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mikepm07
31-07-2009, 22:43
So I've proxied a few games with High Elves and am seriously considering purchasing an army. However, my friend who plays Dark Elves is practically at the point of refusing to play me. I'm taking a themed Sapphery list with an Arch Mage, level 2, BSB, and two units of 14 Swordmasters, some Spearman, Archers, Ellyrian Reavers, Eagles, and RBT's. He seems to think there is absolutely no way he can compete with Swordmasters, and that High Elves are just a better version of Dark Elves.

How do I convince him this is not the case? With the Ring of Hotek alone my magic phase will most likely be neutered or brought to an ineffective level. With a decent amount of shooting and Blackguard with ASF the Swordmasters could be removed as well.

What do you guys think? Am I taking a list that skews the balance horribly so? If not, what would you suggest a DE player do to crack my list?

Mullitron
31-07-2009, 23:08
Black guard with asf banner should give sword masters a run for their money, your list is nice and balanced as far as i can see. Dark elves are considered one of the stronger lists these days and are more than capable of taking on thier high elf bretheren. It will be a bloody match up as both lists dish out alot of damage but cant take it. Personaly i love the chance to play the two just because of fluff reasons.

Peachtacular
31-07-2009, 23:58
I suggest your friend be introduced to his own repeater xbows.....

Stinkfoot
01-08-2009, 00:03
Though I do agree with your friend generally, your list isn't terribly cheesy and he could probably make something that was balanced to it.

As far as dealing with Swordmasters specifically, you friend should shoot them. Two units of crossbowmen will give your T3 5+ save troops a lot of trouble.

Lordy
01-08-2009, 00:06
Dark Riders > Ellyrian Reavers
Harpies > Great Eagles
Black Guard with ASF banner > Swordmasters

Ring of Hotek + Pendand of Kaleth > everything

It is a pretty good match up for both armies this, in favour of the Dark Elves slightly i feel, i don't know what your friend is complaining about, ok the ASF army wide rule is abit lame but he should be able to handle it with Dark Elves.

decker_cky
01-08-2009, 00:24
Although one thing is that DE's bonus only applies in protracted combats, while the HE bonus of ignoring panic is pretty awesome.

And swordmasters are easy for DE to deal with. They can mince the unit with their shooting pretty quickly. Shooting to deal with them IS pretty essential though.

nzdarkelf
01-08-2009, 00:41
Black guard with asf banner should give sword masters a run for their money, your list is nice and balanced as far as i can see. Dark elves are considered one of the stronger lists these days and are more than capable of taking on thier high elf bretheren. It will be a bloody match up as both lists dish out alot of damage but cant take it. Personaly i love the chance to play the two just because of fluff reasons.

Yep Black Guard will chop thru Swordsmasters with ease. The reroll to hit every turn, with two attacks, will be to hard to stand up to. Plus with the ASF banner he can afford to be out manouvered by your cavalry as well.

He could also get good results with a large Spearmen block, 7 models wide, with an assassin and the Banner of Murder. Presuming the Spearmen take the charge, your 5 (standard rank width), Swordmasters will be fighting 14 models. The assassin will go first even if you have characters. If he has tooled him with an extra hand weapon and Rune of Khaine for +D3 attacks he will have between 5 and 7 attacks (with either an extra +1 or with Killing Blow if in range of a Cauldron), that can be rerolled on the 1st turn, needing 3+ to hit. So he can probably expect to hit with all but maybe one of his attacks. Being Str 4 he will need 3+ to wound. Give him Black Lotus and any 1's to wound can be rerolled. So he will probably inflict a min of 3-4 wounds (with a bad clutch of dice). With armour piercing from the banner there will be no armour saves. At this stage you will be able to reflect on why Phoenix Guard (4+ ward) are so good.

This doesn't leave a lot left in your front rank to slice thru the Spearmen - which they will. Four attacks needing 3+ to hit can probably expect to get 3 hits, which should mostly convert to unsavable wounds, unless that Cauldron is in range and he has elected to use the 5+ ward save ability.

So you guys will have about the same wounds caused for combat res, but his entire 2nd rank (plus maybe a fig or two in the front) will still be left to fight. With rerolls to hit in the 1st turn even on 4+, 7 models will get 5 hits. This works out at 2+1/2 wounds, with only a 6+ save. So quite possibly 2 more Swordsmasters will bite the dust. The Spearmen will win Combat Res, and probably a combat of attrition as well.

The assassin can be a nasty surprise epecially against low Toughness and Armour. Of course the Banner of Balance would be a very good counter taking away Hatred.

The above Unit of 28 D E Spearmen with assassin and Banner compares well points wise with a unit of 20 Swordsmasters with Banner of Balance. And being made of plastic they are a lot easier on the wallet.

Stinkfoot
01-08-2009, 00:51
I don't have my rulebook handy, but I believe the swordmasters would still strike first while charging yeah? If both sides ASF and one side is charging, charging overrides initiative. At least, I've long played it that way... In any event, assassins are a gamble and if that same unit described above were to get into a fight with Spearelves the assassin would likely die in the first round of combat to a bunch of strength 3 attacks.

Lordy
01-08-2009, 00:59
Swordmasters are Initiative 5, Black Guard are Initiative 6 so the Black Guard strike first, only Dragon Princes + Phoenix Guards have Initiative 6 for High Elves outside of characters.

Signius
01-08-2009, 03:23
I don't have my rulebook handy, but I believe the swordmasters would still strike first while charging yeah? If both sides ASF and one side is charging, charging overrides initiative. At least, I've long played it that way... In any event, assassins are a gamble and if that same unit described above were to get into a fight with Spearelves the assassin would likely die in the first round of combat to a bunch of strength 3 attacks.

The HE FAQ states that the ASF deletes all other factors except initiative. If two ASF units come into contact only initiative matters, not charging or great weapons, etc. However this does seem rather arbitrary to me, so if your group doesn't take the GWFAQs as gospel then it shouldn't be a problem to house rule it.

danny7865
01-08-2009, 22:43
I think that against the dark elves the ring of corin is priceless.As are spearmen.They are perfect unit to beat any delf units without ASF. I usually wait until the BG have charged/been charged before using the ring in the magic phase.Also spearmen negate the usefulness of the POK.
Think high elves can out shoot the dark elves with curse of arrow attraction..... But i'm a helf player .....

Condottiere
01-08-2009, 22:56
You have to be able to successfully cast that spell, and still avoid getting doubles.

It's obvious that the DE player needs a little more experience with his army book, and to try out some combinations to see how they work out. If necessary, introduce him to the appropriate online tactical forums.

danny7865
01-08-2009, 23:49
It is 6 + to cast on two dice its easily do able. But i agree about getting him more experienced with his book and that should improve the quality of games for the both of you :)

King_Pash
02-08-2009, 02:03
In my opinion, the DA have a better match up against HE than HE vs. DE. DE get to re-roll all hits in combat. That is quite nasty and even though HE get to re-roll panic tests (yeay..) it's not a close enough match up. Plus, DA have a lot of units and abilities that are as good or better than HE. If your friend is complaining about DE it's because he doesn't know how to use them properly. Get him to play another several dozen games against HE and he'll soon realise that he doesn't have as much to complain about as he thinks he does.

Sarah S
02-08-2009, 02:40
Everything High Elves can do, Dark Elves can do better.

The Dark Elf player must be just awful.

Dark14
02-08-2009, 05:23
both armies can counter each other very easily. ASF will kill DE but with a unit of asf BG will be unstopable. Also Hydras will run through you. Either one can out magic/shoot the other to its a good match up if both players are equal....or ones not a complete noob.

Condottiere
02-08-2009, 05:37
Point for point, Dark Elves are just superior to High Elves.

However, let's call it inexperience, since you do need a basic idea of what your troops are capable of.

isidril93
02-08-2009, 11:54
Point for point, Dark Elves are just superior to High Elves.

However, let's call it inexperience, since you do need a basic idea of what your troops are capable of.

their not that superior...just slightly...not like DOC vs O&G superior

Von Wibble
02-08-2009, 13:24
Looking at each of the areas of the game, as someone who uses both armies.

Movement and Manouevre

Both armies are M5. Both have access to M9 cavalry. However, Dark elves get this as a core choice, and also have access to harpies, whilst if high elves want any cavalry they have to use up a special choice. Hatred forces pursuit and dark elves have some frenziers so the dark elf army can be baited, but overall the advantage is definately with the dark elves.

Shooting

Both armies have the woeful RBT, and then high elves have the worst archery unit in the game making them imo one of teh bottom 5 armies for shooting in the game. Dark elves meanwhile have repeater crossbows which are actually very good - only range as a weakness. Yes the high elves can use curse of arrow attraction - but that spell really requires major concentration of firepower to do more damage than just throwing out a magic missile. Dark elves get the better deal here with chillwind. Again, advantage dark elves.

Magic

Dark elves have lots of power dice and the really powerful sacrificial dagger and ring of hotek. High elves have +1 to dispel, drain magic, and some nice bound items. I don't consider either army better than the other.

Combat - infantry

Swordmasters beat black guard - until the black guard get ASF banner. And putting an assassin with spearman units means they will really put the hurt on anything going. Without assassins the high elves would own this phase but with them its a lot closer. Using tailored lists, definate advantage dark elves. In a tournament scenario, slight advantage high elves.

Combat -cavalry

ASF matters less here, though it means COK are beaten convincingly by swordmasters and white lions of course. On charge dragon princes have an extra attack but -1S and no hatres, and -1S on the mount. No stupidity though. High elves also have 2 chariots, both better than the dark elf equivalent, and the extra special choices to field more. Advantage high elves.

Combat - Characters

Obviously the same profile;) But some decent protection from POK and hatred combined - hatred applying to mounts is also very useful. A far better selection of magic weapons and armour, with a few standout items in the high elf book such as talisman of loec. Hard not to go with dark elves here though

Other

High elves get the emporer dragon - but dark elves get hatred on their own dragon. Cauldron of blood and Hydra are also choices I haven't even mentioned up to now.

Overall - in a tailored list situation I go with Dark elves 4 in 5 times. In a more balanced list 3 in 5. (Daemons vs O+G its more like 19 out of 20 ;) )

orlanth1000
04-08-2009, 02:37
All I can say is Shade deathstar......

Draconian77
04-08-2009, 06:11
Looking at each of the areas of the game, as someone who uses both armies.

Movement and Manouevre

Both armies are M5. Both have access to M9 cavalry. However, Dark elves get this as a core choice, and also have access to harpies, whilst if high elves want any cavalry they have to use up a special choice. Hatred forces pursuit and dark elves have some frenziers so the dark elf army can be baited, but overall the advantage is definately with the dark elves.

You say that like it matters, once he has filled his core with 20x Archers like most HE armies do he will have the special slots to spare...:rolleyes:

Magic

Dark elves have lots of power dice and the really powerful sacrificial dagger and ring of hotek. High elves have +1 to dispel, drain magic, and some nice bound items. I don't consider either army better than the other.

The really powerful Sacrificial Dagger and Ring of Hotek don't combo too well though. :D Either they will have good offensive magic but pretty poor anti-magic or they will have lots of anti-magic meaning that dominating the other phases should be easier. I definately consider the HE to have the advantage here. (Cheaper magic items help(pd, spell selection, scrolls, stones), alos; Teclis, the Banner of Sorcery and the Banner of the World Dragon)

Combat - infantry

Swordmasters beat black guard - until the black guard get ASF banner. And putting an assassin with spearman units means they will really put the hurt on anything going. Without assassins the high elves would own this phase but with them its a lot closer. Using tailored lists, definate advantage dark elves. In a tournament scenario, slight advantage high elves.

Seeing more than 1 Assassin at a game is rare if we are talking about 2000~2250pts. It should be noted that the Banner of Balance also takes a lot of the the sting out of an Assassins strike. Good summary though.

Combat -cavalry

ASF matters less here, though it means COK are beaten convincingly by swordmasters and white lions of course. On charge dragon princes have an extra attack but -1S and no hatres, and -1S on the mount. No stupidity though. High elves also have 2 chariots, both better than the dark elf equivalent, and the extra special choices to field more. Advantage high elves.

Cold One Knights are Light-Heavy-Cavalry. Not very good against HE's I agree. Is the Lion Chariot really better than the CoC?

Combat - Characters

Obviously the same profile;) But some decent protection from POK and hatred combined - hatred applying to mounts is also very useful. A far better selection of magic weapons and armour, with a few standout items in the high elf book such as talisman of loec. Hard not to go with dark elves here though.

Right...but you can only have the Pendant on 1 guy. Hatred+GW is almost as cheap and deadly as ASF+Great Weapon. :D Can't the HE's build a near invulrenable challenger themselves? (Only magic attacks can hurt him, magic weapons count as mundane equivs?) I don't think either have the advantage, although I would say that most HE players take lots of magic users so it certainly is hard to compare. (Oh, and the +D6 CR BsB of course)
Other

High elves get the emporer dragon - but dark elves get hatred on their own dragon. Cauldron of blood and Hydra are also choices I haven't even mentioned up to now.

