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View Full Version : Lasgun w/ grenade launcher ?



Xarius
30-07-2009, 22:59
why do some (possible more elite like storm troopers, heavy infantry) imperial troops not use underslung grenade launchers e.g. m203 equivilent. have these ever shoen up in any background? The astartes got the random, useless ones, just seems like the guard with the most appropriate weapons would have at some point been given something similar?

Serebrate
30-07-2009, 23:04
Because technology is back-asswards in the forty-first millennium. Combi-weapons do exist, but are mostly limited to Astartes and Traitors (Though some guard officers do get one from time to time)

That, and for storm troopers and hellgun (Or "hot shot lasgun" as they're called now...pfft) is more powerful as it can bore a hole though power armor, instead of grenades which likely would merely scratch it.

JHZ
30-07-2009, 23:46
(Or "hot shot lasgun" as they're called now...pfft)
*slaps Serebrate across the face*
That's Mr. Hot Shot Lasgun to you, sonny. Hellgun is a bastard word invented for 3rd edition and nothing more.


That, and for storm troopers and hellgun is more powerful as it can bore a hole though power armor, instead of grenades which likely would merely scratch it.
Yes, in game terms, but in fluff even a lasgun can pierce power armour, and a grenade can do more than just knock out a lone Marine. It can take out a bunker, frag a whole enemy squad, send out signal flares or smoke grenades, etc.

In Legacy it was said that a normal shotgun was better at killing daemons than a hot shot lasgun, since the pellets caused major tissue damage, incapasitating the possessed body, where as the laser burns, while would have been fatal to a person, did little to the creature, and the only way for the lasgun to take out the daemon was to shove it into its throat and let the overheating weapon explode.

Drop-Trooper
30-07-2009, 23:48
I think it was IA3? maybe 4 the Elysian drop troops got them, sergenats and officers had the option to get them. As thats how i've armed mine i'm hoping they make a re-appearnce in IA... what ever the next one is

Xarius
30-07-2009, 23:56
considering that a vast amount of guard background is fighting traitor guard and similar foes grenade launchers would be hugely effective in the uses JHZ said.

i play smurfs and guard (and orks and ........) and out of the two it made much more sense to give them to the guard but thats usually what gw does:(

sigur
31-07-2009, 00:00
Sure there are underslung grenade launchers (or auxiliary grenade launchers) for pretty much any weapon. It's one of the things GW killed with 3rd edition.

Apart from that, the real answer to the question is: THEY JUST DON'T. Unless someone can come up with a page number from a non-BL publication, there is no other answer. References to real-life military are pointless.

Lord Damocles
31-07-2009, 00:00
They do.


Imperial Armour Volume 4, pg.130

JHZ
31-07-2009, 00:01
Yeah, Elysians got a single shot krak grenade launcher available to some models. Don't know about the benefits of it much, but it would have been nice to see something like that a little more often. Of course, you could model your stock grenade launchers as underslug variants.

And doesn't Inquisitor give you the option to take auxiliary grenade launchers?

Xarius
31-07-2009, 00:10
THEY JUST DON'T

harsh. i wasnt particularly quoting real world stuff though the m203 is a good example but it just seemed to make sense for someone somewhere to have featured them in 40k lore.

starlight
31-07-2009, 00:14
Basically it comes down to the simple fact that 40K is a squad/platoon based game, not an individual level simulator. GW wants a simple beer and pretzels game, which 40K is...


If you want individual/squad level complexity, Necromunda, Inquisitor, etc are far more suitable. :)

Solar_Eclipse
31-07-2009, 00:26
The Jantine stormtroopers use them in The Gaunts Ghosts series.

Grimbad
31-07-2009, 00:50
Now that all guardsmen have grenades, it's just fine to model them as auxilary grenade launchers.

But yeah, Elysians have them.

Lothlanathorian
31-07-2009, 02:39
The ones the Astartes have are anything but worthless.

Condottiere
31-07-2009, 02:48
Might actually be a problem of scale - some bureaucrat thought they would be a waste of money, since they have specialized equipment to deal with such threats. I say bureaucrat, but it might have been a Senate Arms Procurement sub-committee.

