PDA

View Full Version : The Ultimate 2000 point Dwarf army of DOOM



Akuma
07-01-2006, 18:37
Now that i have your attention i would like to ask - how would you beat this army :) - Anvil is well guarded by 2 organ guns - i have some gunline and on top of it i have the means to kill all flayers enemy can throw at me - i can slow enemy units ( the strongest ones ) with the anvil to give me more time for shooting them and i have the stuff for counterattack - i also have lods of diss dice and 2 scrolls - miners unit can wreck havoc beind enemy lines IF opponent refuses to come to me - I got all bases covered - so is there no way you could beat me ??? ( Ok I was jocking - i just want some feedback :D )

1 Runelord @ 440 Pts
General; Gromril Armour
#Anvil of Doom [0]
Runic Armour [75]
Master Rune of Gromril
Rune of Resistance
Rune of Shielding
Runic Talisman [50]
Rune of Spellbreaking (x2)

1 Master Engineer 80 Pts

2x 20 Warriors 205 Pts
Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Veteran

2x 10 Thunderers 140 Pts


2x 10 Miners 145 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Prospector; Steamdrill

1 Bolt Thrower 80 Pts
Engineer
Flakkson's Rune of Seeking
Rune of Burning

1 Bolt Thrower 75 Pts
Engineer
Flakkson's Rune of Seeking

1 Cannon 105 Pts
Engineer

2x Organ Gun 240 Pts

Dispel Pool: 6

Casting Pool: 2

Models in Army: 107

Total Army Cost: 2000

Dark_Blade
07-01-2006, 23:20
It seems like you dont have any really hard units. Any army where they hit you on turn two will most likely give you a hard time, especially if they go first. High elf cav list comes to mind as well as brets. I may be looking at this wrong but this is just my opinion

Major Defense
08-01-2006, 03:11
When I look at lists like this I wonder if Dwarven players assume that magic can't hurt them...? What's the range on an organ gun? 18"? From the right angle a unit of Dragon Princes and/or chariots could feint close and charge the anvil. Thunderers hitting on 5s aren't as valuable as melee troops to physically block access to the anvil. I'm no Dwarf expert but this list seems to have a few holes in it.

Muzzle
08-01-2006, 05:00
When I look at lists like this I wonder if Dwarven players assume that magic can't hurt them...?

Not sure what you mean, he has 7 DD and 2 scrolls, in a normal game that would usually be considered at least adequate if not a bit much...


What's the range on an organ gun? 18"?

24"

Other than that, I would tend to agree.

archysucks_Hail_Crom
08-01-2006, 09:08
I will fully admit that is one hell of an army.

Screamers would block my right flank furies to the left going of course for the Organ guns.

I would have to bring a VERY cheesy/unfluffy list but I think I could do it.
2x units of Khorne knights with an exalted champ in each. 1 unit 3x dragon ogres Gw and light armor. 2x chariots with 2 units of marauder horsemen to bait with. two units of warhounds as well to screen the knights. and another two units of marauder horsemen to go after the cannon then bolt thrower. Don't get me wrong it would be tough but I think that gives me enough weapons at my disposal to at least draw you.

TeddyC
08-01-2006, 09:19
Hmmmm.... Warriors are damn tough units.... Id be tempted to drop the thunderers in favour of longer range quarellers....

Other than that it looks VERY nasty... I think oyu make over loaded you rune lord though... If he is so well protected... does he really need all that?

It is a pretty nice army though...

Akuma
08-01-2006, 11:00
Thanks for the feedback - the fact is that I by no means claim this is unbeatable dwarf army - just that is almost as maxed ( cheesed out ) as Dwarf army under new rules can be... and I play chaos so i too would have a chance aginst it with dragon lord army ( tzeensch )

for the other points :

Organ gunes now have 24" AND thay can reroll artilery dice if it dosnt show misfire - whitch happens to make them great at killing things like flyiers , fast cavs , and skirmishers - + all the thing that can come from my edge of a board ( ghules , dire wolves , beastman etc )

Magic defense - well if 7 dices constant AND 2 diss scrolls arent enought to stop magic till the time i deal with you'r army - well you must play diffrent game than i do

For the thunderers - they dont hit on 5+ - people read the rules :D thay have +1 to hit on all ranges and this makes them as good as HE with bows - only thay have shorter range and better punch - - agin great unit in this rooster because i can slow down you'r most priced unit - lets say grails and popper them with shots -

Another thing - miners - don't forget that with stim drills thay are almost sure to arrive by turn 3 and with anvil move thay can charge right after thay apper - that gives me a tool to further slow down enemy or attack him on his edge of a board ...

