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RampagingRavener
07-01-2006, 19:48
Ok, I'm trying to decide what to have as my next army. So far, I've narrowed it down to two choices-Tau or Orks. My initial choice was tau due to the new codex being released soon, and I've started getting a few models for them as well.

But, I recently read the Feral Ork armylist, which sparked an intrest...while regular orks do have an old codex that is unlikely to be redone for a long time, and the vehicles are horrid, they seem to be a fine army, even if half the wargear is useless. Ferals I'm not so intrested in any more though, just the regular boyz. They also seem a bit more fun to play than tau.

Hence my problem. Stick with the tau that I've started (about 700 points worth so far), or switch to orks. For the record, I also have the following armies:

Tyranids, CC but with plenty of shooting, 8000 points, in regular use.
Black Legion, CC based, 5000 points, no longer in regular use.
Dark Eldar, equal CC and shooting, 2000 points, in reguolar use.

Tau were origionally designed to contrast with my other, rather stabby armies. However, I played a 1000 point carnage game with them, and despite coming second (opponents were 2 marine players and another tau player) I found the experiance a little dull, though that may just have been due to my dislike for such small games.

So, I put it to the good people of Warseer for advice-Tau or Orks, and why?

Norminator
07-01-2006, 19:55
Tau, for all the reasons you've stated yourself. They contrast well with your normal army style, there is a new codex coming out and the current Ork models are not really that inspiring. If you found the tau boring, how about making a more individual army? An O'shovah one, for example, should be suitably different, and if you want to FW have some very good tau models, including flyers.

DraXaus
07-01-2006, 20:03
Well, being a tau player, I must say I love their look of all the Tau Models, but they fail in other areas. They are geared towards ranged combat, and even though they do have kroot it dose not make up for the fact that Tau dislike to get their own hands blooded.

I would have to put my vote on orks. They seem like a fun army, and not one you see too often. At least not for me.

Norminator
07-01-2006, 20:05
I play Tau as well, and I can tell you that a tooled up Shas'O in a crisis suit can more than hold his own in CC. There was one battle I had where he singlehandedly defeated a squad of flayed ones in CC quite easily.

big squig
07-01-2006, 20:11
Being that your armies are all cc based and that you already started tau, I'd stick with em. But you said they were dull huh? How are you playing them? New players tend to play pretty static tau armies, and they can be kinda dull.
Also, I wouldn't discount 1000 point games, tau seem to get better the samller the game is.

I play both armies (tau and orks) reguarly, so I'll be happy to answer any questions.

susu.exp
07-01-2006, 20:25
Orks, just for the sheer variety of ideas you can bring forth with them. They do require experience to use and to build, which I assume anybody with 15k+ armies has. I started a Tau army and then switched to the greenskins. And I donīt regret it. While I think the Tau models look brilliant, they right now lack the depth of background that Orks have, which coupled with the lack of models for many units means that you can use an Ork army to bring out special details in the fluff that you like. So far Tau lack the ammount of bits you can use for conversions that Orks have (where you have 2 backranges, imperial and Chaos bits donīt look too out of place and fantasy O&G to choose from).

Go green.

RampagingRavener
07-01-2006, 20:25
Big Squig: It wasn't static. I advanced forwards with the firewarriors a squad at a time (one squad moves forwards to put pressure on the enemy, other two stay back and give cover fire. Next turn, one of the cover-fire squads moves up etc) and with some kroot, using rapid-firing pules rifles and limited kroot assaults to push back the enemy, and digging into terrain when a paticularly tough opponent cropped up that couldn't be shifted with a couple of turns pounding.

A lone broadside camped at the back giving cover fire, and a small squad of pathfiders assisting and a devilfish with seeker missiles acting as secondary anti-tank. A crisis comander and lone crisis suit supported where needed.

I just found the whole game rather dull. It wasn't a static army, and I did use quite a bit of tactics. The army just seemed...souless, somehow. I didn't enjoy using it. Orks seem more promising for sheer fun, I like the all models bar some of the vehicles, and I've got some ideas for those (big, boar powered chariot types for truks, and the like). I guess I'm just fond of assault armies.

susu.exp: You've made a very convincing case, and I'm starting to swing...