MajorWesJanson
31-07-2009, 03:19
Well, the Tanith would have grenade launchers, but the size 5 nut on the launcher doesn't fit the size 3 socket on the rifle. Good job, Munitorum.

precinctomega
31-07-2009, 07:19
*Dusts off memories of distant youth*

Well, back in the Rogue Trader days, before even the 2nd Edition boxed set, there were some rules published in White Dwarf to allow the Imperial Guard (whose first plastic boxed set had just been released to much excitement) to add auxiliary grenade launchers to their lasguns. These could fire frag, krak or smoke grenades but were strictly one-shot affairs.

R.

Memnos
31-07-2009, 07:46
Well, the Tanith would have grenade launchers, but the size 5 nut on the launcher doesn't fit the size 3 socket on the rifle. Good job, Munitorum.

Remember that altering your lasgun is not in accordance with Munitorum legislation 301-B. Please file complaint form 61-B-1013192 to your local munitorum branch if you would like to procure a different weapon.

Imperialis_Dominatus
31-07-2009, 08:09
Also remember that the Commissariat does not look kindly upon those who complain. Any who wish to complain about anything must submit their complaints to the Commissar assigned to their unit or commanding unit and obtain their approval or denial. Denial will prompt the Commissar to submit Denial Form 284-BLAM to the complainer. In triplicate. Like so!

BLAM BLAM BLAM

JHZ
31-07-2009, 08:26
Remember, not all grenades need to be fired from an underslug launcher.
http://www.cfloridaww2museum.org/sitebuilder/images/VE222-395x530.jpg

borithan
31-07-2009, 08:46
why do some (possible more elite like storm troopers, heavy infantry) imperial troops not use underslung grenade launchers e.g. m203 equivilent. have these ever shoen up in any background?Yes they have. Imperial Guard used to be able to issue whole platoons with underslung grenade launchers (called Auxiliary grenade launchers) in 1st ed. They only held one shot for the duration of the battle, and everyone in a squad had to have the same ammunition (frag or krak) and fire at once (10 frag grenades at once just seems... well... overkill, and a pain in the bum to work out with 1st ed area weapons rules), but they did exist. In 2nd ed they were available as special equipment for some characters I think (and in this case they had unlimited ammunition).

CommanderCax
31-07-2009, 11:08
And doesn't Inquisitor give you the option to take auxiliary grenade launchers?

I don't know, but Dark Heresy gives the option for an underslung auxiliary grenade launcher attachable to most basic weapons.

JHZ
31-07-2009, 11:19
Oh, and what about this picture then. That does look like a combi-grenade launcher, and I'm pretty sure that ain't a Marine firing it.

Mannimarco
31-07-2009, 11:29
thats an inquistoral stormtrooper, its from the daemonhunter codex

sadly even with that pic in the daemonhunter codex theres still no combi grenade launcher in the wargear

Voleron
31-07-2009, 12:43
thats an inquistoral stormtrooper, its from the daemonhunter codex

sadly even with that pic in the daemonhunter codex theres still no combi grenade launcher in the wargear

That pic was originally from the Inquisitor rulebook - they just reprinted most of the pics from there with some cropping when they made the DH/WH codecies.

And you could get them in Inquisitor.

starlight
31-07-2009, 16:43
Again...too complex for the level 40K is played at. They exist in other GW games that operate at the required level...

canucklhead
31-07-2009, 18:08
The other point is that currently, grenades are only used to attack vehicles directly, and modify close combat otherwise, so it makes little point to model grenades or delivery systems onto a mini. From GW's viewpoint anyway

Iuris
01-08-2009, 21:33
So, shall we say that while they exist, most guard count themselves happy to get a pair of shoes that actually fit?

Remember, these things are not common in real life armies.

Condottiere
01-08-2009, 21:39
While no-one wants some half-wit spraying the surrounding underbrush with fragmentation grenades, just because he's on the verge of panic, there was a movement, at least in the mid-90s, to upgun the basic infantryman in the US Army, with the introduction of an additional underslung launcher, which at one time was supposed to fire 20mm shells.

So the trend would be to equip proficient troops with such weapons, but ones that you conscript just off any planet might not be so favoured.

bosstroll
02-08-2009, 12:11
The Jantine stormtroopers use them in The Gaunts Ghosts series.

Not the Jantine Patricians, but the 'Royal' Volpone 50th, their elite 10th brigade uses them quite a lot in Necropolis.