Fast armys can be dealt in 2 ways - one is miner bargain - sacrifice units of miners and flee from charges to giwe me more time shooting ( remember that warriors are tought as nails AND if thay fight something weekend by all this shooting thay will probably hold it enought ) OR slowing them down by casting slow spell on 4+ - yeah its a risk but if i have no hope other than that i will take my chance AND in 50% cases it could winn me a game ( immagine 2 of your festest unit beeing able to move only half speed AND combine that with miners mowing in front of them for even bigger deley + beeing struck for 2d6 s4 hits - isnt it nice :D ??? )

The bottom line is - i chalange enyone who thinks he can make more tournament able army than this one USING THE DWARF LORD and not the anvil :D ( the point is to show that GW gave dwarfs a dragon that looks like harmless smithy equipment ) ...

The competition has started - post you'r entrys HERE :)

MEGALOMANIKER
08-01-2006, 13:51
Book of Hoeth

Akuma
08-01-2006, 14:57
BoH = extremly expensive - very valnurable model that is randomising his spells ( no points left for seer ) and has no protection - If you fail to see in how many ways my army can kill him by turn 3 - well thats your problem - next plese :D

static grass
08-01-2006, 16:13
I think this list is rather good, using the old book taking a shooty list like this would be very bad so it is nice to see the new book offering some more choice. Thanks to Pete, this book is ten times better than Gav's effort just goes to show how much performance is related to employment at GW. I think skaven will give you are hard time though with lots of very large units. I think you will be vulnerable to VC and TK though as all of your regiments are small. 7 dispell plus two scrolls are a comfort but you cant be sure to stop every spell, even if it is fun when you do.

So I think the only way to be sure (well nearly this is WFB) of beating you is to use better tactics.

Major Defense
08-01-2006, 21:44
BoH = extremly expensive - very valnurable model that is randomising his spells ( no points left for seer ) and has no protection - If you fail to see in how many ways my army can kill him by turn 3 - well thats your problem - next plese :DNext indeed. If you face a HE army with 2-3 units of 10 archers and 1-2 melee units, all of the war machines in the world aren't going to help you kill him by turn 3. Rather than debate this all day, I would suggest that you challenge HE players you know to use the book and see what happens.

Danger Rat
09-01-2006, 09:31
You might struggle with fast moving armies that can get into combat in 2 turns as your shooting might not not do enough damage and there is a slim chance your miners won't have made it on too the board to stop them making a mess of your thunderers before picking off your warriors. I don't think your magic defense is a problem at all. I think overall from what ive read so far of the new dwarf book its a good army

MEGALOMANIKER
09-01-2006, 10:43
BoH = extremly expensive - very valnurable model that is randomising his spells ( no points left for seer ) and has no protection - If you fail to see in how many ways my army can kill him by turn 3 - well thats your problem - next plese :D


Well, how shall I put it... Let's just say I disagree.

However I do agree that your magic defence is good enough as it is.

Ps. Have you ever met a decent HE army using this combo?

Akuma
09-01-2006, 14:00
It's not a problem to do a list that is specificly build up to win with this one - the trick is to show that a HE tournament list would have a chance aginst it - sure 3 archer units - valnurable as unit can be - cost = 360 pts :/ - your mage will be around 355 pts + 2 spearman unit it sums up to about 12xx ore something like that - and the sad fact is that miners charging from the edge will hit you in the back - meaning no ranks for you meaning +2 cr for me and you won't be able to use spears - easy caunting - expensive death unit if mage went there - well he's death to - the false assumption that you made is that you are safe on your deployment zone - well it's just the opposite - you'r not in one turn i can hit you hard - either on the flank or at the back with Very nasty unit and if you move foward you get in range for the thunderers - AND in addition remember that i have the anvil so all those week units will get hit by d6 s4 ... the list goes on ...

MEGALOMANIKER
13-01-2006, 14:27
...

What do you want, an applaud? Because you are able to present one side of a matter in a good way? Unfortunatly I'm not such good at arguing and beside that so is my English not good enough to allow me to talk like I normally would do with my mother language... (just as a side note...:rolleyes: ).

And it seems to me like you think that your army is unbeatable. Well let me inlight you: Its not.
Everything doesn't have to turn out like you think it will and what if the HE army General happens to be a real "Einstein", well if you are asking me you are out on deep water, it doesn't necessarily have to be a HE army either that your are facing even if it so may be in this case.


Now when you know that I'm not able to come with any reasonable objections I hope that you are satisfied and that the rest of the people who been trying to help you can continue with that, for your own good...

Your sincerely "MEGALOMANIKER".

