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Mandragola
29-07-2009, 12:48
Hello

This is the latest incarnation of my vampire list. It's built around a core of GGs with the great wep vamp and BSB in, supported by the skellies, while the blood knights and varghulf roam around. The lord sits in a bunker behind the GGs, casting spells as appropriate.

I've got a project log, in its early stages, here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211884).

Vampire Lord 450
- Magic Level
- Master of the Black Arts
- Forbidden Lore
- Lord of the Dead
- Helm of Command
- Skull Staff

Vampire 185
- Dark Acolyte
- Avatar of Death (great weapon)
- Flayed Hauberk
- Talisman of Lycni

Vampire 165
- Dread Knight
- Blood Drinker

Wight King 100
Battle Standard

10 Skeletons 100
- Champion
- Musician
- Standard

10 Skeletons 100
- Champion
- Musician
- Standard

14 Skeletons 128
- Champion
- Standard

16 Grave Guard 267
- Seneschal
- Musician
- Standard
- Banner of the Barrows

5 Blood Knights 330
- Standard
- Royal Standard of Strigoi

Varghulf 175

Kill-Freedom
29-07-2009, 13:03
Good list, kinda the same as my own these days

Youve actaully ever used blood knights???

I FInd that there a 300 plus point, sacrifical unit.... in all the games ive used them in (over 30) they have only been good in 2..... other then that a complete waste of points.... i find the even though the black knights arent as good in combat, they are a much better unit, there far cheaper, and therefore getting more, making them less fragile, a strong vampire to lead them and they should be just as affective then a unit of blood knights

Mandragola
29-07-2009, 13:40
Weeell, they are more like a 495 point sacrificial unit, thanks to the added vamp. I'm sure nothing could possibly go wrong.

Seriously though, I haven't used them yet. I'm still putting the army together at the moment so feedback from experienced players is much appreciated.

On paper at least, the comparison between black and blood knights doesn't seem that straightforward. The blood knights can be sent at the front of an enemy unit and smash it, which the black knights generally cannot. The blood knights still look like very effective guys, thanks to their strength and toughness, killing blow etc, but I find I prefer the idea of GGs.

I'm hoping that my magic offense and defence will be strong enough to protect the knights to an extent, and that the varghulf will take some of the pressure off. Dunno really.

Kill-Freedom
30-07-2009, 12:50
Weeell, they are more like a 495 point sacrificial unit, thanks to the added vamp. I'm sure nothing could possibly go wrong.

Seriously though, I haven't used them yet. I'm still putting the army together at the moment so feedback from experienced players is much appreciated.

On paper at least, the comparison between black and blood knights doesn't seem that straightforward. The blood knights can be sent at the front of an enemy unit and smash it, which the black knights generally cannot. The blood knights still look like very effective guys, thanks to their strength and toughness, killing blow etc, but I find I prefer the idea of GGs.

I'm hoping that my magic offense and defence will be strong enough to protect the knights to an extent, and that the varghulf will take some of the pressure off. Dunno really.

Blood knights are great, IF they get into combat, how ever they are usaully the 1st unit majority of enemies try to kill...

Black knights come in far cheaper, and dont hit as hard, but what they lack in hitting power, they make up for in being able to survive, as your able to take more of them, and with a vampire to lead them and the banner that doubles your unit strenght, if use correctly can, be far more effective, then a unit of super killy blood knights

It all comes down to the player, try all the units, you will work out how good they are, or arent ^^

Mandragola
01-08-2009, 02:45
To be honest I really can see the point in the black knights, perhaps as well as the blood knights. It would be really useful to have a unit that I could send through difficult terrain to weed out skirmishers and things like that. I suppose the Varghulf might be able to do a decent job of that kind of thing as well though.

As you say, it's all stuff to experiment with. The blood knights are the big question.

Gokamok
01-08-2009, 11:50
My comments in red

Vampire Lord 450
- Magic Level
- Master of the Black Arts
- Forbidden Lore
- Lord of the Dead
- Helm of Command
- Skull Staff

Cookie-cutter Lord, works well as a magical powerhouse.

Vampire 185
- Dark Acolyte
- Avatar of Death (great weapon)
- Flayed Hauberk
- Talisman of Lycni

A nice variation of the Lycni Vampire. I usually go for a different build, but I like the option of S7 hits with 18" charge range.

Vampire 165
- Dread Knight
- Blood Drinker

The Blood Knights are nigh unstoppable when paired with this guy, but I'd probably go for a different approach as mentioned later.

Wight King 100
Battle Standard

I often put some protective items on a WK BSB. Gem of Blood + Cursed Book makes him virtually unkillable in a challenge.