Gupp
07-01-2006, 20:25
I play Tau as well, and I can tell you that a tooled up Shas'O in a crisis suit can more than hold his own in CC. There was one battle I had where he singlehandedly defeated a squad of flayed ones in CC quite easily.
:p dont expect THAT to happen everytime... its not as if the tau can really get any real cc "tooling" aside from a sheild generator...
Generally a commander will get tied up for the entire game if it gets stuck in cc, even when fighting guardsmen or something.

DraXaus
07-01-2006, 21:05
Well, I'm not sure what will be in that Tau Codex, but I hope for the sake monogamy that they'll add other close combat elements to them. It seems if you want to get by against close combat orientated armies, you have to use a sizable amount of kroot warrior mercs to tie them up. And for me, that remains the problem.
Even though I have tried other methods, it always seems to come back to kroot in the end.

To be quite frank, I'm sick of looking at those damned things. They're so ugly, but yet, if I ever hope to stand a chance against the other races, they are the only things I have.

damz451
07-01-2006, 22:15
if only fought tau a few times but with the standard tables at gw stores most enemies can get into cc with the enemy pretty quickly and then ur screwed, orks however are pretty rare nowadays and have so many possibilities for modding (hell a lego truck is probobly more advancedthan their stuff)

cerealkiller195
07-01-2006, 22:40
i love orks, but you have plenty of time to collect tau now and in about a year or three you can collect orks when their codex comes out!

hiram
07-01-2006, 22:43
relly if you have 3 very large cc armies why not buck up and play somthing a little more rounded. take your tau, put some kroot in and by god put the vespid in when they finally hit.

heretic
07-01-2006, 23:03
orks all the way. if I had the money I'd have started a long time ago

Spleendokta
08-01-2006, 08:11
Orks... and heres why. You have 8 optional codex lists when you play orks. Your standard list, speed freaks, the 5 klan lists, and ferals. Orks nothing but close combat oriented? Ever hear of Badmoon flashgitz? Feral/Snakebite hunta'z? The all buggy/bike speed freak list? The Deff Skull (my personal favorite) 3 pie plate plus more looted lascannons/autocannons/plasmacannons than you can handle? Theres a few choices of non assualty Ork lists. Granted they are abit more challenging to play as oppose to an assault 'eavy list, but wouldnt you want the extra challenge? I've always said, playing marines is playing 40k in easy mode... nothing like taking a list from a VERY non popular army and making it succeed. Orks baby! Join the bandwagon now!

RampagingRavener
08-01-2006, 12:27
susu.exp and Spleendokta, you've convinced me. Orks it is! Thanks a lot for the advice, everyone. ;)

One quick question-what would be a good starting force to get? I don't want the battleforce, as I'm planning on converting my own bikes and truks.

susu.exp
08-01-2006, 15:06
It depends on where you want to go with the army, but I think the standard Ork Boys box is a good place to start. For the Codex list that will leave you just short of your mandatory troop choices, either with Shootas or Sluggas, and with the Clan list they are usually enough for the choices. You can test your paint scheme on them, and try any conversions for special Mobs you might want to include. IMO most of the Clan lists are great, but the ones I like the most are Bad Moons (Flash Gits core, up to 3 battlewagons and a free kustom mega blasta for the Waarboss), Evil Sunz (Warbikes as core, up to 3 BWs) and Blood Axes (Kommandos as core, up to 2 Chimaeras). Deending on which list you use different ways to expand the boys core would be appropiate. Right now there are no real bargains to be made, if you donīt want to use the standard Warbikes, but you can save money by converting your units from the plastic boys with assorted bits.

RampagingRavener
08-01-2006, 15:17
So, the codex, two boxes of Boyz, some special weapon blisters and a Warboss would be a good starting point, followed by a couple of Kanz later on?

The two boxes of boyz means I can play around with them quite a bit, probably 16 choppa boyz, 8 shoota boyz (plus a couple of big shoota blisters) and then 8 of either 'Ard Boyz or Flash Gitz.

The Dragon Reborn
08-01-2006, 15:26
GOOOD CHOICE, *pats on back* always good to see more ork players, acourding to warseer they are the preffered army to play agaisnt by a good margin

please tell me you are going to make your own battlewagon?

RampagingRavener
08-01-2006, 15:51
Yea, I was inspired by Andy Chambers (I think it was him) who made one out of a Land Raider, with a load of big metal platforms strapped to the back of it.