"Gilbear and his men cremated a side room with grenades from their underslung launchers"

Gilbear also killed Salvadore Sondar with one, shooting it into his awareness tank through a porthole.

Tema69
02-08-2009, 13:29
If you want to model your lasguns with underslung grenade launchers (like me!), just say that instead of (or in addition to) throwing 'nades, your troops fire them from the hip before charging.
Same effect, but with underslung explosiveness!

I give them to my sergeants (except that now, my sergeants can't have lasguns for some reason!)
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc38/Tema69/P4180156b.jpg
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc38/Tema69/P4170156.jpg

JHZ
02-08-2009, 13:51
I give them to my sergeants (except that now, my sergeants can't have lasguns for some reason!)
Tell me about it...

Tema69
02-08-2009, 19:03
They might as well have told the Space Marines that their sergeants didn't have access to helmets.

I know it makes for some heroic poses and characters, but damn! I want my sergeants armed correctly.

Xarius
02-08-2009, 22:49
i should say back to topic but i completley agree, why would you want to ahave a CC orientated guardsman!

Zoring
03-08-2009, 04:45
Auxilery Grenade Launchers exist in Inquisitor and in Dark Heresey. So thats two non-BL publications.

I imagine some guard units do use them, but for the sake of game, they get only lasguns (although all guard infantry get frag grenades as standard, so represent that as underslung grenade launchers to your hearts content)

Sai-Lauren
03-08-2009, 15:53
Well, back in the Rogue Trader days, before even the 2nd Edition boxed set, there were some rules published in White Dwarf to allow the Imperial Guard (whose first plastic boxed set had just been released to much excitement) to add auxiliary grenade launchers to their lasguns. These could fire frag, krak or smoke grenades but were strictly one-shot affairs.

Yep. Auxilliary Grenade Launchers, platoon option, 10 points per squad (IIRC).

The real reason is that GW don't think people can properly keep track of lots of one-shot items like that (either forgetting to use them, or "accidentally" using them more than once), or indeed want them to.

Even the number of combi-weapons has dropped off in the 5th edition codices.



i should say back to topic but i completley agree, why would you want to ahave a CC orientated guardsman!

Because you're doing a Guard Assault Regiment? Because you want to play against the stereotype of a guard army featuring the minimum number of infantry units and as many tanks as possible?

pookie
03-08-2009, 16:00
They might as well have told the Space Marines that their sergeants didn't have access to helmets.



buts thats FACT! show me the equipment option for a Helmet for a SM Sgt and i'l eat your hat ( i cant eat mine as i dont have one ) :D

the above idea of saying they count as the Grenades used in combat is a great way around any lack of rules for them imo.

Xarius
03-08-2009, 17:20
Because you're doing a Guard Assault Regiment? Because you want to play against the stereotype of a guard army featuring the minimum number of infantry units and as many tanks as possible?

my point was 1 cc guardsman with 9 shooty guardsmen?

Tema69
03-08-2009, 21:14
my point was 1 cc guardsman with 9 shooty guardsmen?

Reminds me of
http://thxforthe.info/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/drive-me-closer.jpg


Anyway... strap all the underbarrel launchers you want to your guardsmen, just claim them to be the way they deliver their 'nades.

Sai-Lauren
04-08-2009, 12:29
my point was 1 cc guardsman with 9 shooty guardsmen?

Ah sorry, thought you were talking generally. :)

I think it kind of goes back to WW1, where officers and sometimes sergeants were issued pistols because they were supposed to be in the thick of fighting, at very short ranges, where pistols are much more useful than rifles.

And possibly even back to the Napoleonic era, although officers had to buy their own weapons.

AndrewGPaul
04-08-2009, 13:09
Actually, IIRC officers were issued pistols because they shouldn't be fighting - they should be leading their men. If they had a rifle, they'd get distracted by shooting at the enemy with the rest of their men. The pistol was for self-defence.

Of course, things might be different in different armies. IIRC, didn't US sergeants in WW2 get tommy-guns, for close assault (presumably because by the time you're close enough to be using it, you need everyone to be shooting)?

