn to say goodbye," as the intro says, but he has done it, and I think the few we've seen are well-done.

Bet Gaunt's gonna survive till the end though, leading a Hardened Vets squad led by Rawne into battle with Guar himself. Typical Hollywood ending. But then hopefully they'll all die in a tube-charge blast that takes Guar out too. ;)

And the Baneblade's appearance alone in Sabbat Martyr was enough to force a full-scale Imperial retreat. Only the Saint stopped it. If you'll remember, Living Saints are supposed to pull off crap like that.

Solar_Eclipse
31-07-2009, 01:43
I dont get how you can say the Blood Pact are Wimpy.

They fight using Imperial Tactics, rather than a bum rush usually, They usually set up good advances and support.

When they do charge its usually with things like their elite Shock troopers.

This is all while being a Khornate cult.

Condottiere
31-07-2009, 02:56
Isn't the usual term of service in the IG about twenty years? When do the Ghosts reach that?

MajorWesJanson
31-07-2009, 03:34
Even things like Earthshakers, bombards, Medusas, Deathstrikes and Shadowswords?

These weapons all outrange the titan weapons and are still quite effective at taking on Titans.

Depends on the Titan. Vraks saw a Warhound being downed by repeated artillery fire, but actual battle titans seem far more resistant.
Earthshakers have a range of 16 km, while some of the titan weapons like turbolasers can probably match that depending on the horizon, bigger guns can exceed it. Warlords and Emperors can see and shoot further than 16 km, and things like the Apocalypse missile launcher would make excellent counterbattery weapons.
Bombards and Medusas are shorter ranged than the Earthshaker IIRC, and Deathstrikes are fairly rare.

Shadowswords can do a number of a titan if they hit, but they are rather slow to fire and far less maneuverable than most titans. More of an ambush tank than a straight up fighter. The whole reason for scout titans is to deal with threats like shadowswords, artillery and smaller tanks, keeping them occupied and protecting the larger titans. They scout out threats to the rest of the titan group.

Solar_Eclipse
31-07-2009, 04:32
Depends on the Titan. Vraks saw a Warhound being downed by repeated artillery fire, but actual battle titans seem far more resistant.

As usual im using Epic rules to portray this sort of battle, and Artillery can get horrifying against titans, especially Basilisks and Manticores. Deathstrikes hardly need to be mentioned :P.



Earthshakers have a range of 16 km, while some of the titan weapons like turbolasers can probably match that depending on the horizon, bigger guns can exceed it. Warlords and Emperors can see and shoot further than 16 km, and things like the Apocalypse missile launcher would make excellent counterbattery weapons.
Bombards and Medusas are shorter ranged than the Earthshaker IIRC, and Deathstrikes are fairly rare.


A Turbo laser has a range of 45 cm in Epic which is equal to a bombard, and completly outclassed by the 120 cm (potentially 240cm) of the Basilisk and the 150cm (potentially 300cm) of the Manticore.

Deathstrikes have unlimited range.

The Longest range weapon the Imperial Titans in the rulebook have is a volcano cannon, at 90cm.

most of their ranges are around 45cm while even the standard battle cannon has range 75cm.

Titans arnt really there for range.



Shadowswords can do a number of a titan if they hit, but they are rather slow to fire and far less maneuverable than most titans. More of an ambush tank than a straight up fighter. The whole reason for scout titans is to deal with threats like shadowswords, artillery and smaller tanks, keeping them occupied and protecting the larger titans. They scout out threats to the rest of the titan group.

This is true, but with the amount of tank squadrons that were there, any titans that tried to close the distance would simply be annihilated.

madprophet
31-07-2009, 05:20
I like Abnett's stuff. One of the best depictions of the IG I've seen to date is in 'Lone Wolves', the men of the Slovak X seemed like real human beings and their relationship with the Space Wolves made sense.

Gaunt's Ghosts are like the good guys in any war movie, but for all that they do put some of the OTT elements of the 40k universe in some perspective. In Abnett's universe, human beings are still human - they live, love, laugh and like most people in history, have no clue what their government is really up to. That's what I like about them. Gaunt is the archetypal 'Russian Novel' hero, the good man who has to live in the gray moral areas and who still manages to triumph. Pulpy, yes, but I like it anyway.

Firaxin
31-07-2009, 08:37
Isn't the usual term of service in the IG about twenty years? When do the Ghosts reach that?
The Gaunts are in 'for the duration.' They'll fight until either they're all dead or they can rightfully claim to have single-handedly (re)conquered a planet, in which case the Warmaster will award the planet to them and let them settle down there.


Hmm, that might be an interesting topic for a BL book, a regiment wins themselves a planet and settles down, free from war at last, but then are like wtf as they struggle to deal with PTSD/unable to relate to civilians/etcetc.