Just bear in mind that the Emperor Dragon is harder to shoot down, that can be decisive.

Overall - in a tailored list situation I go with Dark elves 4 in 5 times. In a more balanced list 3 in 5. (Daemons vs O+G its more like 19 out of 20 ;)

I think thats pretty accurate for no-SC 2k ranges. If SC's are allowed it will probably shift a little, as the DE special characters are trash(for the pts cost) and the HE ones are very good.

Just wanted to add my thoughts to that. It was a good post.

TheSanityAssassin
04-08-2009, 06:26
As for the Lion Chariot question I would say yes. You're looking at d6+6 S5 attacks compared to d6+3 S5 and 2 S4 for the CoC....if they stay in combat that gets to be an even bigger difference, as you're still at 6s5 compared to 4s4 attacks, and the HE mounts get WS5 as well. You also have a bigger charge range and no stupidity.

The dark elves get higher toughness, a better save and 1 better leadership, which is all well and good, but a cannon ball or dwarf bolt thrower will still pop it in one shot, and LD isn't THAT huge on a chariot....

I find that White Lion chariots are an essential part of most High Elf armies as well, but CoC's just get outclassed by most of the Dark Elf book....not a bad unit, but there are better things to buy. That said, it is 40 pts cheaper, which is about fair, and T5 in an elf army is invaluable.

Cathel
04-08-2009, 10:51
However, my friend who plays Dark Elves is practically at the point of refusing to play me. ...SNIP... He seems to think there is absolutely no way he can compete with Swordmasters, and that High Elves are just a better version of Dark Elves.
I beg to differ, my Druchii regularly smash my opponents HE. It's bloody due to ASF and needs some different playing than vs other opponents. But in the end hatred helps a lot.

How do I convince him this is not the case? With the Ring of Hotek alone my magic phase will most likely be neutered or brought to an ineffective level. With a decent amount of shooting and Blackguard with ASF the Swordmasters could be removed as well.

No to the RoH thing, casting magic missiles with 2 dice is not very dangerous.
Yes to the BG / shooting answer vs swordmasters.


What do you guys think? Am I taking a list that skews the balance horribly so? If not, what would you suggest a DE player do to crack my list?
Nope, your list seems fine.
Same as vs all HE lists:
Shooting, ASF BG, Hydra, COC, DR


As far as dealing with Swordmasters specifically, you friend should shoot them. Two units of crossbowmen will give your T3 5+ save troops a lot of trouble.
Amen to that, they die like flies.


Dark Riders > Ellyrian Reavers
Harpies > Great Eagles
Black Guard with ASF banner > Swordmasters
Yes, no, yes. Harpies are having a difficult time in my experience, no hatred, low S, low WS.


I find that White Lion chariots are an essential part of most High Elf armies as well, but CoC's just get outclassed by most of the Dark Elf book....not a bad unit, but there are better things to buy. That said, it is 40 pts cheaper, which is about fair, and T5 in an elf army is invaluable.
The T5 and high AS is something that helps a lot. You do impact hits, get the remaining HE to strike back (vs T5 and 4+AS) and than do your attacks.
Granted the following rounds are harder, but it's more survivable than all other stuff (except Hydra). And as almost everything (except Phoenix guard) Lion chariots die to massed shooting.

TheDarkDaff
04-08-2009, 11:21
Dark Elves should win the movement battle due to core Fast Cav, Harpies and the fact they are cheaper (so you should have more units on the table). That said the Dark Elves really struggle against big units of High Elf Spearmen and even Lothern Sea Guard become useful. Basic Magic Missles also pretty much ignore the Ring so they don't like low level mages spamming fireballs at them. Lore of fire/death and Metal work best against Dark Elves in my experience.

That said for the Dark Elves to work against High Elves they need a few things. Cheap small units of Dark Riders and Harpies to control movement. ASF Black Guard to stand up to the High Elf special combat units. Repeater Crossbowmen to thin out (or wipe out) high elf combat units. Some Bolt Throwers to deal with any Dragons that pop up. Hydra to draw fire and use it's breath weapon. Some Assassins to help your units survive (do not buy Manbane!)

Dark Elves can safely ignore Manticores, Executioners and Witch Elves. They just don't work unless an Assassin is babysitting them. Corsairs are ok if they have Handbows in units of 10 and don't get into combat unless they have an Assassin. Cold one Knights are ok as their Armour should help them a bit but they should avoid Swordmasters, White Lions and Spearmen (at least head on). Chariots are good if they avoid Spearmen head on. Shades are iffy as they can't afford to get into combat. Their lack of armour means if they get hit they will fold and all it takes is a fireball to write off the unit unless you have made a deathstar with MR3.

Von Wibble
04-08-2009, 16:57
To answer a couple of points made in the last few posts

Draconian - I play 2500 generally and special characters are allowed but rarely actually used. Have to add Shadowblade is a perfect counter to teclis.

The one point I disagree on is the one about High elf extra special choices countering out dark elf core harpies and dark riders. The fact is ellyrian reavers are not as good as dark riders - hatred means dark riders can actually beat enemy light infantry and light cavalry with ease, and an army that takes 2 units loses its advantages in special. And 2 assassins can be assumed when list tailoring (if not 3) - one of the lists I run has just 2 sorceresses, one of which is L4, and then 3 assassins for combat power and spearmen, asf black guard, hydra, fast cav, crossbows. Its only problem is heavy cav (lore of metal taken by high sorceress helps).

Absolutely right about the sacrificial dagger + ring of hotek. Only use 1 in a game unless you have a plan. Both are great items though.

Cathel - Harpies role in facing high elves is NOT to actually kill anything (save overrunning it) apart from RBT. What they do really well is block chariot and dragon prince charges, and add to control of the movement phase.

EvC
04-08-2009, 17:04
Plus you can fly them behind the enemy to kill stuff that runs into them- no such luxury with Great Eagles.

I would actually rate Cold One Chariots as being better than Lion Chariots, even without considering that Lion chariots cost 1.5x as much. It pretty much says it all about the disparity between the two books that the cost of the Lion Chariot is clsoer to that of the Hydra than the Cold One Chariot...

Falkman
04-08-2009, 20:03
Absolutely right about the sacrificial dagger + ring of hotek. Only use 1 in a game unless you have a plan. Both are great items though.
The Ring can be pretty good if you give it to a Master on a Dark Pegasus and fly him behind enemy lines.
That way he can disrupt enemy mages without ruining your own magic phase.
He can also double up as a warmachine/skirmish/light cav hunter.

Cathel
04-08-2009, 20:20
I would actually rate Cold One Chariots as being better than Lion Chariots, even without considering that Lion chariots cost 1.5x as much. It pretty much says it all about the disparity between the two books that the cost of the Lion Chariot is closer to that of the Hydra than the Cold One Chariot...
It's faster, does not suffer from stupidity and has 6 WS5 S5 attacks each round instead of 2 WS3 and 2 WS4 S4 attacks.

@von Wibble:
I agree on the harpies, just got to that because of the comparison harpies-eagles. Did take that to literal.

danny7865
04-08-2009, 23:03
I always get annoywed that as a high elf player fortune is fickle has been given to dark elves in the form of an incredibly cheap ring which can't really be stopped unless you hazarda spell like vauls unmaking at it. I think that the Dark elves do have a slight advantage but masses of spearmen can wreck a dark elf players day

Draconian77
05-08-2009, 00:04
Draconian - I play 2500 generally and special characters are allowed but rarely actually used. Have to add Shadowblade is a perfect counter to Teclis.

Heh, true. I guess that's one of his uses, but I generally don't like to talk with list tailoring in mind. Teclis is good against anybody, Shadowblade, not so much.

The one point I disagree on is the one about High elf extra special choices countering out dark elf core harpies and dark riders. The fact is ellyrian reavers are not as good as dark riders - hatred means dark riders can actually beat enemy light infantry and light cavalry with ease, and an army that takes 2 units loses its advantages in special.

Hmm, how many special units do you take though? I'm sure a unit of Ellyrian Reavers wouldn't cause problems...
The Dark Riders are better, but unfortunately they still aren't great against HE because of the SoA. To be honest, shooting and magic from both armies should see these vulrenable support units wiped out fairly quickly.

And 2 assassins can be assumed when list tailoring (if not 3) - one of the lists I run has just 2 sorceresses, one of which is L4, and then 3 assassins for combat power and spearmen, asf black guard, hydra, fast cav, crossbows. Its only problem is heavy cav (lore of metal taken by high sorceress helps).

Like I said, I don't really like to talk with list tailoring in mind. In most games, more than 1 Assassin really is rare.

Cathel - Harpies role in facing high elves is NOT to actually kill anything (save overrunning it) apart from RBT. What they do really well is block chariot and dragon prince charges, and add to control of the movement phase.

Can't you tactically wheel when charging Skirmishers though? I doubt they could block charges successfully if that's the case. March blocking on the other hand...does any unit do this better than Harpies? (Hmm, probably Furies...Harpies are an honourable 2nd then. :D

Pink letters.

Dark Apostle197
05-08-2009, 01:31
The Ring can be pretty good if you give it to a Master on a Dark Pegasus and fly him behind enemy lines.
That way he can disrupt enemy mages without ruining your own magic phase.


Well, if its messing up their mages, it is also protecting the same mages from the Dark Elf magic...

limkopi
05-08-2009, 04:53
@Draconian,

Yes you can tactically wheel, but sometimes, there is just no space, and even then, who says the Harpies are gonna hold?

Draconian77
05-08-2009, 05:37
Flying Ld6 models tend to exit the board rapidly if they flee from charges, they'll only be pulling that trick once. :D

gaiaterra
05-08-2009, 12:07
I like giving a lvl 2 sorceress the sacrificial dagger, Pearl of Infinite Bleakness and a unit of 20 spearmen I lovingling called unprocessed power dice. I stand her in the mddle of the front line and and have a unit of ASF blackguard carrying the ring of Hotek within 12" of the spearmen but 13" away from my sorceress. When the magic phase rolls round my 185pts hero casts in a way that puts a number of lord level mages to shame and my my oponent avoids firing offensive spells back at my easly killed units because of the ring.

And every now and the Malekith turns up on a Cold One in a 9 man unit of COKs he moves out to the flank, waits and does not charge as he is far more useful as an Mobile Arcanum Gun Emplacement (MAGE). I just love opponents that assume I will be doing my upmost best to get the Witchking into combat and set up there lines for a charge that almost never comes.

Mullitron
05-08-2009, 12:20
And every now and the Malekith turns up on a Cold One in a 9 man unit of COKs he moves out to the flank, waits and does not charge as he is far more useful as an Mobile Arcanum Gun Emplacement (MAGE). I just love opponents that assume I will be doing my upmost best to get the Witchking into combat and set up there lines for a charge that almost never comes.

Isnt that unit a bit expensive for that tho? Iam aware malekith isnt someone like archaon who can charge into pretty much any combat and be pretty comfortable winning, but hes hardly a weak fighter. Also if the units not going into combat why dont you take 5 coldone knights instead of 9? Iam not saying your wrong iam just curious as to why?

Von Wibble
05-08-2009, 12:55
Draconian - On the special thing - usually my high elf armies have a lot of the special choices used. 2 chariots, 2 x dragon princes, swordmasters, white lions - that's 6. I just don't have room for reavers or shadow warriors.

I have tried ring of hotek on a flier, keeping him away from my mages. But the problem is that if his mages are within 12" of the ring, chances are his army is, meaning your offensive spells are scuppered. Its OK if you only intend to cast buffs on your units for a couple of turns, but then once your buffed units are in combat they are back in the range of its effects. Except on a huge table in a praticularly large battle, I will not go for ring of hotek AND a strong offensive magic phase.

gaiaterra -with the pearl isn't it a big risk? After all, you can't flee charges, and its not like panic is that likely to affect you. Unless you are going mad with the use of the dagger of course - my own approach is to attempt to cast spells with one less dice than I normally would and throw in the extra dice if the attempt fails by 2-3. Less chance of miscasts and the spell attempt can work without its use.

gaiaterra
05-08-2009, 12:55
When I first started using it I thought the same, but it works, the nine COKs make a perfect shield in the shooting phase, the unit is all but immune to most magical threats, and i has a decent threat range and a nice combat hit.

The set up and use of the unit wrong foots the oponnent, its an obvious close combat threat, your oponent has to set up his lines to deal with it and you can not ignore the close comabt threat of a unit like that, because if you do you will be punished. So you let him prepare his defence and then use the Witchking;s best aspet, his magic, to deal the damage along with your supercharged hero mages and missile weapons. You dominate the magic phase, kill stuff with rbts and rxbs, deny the enemy the chance to kill your general and have back up options just in case.

gaiaterra
05-08-2009, 13:16
gaiaterra -with the pearl isn't it a big risk? After all, you can't flee charges, and its not like panic is that likely to affect you. Unless you are going mad with the use of the dagger of course - my own approach is to attempt to cast spells with one less dice than I normally would and throw in the extra dice if the attempt fails by 2-3. Less chance of miscasts and the spell attempt can work without its use.