Ps. I believe that the meaning with such threads as yours is to help eachother out with whatever they need/want help with and to be able to do so one important thing is to be polite in your respondings. Now I'm not saying that you been excactly rude or anything like that but some of your answers have been quite disparaging (I'm referring to one contribution specific...).

I hope, and believe, that you will do well on the battle field with you stubborn dwarfs.
Ds.

Xisor
13-01-2006, 17:25
I'd raise a few concerns here:

Magic Heavy Vampires
Magic Heavy Lizardmen

Basically, if someone bypasses your magical defenses, I can only forsee problems. That said, I have a distinct reservation about how well this army will perform against Tomb Kings. I don't know entirely why, I'm not an especially experienced player, but a Tomb kings army seems...perhaps problematic if it gets through.

Xisor

Ganymede
13-01-2006, 17:38
I'd be more concerned of a non SAD skaven force.

One thing I fail to understand is the hype over organ guns. They can reroll their hits and sudenly they are the best thing since sliced bread.

Akuma
14-01-2006, 09:04
@MEGALOMANIKER


nfortunatly I'm not such good at arguing and beside that so is my English not good enough to allow me to talk like I normally would do with my mother language...

Same here - i just can't count the number of times somebody makes fun of me from this reason :D - so don't worry we're ridding on the same cart...



And it seems to me like you think that your army is unbeatable

Objection :D - I think just the opposite - i don't play dwarf :D - i'm just concerned about armys build up like this with anvil - this thread is straight line from anotther one in whitch we disscussed the anvil itself and i promised to build up a decent list using it - by any means i don't think this OR in fact any other army is unbeatable

@Xisor

If I hit Necromancer Zombi train - yes you'r right i may have problems - but then it all depends on his magic phase - exactly same with lizzis exept that i can shoot and charge slan unit with miners to try to take him down

@Ganymede

Skaven don't use non sad in tourneys arond here ;D and organ guns are just a blast because thay are soooo godly at taking down skirmishers and stuff that can be dengerous to my anvil...

Gotreksbrother
14-01-2006, 09:56
A few things you could improve on your current list...


1 Runelord @ 440 Pts
General; Gromril Armour
#Anvil of Doom [0]
Runic Armour [75]
Master Rune of Gromril
Rune of Resistance
Rune of Shielding
Runic Talisman [50]
Rune of Spellbreaking (x2)
The Runelord can easily be killed in close combat, by a Tomb Scorpion or Gorger or a hero on a monster. He already has gromril armour, just give him rune of stone and a shield and he has a rerollable 1+ save in close combat and you save 17 points. Rune of Shielding is a complete waste since the anvil already gives him 4+ ward save versus shooting, and you have to randomise hits against him and the remaining crew. If you also drop a Rune of Spellbreaking you are saving 67 points, use them on a Master Rune of Balance and a Rune of Preservation...You now have 8 dispel dice (9 if you count your enemy loosing one of his) and your Lord is immune to killing blow and poison...so the Gorger and Tomb Scorpion are dealt with...



Master Engineer 80 Pts
Give him a Handgun, for 5 points you get a S4 shot that hits on 2+, perfect for killing some fast cavalry or taking out someone charging the warmachine he is with (which I assume will be the cannon??

2x 20 Warriors 205 Pts
Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Veteran

2x 10 Thunderers 140 Pts
give them Shields! for 20 points both units have a 5+ save against shooting and 4+ in close combat, too good to pass up on

2x 10 Miners 145 Pts
Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Prospector; Steamdrill

1 Bolt Thrower 80 Pts
Engineer
Flakkson's Rune of Seeking
Rune of Burning

1 Bolt Thrower 75 Pts
Engineer
Flakkson's Rune of Seeking

1 Cannon 105 Pts
Engineer
Rune of Forging is a must on the cannon, it makes the cannon near infallible

2x Organ Gun 240 Pts

Dispel Pool: 6

Casting Pool: 2

Models in Army: 107

Total Army Cost: 2000
__________________

Other than that:

Your army is not beardy, it relies entirely on its anvil and warmachines and is very fragile at its core...versus horde armies and undead you are in for a really rough time and versus bretonnians and ogres you have to hope you shoot everything down or once they reach you it wont be a pretty sight. Dwarf Warriors are amongst the best in the game, but autobreak from Fear is their bane, so unless your anvil manages to hit the ancient power and cover both warriors units the enemy will have his pick...

other than that its fairly typical gunline with reliable shooting instead of the potentially more dangerous but random shooting the Flame Cannon and Grudge Throwers offer

bloodwraith
14-01-2006, 23:56
Well your list is not cheesy at all,

The anvil is vunerable to burrowers.

the thunderers are vunerable to being seperated from the main army or hit by tunnelers.