Askil the Undecided
31-07-2009, 09:00
Hmm, that might be an interesting topic for a BL book, a regiment wins themselves a planet and settles down, free from war at last, but then are like wtf as they struggle to deal with PTSD/unable to relate to civilians/etcetc.

You seem to be labouring under the delusion that the Imperium would leave a potentially traitorous/contaminated newly re-subjugated civilian population in place for a conquest-rights settlement by a IG regiment.

I think a more interesting BL book would be a veteran IG sergeant who musters out on settlement rights joins the initial intake of PDF to protect his new home and young family and then gets drafted into the IG as part of the tithe.

Also I'm sure you'll notice the formidable suits of plot armour worn by all the protagonists of Abnett's books but this may be more due to the need for a novel to be longer than the expositional paragraphs considering the situations Abnett routinely throws his characters into.

Firaxin
31-07-2009, 09:50
You seem to be labouring under the delusion that the Imperium would leave a potentially traitorous/contaminated newly re-subjugated civilian population in place for a conquest-rights settlement by a IG regiment.
Actually, I was laboring under the delusion that a single regiment couldn't recolonize a world by themselves, and that fresh civilians would be quickly flown in to get the pre-existing infrastructure back up and running as soon as possible, oblivious to the hardships that went into winning their new home.

laudarkul
31-07-2009, 10:05
Then he has wimps, like the Blood Pact in recent novels, and the Baneblade in Sabbat Martyr. Heck,the Blood Pact are always described as being ''tough'' but they only ever kill minor characters and alway get thier asses kicked by the ghosts.

But Ghosts are not a line regiment. They are more close to a ST regiment(or even better); they could be catalogued as an elite regiment, while the Blood Pact troops are a little better then a line regiment.
EDIT: As for the horrific losses of that Cadian&IG Tanks vs Titan Legion, I guess that the Titan Legion was also backed up by some Dark Mechanicus Skitarii Regiments/Legions and also some tanks/heavy tanks support groups/ordinatus and so on. And the IG tanks are annihilated so that means that a 1/10 survived and also since they near destroyed the enemy forces that's means that they get the field (so maybe another 1/5 recovered tanks in a couple of days and the rest of them more or less garbage).
A fair price for Guard.

Condottiere
31-07-2009, 10:17
Actually, I was laboring under the delusion that a single regiment couldn't recolonize a world by themselves, and that fresh civilians would be quickly flown in to get the pre-existing infrastructure back up and running as soon as possible, oblivious to the hardships that went into winning their new home.They usually don't, they form the ruling caste.

Lord_Crull
31-07-2009, 10:28
I dont get how you can say the Blood Pact are Wimpy.

They fight using Imperial Tactics, rather than a bum rush usually, They usually set up good advances and support.

When they do charge its usually with things like their elite Shock troopers.

This is all while being a Khornate cult.

But they do bum rush, most of the time, it's not just the shock-troops. Abnett never mentions the difference.


I haven't read the latest Ghost novels, but why does something have to kill off major characters to be a threat? The fact that they kill swathes of nameless or just-named-to-be-killed Ghosts is testament enough to their prowess, as the Ghosts as a whole at the point the Blood Pact show up are a battle-hardened, elite force in themselves.


Killing nameless mooks, a good villian does not make. And they don't even kill that many mooks, if you read the books, the kill ratio difference between the Ghosts and the Pact is immense.

Solar_Eclipse
31-07-2009, 10:50
But they do bum rush, most of the time, it's not just the shock-troops. Abnett never mentions the difference.

Well maybe you could take a look at the Index Hereticus written on the Blood Pact?

Also, you need to consider that the ghosts have a fighting style that almost forces their opponents to charge them to do real damage.



Killing nameless mooks, a good villian does not make. And they don't even kill that many mooks, if you read the books, the kill ratio difference between the Ghosts and the Pact is immense.

How many Nameless mooks does the Joker kill compared to good guys?

He doesnt actually kill that many, and yet he is one of the most archetypal villains in Comic and movie Culture.

Anyway, how many Ghosts walk away from the Fortress in 'Only in death'? 2000? Something like that?

Thats what? 8 platoons.

Lord_Crull
31-07-2009, 11:45
Well maybe you could take a look at the Index Hereticus written on the Blood Pact?



I did, the death brigades are Stormtrooper-equivlents, not suicide troops.

The point is they just die, even when they where first introduced.




Also, you need to consider that the ghosts have a fighting style that almost forces their opponents to charge them to do real damage.


How? Why can't the Blood pact just bombard then with morters? What is it abotu the Ghosts that forces people to attack them in close combat? They defend places and don't attack before.



How many Nameless mooks does the Joker kill compared to good guys?