I cast normally and the overcharge the spell in most situations (except when I have a one in my initial roll), I force my oponent to use up dispel dice and can still come out on top. I have found that you can't play conservatively with the Druchii and at 7pts per spearman, life is cheap. They are far more useful to me in the magic phase than anywhere else. Yes it's a risky tactic destroying my own unit, but most DE spearmen have little staying power, they are weak and will most likely lose combat in the end anyway, so I kill them myslef and use their deaths to do huge amounts of damage to my enemeis using the Dark Lore.

willowdark
05-08-2009, 13:18
Can't you tactically wheel when charging Skirmishers though? I doubt they could block charges successfully if that's the case. March blocking on the other hand...does any unit do this better than Harpies? (Hmm, probably Furies...Harpies are an honourable 2nd then.

Draconian beat me to it. Drat! :)

yes, tactical wheeling is a big liability for Harpies, while the single base of the eagle is a big advantage because chargers align to you. And as Draconian said, Harpies can flee from a charge, but once they start fleeing they rarely stop.

It's also worth noting that while Harpies collectively have more wounds than an eagle they only need to take 2 wounds from shooting to take a forced panic check, which they'll likely fail. Again, having a single base is a big advantage for an Eagle.

Also, HE rely on redirecting considerably less than DE do. DE are squishy with low AS's just like HE, but with ASF HEs can take a charge and still fight on their own terms. HE have the luxury of fighting aggressively, getting into combat as quickly as possible. DE almost always have to fight on their feet, delaying combat. Since HE cav and chariots are more reliable, not Stupid, and have a faster charge range: advantage HE.

This lesser reliability on redirecting is also why HE really don't suffer from not having Fast Cav as Core. And although Harpies are core, on average you'll see as many Eagles in HE armies as you see Harpies.

EvC
05-08-2009, 13:56
You guys really aren't playing Harpies right. If you were worried about losing 55 points, then you wouldn't be sacrificing them to the enemy in the first place, would you? Furthermore it just requires the smallest amount of planning to ensure that the direction the Harpies will flee in will be favourable, and you can even have them flee in a direction that will probably keep them within 12" of your general, meaning they very likely to pass their rally check.

Two wounds to cause a panic check? Are you nuts? In that case you do a little dance because your opponent has wasted his firepower to shoot at your -1 to hit throwaway unit, rather than the rest of your T3 army that doesn't have -1 to hit. Again, keep them near your general until you're ready to unleash them and they are very unlikely to run. LD6 is hardly a guaranteed fail anyway, if it takes 2 turns for them to flee off the board, they have a good chance of passing one rally check.

It may be true (I don't think it is in my experience, especially since GW make it so hard to get Eagle models) that you'll see as many eagles as you see units of Harpies, but Harpies, if used correctly are an absolute nightmare. Eagles are good, certainly, but they aint a 55 point core unit that can "crossfire" enemy units and grab table quarters unless the enemy goes out of his way to damage them.


It's faster, does not suffer from stupidity and has 6 WS5 S5 attacks each round instead of 2 WS3 and 2 WS4 S4 attacks.

Yes, it does. Are there any negatives that you've conveniently left out here in this very objective discussion? ;)

lakissov
05-08-2009, 16:08
Harpies useless against HE? You must be joking. HE, in their movement phase, have the advantage of speed (because their damage-dealing units, i.e. DP, have higher speed than our damage-dealing units, i.e. COK & Hydrae). To negate this advantage, DE need an advantage in manoeuvrability, and harpies give exactly this advantage. If I have 2-5 units of harpies in an army, then I really don't hesitate for even a second when sacrificing one for the purpose of either blocking a unit of DP or forcing it to pursue my fleeing harpies into a position where my damage-dealer will hit their flank. Harpies are priceless in DE army - they give this redirecting advantage against fast armies (HE, WoC), and many other advantages against other armies.

On the initial question: I'd say, DE have a slight advantage over HE in a face to face match-up (assuming no tailoring). Against all-comers, DE advantage is more than just slight. If your friend doesn't know how to fight against HE, advise him to visit druchii.net - it's a good place for any druchii newcomer to learn more about his army and using it against the hated kin.

willowdark
05-08-2009, 16:17
@ EvC: You're contradicting yourself. If Harpies are a nightmare that can crossfire and grab table quarters, than why should I do a little dance when my opponent shoots at them?

Cheap throw away units are what you shoot at first, that's why they're so good. Screens, fast cav and flying redirectors have to be eliminated first before you can engage the main fighting force. The point is to kill them sooner than the enemy wants them to be, before they can do the job they are there to do.

And I don't see how fleeing from panic and taking 2 turns to rally and then sit there for a turn is better than the single model Eagle that won't flee in the first place.

And Harpies scatter like fanatics. Not literally of course, but it is in their nature that they will fly away from the general, since DE are a movement superiority army it is easy for units to get away from the general. Even my PegLvl4 uses her Harpies to usher her across the table to a good cover position for the familiar, but once she finds it the Harpies go off on their own. Not that I've never had Harpies take a rally or a panic test with my General's ld, but I go without it more often than not.

Ld6 is clearly worse than ld8 on an eagle.

willowdark
05-08-2009, 16:20
@ Lakissov: No one said that Harpies were worthless, only that a direct comparison to Eagles doesn't yield a decisive advantage to them.

decker_cky
05-08-2009, 16:22
BTW, a liability with harpies is in multiple charges too. Considering many units have frontages of 120mm or so, add an inch to that and a tactical charge can tack on a multiple charge unless the DE player was very careful.

Draconian77
05-08-2009, 16:33
I think EVC got the wrong idea, I'm not saying that Harpies are bad, only that Eagles are just as good. Yes, they aren't pseudo-core choices like the Harpies are, but they are less risky to use.

As an aside, what do people make of the Stardragon vs Black Dragon with Hatred? Off the top of my head, I'm guessing that the Stardragon still comes out on top, or would you say it's dependent on the opposition?

EvC
05-08-2009, 17:23
It's a hard question, I think the Star Dragon will win out, although it'll be close- and one on one the Black Dragon will certainly give the Star Dragon a run for its money with re-rolls every turn.


@ EvC: You're contradicting yourself. If Harpies are a nightmare that can crossfire and grab table quarters, than why should I do a little dance when my opponent shoots at them?

Whether they're sucking up firepower in the first couple of turns, re-directing enemy units in mid game or running down fleeing enemies and claiming table quarters in the end game, they're doing an amazing job (if used correctly). Of course they're best when they survive the game, but if their SOLE use in an entire game is to absorb magic and shooting that would otherwise be hitting your more valuable units- then they've done excellently.


Cheap throw away units are what you shoot at first, that's why they're so good. Screens, fast cav and flying redirectors have to be eliminated first before you can engage the main fighting force. The point is to kill them sooner than the enemy wants them to be, before they can do the job they are there to do.

Oh, I don't disagree with that, but even if they are just taking the brunt of the enemy's shooting, then they're doing great. That's why they're so good.


And I don't see how fleeing from panic and taking 2 turns to rally and then sit there for a turn is better than the single model Eagle that won't flee in the first place.

Is that what I said? No, it isn't. You and Draconian claimed that Harpies will panic easily and run off the table. That should not happen. Just disputing the falsehood. Which is easier to shift with shooting, Harpies or an Eagle? The Eagle has T4, 3 wounds and won't panic. The Harpies are -1 to shoot at, T3, 5 wounds total but might panic after taking 2 wounds. There's really not that much in it- the Eagle will usually die first, but the Harpies might panic (But shouldn't if the DE player has positioned them well).


And Harpies scatter like fanatics. Not literally of course, but it is in their nature that they will fly away from the general, since DE are a movement superiority army it is easy for units to get away from the general.

Yes, but if you're playing smart, they'll start either out of sight or near the general, then by the time it comes for them to be annoying, they'll probably have the role of dying or fleeing to safety and a good chance of rallying.


Even my PegLvl4 uses her Harpies to usher her across the table to a good cover position for the familiar, but once she finds it the Harpies go off on their own. Not that I've never had Harpies take a rally or a panic test with my General's ld, but I go without it more often than not.

Yeah, and I bet your Harpies do pretty well for themselves, don't they?


Ld6 is clearly worse than ld8 on an eagle.

Taken in isolation and out of context, yes it is. So let's not do that, hokay?

Core Harpies > Rare Great Eagle

At the end of the day, if a Dark Elf opponent offered me to swap a Great Eagle (and 5 points) for 5 Harpies, I'd take that any day of the week. Would you be so willing to swap your Harpies (even ignoring the rare slot part)?

Simple fact, dunno why you bother to dispute. Perhaps we could have a "is the Pendant broken?" or "Is the Hydra underpriced?" discussion while we're at it too ;)

limkopi
05-08-2009, 17:26
SD probably comes out on top because of the increased stats. The BD deals 1 or more wounds per phase 84.64% of the time while the SD deals 2 or more wounds 82.95% of the time (using Binomial Distribution). Guess who comes up tops in the long run.

I'd prefer harpies too. Cheap and useful, especially if you keep a unit or two protected for the first few turns in case of emergencies.

willowdark
05-08-2009, 17:47
EvC, the point is that Harpies aren't automatically better than Eagles. Both have advantages over the other, and both are extremely effective for the points. They perform largely the same role but do it in slightly different ways, with neither being exceptionally better than the other.

Would I trade my Harpies for Eagles? No. But I wouldn't complain because I have Eagles and my opponent has Harpies.


Taken in isolation and out of context, yes it is. So let's not do that, hokay?

Fine.


Core Harpies > Rare Great Eagle

Wait! I thought we weren't going to do that.

Core Harpies are better than Wood Elf Eagles, because WE rare choices are all good and slots are highly competitive, so there will always be more Harpies than Eagles in a DE vs WE match.

But we're talking about HEs here. You can have 4 Eagles in your army, I could have 4 units of Harpies in mine, but neither of us are going to do that because there are better things to spend the money on.

Harpies are core but don't fill core requirements. that means I'm anywhere from 350 - 500 points down before I can even think about Harpies. Then you have to account for expensive characters and expensive Elite Infantry. I'm sure you'd love to rave about all the cheap choices in the DE army but we have a lot of expensive choices as well.

Of course, HE have nothing but expensive choices, so I'm not trying to argue that DE have it bad or anything. Just trying to be realistic about how many Harpies you're going to see in a balanced list.

limkopi
05-08-2009, 18:12
Harpies have 1 more use which it does better than Eagles. Warmachine/Mage hunt. At 2 attacks each, 1 unit of Harpies can take out most War machine crews effectively and with frontage of 5, you can arrange it such that 3 Harpies can touch a Mage, giving 6 attacks on the harpies for a high chance of dealing 1 wound (2 on roughly 40% assuming hitting on 4's and wounding on 4's).

lakissov
06-08-2009, 06:58
Actually, when comparing eagles to harpies, I agree that they fill many of the same roles, but do it slightly differently:
1. Charge redirection:
- harpies flee for redirecting, and this is more efficient when the opponent is more or less far away, so that he wouldn't get EiTW
- eagles accept the charge, and the opponent aligns to them; this is more efficient at short range, because otherwise the opponent can charge around the eagle into the target behind
=> harpies are better at redirecting against chargers far away, but eagles are better against chargers close by; additionally, harpies are better ar redirecting against monsters and chariots, because those usually can't be blocked efficiently with eagles
2. War machine hunting
- harpies have more attacks, but eagles have better stats; this means that harpies are generally better against war machines, with the exception of dwarven war machines, which they usually can't even tie up for a turn (they lose the combat and break, so the war machine can shoot in its next phase) - eagles on the other hand will tie a dwarven war machine, and grind it over several turns
3. Light support interception
- harpies have more attacks and higher US, but eagle has better combat stats and Ld; here, they are equally good, because eagle will suffer less wounds back, and will keep the support unit tied down better, even if it loses; again, the exception is gyrocopter, with which the eagle will deal better
4. Suicidal mage hunting
- here harpies are better against low-T low-AS mages in units that don't have ASF, and eagles are better against higher-T better-AS mages or those in ASF units, but usually suicidal hunting doesn't really work in the latter cases, so I'd say that harpies are much better for this purpose

additionally, harpies can screen, and have US5, which allows them to control special features and table quarters.

also, eagles are more resilient to low-S fire and MMs

in general, I'd say that harpies are markedly better, even considering the 10% cost difference (and I'm a DE player). still, the eagles are also very very good - it's just that harpies are insanely good (oh, and on the notion of 4 harpy units - it's more than viable; actually, I'd say that a list containing those risks to be called cheesy, and so this is the amount that you'd take to the more hardcore and competitive events).

Kill-Freedom
06-08-2009, 07:22
So I've proxied a few games with High Elves and am seriously considering purchasing an army. However, my friend who plays Dark Elves is practically at the point of refusing to play me. I'm taking a themed Sapphery list with an Arch Mage, level 2, BSB, and two units of 14 Swordmasters, some Spearman, Archers, Ellyrian Reavers, Eagles, and RBT's. He seems to think there is absolutely no way he can compete with Swordmasters, and that High Elves are just a better version of Dark Elves.