But, don't you have to? IIRC, the only official battlewagon sculpts are from Forge World.

susu.exp
08-01-2006, 17:28
So, the codex, two boxes of Boyz, some special weapon blisters and a Warboss would be a good starting point, followed by a couple of Kanz later on?

The two boxes of boyz means I can play around with them quite a bit, probably 16 choppa boyz, 8 shoota boyz (plus a couple of big shoota blisters) and then 8 of either 'Ard Boyz or Flash Gitz.

Thatīs a sound plan. If you mail order, you might save some money by getting dready weapons instead of the blisters and converting Boys with heavy shootas and rokkits from them (though the rokkit buggies rokkits are an alternative for the rokkits).

RampagingRavener
08-01-2006, 20:02
OK, one last (for now) question-Flash Gitz or 'Ard boyz?

'Ard boyz would make a suitable squad for the Warboss to march around with, but at the same time are a more temping target.

Flash Gitz can be suprisingly good at shooting, especially with the new rapid-fire rules, but it only leaves me with one assault unit (aside from the warboss).

EDIT: I also want a looted vehicle in the future, but not a basalisk as its a bit...well...overused. I was thinking a Leman Russ Demolisher, as that means if it goes shooting forward it just serves to get the gun in range quicker, I can still fire, and its a (reasonably) accurate st10 blast for killing tanks.

susu.exp
08-01-2006, 20:39
Well, itīs a tough choice and looking at my list, they are my elite choices. A big mob of FGs and a smaller one of ABs to acompany my Warboss. Donīt underestimate shooty Orks in assaults, flash gits, shoota boys, etc. still have two base attacks, 3 on the charge. Not having a choppa is only a disadvatage when your opponents have an Sv better than 4+ and being mobile while shooting is a great advantage if you take the more dakka upgrade.

Flash gits are my personal favorite special choice, so Iīm kind of biased here, but I would advise taking them over the īArd Boys, but to get them later as well. The Warboss can look after himself in smaller games, and at 1000+ points you can add a unit for him.

athamas
08-01-2006, 21:46
orks are god at chopping.. thus you want combat units..

and orks cant hit the broad side of a barn anyway, so choping-ness is always good!

Spleendokta
09-01-2006, 00:52
OK, one last (for now) question-Flash Gitz or 'Ard boyz?

'Ard boyz would make a suitable squad for the Warboss to march around with, but at the same time are a more temping target.

Flash Gitz can be suprisingly good at shooting, especially with the new rapid-fire rules, but it only leaves me with one assault unit (aside from the warboss).

EDIT: I also want a looted vehicle in the future, but not a basalisk as its a bit...well...overused. I was thinking a Leman Russ Demolisher, as that means if it goes shooting forward it just serves to get the gun in range quicker, I can still fire, and its a (reasonably) accurate st10 blast for killing tanks.

'ard boyz are abit pricey and open to severe punishment from bolter fire, but they do wonders if stuck in a battlewagon with teh boss. Flash gitz can take the more dakka upgrade to make them shoota's assault 2... rapid fire? Who needs rapid fire with this upgrade available. :P Imagine a full mob of 16 flashgitz firing 32 24" shots a turn along with 4 big shoota's (nob with bigshoota included). Thats pretty damn scarry for only 1 troop choice... no imagine 4 of these. Expensive yes, but hella firepower.

Spleendokta
09-01-2006, 01:03
Heres a few other very cool things you can do with your Ork list. Proxy. :) So, you think the Deathwing is cool? You havnt seen anything until you've seen Teh Deff Wing. Convert up some mega armored nobs, and bam, you got yourself a dead 'ard looking army using the space marine Deathwing rules. (very fluffy, and usually allowed in tournies if everything is explained). How about we use some guard rules to play Orks... the Ork armored company, or as we like to call it the Teh Armored Krumpany. Can you say mad conversion idea's? Again using guard rules, but with extremely orc looted tanks, or even scratch built ones (again scratch built Ork vehicals with enough GW bits is perfectly legal in tournies). These are few of the popular proxies... im sure you or anyone else could think of more. :) Think you can do all this with Tau? Nopes. I also play Tau, but with Orks you never get bored as the possibilities are endless.