He doesnt actually kill that many, and yet he is one of the most archetypal villains in Comic and movie Culture.


That's a poor example, nobody stays dead in the comics, except Uncle Ben.



Anyway, how many Ghosts walk away from the Fortress in 'Only in death'? 2000? Something like that?

Thats what? 8 platoons.

Eight, 50 man platoons is not 2000 men. And I don't see any more characters dying, even Gaunt survives.

borithan
31-07-2009, 12:00
Anyway, how many Ghosts walk away from the Fortress in 'Only in death'? 2000? Something like that?Didn't they only start of with 3000 in the first place (leaving Tanith)? Having only lost a 1/3 of their strength over the space of at least several months of quite heavy fighting is quite good indeed. While divisions in WW2 apparently didn't have that high casualty rates, when you looked at the actual combat companies (so ignoring all the support staff etc, which Imperial Guard units seem largely not consider part of combat regiments as such) they could suffer 50%+ casualties in a single battle.



Thats what? 8 platoons.Erm... no 40, if we go with the roughly 50 man platoons that the Imperial Guard seem to have. It is about 6 or 7 companies (presuming 6 platoons to a company, as suggested by the Imperial Guard Codex and other sources).

Solar_Eclipse
31-07-2009, 14:31
I did, the death brigades are Stormtrooper-equivlents, not suicide troops.

The point is they just die, even when they where first introduced.


That depends on what you mean by Stormtrooper. If you mean Imperial Guard stormtroopers, then no the Death Brigades are not.

They are more like the actual stormtroopers, Shock troopers.


How? Why can't the Blood pact just bombard then with morters? What is it abotu the Ghosts that forces people to attack them in close combat? They defend places and don't attack before.

because they need to know where the ghosts are clearly to do that.

Thats what a Camo Cloak is for.


That's a poor example, nobody stays dead in the comics, except Uncle Ben.

Its not a poor example, its perfectly apt.

Just accept something for once, Christ...


Eight, 50 man platoons is not 2000 men. And I don't see any more characters dying, even Gaunt survives.

Then you better not read the next books when they come out.

Sorry, i was thinking Companies, not platoons. 250x8= 2000



Didn't they only start of with 3000 in the first place (leaving Tanith)? Having only lost a 1/3 of their strength over the space of at least several months of quite heavy fighting is quite good indeed. While divisions in WW2 apparently didn't have that high casualty rates, when you looked at the actual combat companies (so ignoring all the support staff etc, which Imperial Guard units seem largely not consider part of combat regiments as such) they could suffer 50%+ casualties in a single battle.


Several Months?
actually the book says 13 days.

1000 men in 13 days, not all of them fighting, either. They hadnt even arrived at the objective until Day 6, and i dont think they see the enemy until day 8.

So 1/3 of your forces in 5 days including your commanding officer and Commissar?

That is a pretty horrific figure, all told. Especially since they were defending a fortified position.

narrativium
31-07-2009, 14:43
Didn't they only start of with 3000 in the first place (leaving Tanith)? Having only lost a 1/3 of their strength over the space of at least several months of quite heavy fighting is quite good indeed. 3500 escaped Tanith, though by Necropolis they've definitely below 2000. They have numbers-bumps at the end of Necropolis and before His Last Command.

Lord_Crull
31-07-2009, 14:52
That depends on what you mean by Stormtrooper. If you mean Imperial Guard stormtroopers, then no the Death Brigades are not.

They are more like the actual stormtroopers, Shock troopers.


Yes they where, go read it again, the rules they give and the description is the equal to the Guard stormtroopers.


Certain elite or veteran sections of the Pact coterie form the so-called 'Death Brigades", representing the finest and most ruthless storm squads in the Blood Pact. Though comparatively few in number, the Death Brigades are often encountered at the spearhead of assaults, as the private company of senior Chaos leaders, or deployed on specialist missions, and are justly the most dreaded of all Blood Pact units.

I don't know about you, but that sounds like Guard Stormtroopers to me.



because they need to know where the ghosts are clearly to do that.

Thats what a Camo Cloak is for.


That's when they are out in the open, what about all those times when they defend? And What about when the Pact detects the Ghosts? do they pin them down and call in for mortars? No. They charge in.



Its not a poor example, its perfectly apt.

Just accept something for once, Christ...


No it's not apt at all, you are comparing a setting that is full of war and death to a setting where the writers themselves acknowledge the Comic book Death trope. There is no comparison at all. We all know the Joker is never going to kill Batman. In 40k character only come back to life as Dreadnoughts or Wraithlords, in the comics everyone has died at least twice and has been ressurected.

If you want a good villian look at the Lannisters from ''Song of Ice and Fire'' they kill of both Major and minor characters in each book. Or Abnett's other novels where Eisenhorn loses several of his Acolytes over the course of three books.