The engineer is also vunerable to tunnelers or burrowers

Good flank charges on those slow moving dwarf warrior blocks is quite easy to do.

Your miners are too small to be anything but a nuisance, as soon as they pop up they will get shot or magiced to hell.

the artillery is very vunerable to tunnelers and burrowers because you just don't have the set up to protect them. Your army will also get swamped by horde armies.

Don't get me wrong, it's a nice friendly list but it's not beardy or scary.

Akuma
15-01-2006, 09:52
You don't play much do you :D ???

1) Tunnelers - Yes I full agree - BUT how many tunnelrs are there ??? Tomb Scorpians and Skaven Gutter runners ??? - oh joy 2 armies - and the rest of them ....


2) Dwarfs won't come to you - thay have the means - and loads of them to make you come to me - so i will have plenty of time to preper my positioning


3) Miners ... read the rules - thay pop and i use the anvil thay hit the enemy on turn thay show up - when exactly will you shoot them to death or magic them there when i have 8 diss dice AND 2 scrolls ???


All your valid points resolve around the tunnelers - and i agree but remember that if - scorpian is for sure able to deal with dwarf crew - the gutter runner may be not - AND thay usualy kill one machine and then get blasted to hell with organ guns...

As i said Horde armys may be a problem BUT with all that shooting and good mountain to defend - so i can deny flank charges it is a tactic contest ...

Think about it the other way - what will WE do with this list - most priced units will get anviled to death - or shoot to it by much strudier and tougher dwarf troops... What will chaos do ??? What will ogres do ??? What will DE do - the list goes on - sure small amount of armys may even have advantage over this one BUT majority will be strongly underpowered when facing it - thats the problem Anvil is just a little to powerfull :/ - the range and LOS should be needed for it's effects ....

bloodwraith
15-01-2006, 10:49
1) Tunnelers - Yes I full agree - BUT how many tunnelrs are there ??? Tomb Scorpians and Skaven Gutter runners ??? - oh joy 2 armies - and the rest of them ....


Hmm, how about dwarves? and ogres?

2) Dwarfs won't come to you - thay have the means - and loads of them to make you come to me - so i will have plenty of time to preper my positioning


I know they won't come to you. Those stunty little legs don't allow for it. You have some average shooting to try and make me come to you. However if someone reacts instead of following their plan they deserve to lose. Your shooting is easier to neutralise then you think.

3) Miners ... read the rules - thay pop and i use the anvil thay hit the enemy on turn thay show up - when exactly will you shoot them to death or magic them there when i have 8 diss dice AND 2 scrolls ???

Yeah that is all well and good but you only have ten of them and if you use them incautiously they will get owned. My example with the ogres, the only way to use them safely would be to use them to support charges. You can't really use them in the way they are normally used because the ogres don't have stationary guns.


All your valid points resolve around the tunnelers - and i agree but remember that if - scorpian is for sure able to deal with dwarf crew - the gutter runner may be not - AND thay usualy kill one machine and then get blasted to hell with organ guns...

Hmm, tunnelers are exceptional. Especially gorgers and if used correctly dwarf miners. Gorgers will kill any warmachine crew.


As i said Horde armys may be a problem BUT with all that shooting and good mountain to defend - so i can deny flank charges it is a tactic contest ...

You're shooting is small units and vunerable warmachines. You may not have a mountain you can bung all your shooting on. Even if you do, putting it all on a hill is quite silly as you are presenting an all you can eat.

Think about it the other way - what will WE do with this list - most priced units will get anviled to death - or shoot to it by much strudier and tougher dwarf troops... What will chaos do ??? What will ogres do ??? What will DE do - the list goes on - sure small amount of armys may even have advantage over this one BUT majority will be strongly underpowered when facing it - thats the problem Anvil is just a little to powerfull :/ - the range and LOS should be needed for it's effects ....

Wood elves will dance around you, opportunistically charge your warmachines or anvil and if this was a situation where i was designing to beat this army. Lots of bowmen. Then i can stay out of range of most of your artillery and pick off your thunderers. Meanwhile either my hunter highborn or my archer lord will shoot your anvil and warmachines to pieces.

Ogres will send their gorgers and hunter and sabretusks after your machines. Smash your weaker thunderer units and roll up with leadbelchers after dealing with the most devestating artillery and shoot you. Or smash you to bits with ironguts. Scrap launcha can make a mess of your precious anvil unless you do something about it, which would mean your miners.