Zoring
04-08-2009, 16:02
In WW2 more or less every army tried to issue a Sub-Machinegun to Squad-Leaders and NCO's , MP-40's, Tommy-guns etc. Assault units would be issued them in larger numbers. Some regiments such as the Russian 'Tank-Descent' units were issued entirely with SMGs

In WW1 pistols were used as subsitutes because of the lack of a suitable SMG. Units doing trench raids would be armed with clubs, pistols, grenades and so on. Some pistols such as the German Luger and the Mauser C96 had shoulder stocks which turned them into handy little carbines, not dissimilar to a SMG.

borithan
04-08-2009, 20:27
Actually, IIRC officers were issued pistols because they shouldn't be fighting - they should be leading their men. If they had a rifle, they'd get distracted by shooting at the enemy with the rest of their men. The pistol was for self-defence.Yup... that is at least the theory... now NCOs and officers just carry standard rifles, though I do believe they don't have any of the fancy ones (such as with UGLs).



Of course, things might be different in different armies. IIRC, didn't US sergeants in WW2 get tommy-guns,Hmm... theoretically the US rifle division had vvery few tommy guns indeed. The weapon a squad leader was meant to be equipped with was a standard Garand or an M1 carbine. Certain units did issue tommy guns more widely (Airborne ones, I think, for example), but I am sure it didn't stop soldiers acquiring them for themselves though.

But yes, by 1944 an SMG was the standard weapon for an NCO in both the British and German armies. Don't know about the Russians though (self loading rifles were the choice weapons for NCOs earlier on, if they were able to get their hands on one).

Condottiere
04-08-2009, 23:58
Tradition would have every officer equipped with a pistol, and perhaps pick up a SMG if he gets too close to the fighting. In WWII, American ones also had the option for a carbine.

JHZ
05-08-2009, 00:27
Tradition would have every officer equipped with a pistol, and perhaps pick up a SMG if he gets too close to the fighting. In WWII, American ones also had the option for a carbine.
Richard Winters used a stock M1 Garand, or so Band of Brothers led us to believe.

Condottiere
05-08-2009, 02:14
Current MO is for officers to look as much as the men they lead as possible, to confuse the snipers.

The Garand is a Semi-Automatic, so not entirely slow to fire.

RusVal
05-08-2009, 05:47
The real reason is that GW don't think people can properly keep track of lots of one-shot items like that (either forgetting to use them, or "accidentally" using them more than once), or indeed want them to.


Ah, but the most recent version, the "random ones" mentioned in the OP used by Marines, are not single shot affairs (IIRC). In fact, they can be shot at the same time as the main weapon, just at half the range of a normal GL. Basically, it adds extra ooph to a shot if it is within rapid fire range.

However, the same Marine codex states something along lines that they are particularly rare weapons, and usually only used by commanders (or their equivalent), so if it had ever been in the IG codex, it probably would have only been available to Officers.

AndrewGPaul
05-08-2009, 07:10
Nah, they were available to sergeants inthe Elysian lists in IA 3 and 4.

It used to be a wargear card in 2nd edition, which restricted them to characters (unless any units had it listed as an upgrade option).

JHZ
05-08-2009, 10:15
Didn't some old Terminators have a grenade launcher mounted on the back of their power fists?


Current MO is for officers to look as much as the men they lead as possible, to confuse the snipers.

The Garand is a Semi-Automatic, so not entirely slow to fire.
I just meant that he used a stock infantry rifle instead of a carbine or an SMG.

AndrewGPaul
05-08-2009, 13:57
Yeah, it was an option for Terminator Captains in 1st edition. If you look at the old mini, he's got an aux GL and digilasers on his power fist. I can't remember if it carried over to 2nd edition (possibly you could fudge the Auxiliary Grenade Launcher wargear card to represent this).

borithan
05-08-2009, 14:34
Not only that, but all terminators could be given a grenade pack as equipment when they were first introduced in 1st ed. The grenade launcher as present on the Terminator Captain's glove was a bit different.

Oh, and there was a (one use?) wargear card for a Terminator grenade launcher in 2nd ed.

AndrewGPaul
05-08-2009, 14:48
Oh yes, the grenade harness - two shots, each shot fired a spread of three grenades - pretty much the same as the defnsive grenade launchers on a Rhino or Land Raider (that have since become Smoke Launchers). Then there's the refractor field, teleport homer and improved communicator - there'a s lot of bells and whistles in a Terminator suit. :)

Xarius
05-08-2009, 22:10
interesting as this may be i dont care about RT terminators