Philip S
31-07-2009, 16:40
Compare the exploits of the Pardus tank regiment or the Tanks under General Grizmund (Gaunts Ghosts Novel) to the exploits of the Cadian 423rd regiment (Guard Codex). The Pardus regiment are viewed as highly competent tank commanders who use realistic armoured tactics to maximise their armoured advantage, and General Grizmund has a highly manouvrable strategy which relies on veteran skill and effective use of their technology (Auspices).

Compare these to exploits from the codex where the Cadian (a VERY elite regiment, Cadians being the best of the best, Led by Commander Pask) 423rd Tank regiment lose 8000 tank companies (800,000 Leman Russes) and 35 Super heavy detachments (from 35-105 Super Heavy vehicles) attacking a Titan Legion.

The point of this is to ask you, do you believe the Dan Abnett is giving a fair view on how the Imperial Guard fights? Or is he making them too effective?.
A bit of both.

Titans are awesome, and Gaunt is a fluky git.

Perhaps the chaos god watch over him?

Philip

aim
01-08-2009, 03:52
The reason Abnett makes whatever hes writing about survive the encounters is common sense, a book wouldnt be very intresting if it started out. 'The imperial guard couragiously charged the chaos marines... and got slaughtered because the chaos marines were well harder. the end.'

Mr Zoat
01-08-2009, 05:33
Given that nearly all of the Imperial Guard models I've ever seen were male, I've been wondering about that colonisation thing.

And Uncle Ben has come back... what, three or four times in various ways?

Condottiere
01-08-2009, 06:15
As mentioned, they become the rulers - you get to select the wenches you want from the local populace.

Solar_Eclipse
01-08-2009, 06:38
The reason Abnett makes whatever hes writing about survive the encounters is common sense, a book wouldnt be very intresting if it started out. 'The imperial guard couragiously charged the chaos marines... and got slaughtered because the chaos marines were well harder. the end.'

This scenario is kind of the difference.

GW writing: Waves of Guardsmen charge in, getting slaughtered until they finally push the marines over and kill them with bayonets.
Abnett like writing: Guardsmen See Chaos Marines, sit in cover and order an Artillery Strike or 2.

Thats how you kill Marines, hit them with something which their armour doesnt help them against.

Clockwork-Knight
01-08-2009, 06:52
The guardsmen will die anyway, even when they see that Chaos Marine, because by the time they see him, he's close enough that any artillery strike will also hit the guardsmen whining and sobing in their trenches.
Also, Abnett does reduce the intelligence of the antagonists. Chaos Space Marines without any cover standing still in the open to get shot down by simple guardsmen (even khornate berserkers still instinctively follow their superior astartes training), or not wearing any helmet, not even without at least some kind of force field, so that a bunch of indigenes can plaster their uncovered heads with their needlethrowers.
And of course, the already-mentioned super plot protection of the Tanith that Abnett has admitted to having given them.
Now, I wonder if Abnett is going to decimate that bunch of kilt-wearing catachan-wannabes so long in the following battles that there isn't an original Tanith around anymore.

Solar_Eclipse
01-08-2009, 07:07
The guardsmen will die anyway, even when they see that Chaos Marine, because by the time they see him, he's close enough that any artillery strike will also hit the guardsmen whining and sobing in their trenches.

Guardsmen spend their lives fighting these enemies, they are human, true. But they arent cowards.

Also Artillery can be quite accurate, you should check it out.



Also, Abnett does reduce the intelligence of the antagonists. Chaos Space Marines without any cover standing still in the open to get shot down by simple guardsmen (even khornate berserkers still instinctively follow their superior astartes training), or not wearing any helmet, not even without at least some kind of force field, so that a bunch of indigenes can plaster their uncovered heads with their needlethrowers.

Im sorry, but i dont think this is a purely Abnett thing, marines regularly dont wear helmets without force fields, etc.

Also Khorne Beserkers apparently dont instinctively take cover according to GW, even if its stupid.

The Chaos Space Marines that the Ghosts met were arrogant, they were on one of their own worlds and they were facing guardsmen. They didnt even expect a fight.



And of course, the already-mentioned super plot protection of the Tanith that Abnett has admitted to having given them.
Now, I wonder if Abnett is going to decimate that bunch of kilt-wearing catachan-wannabes so long in the following battles that there isn't an original Tanith around anymore.

Kilt wearing? Huh?

Anyway, i feel that this would be something which seems to be happening already.

How many of the Major Characters are tanith?

Rawne, Dorden, Larkin, Varl, Mkoll...its hard to really think of many more.

How many characters are not?

