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vexa
07-01-2006, 20:49
So I was reading the rules of Necromunda the other day, and something struck my eye there. Many of the rules are similar to those I have heard the ones in the 2nd edition of 40K. So the question is are they? Is Necromunda a shadow of the 2nd edition that still remains here in these times of the 4th edition?

marv335
07-01-2006, 21:11
basicly, yes.
necromunda was written during the time of 2nd ed 40k and has not undergone any significant rules changes. several things have changed (sustained fire dice and flamers setting things on fire have been removed)
but the core rules remain essentially unchanged.

Brother Othorio
07-01-2006, 21:14
yes, there are a fair few minor differences, but for the most part the biggest difference between Necromunda and 40k 2e is the lack of squad coherency and the stunned/knocked down/down & out roll

Gen_eV
07-01-2006, 21:16
Necromunda was effectively a high-detail version of 2nd edition rules.

The rules for pinning, injury tables, climbing/falling, ammo rolls were added in addition to 40K, but very little beyond the vehicle rules were actually removed. Well, in 1st ed. Necromunda at least. As marv335 points out, sustained fire and flamers have been slighlty simplified in the creation of Necromunda:Underhive, but virtually all the original rules were kept.

Which made for the opportunity to have really cool kill-team style battles, where you could just grab a handful of 40K models each and just transfer the stats straight across. Can't come close to doing that these days, since 40K was streamlined so much.

gLOBS
07-01-2006, 21:18
Even with the old rules of necromunda the only differences at all were ammo roles, pinned, and being seriously wounded or flesh wounded.

Man I love necromunda.

vexa
08-01-2006, 09:28
Thanks for your answers everyone. But i really don't understand why they removed some of these rules, especially most of the shooting rules are much better then those in the 4th ed. And ASM's look much better on the paper the the modern AP system. Wonder why they removed them.

Baxx
08-01-2006, 12:23
Vexa, call me cynical but I suspect many of the changes were to do with streamlining the game for a younger audience and to be able to field larger forces without spending the entire day playing them out.

Jo Bennett
08-01-2006, 12:30
It was basically a simplification thing, not requiring the ignorant masses to do mental arithmetic.

vexa
08-01-2006, 12:59
Well have to agree that some of the rules are too complex for modern 40k, especially the flesh wounds and stuff and the close combat would takes ages with those rules and modern armies. But i don't think the shooting rules would slow the game down too much or that they would be too complex. But there's no reason for be to believe that the rules were simplified to attract more kids to play.

Lord Humongous
08-01-2006, 13:01
ASM actually are pretty BAD. If you pay 20+ points for a chaos space marine, he's got to be able to use his full 3+ save on a regualr basis. If the game had ASM's, meq models would have to be cheaper, so you'd have more of them (ug, the painting) or play smaller point vlaue games (no heavy vehicles).
ASM's suck pretty bad even in Necromunda. Why buy mesh armor (5+ save) when it costs as much as having another ganger, and generally gets cut to a 6+ save?

Mind you, I'm a hard core Necromunda fan from WAY back. I own several large gangs and have nasty win / loss ratio. I'm just saying the rules make armor (by and large) not worth the trouble.

Necromunda's shooting rules, on the other hand, are really good. Still, I could see cover saves working as well or better if adpated to the scenary and dynamics of "models eye los"- eg, partial heavy cover vs full heavy cover vs full light cover. In any case, they are WAY to detialed to use in a game with more the a dozen or so models per side, which is why 40K always used a "simpler" system.

Darkseer
08-01-2006, 13:01
I still play the 1st edition of Necromunda, although we adopted the idea of rolling a D3 for numbers of shots instead of the sustained fire dice.

We still use the old flamer rules, simply because they're so much fun!
On a 4+ your opponent is set alight and they run 2D6 in a random direction until the flames go out. Much hilarity often ensues.

vexa
08-01-2006, 13:23
But the thing that I don't like in the AP system is that the weapon is good at killing something or almost useless against some targets. Like no one shoots termies with missile launchers because they get the 2+ save anyway. I'm making some house rules with my friend, who's now in Canada as an exchange student so the testing isn't really working before summer, which combine rules from the Necromunda and 4th edition of 40K. We take those rules we like and those that can be modified to a larger scale game. So it would be less beer & pretzel then 40k but still far less detailed then Necromunda. When they're finished I'll post them to rules development.

big squig
08-01-2006, 19:56
If you want some insight on why some rules were dropped after 2nd ed. Read the 3rd ed rulebook. There are designer's notes in the back that talk about it.

mujadaddy
08-01-2006, 20:40
ASM actually are pretty BAD. If you pay 20+ points for a chaos space marine, he's got to be able to use his full 3+ save on a regualr basis. If the game had ASM's, meq models would have to be cheaper, so you'd have more of them (ug, the painting) or play smaller point vlaue games (no heavy vehicles).
What you're not bringing up is the fact that they DROPPED the cost in points of everything since 2nd Edition.... When the Chaos Codex for 2nd was released, a base Lord was 90 points... a bloodthirster was 300 points... and a lascannon was +45 points... (not to mention demonic saves were 4+ inv.)

A 1500 point 2nd Edition force = a 1000 point 4th Edition force

They crunched everything down... sure you can run a 500 point battle in a long lunch hour, but that USED TO BE a 1000 point battle :rolleyes:

Sir_Turalyon
09-01-2006, 09:58
But i really don't understand why they removed some of these rules, especially most of the shooting rules are much better then those in the 4th ed. And ASM's look much better on the paper the the modern AP system


2nd edition rules were very detailed but not very fast, designed for much smaller games - more combat patrol then today's battle. When players started using armies hundered strong, games went too slow.

TWB
09-01-2006, 10:26
ASM actually are pretty BAD. If you pay 20+ points for a chaos space marine, he's got to be able to use his full 3+ save on a regualr basis. If the game had ASM's, meq models would have to be cheaper, so you'd have more of them (ug, the painting) or play smaller point vlaue games (no heavy vehicles).
ASM's suck pretty bad even in Necromunda. Why buy mesh armor (5+ save) when it costs as much as having another ganger, and generally gets cut to a 6+ save?

Mind you, I'm a hard core Necromunda fan from WAY back. I own several large gangs and have nasty win / loss ratio. I'm just saying the rules make armor (by and large) not worth the trouble.

Necromunda's shooting rules, on the other hand, are really good. Still, I could see cover saves working as well or better if adpated to the scenary and dynamics of "models eye los"- eg, partial heavy cover vs full heavy cover vs full light cover. In any case, they are WAY to detialed to use in a game with more the a dozen or so models per side, which is why 40K always used a "simpler" system.

The only problem with the SaveModifiers was that too many guns in Necromunda had a High modifier, whilst your stubbers, autoguns and such are all fine, Las weapons get a -1 (as was always the way back in the day) and then any STR4 weapon (read bolters) or hand-to-hand hit gets a -1 mod, STR5 gets a -2 and so on, with very little effort a gang would be able to field 2-3 capable of ignoring even carapace armour, this is the Glass half empty view though.
The glass is half full view says, that the 10 man squad fielding 2-3 "anti armour" models has 7-8 Models who give you a save, and if (after all of the ways you can avoid getting shot at or hit in a necromunda) you do get hit, perhaps the 5+ save is a nice little piece of extra insurance.