Can't speak for the other two armies as i don't play them. What will your list do against a moderately "gunned up" skaven force? Especially the kind of skaven armies i've seen? With massed hordes of rats and ratling guns which will make swiss cheese of you. Engineers to dispel your magic and jezzails to potshot your artillery. Not to mention gutter runners and assassins. An assassin with a brass orb would work a treat on your anvil.

Good luck with your army though.

Akuma
15-01-2006, 11:31
Hmm, how about dwarves? and ogres?

Dwarfs is a mirror match and gorgers can't charge when thay turn up AND turn up Very randomly - i have 2 organ guns and 2 bolt throwers that will make kebabs out of the in one turn.


Your shooting is easier to neutralise then you think.


Dwarfs have the most resilient and second most accurate shooting units in the game - thunderers hit as good as HE archers and are very strudy shooting in this army is very hard to neutralise. Screens are easly taken out with organ guns AND on top of that the anvil just makes it easier then it should be :)


Yeah that is all well and good but you only have ten of them and if you use them incautiously they will get owned. My example with the ogres, the only way to use them safely would be to use them to support charges. You can't really use them in the way they are normally used because the ogres don't have stationary guns.

Hmm lets think aobut that - how many attacks will i have if i charge an ogre unit in the flank - and will I ba able to inflict 3 wound with my attacks - if yes the normal ogre unit will flee like there's no tommorow and i can always go for your beck and deny you a marching for 1 turn - an this gives me additional round of shooting


mm, tunnelers are exceptional. Especially gorgers and if used correctly dwarf miners. Gorgers will kill any warmachine crew.

The problem with gorgers is dealt earlier - thay must waist a turn after thay appear and that gives me enought time to send them to kingdom come ... Dwarf miners are mirror match situation - no candy for you


You're shooting is small units and vunerable warmachines. You may not have a mountain you can bung all your shooting on. Even if you do, putting it all on a hill is quite silly as you are presenting an all you can eat.

Dwarf warmchines are enything but valnurable - hard and stubborn crews - what would you say about elves bolt htrowers ??? wind can take them out or what and 20 tunderers that can do good as 5x2 units in cc are more then enought to support the main line - putting warmachines on a hill have all bonusses - thay can see everything and with my miners and shooting i can deal with enenmy warmachines early on...



Wood elves will dance around you, opportunistically charge your warmachines or anvil and if this was a situation where i was designing to beat this army. Lots of bowmen. Then i can stay out of range of most of your artillery and pick off your thunderers. Meanwhile either my hunter highborn or my archer lord will shoot your anvil and warmachines to pieces.

Designing an army to counter specific build up is called siding and is as chilidsh as it can get :D - We are talking about tournament sheets now - the problem is that all those fast units that "will charge me" will wither and die form one spell d6s4 OR if i get desperate 2d6s4 - i can target them enywhere and it also cant march after beeing hit - on top of that i can also use it aginst archers so you will die fast and surly and as the warmachnes are covered you couldnt charge them anywhay without beeing in range of organ guns at least for one turn - AND nobody uses lords in 2K we roosters - read the asrai forum thay are the most complete source of WE tactics and thay say NO for a lord in 2K format.


Ogres will send their gorgers and hunter and sabretusks after your machines. Smash your weaker thunderer units and roll up with leadbelchers after dealing with the most devestating artillery and shoot you. Or smash you to bits with ironguts. Scrap launcha can make a mess of your precious anvil unless you do something about it, which would mean your miners.


Scrap Luncha = cannon , no body uses hunter in tournaments , and most of all typical ogre rooster wont even get near me - will get shoot down in the middle of the fild - get charged by miners as sacrificial units and - ask our Mod Avian - he can tell you something about plaing agist anvil with ogres ...


Can't speak for the other two armies as i don't play them. What will your list do against a moderately "gunned up" skaven force? Especially the kind of skaven armies i've seen? With massed hordes of rats and ratling guns which will make swiss cheese of you. Engineers to dispel your magic and jezzails to potshot your artillery. Not to mention gutter runners and assassins. An assassin with a brass orb would work a treat on your anvil.


That sums things up nicly and shows one thing :/ you didnt read the rules for the new dwarfs Anvil is not magic now so i't cennot be dispelled man :rolleyes: - and Aginst SAD as i suppose thats what you'r talking about ( lods of magic and shooting with GS ) - well this army will win aginst them EVERY TIME 2 miners unit hit the beck of you'r large units with GS and Enginners - i kill few rats ( 7 attacks hitting on 3+ wounding on 2+ - how many kills is that ??? ) you'r unit dont have ranks i have charge form the back bonus - the only thing that you have is numbers and a banner - so it evens out with my rear bonus oh and i get +1 for the rank :D - one hidously expensive rat units fleeing - Jezzeils ??? nothing easier d6s4 hits and thay go home - assasins ??? how the hack his going to get to the anvil ??? Spell - with 8 diss dice and 2 diss scorlls i dont think so and how many skav player acctualy take the assasin ??? Rattling gins have little range so enemy will be swith cheese before he gets to shoot them at me ...