Ludd, Hark, Zweil, Daur, maggs, ezra, dalin, Tona, curth, Kolea, Soric.. its so much easier to remember the non Tanith now since there are more of them.

Clockwork-Knight
01-08-2009, 07:23
Guardsmen spend their lives fighting these enemies, they are human, true. But they arent cowards.No. Chaos Space Marines aren't that common. The most common servants of Chaos which the Imperial Guard is fighting are lowly crazed cultists and rebells who think painting eight-sided stars on their guns will help them before the wrath of the Imperium. The Lost and the Damned.
Chaos Space Marines are as common as Chaos Daemon. Rather not.

Also Artillery can be quite accurate, you should check it out.Not that of the Imperial Guard, and surely not when the Chaos Space Marine would be so near to a guardsman. Not to mention that the Chaos Marine has heightened reflexes, strenght, and speed enhanced furthermore by their arcane armor.


Im sorry, but i dont think this is a purely Abnett thing, marines regularly dont wear helmets without force fields, etc. On the tabletop, the Marines who don't wear helmets are only imagery, but in truth, they're all wearing the same. Those who specifically don't wear helmets are special characters with crux and/or blessings that gives them the same protection.
In the novels written by Black Library, when Marines don't wear helmets, it's because it just got hit so many times that it's broken, and only then do they take it down, or they're crazy Space Wolves, who claim that their noses are better than the sensors built in their helmets (might be true, is still stupid, because the helmet also displays tactical data).


Also Khorne Beserkers apparently dont instinctively take cover according to GW, even if its stupid.Khorne Berserkers still attack you in ruins with tons of cover. They're not standing in open fields waiting with their chainaxes and twiddling their oversized gauntlet-finger to get ripped by artillery several dozen miles behind the front.

The Chaos Space Marines that the Ghosts met were arrogant, they were on one of their own worlds and they were facing guardsmen. They didnt even expect a fight.Thank you. Dumb Chaos Space Marines. Any enemy actually fighting the Ghosts suddenly becomes dumber.
Perhaps that's one of their hidden psionic gestalt-power.


Kilt wearing? Huh?The Tanith Ghosts are space-scotts. With Mk instead of Mc. Even with bagpipes. :D

Solar_Eclipse
01-08-2009, 07:35
No. Chaos Space Marines aren't that common. The most common servants of Chaos which the Imperial Guard is fighting are lowly crazed cultists and rebells who think painting eight-sided stars on their guns will help them before the wrath of the Imperium. The Lost and the Damned.
Chaos Space Marines are as common as Chaos Daemon. Rather not.

Tyranids are, Chaos Cultists are, Orks are, Heretics are.

The Imperial Guard makes its Careers fighting some incredibly scary enemies.

Im sorry, but unless theres some magic involved, or ambush, or outnumber etc, Guardsmen wont just flee from Chaos Marines. They need a reason.



Not that of the Imperial Guard, and surely not when the Chaos Space Marine would be so near to a guardsman. Not to mention that the Chaos Marine has heightened reflexes, strenght, and speed enhanced furthermore by their arcane armor.

Why is Imperial Guard Artillery not accurate?

40k doesnt do rules for artillery well, check out Epic for them.


On the tabletop, the Marines who don't wear helmets are only imagery, but in truth, they're all wearing the same. Those who specifically don't wear helmets are special characters with crux and/or blessings that gives them the same protection.

I think you will find that difficult to back up.

Could i please have a source?


Khorne Berserkers still attack you in ruins with tons of cover. They're not standing in open fields waiting with their chainaxes and twiddling their oversized gauntlet-finger to get ripped by artillery several dozen miles behind the front.

Not according to GW, it seems.

Again, could i have a source?


Thank you. Dumb Chaos Space Marines. Any enemy actually fighting the Ghosts suddenly becomes dumber.
Perhaps that's one of their hidden psionic gestalt-power.

A discussion is a give and take of ideas. Please actually discuss rather than act out.

Chaos Space Marines are not known for being paragons of virtue, especially not those who are in traitor general.



The Tanith Ghosts are space-scotts. With Mk instead of Mc. Even with bagpipes.

That is an oversimplification and you know it.

Clockwork-Knight
01-08-2009, 08:03
Tyranids are, Chaos Cultists are, Orks are, Heretics are.Tyranids aren't common. They've just arrived since 250-300 years, and have begun incredibly fast and disastrous attacks on a few hundred worlds. Notice that according to Imperial Armory Vol. 6 "The Siege of Vraks Part II", being sent to the Tyranid warfront is akin to suicide missions. Orks can be incredibly dangerous, depending if it's only a small warband rampaging around, or a Waaagh shattering several systems to smoldering ruins, and needing the concentrated effort of all forces of the Imperium to stop it. Cultists and heretics are in most cases the same, but there's also normal rebels who don't ally with Chaos, just not willing to pay their tithes to the Imperium.