Grotsnik
09-01-2006, 01:03
Orks offer a variety of playing styles and more conversion possibilites then any army save Chaos.

Tau are a joke & soon will be the #1 kiddies army w/ the release of their new codex.
That alone is more than enough to keep anyone from playing them. :D

squigsnok
09-01-2006, 14:35
If there's one thing that 7 years of fighting with the giant mutated mushrooms has taught me, it's that shootas are only really worth taking if they're flash gits. it's difficult for me to say that coz i've relentlessly included shoota boyz in my armies since i first bought them way back when. The thing is, a boy with a choppa is one point more and is far superior. I'd take the gits as a mob up mob (or "M.U.M." as you might call it-it sits behind the rest of your hoard and everyone mobs up with it) and give them S5 shootas, and max out on big shootas. This creates a fearsome storm of S5 death which will decimate non power-armoured armies (2+ to wound/kill on T3 models) and also give the emperor's finest something to think about.

I've never used Ard boyz to be honest. I'm more of a fan of skarboyz, as they do the job better in tournaments. My warboss tends to hitch a lift with a passing mob of trukk boys anyway.

The one thing I can't stress enough is how amazing cyborks are. in this edition of the codex you can only take one unit-as a retinue for a painboss, but they are possibly THE most cost effective models in the entire game. high toughness, good strength and an inv. save for a low low price (see how I avoided breaking board rules there? Swish!) Stick them in a trukk and you have the best attacking unit I've ever used.


But these things are for later in the army building process. To start with, I'd so with 2 nice big mobs of boyz complete with nobs and specials. I favour the burna and the big shoota, with rokkits on trakks and tankbustas later, but it's down to your gaming style. The best idea I find is to keep the weapon mix the same (so 3 burnas OR 3 rokkits OR 3 b.shootas) because otherwise you're losing the effectiveness of combined firepower. If it's an assaulting unit give it burnas, a fire support unit give it b. shootas. I tend to keep rokkits in separate Tankbusta units for the +1 armour penetrating., or on trakks for added mobility.

All characters to have the winning power klaw/choppa combo. I've been championing this tactic for years and it really works. Think about it: strike first wth the choppa on the charge if you pass the waaagh check, or last if you need the extra punch of a klaw. It's a sensible choice for unsensible people.

Best o luck anyway, and lets hear no more of this "should I collect Tau?" nonsense.

Squig

charrky
09-01-2006, 15:05
If you've got the cash - go the orks.

They are much more fun to play than Tau - plus the most fun to model with.

RampagingRavener
09-01-2006, 17:17
If there's one thing that 7 years of fighting with the giant mutated mushrooms has taught me, it's that shootas are only really worth taking if they're flash gits. it's difficult for me to say that coz i've relentlessly included shoota boyz in my armies since i first bought them way back when. The thing is, a boy with a choppa is one point more and is far superior. I'd take the gits as a mob up mob (or "M.U.M." as you might call it-it sits behind the rest of your hoard and everyone mobs up with it) and give them S5 shootas, and max out on big shootas. This creates a fearsome storm of S5 death which will decimate non power-armoured armies (2+ to wound/kill on T3 models) and also give the emperor's finest something to think about.

Intresting ideas, the origional idea for the shoota boyz was to take the a small mob (10-12) with maximum number of rokkits (3?) and take potshots at tanks, hopefully drawing away a bit of fire from the advancing CC mobs. Later, the rokkit models could be included in a tank bustas mob.


I've never used Ard boyz to be honest. I'm more of a fan of skarboyz, as they do the job better in tournaments. My warboss tends to hitch a lift with a passing mob of trukk boys anyway.

Hmm, I would have thought the survivability of 'Ard boyx would give them the edge? Skar Boyz seem to me like the unit that gets hit by everything and ripped to bits, but 'Ard boyx might be able to make it through the firestorm? Or am I mistaken?


The one thing I can't stress enough is how amazing cyborks are. in this edition of the codex you can only take one unit-as a retinue for a painboss, but they are possibly THE most cost effective models in the entire game. high toughness, good strength and an inv. save for a low low price (see how I avoided breaking board rules there? Swish!) Stick them in a trukk and you have the best attacking unit I've ever used.

Heh, what are cyborks? They arn't something I've heard of before.