All in all i'm not claming i've created unbeatable army - I stress it one more time - Just that there are armys that will have VERY hard time dealing with it ...

oma
15-01-2006, 12:12
remember, if you use 2 organguns and two bolt throwers too shoot at the gorger (or maybe 2 of them) then the rest of the ogre army comes closer...

and just for show: tyrant with mastadon armour? if he gets killed from range he'll stand up at 2+ and move on, he'll wipe out your thunderers and your warmashine crew, and if the ogre player has 2 gorgers as well this could look ugly, counting that this is just about 400 points of his 2000 points...

not unbeateble list, but you must design your army for it..

bloodwraith
15-01-2006, 12:32
The gorgers are tunnelers so you won't be shooting them, unless the person using them has no idea what he's doing. If you do get a chance to shoot them, it will mean that you've lost an expensive artillery piece or a squad of thunderers which means your defense or shooting has been severely hampered. Although i'd throw one gorger at your anvil so i can negate it or kill it.

Oma: i don't think you do need to design for it as it's a pretty normal composition as alot of other dwarf units.

Akuma
15-01-2006, 12:45
not unbeateble list, but you must design your army for it..

Thats EXACTLY what I'm talking about - in tourney enviroment you don't design armys to counter threats as limited as my list - sure in a friendly game - why not but if you bump at this at a GD or something it will end very ugly for you ...


The gorgers are tunnelers so you won't be shooting them,

Please do us all a faveour and read the rules :D - this is the second times you post a thing that is simply not true - Gorgers are by no means tunnelers they just get to move from any edge of a board whitch means thay can't charge ( as a unit that persuited of a board ) and the rest is also false - if i can't shoot at them thay cant charge me i have no los = thay have no los easy as that .

oma
15-01-2006, 13:27
in a turney i would (if playing ogres) use a tyrant with mastadon armour and let him take all the stupid little shooting units that he could find, and i say that him alone could easely distrupt this lists possebileties....

lol: what about a dwarf char with 2+ ws against shooting, and a anvil too get his pace up?

Akuma
15-01-2006, 15:05
So you play week tyrant then :D I recomend ogrestronghold ( i think it was www.ogrestronghold.com ) there the common knowledge is that tyrrant is most suitably fitted with wyrdsotne neklace and tenderiser :D Mastodont armour wouldnt help much just from one simple reason - I can charge you and kill you easly with miners unit - why ??? Because Mastodont dosnt give 2+ ward aginst shooting - it lets you stand up with one wound on 2+ and thats BIG BIG diffrance - one standard statistic charge from miners and he he's death :)

I'm still waiting for Avi to comment on this list ...

oma
15-01-2006, 17:34
how are you planning on charging the tyrant? even if YOU start the match (wich you probably wont with all the units you have) the tyrant starts the maych probably 12" from the table edge, and moving at 12" this makes for 24" from the table edge where your miners will come from, if they come! (and it isn't even sure that you have killed him from range yet either so he can have several wounds left, and if you have focused so much fiering on him than much of my goal is reached cause then the rest of my army is complete) so i am almost posetive that i can choose my fights with the tyrant, and mastadon armour is onely 50 of 100 points magic items so i can still give him wyrdstone neclace and + 3 strength (if i remember correctly, might be wrong here)

and even if you do get to charge the tyrant with the miners after directing all the shoots at him so that he only has 1 wound left, those miner units are only 10 men strong, hitting at 4+ wounding at 4+ making me get 5+ ward save (and 5+ armour save if i use the ironfist, and 1 re-rollable cause of luck gnoblar) he might just strike back 5 attacks hitting at 3+ wounding at 3+ making room for no save, he'll strike first next round and he may win combat (with a little luck)

sorry bad english, but i think that i have proven that that tyrant is somewhat of the biggest threats this dwarven army can face (and if you DONT fire at him he'll have 5 wounds and i might just charge a 3rank unit of warriors)

Akuma
15-01-2006, 18:23
1) My english is THE worst case on this forums :D - don't even try to beat me in my own game :D