How do I convince him this is not the case? With the Ring of Hotek alone my magic phase will most likely be neutered or brought to an ineffective level. With a decent amount of shooting and Blackguard with ASF the Swordmasters could be removed as well.

What do you guys think? Am I taking a list that skews the balance horribly so? If not, what would you suggest a DE player do to crack my list?


Call your friend a cry baby, i am playing dark elves these days and if i was fighting HE, id love to be facing units of sword masters :D

SM are only good if the enemy cant take shooting, like VC's and WoC, any other army will be laughing at you for using them, lol, no offense, they would be the focus of ever bow and war machine around, and an easy 300 plus victory points

EvC
06-08-2009, 13:08
in general, I'd say that harpies are markedly better, even considering the 10% cost difference (and I'm a DE player). still, the eagles are also very very good - it's just that harpies are insanely good (oh, and on the notion of 4 harpy units - it's more than viable; actually, I'd say that a list containing those risks to be called cheesy, and so this is the amount that you'd take to the more hardcore and competitive events).

Perfect analysis- I don't see why more Dark Elf players just can't help themselves from disagreeing with simple statements like "Harpies are better than Great Eagles". You've got a great unit- enjoy it fellas :D

willowdark
06-08-2009, 13:32
Sure, Harpies are better than Eagles. ;):rolleyes::D

But only by a narrow margin. I think that it's equally a case of non-Dark Elf players getting misty-eyed over the choices in the book and making them out to be more than what they are. Then, an actual DE player comes along and says, "Well, practically speaking, these are the actual weaknesses and in an all-comers list. These are the real liabilities."

Some choices in the book are obviously good with no drawbacks. The unkillable Dreadlord on Dragon, the Hydra and ASF Black Guard all fit into this category. The Ring of Hotek, for instance, does not.

My point about Harpy ld is valid when comparing them to Eagles, it makes the Harpies less reliable. Harpies might make better mage hunters, unless the mage is hiding in a unit of shooters. Goblin shortbows panicked my Harpies on a S&S denying me that Goblin Shaman. So in this case, the Eagle would've been better since it wouldn't have panicked in the first place.

Arguing about the general's ld would be valid, but Harpies have many jobs that take them away from the general. Marchblocking, warmachine/mage hunting and charge redirecting should all take the unit out of the General's ld umbrella, at which point ld6 becomes a huge liability.

But those are just all points worth noting to keep the conversation honest. If one unit must be the winner, then let it be the Harpies. But Eagles are excellent units too.

EvC
06-08-2009, 14:01
Of course there are ways that an Eagle is better. But the simple point is that Harpies have far more advantages that outweigh the Eagle's disadvantages. This isn't me getting misty-eyed, this is simple fact. I love using that word ;)

Sure, one time a goblin player might kill 2 Harpies to panic the unit (needing 7s to hit, with just a few shots?), but that's called a one-off, the same Goblin player could have simply killed the Great Eagle outright with his shots, and I think if you were keeping the conversation even more honest you'd be able to list far more notable and reliable achievements that the Harpies have made (That an Eagle would not be able to), rather than the one time an opponent got supremely lucky... if we were looking at average dice, the Harpies would succeed with the charge and get the kill on the Goblin Shaman far more often than the Great Eagle would, so you can hardly use that as a reason.

You also keep missing the point on what LD is there for. You don't need the general's LD to marchblock, they certainly don't need it to charge a warmachine (unless you know any fear-causing warmachines), and when they charge redirect, guess what- they don't need an LD test for that as well, because they're fleeing voluntarily. They need the LD for a better chance to rally, sure. But by the point they're taking the rally test they've already done the important work. If they fail- boo hoo, 55 points down the drain, for far more than 55 points of effectiveness.

Dark Elf 101 here ;)

Tarian
06-08-2009, 20:06
Well, other than the Hellcannon... (not that I would want to charge that with Harpies OR an Eagle or even both :P The thing's nasty!)

That being said, most of my DE v. HE fights have been horrific bloody affairs. One game ended with everything dead except for my 3 Spearelves. If nothing else, that hints to me that the armies are at least similar in terms of ability.

In my experience, DE hits harder than HE, but HE hits better*.

*by better I mean they either have better WS, fight in more ranks, fight first, or some combination of the aforementioned.

Then again, both armies are glass hammers in my experience, and they always turn into good fun bloodfests.

Draconian77
06-08-2009, 23:51
Sure, one time a goblin player might kill 2 Harpies to panic the unit (needing 7s to hit, with just a few shots?)

7's?

Very few units would ever realistically need 7's to hit the Harpies...

Also, magic missiles and breath weapons(and any weapon that hits automatically for that matter) are much more dangerous to Harpies.
(As are Tomb King archers! ;))


You also keep missing the point on what LD is there for. You don't need the general's LD to marchblock,

You do if your opponent has Terror causers. :angel:

But by the point they're taking the rally test they've already done the important work. If they fail- boo hoo, 55 points down the drain, for far more than 55 points of effectiveness.

Surely by that argument an Eagle is even better as it can redirect, rally and redirect again. :D

Dark Elf 101 here ;)

Clearly. :rolleyes:

To my mind Eagles and Harpies are virtually equal, only the Rare slot really looks painful for the Eagle when I compare the two. I just don't think that it's enough of a disadvantage to make Eagles clearly inferior.

Or to put it another way, I think most Dark Elf players could swap 3 units of Harpies for 3 Eagles and notice almost no significant change in battlefield effectiveness.

Emeraldw
07-08-2009, 04:20
I

As an aside, what do people make of the Stardragon vs Black Dragon with Hatred? Off the top of my head, I'm guessing that the Stardragon still comes out on top, or would you say it's dependent on the opposition?

I think the Black dragon is better by far in most situations. Star Dragons big advantage is that it has Str 7 in my mind. This is awesome if your attacking chariots but otherwise it doesn't make much difference against many other units. The extra wound is nice though and I think it gains an extra attack but not sure atm.

Black Dragons on the other hand gain hatred. This makes that str 6 that much more valuable as you are likely wounding on at least a 3+ against most things you attack, so getting the extra hits makes a bigger difference. Another important piece is the rider, hatred helps out the rider while ASF on a Prince doesn't help out a flying terror causer. A lord with a lance has 9 Str 6 re roll to hits which imo is more devastating than the star dragon and prince which has 6 str 7 and 4 str 6. I do also think it is important to point out the defensive options for the lord are better for Dark Elves making the dragon really be the target. Finally the black dragon is slightly cheaper, for a dragon.

Now if your throwing it against things like Ancient stegadons and other really large, high T things then I think the star dragon would be better, especially since you can bump up the Princes attacks with a str 7 lance however I haven't done the math.

All in all, I think the black dragon is superior apart from situations where that str 7 is really needed.

Edit: When comparing them, I think bringing up the rider and their options is important. One final thing the black dragon can do is have a lord sorc ride it. Star dragons are only available to Princes. While you can have an Archmage ride a Moon dragon, I believe the Black Dragon is better and you can protect the rider. Also Dark Elf mages have some spells that can be cast into combat while an AM does not though I THINK you can still cast even while in combat as you are a large target though I could easily be wrong.

Both are Brutal certainly but I believe overall the Black Dragon is superior.

Sarah S
07-08-2009, 04:25
The Star Dragon wins easily. Far greater damage output against most targets.

More importantly in my mind is that Hatred on a flying, Terror causing, rank breaking monster can really bite you in the ass when you have to pursue against every little piece of trash 40 point unit of Skavenslaves/hounds/gnoblars/etc.

Emeraldw
07-08-2009, 04:34
The Star Dragon wins easily. Far greater damage output against most targets.

More importantly in my mind is that Hatred on a flying, Terror causing, rank breaking monster can really bite you in the ass when you have to pursue against every little piece of trash 40 point unit of Skavenslaves/hounds/gnoblars/etc.

One of the big advantages of Large target flyers is that they can pick their battles more than pretty much anything else. If I knew the weakness of hatred I wouldn't charge such a unit unless I wanted to.

EvC
07-08-2009, 13:05
Black Dragon actually has greater damage output thanks to hatred, except when fighting things like units of chariots, or things like Nurgle Knights. Plus the guy on top can have a really good magic weapon, brilliant magic defence and/or great protection. High Elf Princes can only really do one of those, but they can give their Dragon magical attacks, which is nice. I would rate the Star Dragon slightly higher still ,but then it does cost more, so all's good on that front.


7's?

Very few units would ever realistically need 7's to hit the Harpies...

Any unit with BS3 that is charged by Harpies at long range (-1 charged, -1 skirmisher, -1 long range) makes 7s. I agree it's not realistic though.


Also, magic missiles and breath weapons(and any weapon that hits automatically for that matter) are much more dangerous to Harpies.
(As are Tomb King archers! )

Well, T3 and 5W vs T4 and 3W... you need 10 S3 hits to kill all Harpies on average, but only 9 to kill the Eagle, (Or ~8 S4 for Harpies and 6 S4 for Eagle) so it's pretty balanced really. Breath weapons will of course be a bit scarier and the Harpies might panic, but that just makes it balanced since the Harpies are harder to hit and wipe out.


You do if your opponent has Terror causers.

Not to just land there for a turn...


Surely by that argument an Eagle is even better as it can redirect, rally and redirect again.

Once again you have repeated the dumb fallacy that Harpies never pass leadership tests. Hint: they do :D


Or to put it another way, I think most Dark Elf players could swap 3 units of Harpies for 3 Eagles and notice almost no significant change in battlefield effectiveness.

Good Dark Elf players will be using Harpies to get behind enemy units and destroy them as they flee from combat, panic or terror. That's quite a significant drop I would say!

I actually played High Elves vs Dark Elves yesterday. I was amazingly lucky at times, killing a Dreadlord with regen armour with a single RBT shot, another Bolter knocking 3 wounds off Hydra, plus quite an optimum build, with an Archmage that was immune to mundane attacks, plus a building to put him in where nothing of the enemy stood a chance at hitting him. Great setup, brilliant luck, some very smart tactics... and I got a minor victory, whoo! :D

Great Eagle vs Harpy count though: One unit of Harpies failed terror and fled off board (poorly used, they should have been redirecting my Dragon Princes after Cold Ones failed stupidity and stumbled into charge range), the other took a lot of shooting, passed panic, then passed terror to charge wounded Dragon Mage, which killed them (I was lucky). My Eagle on the other hand failed fear against Cold Ones, failed to rally, then charged 3 Harpies and was killed (the unit that went on to attack the Dragon Mage). I'd certainly have appreciated having Harpies instead in that game!

Draconian77
07-08-2009, 18:03
Any unit with BS3 that is charged by Harpies at long range (-1 charged, -1 skirmisher, -1 long range) makes 7s. I agree it's not realistic though.

Harpies charging a missile unit head on? That's not likely to go well...

If the Harpies are marchblocking, odds are your opponent won't need higher than 5's. (Units with Bs3+24" range)

Not to just land there for a turn...

Sure, march block them for one turn before (normally)running away...great way to waste a unit. :D

Once again you have repeated the dumb fallacy that Harpies never pass leadership tests. Hint: they do :D

You seem to ignore the fact that, by the numbers, they fail more than they pass. So planning on them failing is where the smart money is. :p

Good Dark Elf players will be using Harpies to get behind enemy units and destroy them as they flee from combat, panic or terror. That's quite a significant drop I would say!

Nah, good DE generals use Dark Riders for that, less risky with their Ld, armour save and US. Harpies behind a block are generally within short range of missile units(5's?) or close to Terror causers.

I actually played High Elves vs Dark Elves yesterday. I was amazingly lucky at times, killing a Dreadlord with regen armour with a single RBT shot, another Bolter knocking 3 wounds off Hydra, plus quite an optimum build, with an Archmage that was immune to mundane attacks, plus a building to put him in where nothing of the enemy stood a chance at hitting him. Great setup, brilliant luck, some very smart tactics... and I got a minor victory, whoo! :D

Right...all of that means nothing though.

Great Eagle vs Harpy count though: One unit of Harpies failed terror and fled off board (poorly used, they should have been redirecting my Dragon Princes after Cold Ones failed stupidity and stumbled into charge range), the other took a lot of shooting, passed panic, then passed terror to charge wounded Dragon Mage, which killed them (I was lucky). My Eagle on the other hand failed fear against Cold Ones, failed to rally, then charged 3 Harpies and was killed (the unit that went on to attack the Dragon Mage). I'd certainly have appreciated having Harpies instead in that game!

You know that's anecdotal evidence...but even then, the Harpies where lucky to pass two consecutive Ld tests and your Eagle was unlucky to fail.

Although if you charged the CO's that's your mistake, if they charged you at least they where going off in the direction you wanted them to?