But these things are for later in the army building process. To start with, I'd so with 2 nice big mobs of boyz complete with nobs and specials. I favour the burna and the big shoota, with rokkits on trakks and tankbustas later, but it's down to your gaming style. The best idea I find is to keep the weapon mix the same (so 3 burnas OR 3 rokkits OR 3 b.shootas) because otherwise you're losing the effectiveness of combined firepower. If it's an assaulting unit give it burnas, a fire support unit give it b. shootas. I tend to keep rokkits in separate Tankbusta units for the +1 armour penetrating., or on trakks for added mobility.

Tankbustas get the effects of Tank Hunters? Wow, the rokkits are getting saved for them then, and the trakks. Burnas seem like a good choice in the infantry squads due to them auto-hitting. So, would 1 burna and 2 big shootas work well, or vice versa?


All characters to have the winning power klaw/choppa combo. I've been championing this tactic for years and it really works. Think about it: strike first wth the choppa on the charge if you pass the waaagh check, or last if you need the extra punch of a klaw. It's a sensible choice for unsensible people.

Actually, this was something I thought of myself a couple of hours ago! But, is it worth loosing out on the shootier/more dakka/blasta gun warbosses like to lug around? Bleh, I guess the extra CC versitility is worth loosing out on a BS2 gun.

lilith
09-01-2006, 19:29
Orks are really funny and i think is a little more difficult win with them so you can have too fun when defeat that ugly iron warriors army

downundercadet07
10-01-2006, 04:34
I would suggest playing a few games with more kroot to see if it changes your opinion of the Tau. I know what you mean about the soulless feeling though. Then again, they are, so I guess it fits...

Kradle
10-01-2006, 09:32
Lets see... I went to the GW not so long ago and played with the stores Orks whilst the GW guy played with Tau.

Lets say that my Orks got massacred by the Tau superior firepower.. But as the smoke cleared to reveal one unit of twenty Orks left alive and in combat the light decided to shine.

My one unit of 19 boyz and 1 Nob completly ANNIHILATED over half of the Tau army as it butchered its way from one squad to another. I was only stopped when I tried to power claw the Hammerhead and failed and hence got swamped by all of his remaining Tau warriors!

So Orks have my vote because the little green blighters pack alot of punch and are just so damn fun!!


Kradle

rune
10-01-2006, 09:43
Exactly.. theres two main things here helping the Tau achieve a more soulful appearance:

1)Human Auxiliaries
2)Kroot

Human Aux are SOO fun to convert .. mismatching the human and tau sprues to your desired effect, and Kroot are simply awesome looking with an extremely cool concept of eating other species to gain their traits for survival in hostile climates.. perfect assault troops..

..just drop 'em on a planet and come back a few light years later and .. whalaah, the whole joint should be cleared out for Tau re-modeling ;)

squigsnok
10-01-2006, 14:56
Intresting ideas, the origional idea for the shoota boyz was to take the a small mob (10-12) with maximum number of rokkits (3?) and take potshots at tanks, hopefully drawing away a bit of fire from the advancing CC mobs. Later, the rokkit models could be included in a tank bustas mob.

It's a sound idea (i've used it in 1000 point games) but i find if you're puttin rokkits in non-tankbuster mobs make it a small unit of sluggas. Otherwise they're stuck doing nothin in games against infantry formations, and if (and when) you get into combat, its always nice to have that little extra punch to back you up if you need it. For orks, shootas suck in combat. Compared to joe average guardsman they're good, but in my army, they just don't cut the mustard (and they can't hit it when they shoot either)



Hmm, I would have thought the survivability of 'Ard boyx would give them the edge? Skar Boyz seem to me like the unit that gets hit by everything and ripped to bits, but 'Ard boyx might be able to make it through the firestorm? Or am I mistaken?

NEVER underestimate just how much of a difference S4 makes over S3. It's your choice at the end of the day, though. It sounds like you want the 'ard ladz in, and with an army like orks, you should always go with what your style of play needs. I find ways of keeping my skars alive (usually strategically placed bikers). Remember, I've never used Ard Boyz. They might be almost as good as cyborks...



Heh, what are cyborks? They arn't something I've heard of before.