2) Teoretical analisys : how many dwarf will fit on the tyrrant base ??? 4 ??? That gives us 3 attacks hitting on 4+ ( lats say 1 hits - it wounds on 4+ ) and 2 attacks hitting on hittingo on 4+ ( lets say 1 hits - thay wound on 3+ - steam drills ) if we took statistics in to account thay would both wound ( as one of 3 attacks hitting on 4+ didnt hit ) you'r tyrrant ( for 305 pts ) has to ward of 5+ - with one re roll - the funny thing is that both miner units are cheeper than your tyrrant - you dont have any as just this one ward save - tyrrant will have tought case with this unit AND remember if you'r speeding for my lines i will have means to target you and take you down to 1 wound - all in all if you are not 12" from both edges you'll get maulled by picks and steamdrill

3) This tyrrant build up is never used ( i've been member of the ogrestronghold site and we never use him like that because it has no chance aginst another thing that ruins the day for ogres - Dragon - If you cant kill dragon in chalange any dragon lord army will kill you just because it is present on the battle fild - thats why any tournament lists from ogre kingdoms have tenderiser )

bloodwraith
16-01-2006, 02:56
Well you never said this was a tournament army. Also my bad on the gorgers but that just makes them that more dangerous to your gun line. So they can't charge. They can move into cover so they can charge in the next turn. Actually an ogre tyrant doesn't necessarily have to be able to kill the dragon, just the dude riding it.

The tyrant i use looks like this;

Tyrant: heavy armour, great weapon, general, mawseeker, gut maw, spangleshard, jade lion

I think he could kill a dragon without the tenderisier. Considering he has 5 S7 attacks and has 5 Wounds at T6.

He is designed to soak up alot of fire. If you ignore him, he'll crash into combat and challenge one of your champions and collect another wound. Also how would you plan to charge a tyrant if he is in a unit of ironguts or something? You also have to take into account that when facing ogres your shooting won't be as effective as you seem to believe. If i were going to play in a tourney i would take a hunter because he so damn effective and his bolt thrower is a welcome addition to leadbelchers and has the range to shoot your artillery if positioned correctly. Also those sabretusks are extremely fast and if used properly can cause a whole slew of problems for your precious gunline. Give him the greyback pelt or longstrider name and he is all of a sudden a dangerous threat to your handgunners or artillery. The hunter is very underrated by alot of players. I think he would be perfect in a tournament environment.

Mad Makz
16-01-2006, 03:37
2) Teoretical analisys : how many dwarf will fit on the tyrrant base ??? 4 ??? That gives us 3 attacks hitting on 4+ ( lats say 1 hits - it wounds on 4+ ) and 2 attacks hitting on hittingo on 4+ ( lets say 1 hits - thay wound on 3+ - steam drills ) if we took statistics in to account thay would both wound ( as one of 3 attacks hitting on 4+ didnt hit ) you'r tyrrant ( for 305 pts ) has to ward of 5+ - with one re roll - the funny thing is that both miner units are cheeper than your tyrrant - you dont have any as just this one ward save - tyrrant will have tought case with this unit AND remember if you'r speeding for my lines i will have means to target you and take you down to 1 wound - all in all if you are not 12" from both edges you'll get maulled by picks and steamdrill


Just a note on this. Steam Drills strike Last (always, even when you charge, They aren't great weapons the just have the strike last ruen) and the Tyrant will challenge your Champion and kill him.

Apart from that, your army list is good and will be a good tournament opponent. I think you may even find people turning to face backwards in a U formation against you, just to deal with the second turn miner charge if they can't evacuate their deployment zone fast enough.

You're only real problem is if you're anvil misfires. Rolling a 1 with it on it's first use could really hurt your battle plan.

bored1
16-01-2006, 03:46
Just a note on this. Steam Drills strike Last (always, even when you charge, They aren't great weapons the just have the strike last ruen) and the Tyrant will challenge your Champion and kill him.

Why would you accept the challenge?

oma
16-01-2006, 12:42
nr 3 may be the worst argument i've ever heard, i shouldent use this lord cause he cant slay a dragon... ?!? WTF nobody (here in norway anyway) uses a dragon in turnaments... the onely reason to use the tenderiser is to take out other ogres and things like that

and nr 2: if you play at a 4x6 foot board and place your tyrant in the middle of your line those miners will never ever reach my tyrant

this buildup for a tyrant is actually pretty good if you think about it, hill take every small unit that comes in his way, he'll draw enemy fire cause the opponent probably want to kill your tyrant (and then the suprise when he stands up at 2+ lol) and with a GW he'll auto kill chariots and that like... give him ironfist if you want 3+ armour save in cc... not to bad realy (but useless against chaos and other power armies)

Akuma
16-01-2006, 13:02
@bloodwraith

You have your viewpoint and i have mine :D - I strongly encourage you to read and wirte on the forum called www.ogrestonghold.com - you think in just opposite direction and every forum needs such refreshment - go there and tell them what you think :)