Last time I used Harpies a magic missile killed a unit and some shooting saw the other unit panic off the board. Meh...Ld6, what you going to do? :)

A lot has been said about the Stardragon vs Black Dragon, don't people think that it's T of 7 is a factor aswell? Have't seen anyone bring it up. Bolt Throwers need 5's!

EDIT; Apparently my opponent isn't using his SD with T6 like he should be...ignore the above.

Kerill
07-08-2009, 18:50
Star dragon has T6, hence no-one bringing that problem up...

fubukii
07-08-2009, 20:15
a star dragon has +1ws/wound/str/atk over its dark elf cousin.

Overal id say the star dragon is slightly better.

SilentStalker
07-08-2009, 20:47
same. WS 7 counts for a lot when fighting dragon on dragon, as does the extra str because it completely remove the dragon AS, as well as wounding on 3s with an extra attack.
Star Dragon attacking dragon gets:
6 attacks, 4 hits, 2.67 wounds
Rider (with halberd) attacking dragon:
4 attacks, 2.67 hits, 0.59 wounds after saves
Black Dragon gets:
5 attacks, 3.75 hits (including hatred reroll) 1.56 wounds after saves
Rider (with lance from what I assume from previous posts):
4 attacks, 3.34 hits, 1.67 wounds, 1.39 wounds after saves

So assuming the DE gets the charge, we have (as sensible people would attack the dragon in combat since we are kitting out the riders with defenses in this case) 3.23 wounds for the DE and 3.26 wounds for the HE. First round done, moving on to round 2!

Prince goes first, still at str 5 we get the same 0.59 wounds on the dragon.
Next is Dreadlord, who now at str 4 due to continuing combat gets only 0.29 wounds.
Now for the Black Dragon, still dealing 1.56 wounds.
Then the Star Dragon comes in to deal its 2.67 wounds to the Black Dragon.

With round 2 we see the DE getting 1.85 wounds, not enough to kill the Star Dragon (thus allowing it to attack in this case), and the HE netting a solid 3.26 wounds again, taking down the Black Dragon. The Dreadlord would be left on foot to need insane courage.

willowdark
07-08-2009, 21:28
Your Dreadlord should have either Crimson Death for a consistent st6 in all rounds or Calendor's Bane for st7 on the charge. That might change those numbers a bit.

You tell me. I've no head for statistics. ;)

EvC
07-08-2009, 21:55
Even then I think the Star Dragon comes out no top. As it should!


Harpies charging a missile unit head on? That's not likely to go well...

That's probably why I didn't bring it up in the first place ;)


If the Harpies are marchblocking, odds are your opponent won't need higher than 5's. (Units with Bs3+24" range)

Certainly my good fellow. Or 4s vs a Great Eagle.


Sure, march block them for one turn before (normally)running away...great way to waste a unit.

That's if the enemy bothers to move his terror causer into range of the Harpies. In which case the Dark Elf player should be laughing once again.


You seem to ignore the fact that, by the numbers, they fail more than they pass. So planning on them failing is where the smart money is.

As would a good High Elf player, even with better LD ;) Coming up with contingency plans for when the dice don't work right is half the battle. And it's easier to do with Harpies. Ask me to explain how if you want me to school you some more ;)


Nah, good DE generals use Dark Riders for that, less risky with their Ld, armour save and US. Harpies behind a block are generally within short range of missile units(5's?) or close to Terror causers.

Whether it's DR or Harpies, you still have to actually BE in the same place to kill a unit by crossfire. If a Harpy unit in such a location would be in short range, so would a DR unit. The Harpy unit would have a much easier time getting there however, since it itself cannot be marchblocked and can ignore terrain. There's a reason why smart players say unlimited core flyers are bad for the game, and that's cos they're quite smart really.


You know that's anecdotal evidence...but even then, the Harpies where lucky to pass two consecutive Ld tests and your Eagle was unlucky to fail.

As much as I would love to believe that every time something bad happens to me in a game of warhammer it's because I'm unlucky, I'm experienced enough to understand that luck is a bit deeper than that ;)


Last time I used Harpies a magic missile killed a unit and some shooting saw the other unit panic off the board. Meh...Ld6, what you going to do?

Same dice would have killed off the Great Eagle as well most likely, you realise.

Keep arguing if you like, I think you managed to show just how knowledgable you really are in the bit at the end of your post really... T7 Star Dragons indeed! ;)

willowdark
07-08-2009, 22:18
Do you see the way he keeps winking at you, Draconian?

Maybe you should buy him a drink.

Emeraldw
08-08-2009, 01:43
A lot has been said about the Stardragon vs Black Dragon, don't people think that it's T of 7 is a factor aswell? Have't seen anyone bring it up. Bolt Throwers need 5's!

Star Dragons are only T6. Defensively it is the same as a normal dragon beyond one extra wound.

I am sorry Draconian but where did you hear it was T7?

My comparison for Dragons was based largely on facing normal units like spearmen where str 6 either ignores their armor save or makes it so low that it is almost inconsequential, not each other. But in that case I should do the math myself:

Star Dragon: 6 attacks, 4 hits, 3.32 Wounds.
Prince (Normal Lance): 4 attacks, 2.68 hits, 2.22 Wounds
Total: 5.54 Wounds

Black Dragon: 5 attacks, 4.35 hits, 3.16 Wounds
Lord with str 6: 4 attacks, 3.48 hits, 2.88 Wounds
Total: 6.04

In this case, Black Dragons do better largely due to the reroll of hits. I am not even sure I did the hatred math right but still, in the first round of combat a black dragon does better. After that, the Star Dragon does pull ahead largely due to the extra attack but the prince would lose effectiveness while the Dread lord might still be str 6 and against HEs they continue to reroll hits.

Mullitron
08-08-2009, 08:13
In this case, Black Dragons do better largely due to the reroll of hits. I am not even sure I did the hatred math right but still, in the first round of combat a black dragon does better. After that, the Star Dragon does pull ahead largely due to the extra attack but the prince would lose effectiveness while the Dread lord might still be str 6 and against HEs they continue to reroll hits.

Shall we just say there about equal with the star dragon being slightly better against most opponents.

Emeraldw
08-08-2009, 14:58
Shall we just say there about equal with the star dragon being slightly better against most opponents.

I was saying the exact opposite. The Black dragon is better against most opponents. The advantages of the star dragon lie in its extra wound and higher str really and the higher str doesn't mean much against most things you throw at it as str 6 is enough to wound most things in the game on a 2+

Random Person
08-08-2009, 16:21
I don't know what black dragons have but Star Dragons have a 3+ armor save.

LKHERO
08-08-2009, 16:49
It's simple: Your friend is delusional and is quite a bad player if he thinks High Elves are better than Dark Elves.

On a point to point, item to item, unit for unit basis, this is completely illogical. Especially with that list you just gave.

This has been beaten to death enough, I'm just going to let it die.

Stinkfoot
08-08-2009, 17:34
This has been beaten to death enough, I'm just going to let it die.

By replying and thereby bumping it back up to the top of the forum?

fubukii
08-08-2009, 22:11
It's simple: Your friend is delusional and is quite a bad player if he thinks High Elves are better than Dark Elves.

On a point to point, item to item, unit for unit basis, this is completely illogical. Especially with that list you just gave.

This has been beaten to death enough, I'm just going to let it die.

Ill agree and disagree with that statement.

I feel that high elves can totally compete with most dark elf armies, but i will agree that i feel dark elves are slightly better overal.

General advanages
De:
Hatred - pretty awesome army special rule. One small downside to it is being forced to pursue.
Better low strength shooting. Put simply shades and Rxbmen totally rock the socks off of archers and shadow warriors theres no comparison what so ever.
Better fast cav.
Solid magic items.
better magic defense.
core fliers.

HE:
ASF army wide. this will mean your he units will beat most de units without asf. Yes black guard are amazing, and will kill most he units 1v1 but thats not what im talking about in this particular instance.
Non stupid heavy cav, always a plus :)
Better magic users.
Non stupid chariots.
some pretty good items.
Slightly better spearmen.

i think thats a fair assesment. He are at a disadvantage vs most dark elf armies, but its not a unwinnable game by anymeans.

Draconian77
09-08-2009, 04:46
That's probably why I didn't bring it up in the first place ;)

"Any unit with BS3 that is charged by Harpies at long range (-1 charged, -1 skirmisher, -1 long range) makes 7s."

That's what you said...hit your head a little too hard or something?

Certainly my good fellow. Or 4s vs a Great Eagle.

Resulting in a wounded eagle or a diminished unit of Harpies. Only one has a chance of fleeing though.

That's if the enemy bothers to move his terror causer into range of the Harpies. In which case the Dark Elf player should be laughing once again.

Why? Eliminating the march blockers/redirectors early on simply by moving a unit early on is a win for him. Assuming a 6 turn game, he has plenty of time to move the big nasty into an influential position.

As would a good High Elf player, even with better LD Coming up with contingency plans for when the dice don't work right is half the battle. And it's easier to do with Harpies. Ask me to explain how if you want me to school you some more.

Wow...did that ever go over your head;

Planning for something going wrong is a fundamental.
So is planning for when it goes right.
However, there is a point where planning for something to go wrong becomes a pointless exercise. (As in, plan for everything to go wrong...) More than that, I'd rather have a unit which allows me to plan for something going right a higher % of the time than the opposite. As would most gamers, there is a reason why Undead, Daemon and Stubborn+ItP units are all considered "a little too good". You could fail, but it's unlikely. (Black Guard over Executioners for example)

Whether it's DR or Harpies, you still have to actually BE in the same place to kill a unit by crossfire. If a Harpy unit in such a location would be in short range, so would a DR unit.

The Dark Rider unit with an armour save and a better Ld score...you missed(or refused to accept) the point completely.

The Harpy unit would have a much easier time getting there however, since it itself cannot be marchblocked and can ignore terrain.

Undoubtedly it's easier, but who here thinks it difficult to get Dark Riders into a position to march block? When one unit has a 90% chance of success and the other unit has a 91% chance of success(and of course, they have different disadvantages) who considers that 1% the deciding factor when comparing a unit's role compared to larger % values with regards to "it going badly."

There's a reason why smart players say unlimited core flyers are bad for the game, and that's cos they're quite smart really.

Ah, lovely. Invisible smart people! :eyebrows:
I for my part haven't seen waves upon waves of WHFB player moaning about Harpies. Normally it's Pendant this, Ring that and of course, "175pts for a Hydra?!"
What's truly bad for the game is dumb people saying "Such and such is bad for the game!" without mountains of proof or rational arguments...

->Unlimited Harpies do what the unlimited Dark Riders have always done. (Apart from, you cannot have 3x Harpy units as your Core requirements)
->They are weaker against some things and better against others comparatively.
->They would have been underused as a Special choice(like last edition) and probably ignored as a Rare choice.
->In no way, shape or form do they break the game or it's fundamental mechanics. (Unless you consider Flight as breaking a fundamental mechanic, in which case you would be very wrong.)


As much as I would love to believe that every time something bad happens to me in a game of warhammer it's because I'm unlucky, I'm experienced enough to understand that luck is a bit deeper than that.

Then clearly your experience has thought you nothing... Luck is a factor. Thinking about probability in any other fashion is ludicrous. People don't plan to be lucky or unlucky, then plan on averages. Nothing "deeper" happens when your 3 Mages all roll miscasts followed by snake-eyes, it's just probability biting you in the rear-end! :eek: When probability bites you in the rear-end, you are said to be unlucky. Simple as that really.

Same dice would have killed off the Great Eagle as well most likely, you realise.

The magic missile? Almost certainly. The other unit that Panicked? I think the Eagle would have been fine. (Well, wounded but alive enough to do it's job!)

Keep arguing if you like, I think you managed to show just how knowledgable you really are in the bit at the end of your post really... T7 Star Dragons indeed!

I'm surprised you remembered that...(It has been edited for reference)
Lucky you didn't hit your head a little harder. :p

@Emeraldw; When I shot the damn thing with my Reapers and was told it was T7! ;) That's what you get for trusting a 40k convert...

Generally speaking we don't see many(any) Dragons around here.

Lot's of Bloodthirsters though...so, so many Bloodthirsters...(<- Irrelevant)

Emeraldw
09-08-2009, 05:04
@Emeraldw; When I shot the damn thing with my Reapers and was told it was T7! ;) That's what you get for trusting a 40k convert...


Be careful with those 40k converts, They can be tricky ones!

Draconian77
09-08-2009, 05:26
Ay...you're not wrong there.

->
You cannot deep strike your Bloodthirster onto the table!
Stop it!
You're breaking Fantasy!
("Breaks")
:cries:

:angel:

EvC
09-08-2009, 18:10
That's what you said...hit your head a little too hard or something?

If your aim was to make yourself look silly here: mission accomplished. Go back and look at what I was responding to- someone else referring to a situation where Harpies are charging a missile unit head on. It was pretty useless to bring it up, certainly- I didn't bring it up.


Resulting in a wounded eagle or a diminished unit of Harpies. Only one has a chance of fleeing though.

The Eagle is easier to kill, the Harpies are easier to panic. That's that.