Read your codex... :D One of the main reasons i can be as evil as I am in games is cyborks are so often overlooked as "just a retinue for a painboss". No one knows that they are the best unit in the whole damn army. Cheap, tough, and ridin' a trukk. What more do you want?



Tankbustas get the effects of Tank Hunters? Wow, the rokkits are getting saved for them then, and the trakks. Burnas seem like a good choice in the infantry squads due to them auto-hitting. So, would 1 burna and 2 big shootas work well, or vice versa?


The Tank Hunter rule was INVENTED for the Tankbustas!!

On weapon choice I don't really know. I've always just used the same weapon in the units. This is mainly coz when i started my orks many moons ago i read a white dwarf article by Grand Warlord Adi Wood where he said "everythin counts in large amounts". It's just somethin that works so I kept with it. I know other ork players who do the 1burna/2big shoota mix and it works for them. You just have to decide whether you want that added flexibility, and lose a little of the punch in combat. Having 9 power weapon attacks in combat from the burna dudes is always a good thing.



Actually, this was something I thought of myself a couple of hours ago! But, is it worth loosing out on the shootier/more dakka/blasta gun warbosses like to lug around? Bleh, I guess the extra CC versitility is worth loosing out on a BS2 gun.

My old boss carried around that very gun for 3 years when i first started playin, along with a power klaw. I just found that replacing the gun with a choppa gave me more CC options on a cheaper boss. He never stood still long enough to shoot it anyway.

Squig

Wolflord Havoc
10-01-2006, 16:09
I originally went for Tau after a long series of wins with my Space Wolves and went for the 'Bluey's' as they were as far from the Space Wolves as possible.

However as a Starting army I would plug for Orks which will be my next army given their scope and the attitude with which you have to use them (i.e damn the casulties and charge!!!)

RampagingRavener
10-01-2006, 17:35
NEVER underestimate just how much of a difference S4 makes over S3. It's your choice at the end of the day, though. It sounds like you want the 'ard ladz in, and with an army like orks, you should always go with what your style of play needs. I find ways of keeping my skars alive (usually strategically placed bikers). Remember, I've never used Ard Boyz. They might be almost as good as cyborks...

Well, I'm willing to swap 'Ards for Skars at the moment, 'Ard boyz were just the first thing that came to mind. A mass of st4 choppa attacks is definatly likely to end most units quickly. A smokescreen with bikers would definatly work though, and most likely they will be in a Battlewagon to give them a bit more protection...but from playing DE, I know that when a transport goes up and all you have is a 5+ or 6+ save, yon don't get many survivors...


My old boss carried around that very gun for 3 years when i first started playin, along with a power klaw. I just found that replacing the gun with a choppa gave me more CC options on a cheaper boss. He never stood still long enough to shoot it anyway.

Good point. Its just going to be a pain trying to find a suitable arm and/or axe that won't look too weedy to work well...any suggestions? I'll be working with the non-mega armoured warboss model for now, with a mega-armour nob powerklaw.

However, to bring up another point which wasn't noticed by anyone, Leman Russ Demolisher-good choice for a looted vehicle? Seems to be, reasonably accurate st10 shell, good armour, and malfunctioning and lurching forward isn't the end of the world as it just brings the gun into range faster. And it isn't a basalisk (which I am not going to use, its become a bit of a cliche in ork armies).

Kradle
11-01-2006, 01:37
Don't forget that looted vehicles have their BS reduced to 2 because its being crewed by Orks. So really its just a matter of what kind of tank you want with what guns.

In my old Ork army i used a looted Predator Destructor and it was a blast! It rarely hit anything but my opponents always spent their turns shooting at it so my boyz got to combat relatively un-scathed! In my new army I don't use tanks (i'd rather spend the points on my ladz) but never underestimate the usefulness of a big target for your enemies to concentrate on.. After all, if your boyz dont make it to combat in large numbers then they have been stripped of their most useful ability.. SWAMPING.. So looted vehicles are a good choice! (in my opinion!)


Kradle

Waaagh
15-01-2006, 15:19
Id say orks if yuo like customising and you have money to spend on them, theyre really unique and fun to plan imo

squigsnok
17-01-2006, 08:57
I know that when a transport goes up and all you have is a 5+ or 6+ save, yon don't get many survivors...


I hate to be the one to break this to you but most orks have a 6+ save. At the moment......