The Imperial Guard makes its Careers fighting some incredibly scary enemies. Some of them are only fought once in a life-time, if at all, and scarcely survived. Tyranids, Chaos Space Marines, Daemons, and C'tan belong to that category.

Im sorry, but unless theres some magic involved, or ambush, or outnumber etc, Guardsmen wont just flee from Chaos Marines. They need a reason.They fall in panic. They hear the stories of how allpowerful the Angels of Death are, and then realize that that guy in front is an Angel of Death, turned really evil and nasty, spouting obscenities against the God-Emperor.
And there's a reason Commisars are needed to maintain discipline in the lower ranks.
Heck, even the death corps. of Krieg fall in panic and scatter before Traitor Marines, and these are guys who go charge an almost impenetrable fortress in Verdun-style.


Why is Imperial Guard Artillery not accurate?

40k doesnt do rules for artillery well, check out Epic for them.In both cases, it's only an abstraction. Imperial Guard artillery is all about plastering the enemy with several thousand tons of ammo.


I think you will find that difficult to back up.

Could i please have a source?Sure. Read Nightbringer, Codex Space Marine (4th edition, 5th edition), Codex Black Templar, the Horus Heresy books, the Ragnar Greymane-stories, and other.


Not according to GW, it seems.

Again, could i have a source?Yes, sure, Codex Chaos Space Marines (3rd edition 1st book, 3.5 edition, and 4th edition).

A discussion is a give and take of ideas. Please actually discuss rather than act out.You confirmed the lowered intelligence of the antagonists, as I critisized. There is nothing more to say about this point, unless you want to drag it out.

Chaos Space Marines are not known for being paragons of virtue, especially not those who are in traitor general.Any Chaos Space Marine is a several hundred year old veteran of battle who has seen more battles than a normal human will ever hear about. No matter if it's an original Traitor from the old Legions, or one of those former loyalist chapters. They all are able to put out meticulous plans. Even Khornate followers. If they weren't, the Khornate Marines would long since then have ceased to be a threat. Also, even the Blood Pact is known for thinking through, and their patron god is Khorne.
And appearently, they're elite warriors who make Imperial Guardsmen crap in their pants because they're not crazily throwing themselves against the Imperium with kitchen knives and bare bodies.

That is an oversimplification and you know it.And yet, every part is true. It's not my fault they're so simple to categorize. That holds true for all regiments in the Imperial Guard. The Imperial Guard-codex 1st version had all kind of funky regiments, ranging from Praetorians, to some kind of vietcong, aztec eagle-warrior, samurai-dudes, and half-naked barbarians trusting their warpaint to protect them from enemy fire (it doesn't help them).

Solar_Eclipse
01-08-2009, 09:27
Tyranids aren't common. They've just arrived since 250-300 years, and have begun incredibly fast and disastrous attacks on a few hundred worlds. Notice that according to Imperial Armory Vol. 6 "The Siege of Vraks Part II", being sent to the Tyranid warfront is akin to suicide missions. Orks can be incredibly dangerous, depending if it's only a small warband rampaging around, or a Waaagh shattering several systems to smoldering ruins, and needing the concentrated effort of all forces of the Imperium to stop it. Cultists and heretics are in most cases the same, but there's also normal rebels who don't ally with Chaos, just not willing to pay their tithes to the Imperium.



Some of them are only fought once in a life-time, if at all, and scarcely survived. Tyranids, Chaos Space Marines, Daemons, and C'tan belong to that category.


They fall in panic. They hear the stories of how allpowerful the Angels of Death are, and then realize that that guy in front is an Angel of Death, turned really evil and nasty, spouting obscenities against the God-Emperor.
And there's a reason Commisars are needed to maintain discipline in the lower ranks.
Heck, even the death corps. of Krieg fall in panic and scatter before Traitor Marines, and these are guys who go charge an almost impenetrable fortress in Verdun-style.

If all of those enemies are so rare...what the hell is the Imperial Guard fighting all the time?

Also, the 'One Battle' arguement just doesnt work. Imperial Guardsmen are either in war or are being moved to the next war.



In both cases, it's only an abstraction. Imperial Guard artillery is all about plastering the enemy with several thousand tons of ammo.

Which will kill basic marines, unless they are terminators (although a large amount of Imperial Artillery will destroy them anyway, Bombards, etc)

It may be an abstraction, but its also a reality. If Marines get hit by concentrated artillery, its all over. Real Guard would simply hold Chaos Marines in place while a strike of some kind is ordered, aircraft, artillery, or even Armoured or Heavy weapon support.

They wont break so easily, because as you said, they have Commissars with them.