Why? Eliminating the march blockers/redirectors early on simply by moving a unit early on is a win for him. Assuming a 6 turn game, he has plenty of time to move the big nasty into an influential position.

Manipulating the enemy into moving his terror-causing model to a small region just to get rid of a 55 point unit, rather than sending it down a flank to cause havoc, or close to other more important units susceptible to terror? If the player has nothing better to do with his terror-causer, sure. Most armies do not have multiple terror causers (Prime offender is the army with the Harpies) and to divert that model for an entire turn just to potentially terror away some Harpies? That's not smart. Maybe you think it is. I'll let anyone reading decide for themselves.


Wow...did that ever go over your head;

Planning for something going wrong is a fundamental.
So is planning for when it goes right.
However, there is a point where planning for something to go wrong becomes a pointless exercise. (As in, plan for everything to go wrong...) More than that, I'd rather have a unit which allows me to plan for something going right a higher % of the time than the opposite. As would most gamers, there is a reason why Undead, Daemon and Stubborn+ItP units are all considered "a little too good". You could fail, but it's unlikely. (Black Guard over Executioners for example)

Can't be bothered to explain my point here, I don't want to be accused of holding your hand as well as winking at you too much :p

I'll just say that if you think players shouldn't build in contingency plans for LD8 units and psych tests, then that certainly explains why you make so many statements that expose your lack of tactical ability for this game.


The Dark Rider unit with an armour save and a better Ld score...you missed(or refused to accept) the point completely.

The difference in armour save is countered by the fact there is no -1 to hit to shoot at them. If Dark Riders can get there, sure, they can get there. But which unit is easier to get there with, Harpies or Dark Riders?


Undoubtedly it's easier, but who here thinks it difficult to get Dark Riders into a position to march block? When one unit has a 90% chance of success and the other unit has a 91% chance of success(and of course, they have different disadvantages) who considers that 1% the deciding factor when comparing a unit's role compared to larger % values with regards to "it going badly."

If you think there's a only 1% difference in the ability to manouevre a fast cav unit that a flying skirmisher unit, then you're an idiot. I expect you simply haven't really thought about the difference in any great detail, and are too interested in point-scoring to actually employ critical thinking. But I'm sure you can.

Here's a hint: the best position to march-block enemy units is from behind them, where they can't attack you or shoot at you without moving.

Harpies are better march-blockers than Dark Riders. You are at the point where you arguing against me just for the sake of arguing against me. That's not a good point to be in, as it makes almost every response of yours nonsensical at best.


Ah, lovely. Invisible smart people!
I for my part haven't seen waves upon waves of WHFB player moaning about Harpies. Normally it's Pendant this, Ring that and of course, "175pts for a Hydra?!"
What's truly bad for the game is dumb people saying "Such and such is bad for the game!" without mountains of proof or rational arguments...

The proof I need is at druchii.net. Go look at the armies employed by the top, most experienced players over there. You'll notice almost all of the "best" armies for the toughest tournament all have a common theme: a hell of a lot of cheap, throwaway units, like Harpies. And yes, Dark Riders too!

Of course, you can ignore my rational arguments, and you can ignore the top players at the top Dark Elf site as well... that's certainly par for the course.


->Unlimited Harpies do what the unlimited Dark Riders have always done. (Apart from, you cannot have 3x Harpy units as your Core requirements)

For 2/3 of the cost. They do some things better and some things worse, of course.


->They are weaker against some things and better against others comparatively.

Agreed with in general. A Dark Elf general would have a hard time in deciding between 2 x Dark Riders or 3 x Harpies, but a general general would certainly pick 3 x Harpies over 3 x Great Eagles (+15 points) every time. The Dark Elf general would just shrug anyway, knowing he can take 2 x Dark Riders and 3 x Harpies, without impacting his ability to take some decent rare choices as well.


->They would have been underused as a Special choice(like last edition) and probably ignored as a Rare choice.

Absolutely. Personally I'd like a limit on them like 1 unit can be taken as core (not true core), and one extra unit per unit of Corsairs. Would make Corsairs seen more often as well, which would be nice.


->In no way, shape or form do they break the game or it's fundamental mechanics. (Unless you consider Flight as breaking a fundamental mechanic, in which case you would be very wrong.)

Flight is one of the worst aspects of the game at present IMO, but mostly for flying monsters, not really for Harpies. Harpies do not break the game or its mechanics, but armies that take advantage of them to the fullest extent do take it a bit too far towards avoidancehammer. The synergy with the rest of the list makes them very nasty indeed.

fubukii
10-08-2009, 01:51
evc is correct all tournament dark elf lists should be using at least 3+ units of harpies/dark riders.

I tend to use either 2 of each or 3 units of harpies one dark rider unit. The dark riders are nice because with a flank they can negate ranks which is why i tend to do 2v2, they are generally more well rounded but tend to die a bit easier then harpies.

Draconian77
11-08-2009, 14:28
If your aim was to make yourself look silly here: mission accomplished. Go back and look at what I was responding to- someone else referring to a situation where Harpies are charging a missile unit head on. It was pretty useless to bring it up, certainly- I didn't bring it up.

That's ceratinly not what it seems to be...check again maybe? I'll do the same of course.

The Eagle is easier to kill, the Harpies are easier to panic. That's that.

Finally, you just say it out loud. :D

Manipulating the enemy into moving his terror-causing model to a small region just to get rid of a 55 point unit, rather than sending it down a flank to cause havoc, or close to other more important units susceptible to terror? If the player has nothing better to do with his terror-causer, sure. Most armies do not have multiple terror causers (Prime offender is the army with the Harpies) and to divert that model for an entire turn just to potentially terror away some Harpies? That's not smart. Maybe you think it is. I'll let anyone reading decide for themselves.

You again assume that it could cause havoc down a flank(Enemy could be playing refused flank? A terrain piece could be in the way? Maybe they are flanking with something it can't beat? etc) Just because it's within 6" of some Harpies doesn't mean it has wasted it's movement as long as the player is looking ahead to future turns. If he just runs after them helter-skelter and ends up in a forest...then yeah, he's an idiot and the DE player should be laughing! (But that's not going to happen...)


I'll just say that if you think players shouldn't build in contingency plans for LD8 units and psych tests, then that certainly explains why you make so many statements that expose your lack of tactical ability for this game.

So somehow you think that when I said "Planning for something to go wrong is a fundamental." I meant "Ld 8 is awesome and will never fail, ever!" :eyebrows: Now you're the one embarrassing yourself by not reading/accepting the words in front of you. I really don't understand how you missed that...


The difference in armour save is countered by the fact there is no -1 to hit to shoot at them. If Dark Riders can get there, sure, they can get there. But which unit is easier to get there with, Harpies or Dark Riders?

10 Bs3 S3 shots vs Harpies, about 1.7 wounds.
10 Bs3 S3 shots vs Dark Riders, about 1.7 wounds.

Now they both take a panic check.
The Dark Riders have a better chance of passing obviously.
Secondly, if they fail they could Rally later on, and of course they will probably have a Musician.
Of course, we also already discussed that magic missiles are more effective against Harpies due to their auto-hit nature.
Finally, the Harpies become US3, not enough to destroy fleeing units. The DR's would become US6.

Yes, the Harpies are easier to get there with, but, being frank, they should both get to where ever they need to be by turn 2 assuming a good deployment. They are both excellent units for this job, the DR's are just a lot more likely to hang around.


If you think there's a only 1% difference in the ability to manouevre a fast cav unit that a flying skirmisher unit, then you're an idiot. I expect you simply haven't really thought about the difference in any great detail, and are too interested in point-scoring to actually employ critical thinking. But I'm sure you can.

I can't believe that you thought the numbers were factual...
I'll go very slowly now for your benefit; The numbers are just an expression of how good both units are at getting into influential positions. Before Harpies became so common Dark Riders where all the rage(everyone will testify to this if you don't believe me) and no one complained that they couldn't fulfill their roles.

EDIT: Okay...after re-reading my post the "slowly" seems very belittling but I'm going to leave it in both as I reminder to myself to take a minute to let the blood cool before posting and as a testament to how irritating you can be to argue with EVC. This isn't our first argument and it's probably not going to be our last! (Laugh or cry or wink, couldn't decide which...)

Here's a hint: the best position to march-block enemy units is from behind them, where they can't attack you or shoot at you without moving.

Oh EVC...now that shows a lack of common sense. Plenty of times the shooting units can see the Harpies in front of them because the Harpies are march blocking the enemies combat blocks, which are ahead of the shooting units in 80% of the games you'll play. (Er...not Dwarves...but then you can't march block them anyway and you probably can't beat their crew with Harpies either..Dark Riders ahoy!)Not to mention troops and artillery without movement penalties, spells, etc, etc.

Harpies are better march-blockers than Dark Riders. You are at the point where you arguing against me just for the sake of arguing against me. That's not a good point to be in, as it makes almost every response of yours nonsensical at best.

Better in what sense? They are cheaper, yes. But they don't fufill a core requirement so that point can rather moot. Now, they are easier to get into position with but if your aiming to march block a certain portion of the enemy army(or even just 1 unit) then both units are perfect for the job. The Harpies are more liable to Panic and Terror, magic missiles and less likely to rally after fleeing. They are also easier to reduce to a US of less than 5 in most circumstances. Really, when you say Harpies are better all you seem to be looking at is points cost+flight, whilst disregarding the disadvantages.

The proof I need is at druchii.net. Go look at the armies employed by the top, most experienced players over there. You'll notice almost all of the "best" armies for the toughest tournament all have a common theme: a hell of a lot of cheap, throwaway units, like Harpies. And yes, Dark Riders too!

You mean like the Chaos Hounds and Marauder Horsemen? Furies and Eagles?
Other armies have access to these type of units, they are all slightly different to Harpies but they all fulfill the same jobs. You are now essentially just saying that all cheap, throw away units are bad for the game. But they aren't, are they? They are a nice counter to Deathstars, the always popular heavy cavalry and other assorted nastinesss.

I do applaud putting the "best", we both know that it's debatable. We also both know that in general, block infantry is frowned upon. It's not at all surprising that you would see a plethora of Fast Cavalry and Flyers. (I would also expect 10-30 Rxbmen in most tourny lists too...)

As an aside: I doubt the legitimacy of using Druchii.net as an example of premier Druchii players. I left that site many moons ago becuase it was flooded by all the new DE players wanting to know how to play the game...I'm sure lot's of veterans still go there but to me the site's tacticas and lists are no more interesting than Warseers. (That says a lot, doesn't it?)

Of course, you can ignore my rational arguments, and you can ignore the top players at the top Dark Elf site as well... that's certainly par for the course.

To be fair, an aweful lot of your rational arguments are just condescending gibberish. ;) I take your point about Harpies being;

A: Cheaper than Dark Riders.
B: Faster/more maneuverable than Dark Riders.
I'm not debating those, those are facts. I just want you to see that those are the advantages that go hand in hand with Harpies other weaknesses(comapred to Dark Riders of course), and that in no way do Harpies ruin/spoil WHFB. General trains of thought like "Infantry sucks" and "We need more Power Dice!/Heavy Cavalry/Monsters" ruin WHFB. (In my opinion of course, although I detest the Swedish "comp system" just in case you're thinking about bringing it up.)


For 2/3 of the cost. They do some things better and some things worse, of course.

Now you start agreeing with me...just after the text wall above and all... You are very perplexing. Cheaper, slightly riskier units. But people don't mind risky units that only cost 55 points.

Agreed with in general. A Dark Elf general would have a hard time in deciding between 2 x Dark Riders or 3 x Harpies, but a general general would certainly pick 3 x Harpies over 3 x Great Eagles (+15 points) every time. The Dark Elf general would just shrug anyway, knowing he can take 2 x Dark Riders and 3 x Harpies, without impacting his ability to take some decent rare choices as well.

Ok, I'm going to assume that you meant to say High Elf or Wood Elf general instead of general general. While I'm not going to debate that in too much detail, I would like to point out that I was making the assumption that if you where to swap Eagles for Harpies then both would be army book respective choices. (So unlimited core Eagles and rare Harpies) Now instead of 2~3 5 man Harpy units, you would see 2~3 Eagles. Instead of 1~2 Eagles, you would see 1~2 5 man Harpy units. Essentially, nothing has changed has it?

Currently, only the Wood Elves really struggle to fit a great multiple Eagle's(you could just replace all mentions of Eagles and Harpies with "cheap throw-away flying unit) in, but considering that they are almost pure-skirmishers/fast cav and have more special rules than the Dark Elf and High Elf book combined...:angel:

Absolutely. Personally I'd like a limit on them like 1 unit can be taken as core (not true core), and one extra unit per unit of Corsairs. Would make Corsairs seen more often as well, which would be nice.

Well, now we are getting into wish listing(inevitable?) but I'd like to see 1(non-true core) unit + 1 per unit/character with the Khainite rule. If I remember correctly Harpies are meant to be an aspect of Khaine. (Also, Khainte units are about as rare as Corsairs!)