10 Skeletons 100
- Champion
- Musician
- Standard

10 Skeletons 100
- Champion
- Musician
- Standard

14 Skeletons 128
- Champion
- Standard

Try to find the 4 points for a musician on the last unit; it's ALWAYS the unit that doesn't have a musician that ends up drawing combat! I'm also slightly worried that your units might be a tad too small, and I'd definitely recommend getting magic banners on the 2 non-bunker units as well.

16 Grave Guard 267
- Seneschal
- Musician
- Standard
- Banner of the Barrows

I'd up the unit size slightly. Either 20 with HWS or 18 with GW. Since your Lord has Skull Staff and Forbidden Lore, you should be able to guarantee Vanhel's almost every time, so I think GWs would be the better choice.

5 Blood Knights 330
- Standard
- Royal Standard of Strigoi

I generally think that 500ish points (including the Vampire) in a single frenzied unit is too much, especially since you don't have any bats/wolves to screen and support them.

Varghulf 175

You NEVER go wrong with a Varghulf. Probably the best available rare choice for all comers lists.

My suggestions:
1) Replace the Blood Knights with a unit of 6 Black Knights with barding, full command and Royal Standard of Strigos. They come in at 243 points.

2) Mount the BSB on a barded steed and stick him with the Black Knights. You now have a unit with 14" ethereal charge, +2 CR and 9 rerollable S6 Killing Blow attacks on the charge. These guys will break almost anything on the charge, and they still manage decently against ranked infantry in subsequent rounds due to their static CR and taking 1 wound less from crumbling due to BSB.

3) Get a War Banner and Banner of the Dead Legion for your Skeletons.

4) Replace Blood Drinker with Sword of Might/Battle, since he'll likely be stuck with some Skeletons.

5) Make the Grave Guard 18 strong and give them Great Weapons.

This should be completely points neutral, and I think it makes for a slightly stronger list than your current one.

Mandragola
02-08-2009, 01:04
Thanks for a very detailed reply. That's a lot of good suggestions.

I'm not sure I really like the way the army would look if I made the changes you suggest. Taking the bsb out of the GGs weakens them, and the black knights, though they would be good, wouldn't be as good as the blood knights.

It has left me thinking though. My skelly units don't really have any specific job to do, and aren't likely to win many fights even at full strength, which kind of sucks. The blood knights are liable to get lured off into silly situations. I think I'm probably trying to fit too much into the army and consequently ending up with weak stuff. That's a problem.

I'll have to take something out to put something in. Right now I'm thinking about dropping the varghulf and getting 4 fel bats, then spending the remaining points on some dogs, a musician and a toy for the wight king (not sure between sword, cursed armour or gem of blood).

Of course, losing the varghulf hurts quite a bit. Hopefully the bats and dogs will be able to harass war machines and the dogs have an added job as a dragon trap. Still not really sure what my skelly units are actually for, but if I boost their numbers I'll have a solid core to work around. If not then at least I haven't wasted many points on them.

I have to admit, a large part of the reason the blood knights are still in the list is that I'm making some at the moment. I have a nice conversion based on glade riders and my own weight in green stuff. Anyway, the dogs and bats can now shepherd them where they are wanted I think. Likewise, I think I can make some cool bats. Less sure about the doggies, but the plastic ones are pretty nice anyway.

List would look like this:

Vampire Lord
- Magic Level
- Master of the Black Arts
- Forbidden Lore
- Lord of the Dead
- Helm of Command
- Skull Staff

Vampire
- Dark Acolyte
- Avatar of Death (great weapon)
- Flayed Hauberk
- Talisman of Lycni

Vampire
- Dread Knight
- Blood Drinker

Wight King
Battle Standard
Sword of Kings

10 Skeletons
- Champion
- Musician
- Standard

10 Skeletons
- Champion
- Musician
- Standard

14 Skeletons
- Champion
- Musician
Standard

16 Grave Guard
- Seneschal
- Musician
- Standard
- Banner of the Barrows

5 Blood Knights
- Standard
- Royal Standard of Strigoi

7 Dire wolves
- Doom wolf

4 Fel bats

duckface
03-08-2009, 09:23
dont give grave gaurd graet weapons unless you have a corpse cart near by killing blow is good enough

Mandragola
03-08-2009, 23:48
dont give grave gaurd graet weapons unless you have a corpse cart near by killing blow is good enough

Yeah to be honest I've never really considered great weps in this army build. If I had corpse carts and ASF in the enemy turn then I could use great weps, but even then I like the save better for this unit. In any case, it will have two characters in the front rank to do the damage most of the time.