Sure. Read Nightbringer, Codex Space Marine (4th edition, 5th edition), Codex Black Templar, the Horus Heresy books, the Ragnar Greymane-stories, and other.



Yes, sure, Codex Chaos Space Marines (3rd edition 1st book, 3.5 edition, and 4th edition).

A source is a quote or paraphrase, not just name dropping.



Any Chaos Space Marine is a several hundred year old veteran of battle who has seen more battles than a normal human will ever hear about

This isnt true, just like the arguement you made before that the guardsmen might be in his first battle. Not all Chaos Marines are thousands of years old. Sure they will have seen hundreds of battles, but they arent all heresy veterans.


No matter if it's an original Traitor from the old Legions, or one of those former loyalist chapters. They all are able to put out meticulous plans. Even Khornate followers. If they weren't, the Khornate Marines would long since then have ceased to be a threat. Also, even the Blood Pact is known for thinking through, and their patron god is Khorne.

This is the arguement i make about Khornate warriors, but apparently it contradicts GW Canon, Khornate marines do NOT think things through, they are too mindless.

Sure, it cant be a reality, but thats how the Canon works.

If we used common sense rather than Canon, Guard would be elite as i say since there is no way the Imperium can keep up the attrition rates they talk about in the Canon.



And yet, every part is true. It's not my fault they're so simple to categorize. That holds true for all regiments in the Imperial Guard. The Imperial Guard-codex 1st version had all kind of funky regiments, ranging from Praetorians, to some kind of vietcong, aztec eagle-warrior, samurai-dudes, and half-naked barbarians trusting their warpaint to protect them from enemy fire (it doesn't help them).

The Tanith have:

Names
Spirit belief

In common with Scotts.

That is it.

What are you arguing? That Canon or Common sense should prevail?

If its Canon, then your arguments dont work.

If its common sense, then you should be agreeing with me.

or are you arguing against me specifically, rather than my arguments?

If so then i think you shouldnt post till you calm down.

Lord_Crull
01-08-2009, 11:56
If all of those enemies are so rare...what the hell is the Imperial Guard fighting all the time?


They don't, that's the tabletop and Black Library, which focuses mostly on extrodinary circumstances. Mostly the Guard would have the greatest chance of fighting human traitors and orks, the ones on the Eastren fringe would have a pretty good chance of fighting Tyranids and Tau, while fluffwise Necrons and chaos marines appear very, very rarely in large forces.



I think you will find that difficult to back up.

Could i please have a source?


Lord of the Night, Storm of Iron, Dead Sky Black Sun, the Word Bearers books. Helmets are worn most of the time and only removed because of battle damage.



If
A source is a quote or paraphrase, not just name dropping.


Let the Blood Flow, Page 49, 4th edition Chaos codex. A group of Berzerkers take cover, think strategically and calcuate the firing time between the Guard reloading.



Chaos Space Marines are not known for being paragons of virtue, especially not those who are in traitor general.


Zho Sahal, Honsou, and Marduk where all portrayed as quite intellegent and cunning, and showed patience. Thousand Sons, naturally, would be patient as well.



This is the arguement i make about Khornate warriors, but apparently it contradicts GW Canon, Khornate marines do NOT think things through, they are too mindless.

Sure, it cant be a reality, but thats how the Canon works.


Actually, we have the example of your own Blood pact, plus the one above. In early fluff Khorne was not a mindless god of blood, but a god of war in all forms, including guns and tactics.

This has been carried over somewhat to the daemons codex where it notes that Some Bloodthirsters are excelllent tacticians.



If we used common sense rather than Canon, Guard would be elite as i say since there is no way the Imperium can keep up the attrition rates they talk about in the Canon.


Yes they can, with ease. The problem with Black Library authors, is that they have no sense of scale. When a single hive world has 154 billion people tand the Imperium has 3,000 of those worlds but a million more, it's gets very, very easy to replace losses.

What you are talking about is Abnett's own interptretation of the Guard.



This isnt true, just like the arguement you made before that the guardsmen might be in his first battle. Not all Chaos Marines are thousands of years old. Sure they will have seen hundreds of battles, but they arent all heresy veterans.


Actually they all would have seen hundreds of battles, the Heresy era ones are the guys who have seen thousands of battles. Even freshly turned loyalist renagades on average have more expeirance than most IG veterans.



Which will kill basic marines, unless they are terminators (although a large amount of Imperial Artillery will destroy them anyway, Bombards, etc)

It may be an abstraction, but its also a reality. If Marines get hit by concentrated artillery, its all over. Real Guard would simply hold Chaos Marines in place while a strike of some kind is ordered, aircraft, artillery, or even Armoured or Heavy weapon support.

They wont break so easily, because as you said, they have Commissars with them.