Flight is one of the worst aspects of the game at present IMO, but mostly for flying monsters, not really for Harpies. Harpies do not break the game or its mechanics, but armies that take advantage of them to the fullest extent do take it a bit too far towards avoidancehammer. The synergy with the rest of the list makes them very nasty indeed.

That's all very true, but in fairness, this isn't a new phenomenon. It's pretty much the same as the all cavalry WoC lists, the Bret lists with no Peasants(or the RAF army...), the previous editions Skink list of Doom(ugh, that was a nasty, horrible thing...) and the "magic-heavy-but-if-you-get-close-to-me-my Bloodthirster-will-eat-your-soul" DoC armies. :angel: In the competitive tournaments, people just don't want to risk an even~ish combat.

Heh...I still need filler.

wysiwyg
11-08-2009, 16:00
Ill agree and disagree with that statement.

I feel that high elves can totally compete with most dark elf armies, but i will agree that i feel dark elves are slightly better overal.

General advanages
De:
Hatred - pretty awesome army special rule. One small downside to it is being forced to pursue.
Better low strength shooting. Put simply shades and Rxbmen totally rock the socks off of archers and shadow warriors theres no comparison what so ever.
Better fast cav.
Solid magic items.
better magic defense.
core fliers.

HE:
ASF army wide. this will mean your he units will beat most de units without asf. Yes black guard are amazing, and will kill most he units 1v1 but thats not what im talking about in this particular instance.
Non stupid heavy cav, always a plus :)
Better magic users.
Non stupid chariots.
some pretty good items.
Slightly better spearmen.

i think thats a fair assesment. He are at a disadvantage vs most dark elf armies, but its not a unwinnable game by anymeans.

While I wouldn't say any matchup is unwinnable I think the DE have a clear advantage here.

Consider of your high elf advantages that
A) Stupidity- while occasionally painful often turns out to be a non-issue. (especially if there is a dreadlord nearby) So not being stupid doesn't do much.

B) Magic Items - the high elves do have some good items, but none are inexpensive game changers like the pendant or ring of hotek.

C) ASF and better spearmen - I feel these go together because they are the same issue. The high elves do have better close combat units in a fair fight. ASF spearmen would beat almost all dark elf infantry as is. However, dark elves have the option to take or tool up units that beat anything the HE can throw at them. The only dark elf close combat units I run into regularly are ASF blackguard, assassin delivery, hydra, or a dragon. Each of those units can defeat the most elite HE infantry blocks, some even if double teamed by more expensive units. So while a HE player may have to greatly alter their strategy to get around the ring of hotek or blackguard, there are few threats in the HE army that can't be killed by charging a hydra in.

fubukii
11-08-2009, 16:16
While I wouldn't say any matchup is unwinnable I think the DE have a clear advantage here.

Consider of your high elf advantages that
A) Stupidity- while occasionally painful often turns out to be a non-issue. (especially if there is a dreadlord nearby) So not being stupid doesn't do much.

B) Magic Items - the high elves do have some good items, but none are inexpensive game changers like the pendant or ring of hotek.

C) ASF and better spearmen - I feel these go together because they are the same issue. The high elves do have better close combat units in a fair fight. ASF spearmen would beat almost all dark elf infantry as is. However, dark elves have the option to take or tool up units that beat anything the HE can throw at them. The only dark elf close combat units I run into regularly are ASF blackguard, assassin delivery, hydra, or a dragon. Each of those units can defeat the most elite HE infantry blocks, some even if double teamed by more expensive units. So while a HE player may have to greatly alter their strategy to get around the ring of hotek or blackguard, there are few threats in the HE army that can't be killed by charging a hydra in.

i agree de are at a advantage Mostly because of the volume of shots they can dish out. Hydras are pretty good, but can be hurt well by your dragon riders/firemages even a dragon prince charge or elite infantry in cc can hurt them ( a 5 wide unit of princes can probably kill both handlers and do a wound to the hydra, hydra will kill 2 back probably, thus losing combat by 1-2 points and probably runniing) The Breathe weapons really mangles elf infantry though which is a pain. But the issue is the RXB is insanely effective vs all high elf units minus the star dragon. Even dragon princes/PG drop to rxb fire fairly well.

As for dragons annd the such to be fair dark elves have trouble dealing with your star dragon as well. Anything short of a pendant lord (which will have trouble catching a flying monster) will probably not fair so well vs it.

sulla
11-08-2009, 22:20
The sad thing for me is the change in the armies capabilities. In 6th edition, while both armies were generally pretty poor vs other armies, barring a few limited builds, they matched up very well vs each other, forcing really tense confrontations that were extremely brutal knock down, drag out fights.

In 7th edition, because of each army's special rules, fights become extremely one sided.

In general, DE infantry is completely outclassed by HE infantry to the extent that it is not even worth bringing it. But this completely changes when you add an assassin to the unit, or add the ASF banner to i6 troops, when the balance changes so far to the other end of the spectrum that the HE infantry are basically free vp's for them.

All psychology liabilites basically dissapear from the HE army meaning that massed shooting becomes more useful than 'enough' shooting for the DE player similar to the way they have to vs chaos since they can't rely on panic clearing away marauder horse now.

Similar with magic. DE have defenses capable of completely neutering enemy magic, so they can go the defensive route and if the HE player goes magic heavy (one of his strengths), he is completely shut down.

I just think the two armies make a poor match up at the moment. DE have some units that are very poor vs HE but DE can simply leave these out of their army and play with units that totally outclass their counterparts. HE can be competitive, but have to rely on lesser seen units like multiple chariots, fast cav and fighter lords to replace their normally rock solid infantry and magic.

Emeraldw
11-08-2009, 22:40
Sulla is correct about Assassins and HE infantry. You can reliably bet 3 (or more with gifts) elves will drop before ASF kicks in and that will hurt the offense. When Dark Elves get to strike back with the rest of their troops, they can be quite brutal, hatred is an awesome rule after all.

The one point I disagree on is the extent to which HE infantry outclasses Dark Elf ones. Shooting is clearly in the DE's favor so it isn't worth mentioning. Normal DE warriors aren't bad and can be a fair fight straight up as hatred helps balance out the ASF and Martial Prowess to an extent. Also DE Spearmen are 2 points cheaper with shield so they can have more. I won't talk about Executioners as that is a different issue.

Swordmasters and Black Guard though do represent what you are talking about. Without ASF BG are no match for Swordmasters but add in that banner and suddenly the mighty swordmasters are no match for them AND BG are cheaper as well as maintaining other advantages. For me, Black Guard AND the banner are the real issue when comparing infantry as BG suddenly become unstoppable with one banner and assassins just magnify this. The only HE infantry that compares is PG with their 4++ and I6 but one round of bad rolling and they can go away. While BG can hold out being ItP And Stubborn.

To summarize I agree to an extent with Sulla. The matchup isn't ideal atm as DE's can abuse the high elves weaknesses and can negate their strengths while High Elves lack this option without having to go into spamming some of the best options in the HE book (Dragons, Princes, Lion chariots).

Draconian77
12-08-2009, 02:15
In general, DE infantry is completely outclassed by HE infantry to the extent that it is not even worth bringing it. But this completely changes when you add an assassin to the unit, or add the ASF banner to i6 troops, when the balance changes so far to the other end of the spectrum that the HE infantry are basically free vp's for them.

Thats both true and sad. No Assassin or Banner of Hag Graef? Well...lets just put this unit in the corner shall we... On the other hand, add either and suddenly the T3 HE look like meals on wheels...

All psychology liabilites basically dissapear from the HE army meaning that massed shooting becomes more useful than 'enough' shooting for the DE player similar to the way they have to vs chaos since they can't rely on panic clearing away marauder horse now.

At least they get a buff against the Fear/Terror aspects of the DE army. I have to say though, re-rolls to hit after the first round areb't worth squat. The combats just don't last long enough one way or the other...:D

Similar with magic. DE have defenses capable of completely neutering enemy magic, so they can go the defensive route and if the HE player goes magic heavy (one of his strengths), he is completely shut down.

Poppycock. I agree that the Ring of Hotek is an excellent item but it only "shuts down" about 50% of the armies out there. (List somewhere on this site with stats and stuff...) Anyway, the gist of it is, if you come up against the DE Ring with your magic heavy army just choose lots of 5/6/7+ magic missiles. They will actually cause a significant amount of damage. Obviously not as much as if they One Ring wasn't present, but a lot nonetheless.

I just think the two armies make a poor match up at the moment. DE have some units that are very poor vs HE but DE can simply leave these out of their army and play with units that totally outclass their counterparts. HE can be competitive, but have to rely on lesser seen units like multiple chariots, fast cav and fighter lords to replace their normally rock solid infantry and magic.

I think it's a shame that both Tironic Chariots and Cold One Chariots aren't seen more often...in general, yeah, tailored DE beat HE 8/10 times. In a tournament setting, probably about 6/4? 5/5? You just can't be sure. I certainly think that HE can be problematic, I find them more problematic than Brets or Lizards for example, but I don't list tailor or use ~really~ competitive lists so again...tinted glasses and all that.

I have to stop quoting people...

LKHERO
12-08-2009, 03:02
In terms of DE vs HE, the only thing I would say the HE has over DE is the Star Dragon. Everything else is just mediocre or made mediocre by DE's ridiculous items.

DE has some of the best core choices in the game; cheap Spearmen with Hatred, Dark Riders are absolutely amazing. DE has THE best rare choice in the game; Hydras. DE has some of the cheapest, most effective items in the game. There's so many that I can't be hassled to name them. Everyone knows what they are and everyone takes them because they're absolutely amazing. This goes from simple magic items, to weapons, armor, talismans, and magical banners.

If it wasn't for these damn items, DE wouldn't be so hard to fight against. It's these items that really makes them over the top in comparison to HE; which has some of the worst items in the game specifically speaking from point vs effectiveness.

Draconian77
12-08-2009, 04:24
In terms of DE vs HE, the only thing I would say the HE has over DE is the Star Dragon. Everything else is just mediocre or made mediocre by DE's ridiculous items.

That seem's like a ludicrous assumption...

DE has some of the best core choices in the game; cheap Spearmen with Hatred, Dark Riders are absolutely amazing.

Well, I'm not sure if they are absolutely amzing...they are a decent(best, if not then second/third best) fast cavalry unit in the game. Aren't they just Marauder Horsemen with Hatred, +1Ld, no access to Marks and out dated models?

DE has THE best rare choice in the game; Hydras.

There you go assuming again, for most people the "best" rare choice in the game are Flamers of Tzeentch. Personally, I don't understand peoples obsession with the word "best".

DE has some of the cheapest, most effective items in the game. There's so many that I can't be hassled to name them. Everyone knows what they are and everyone takes them because they're absolutely amazing. This goes from simple magic items, to weapons, armor, talismans, and magical banners.

Or specifically; Ring/Pendant/Dagger/Hag Graef.
Yup, you will normally see at least 2~3 in a normal DE list.
All armies have no brainer items to be honest, it's just a product of poor game design. Out of all of them, only the Ring is amazing. (Magic defense without having to go magic heavy is blissful, but only because WHFB magic phase/system is so screwed up...)

If it wasn't for these damn items, DE wouldn't be so hard to fight against. It's these items that really makes them over the top in comparison to HE; which has some of the worst items in the game specifically speaking from point vs effectiveness.

Half the armies in the game wouldn't be hard to fight against if they didn't have access to their items/gifts/bloodline powers, etc. The High Elf items are not that bad, but they do seem more geared towards character protection and a powerful magic phase.

Nope, still quoting folks...

sulla
12-08-2009, 07:45
I have to stop quoting people...I can't believe you said poppycock... I probably should have been more specific (although you were the one who assumed I only meant the ring...shame on you, naughty boy).

It's easy enough to construct an impregnable DE defense. 2-3 heroes with MR1-2-3, plus the ring to take out irresistable force makes slim pickings for any magical army. Or for a higher risk strategy, you could go for mally or shadowblade to neuter enemy mages, or fling an assassin at them. While it's true that elves are probably the most vulnerable armies in warhammer to magic, I'm pretty confident my DE can build a magical defense to rival any in the game.

Draconian77
12-08-2009, 15:03
Poppycock is a legitimate expression...well, legitimate~ish.

The Null Talismans are nice, but having them on characters does prevent said characters from having things like the Ring, the Pendant, the other Ring(of Darkness) and so on and so forth. Obviously enough you also get less protection/offense because now you are using 35~20pts on magic sticks and cloth instead of 50pts.

At least the unit Champions can do some of the work for us though. :angel:

To be fair, most armies can build an impressive magic defense if they want(generally speaking, 2 caddies+trinkets), it's just a little more expensive that way.

Draconian77
12-08-2009, 15:06
Poppycock is a legitimate expression...well, legitimate~ish.

The Null Talismans are nice, but having them on characters does prevent said characters from having things like the Ring, the Pendant, the other Ring(of Darkness) and so on and so forth. Obviously enough you also get less protection/offense because now you are using 35~20pts on magic sticks and cloth instead of 50pts.