Akuma
16-01-2006, 13:03
nr 3 may be the worst argument i've ever heard, i shouldent use this lord cause he cant slay a dragon... ?!? WTF nobody (here in norway anyway) uses a dragon in turnaments... the onely reason to use the tenderiser is to take out other ogres and things like that

In my country EVERY player uses one ... look at top GT lists ;)

oma
16-01-2006, 18:07
if they play dragons; dont they get shoot down? i mean; largetarget bolt throwers get to hit at 3+ 4+ and do D3 wounds, stone throwers get D6 wounds, cannons get D3 or D6 wounds, i would say this is a liabilaty and point waste, any unit will win the first round of combat (three rank banner ect.) then flank with another 3 rank unit and the dragon is useless, if there is a char in that unit aswell maybe he'll get a wound or 2 at the dragon, and there is a small chance that they could run him down too...

but then again: there is the rest of the army..

Mad Makz
16-01-2006, 21:33
Why would you accept the challenge?
His arguement was based around the rnf troops and the champion getting all their attacks. That's not going to happen against an Ogre Tyrant because of the challenge rules (either the tyrant will challenge and be accepted or declined, either way the champions and RNF aren't fighting).

Bjoernes
18-01-2006, 07:26
(either the tyrant will challenge and be accepted or declined, either way the champions and RNF aren't fighting).

I presume you mean that if accepting, the miner champion will be fighting (most likely the tyrant will squash the champion and gain a nice overkill bonus), or if declining the RnF will be fighting.... Either way I think the miners would need to be lucky to deal with the tyrant...

Shoot me if I'm wrong, but this is the way I see it;)

Mad Makz
18-01-2006, 23:24
Yep, that's what I mean, both the rnf AND the unit will never be fighting at the same time, thus the example give was impossible (except against a very poor ogre general).

Varek
19-01-2006, 16:22
Mad Makz mentioned it and u didn't answered akuma...
What about if u roll a 1 on first turn in anvil and roll 1 in problem's table?
And another question... Anvil has only one use per turn, and u always say that u slow the units and make miners charge.
My questions are: do u have present that u can't do everything?
Don't u fell that you'll be a bit outnumbered agains horde players?
And, what would u use, normal power on 2+ or ancient in 4+ ->50% to work...
In my opinion I would not trust all my army in an element that works well on 50% chance and has an 17% of entering in problems.

Varek
19-01-2006, 16:25
I know that it's a bit sad but could somebody answer my list written down: Generic Dwarf arny? ty

Akuma
19-01-2006, 20:35
Mad Makz mentioned it and u didn't answered akuma...
What are you refering to ?


What about if u roll a 1 on first turn in anvil and roll 1 in problem's table?

Yeah it will happen ... once in 36 games :/ It's the same caliber as asking what if you roll a misscast on a archamge in first turn that will kill him - young or inexperienced players ask this sort of questions...


And another question... Anvil has only one use per turn, and u always say that u slow the units and make miners charge.
My questions are: do u have present that u can't do everything?

TK magic usualy get one spell per turn and this can win them a game - the same with anvil it gives you numerous possibilitys - you can use them any way you want but as thay are uncouterable thay will - without a doubt - if used at right time be a deciding factor of the match ( 12" charge range is nothing to sneez at )...


Don't u fell that you'll be a bit outnumbered agains horde players?

Yest - but thats a gun line - the whole concept is to be able to kill all units but the number that you can safly deal with ( namly two ) - most armys will have 3-5 units - with miners and all this shooting i can be calm that with good set up i can only be charged by two of enemy units. 20 Thunderers , 2 Organ Guns , Cannon , 2 Bolth Throwers this will suffice for any hord army... ( and thay have lov LD usualy )...


And, what would u use, normal power on 2+ or ancient in 4+ ->50% to work...
In my opinion I would not trust all my army in an element that works well on 50% chance and has an 17% of entering in problems.

Most of the times i would be using 2+ , BUT the another overpowered and mind blowing aspect of the anvil is that if you know that everything is going dark you can close your eyes and roll - you have 50% that you'll turn around the game with just one roll - what's beats that ???

Varek
20-01-2006, 06:46
I am not young, I am 24.
It is not a question of experience, it is a question of murphy laws xD
I know that that will happen in 1/36 games, but, It is there.
I question that because i always play against a mate who is TH. And when the tomb lich rolls three ones, he looks at me and says... difficulty 3 xD.
I have enjoyed very much reading your post.
Now it is time to all dwarves to validate the list you've written, or similar lists.
I will do it.