Why is Imperial Guard Artillery not accurate?

40k doesnt do rules for artillery well, check out Epic for them.




You do realize that Chaos marines have artililry and tanks of thier own and have plenty of infiltration troops amoung a vast vareity of allies and daemons to call upon? Fluffwise they have plenty of options for removing artiliiry and responding.



Im sorry, but unless theres some magic involved, or ambush, or outnumber etc, Guardsmen wont just flee from Chaos Marines. They need a reason.


Using your own oft-quoted Traitor General, Gaunt notes that entire brigades have run away from Chaos marines in the past. It's right when eh encounters them.

laudarkul
01-08-2009, 17:47
Actually they all would have seen hundreds of battles, the Heresy era ones are the guys who have seen thousands of battles. Even freshly turned loyalist renagades on average have more expeirance than most IG veterans.

So what?...That means that they are not allowed to suffer looses inflicted to them by those IG veterans? Frankly the problem is that at the number of IG troops, only a few are elite which is not quite realistic.
And usually (at least in most battles) the CSM are not even a squad; there are couple of them.

kikkoman
01-08-2009, 20:10
So do Abnett's other books have these complaints?

in his Malus Darkblade books, does Malus fight dumbed down enemies?

in his Horus Heresy books, are the loser marines dumbed down?

actually, on his Space Marine vs Space Marine books, is there any difference between how a superhuman fights his equal, vs a human fighting a daemonc god-warrior ?

bp.
01-08-2009, 21:51
Lord Crull - I have to agree with everything you have said. Your points are vaild and everything you have stated is sound.

Solar_Eclipse - You need to work on your arguments. :p

Lord_Crull
01-08-2009, 23:16
So what?...That means that they are not allowed to suffer looses inflicted to them by those IG veterans? Frankly the problem is that at the number of IG troops, only a few are elite which is not quite realistic.


I never said that, obviously the Chaos marines do not win all the time and they take casulties. But they are no pushovers.



And usually (at least in most battles) the CSM are not even a squad; there are couple of them.

Yes, most of the time. But full Chaos marine warbands are susposed to be incredibly terrifying and effective.

Askil the Undecided
02-08-2009, 00:00
I can't beleive that peolpe intelligent enough to spell "obviously" (that is people of above severely limited intelligence) have managed to base a discussion on the reality the survival of the protagonists of a novel series set in an entirely fictional universe.

Yes the enemies are less threatening than they should be, yes they die too quickly and yes the Ghosts would be boned in "true" (close to fluff) writing but do you want to know why that is ignored?

Dynamism of media. If things took as long as they should and were as difficult as they should be it would simply take too long to develop a plot. ie a fourty page detailed shoot out with a few lackeys detailing exactly why no ghost major characters died would cause the narrative to lose momentum and wouldn't be the best way to lead up to a book's ultimate climax however a quick mention of a tube charge and concentrated lasgun fire keeps things short and sweet.

Let's just face it we all knew the Ghosts were always going to survive everything the 41st millenium can throw at them until BL stopped letting Abnett write more books, that's just how BL publishing works with profitable series. if you need proof just look at Gotrek & Felix.

Lord_Crull
02-08-2009, 00:04
I can't beleive that peolpe intelligent enough to spell "obviously" (that is people of above severely limited intelligence) have managed to base a discussion on the reality the survival of the protagonists of a novel series set in an entirely fictional universe.


How amusing, personal attacks when someone shares a different opinion. Notice that I am not insulting anyone before you came in,, so it's completely unwarrented.

Plus I cannot be bothered to fix every single spelling mistake. I simply don't have the time.

Marshal2Crusaders
02-08-2009, 01:13
It wasn't a personal attack but a commentary on the validity if basing arguments about a stories main characters to do extrodinary things. It's a novel, that's what happens. It's like getting mad at a detective for solving a hard case or a CIA agents from saving the world in a Tom Clancy novel.

Lord_Crull
02-08-2009, 01:19
It wasn't a personal attack but a commentary on the validity if basing arguments about a stories main characters to do extrodinary things. It's a novel, that's what happens. It's like getting mad at a detective for solving a hard case or a CIA agents from saving the world in a Tom Clancy novel.

I see, I misinterpreted what he said.

But that's not the point. Other authors can make their heroes win in a realistic manner.

Marshal2Crusaders
02-08-2009, 01:50
True, it is plot armor and not realism.

Solar_Eclipse
02-08-2009, 02:14
Ive been avoiding posting in this thread because of twofold reasons.

1. Many people do raise valid arguments
2. I find discussing with certain people to simply be an annoyance rather than a discussion.

For those reasons i am going to close this thread.

Solar_Eclipse
02-08-2009, 02:14
Thread Closed