At least the unit Champions can do some of the work for us though. :angel:

To be fair, most armies can build an impressive magic defense if they want(generally speaking, 2 caddies+trinkets), it's just a little more expensive that way.

I'm don't really think the big M. or Shadowblade are cost effective myself, but then I'm anti-SC anyway so a giant "meh" on that issue.

LKHERO
12-08-2009, 17:57
Nope, still quoting folks...

Your ludicrous statement is proven wrong by my 27-0 record with DE; and these are playing against tournament class players playing power lists. Even when I try to go soft on my opponents; by say taking 1 Hydra instead of 2, or dropping my Black Dragon, or going other core than Dark Riders, I still managed to come up on top. I must say that the only armies in the game that I have remote problems with are crazy Daemon lists or 14pd, well constructed VC armies.

Items that I find ridiculous for their cost off the top of my head.
Pearl of Darkness
Ring of Hotek
Pendant of Kaeleth
Crimson Death
Banner of Hag Graef
GW that's armor piercing
That 25-point item that makes a unit immune to psychology.

Units that I find ridiculous for their cost:
Hydra
Dark Riders
Shades
Black Guard

The items make up for the apparent weaknesses that certain units have. Scared of getting shot to death? Pearl of Darkness. Need ASF to an entire unit? Hag Graef. Have both of them on Black Guard for less points than a normal High Elf 20x Sword Masters w/ FC? WHAT?

I can't seem to understand why people think DE are equal to HE. HE units are priced much higher and don't have the magical items to compensate for such a thing.

I play both armies, competitively, at high levels and in local tournies. I can tell you straight up that I find winning with HE more rewarding; because I have to work for it. For Dark Elves, no way, not even close. Maybe in last edition yes, but now they're stupid easy to play by anyone who can min-max.

fubukii
12-08-2009, 21:17
I think shades while powerful arent ridiculous. i think the issue is other scouts arent good and are over costed.

Hydra i willgive you

Black guard are powerful with the asf banner, a unit without isnt so bad
Dark riders are about the same as other fast cav, so i dont see a huge issue. More of a problem with long bows not being good.

i will agree dark elves have some awesome magic items to say the least, they loaded. Hes have some great items but mostly defensive.

LKHERO
12-08-2009, 21:50
Maybe it's because I have Shadow Warriors so I'm bitter.

sulla
12-08-2009, 21:51
I can't seem to understand why people think DE are equal to HE.

Which people? That's an awfully large blanket you're throwing over the entire population of the earth...

I play both armies, competitively, at high levels and in local tournies. I can tell you straight up that I find winning with HE more rewarding; because I have to work for it. :eyebrows: I find it much easier to beat VC with HE than DE. But i find more reward playing my DE as they (even with all their buffs) still need to charge to win generally. Whereas my HE can blast the enemy from range withharder to stop magic either through Tec or the Book, then redirect the remnants with a pair of eagles at the last moment and flank charge with whatever elites you held back. You can do the same with DE but only if you ignore the vast majority of the book. I have far more fun playing a DE army that has to go forward and try to create mismatches.

Dark Apostle197
12-08-2009, 23:25
The items make up for the apparent weaknesses that certain units have. Scared of getting shot to death? Pearl of Darkness. Need ASF to an entire unit? Hag Graef. Have both of them on Black Guard for less points than a normal High Elf 20x Sword Masters w/ FC? WHAT?


I assume you mean ring of darkness as that is the hard to shoot one. And in order to have it in black gaurd you have to take a character as it is too expensive to go on the champion...

It seems like people are acting like DE always tailor their lists. "You can take this and this and this and be immune to whatever you want." You can't be immune to everything though as you can't take everything people keep naming to be cheesy. I have been using the same list for every game I play at 2250, people know exactly who has what, what does what.

Draconian77
13-08-2009, 10:42
Your ludicrous statement is proven wrong by my 27-0 record with DE; and these are playing against tournament class players playing power lists.

That's comedy gold. No one goes 27-0 playing against skilled tournament class players...if you can then you should have won a GT by now. ;)

A personal record also does nothing to disprove or prove a theory.

Even when I try to go soft on my opponents; by say taking 1 Hydra instead of 2, or dropping my Black Dragon, or going other core than Dark Riders, I still managed to come up on top. I must say that the only armies in the game that I have remote problems with are crazy Daemon lists or 14pd, well constructed VC armies.

That's very strange, most tournament players don't consider 2 Hydras to be any better than Hydra+Reapers and most tournament players wouldn't go to battle without some Rxbmen.

Items that I find ridiculous for their cost off the top of my head.
Pearl of Darkness

~We don't have an item called the Pearl of Darkness...if you mean the Ring of Darkness then you must be out of your mind!
40pts for that seems like far too much to me. It's only real use is in the creation of a Deathstar. If it said "rounded down" rather than "rounded up" I would agree with you though.

Ring of Hotek

~I really don't see the problem with this, witohut this item most DE builds would have been the same as last edition, shooty-magic heavy avoidance lists. Even then it only works on about 50% of the armies out there and wise lore selection can minimise it's effect against the other 50%.

Pendant of Kaeleth

~So you can make one character hard to kill. But unless he's Unbreakable, does this really matter? "But in a unit of BG!" you say.
Yay, 500+ pts that I won't let my opponent get into combat with. :D

Crimson Death

~What exactly is wrong with this?
It's a GW that doesnt strike last for 6x or 4x the points.

Banner of Hag Graef

~Let me guess, more BG phobia. This is actually just a character buff, the BG with S4 can rarely hurt heavy cavalry, even with ASF. The real power of this banner is to turn our characters into HE characters, deadly with just a great weapon! But only in one unit...

GW that's armor piercing

~Again, I really don't see a problem here. It won't be useful half of them time because S6 would have been enough to negate the save in the first place. Nice vs Brets, Chaos and Dwarves but hardly ridiculous for it's points cost.

That 25-point item that makes a unit immune to psychology.

~What's wrong with this? By this sort of measuring stick you must think that the Mark of Slaanesh is broken as hell...

Units that I find ridiculous for their cost:
Hydra

~Lovely for it's points cost, but it can't go up against heavy troops or heavy cavalry.

Dark Riders

~They are just core fast cavalry. They are only a little better than Marauder Horsemen in my opinion and a lot of tournament players actually rate the MArauder Horsemen as better for the following reasons;

~Horselord rule.
~Much more customisable.
~More important in the WoC army than a DE army.

Shades

~As fubukii says, I think this is more a case of most other Scouts sucking rather than Shades being too good.

Black Guard

~Only with the Banner of Hag Graef and character support does a unit of BG truly become unbeatable. At that point you can just use the same tricks that we all use for dodging infantry. These ones are slightly easier to migitate because they have Hatred too.

The items make up for the apparent weaknesses that certain units have. Scared of getting shot to death? Pearl of Darkness. Need ASF to an entire unit? Hag Graef. Have both of them on Black Guard for less points than a normal High Elf 20x Sword Masters w/ FC? WHAT?

Who takes 20x Sword Masters with full command? That doesn't seem like a decent way to use Swordmasters at all...You can't protect everything from everything in an all comers list, it's that simple.

You also certainly can not get both of those items onto a unit of BG for less than 20 Swordmasters...

I can't seem to understand why people think DE are equal to HE. HE units are priced much higher and don't have the magical items to compensate for such a thing.

Priced much higher? By my reckoning they are priced "a little higher" and some of their units are better than ours, even running through the list quickly gives me this;

Tiranoc Chariot better than Cold One Chariot.
Dragon Princes better than Cold One Knights.
Phoenix Guard/White Lions/Swordmaster -> All viable choices.
Black Guard/Witch Elves/Executioners ->Only one choice is really viable for competitive play.
->HE, better offensive magic.
->DE, better defensive magic.
->Stardragon better than everything. ;)
etc, etc

For the record, I don't think that the HE are on the same level as the DE, but I don't think that the HE list is trash by comparison by a long shot.

I play both armies, competitively, at high levels and in local tournies. I can tell you straight up that I find winning with HE more rewarding; because I have to work for it. For Dark Elves, no way, not even close. Maybe in last edition yes, but now they're stupid easy to play by anyone who can min-max.

If you think that then fine, but remember that that doesn't make it true.


Pink filler.

nzdarkelf
13-08-2009, 11:19
In the last edition not only were Dark Elves a hard army to play with, but we had to use Ravening Hordes for at least two years longer than High Elves. So for all that time, my Lord had the seriously dangerous Sword of Battle and the Sword of Might to chose between, while his newly To3 body got his armour boost from the Enchanted Shield. My magic users were forced to be scroll caddies cause apart from power stones there wasn't really anything else to give them. And of course we only had one magic banner available - the War Banner. Man my opponents used to lay awake at night scared ******** before our games!

So Dark Elves kick **** now - get over it. My last game I lost a 3rd of my force to a Casket of Souls on turn one. I could have cried like the non Dark Elf players here (I sure felt like doing so), but I'm not a baby.

Grow up!!! If you want 'balanced' armies, buy Warhammer Ancients and play Roman Civil War matches.

Emeraldw
13-08-2009, 16:12
In the last edition not only were Dark Elves a hard army to play with, but we had to use Ravening Hordes for at least two years longer than High Elves. So for all that time, my Lord had the seriously dangerous Sword of Battle and the Sword of Might to chose between, while his newly To3 body got his armour boost from the Enchanted Shield. My magic users were forced to be scroll caddies cause apart from power stones there wasn't really anything else to give them. And of course we only had one magic banner available - the War Banner. Man my opponents used to lay awake at night scared ******** before our games!

So Dark Elves kick **** now - get over it. My last game I lost a 3rd of my force to a Casket of Souls on turn one. I could have cried like the non Dark Elf players here (I sure felt like doing so), but I'm not a baby.

Grow up!!! If you want 'balanced' armies, buy Warhammer Ancients and play Roman Civil War matches.


You don't help your point, also you sound very aggressive. Far more than you should if this is merely a game. Besides, I do not believe that it is too much to ask for fairly balanced armies. Finally, your in the tactics forum, THIS IS WHAT WE DO.



~Lovely for it's points cost, but it can't go up against heavy troops or heavy cavalry.


WHAT!? I am sorry Draconian, I understand you want to defend your dark elves as not being the broken army. But come on, even you have to admit the hydra is retarded for its points cost. And your defense I have quoted above is just ridiculous. Anyone can see that 7 Str 5 attacks with hatred is enough to crunch almost any cavalry in the game and regeneration helps against the knights high str on the charge. That isn't even including the 4 extra str 3 attacks With AP. Str 5 makes it a 4+ and 6 wounds (not hard with hatred and wounding on a 2+) will kill 3 knights. Also, you can put the hydra in a forest or other difficult terrain making it difficult for knights to want to charge you. Even if they win they could be stuck in Difficult terrain. Finally the AP makes the knights a 3+ and anyone who has played marines can tell you that it fails more often than you would think.

I am willing to listen to your points but quite frankly you are grasping for straws with some of these things and even you must admit that put together, the army list might not be VC or DoC, but they are certainly better than the rest.

fubukii
13-08-2009, 17:50
if a hydra charges it should be able to beat most 2+ save t3 knights without much trouble, it will suffer vs the 1+ save knights and t4 kind though.

Generally though knights should be charging the hydra not the other way around.

LKHERO
13-08-2009, 19:25
@ Draconian77

If you don't see a problem with Ring of Hotek at 25 points you're out of your mind. Do you even know the effect it has against armies with magic? RoH makes spells cast with 3 die commit a 44% miscast rate; and 72% at 4 dice. On anything within 12" of the ring. That can be carried on unit champions. Seriously?

I'm not even going to argue the rest of your pink garbage because you don't seem to understand how powerful the items are in your own book. I'll sum it up for you, in 3 key points to note why Dark Elves are SUPERIOR than High Elves; which is what this thread is about.

1. Key items are seriously underpriced and allows for ridiculous item combinations.
2. The ridiculous item combinations themselves. e.g. Black Guard w/ ASF Banner
3. The Hydra at 175 is an abomination of game balance.

fubukii
13-08-2009, 19:58
@ Draconian77

If you don't see a problem with Ring of Hotek at 25 points you're out of your mind. Do you even know the effect it has against armies with magic? RoH makes spells cast with 3 die commit a 44% miscast rate; and 72% at 4 dice. On anything within 12" of the ring. That can be carried on unit champions. Seriously?

I'm not even going to argue the rest of your pink garbage because you don't seem to understand how powerful the items are in your own book. I'll sum it up for you, in 3 key points to note why Dark Elves are SUPERIOR than High Elves; which is what this thread is about.

1. Key items are seriously underpriced and allows for ridiculous item combinations.
2. The ridiculous item combinations themselves. e.g. Black Guard w/ ASF Banner
3. The Hydra at 175 is an abomination of game balance.

Ring of hotek is amazing, it isnt good vs vc or single/2d6 casting armies but vs 3d6/4d6 spells its downright gamebreaking. This item comboed with Null tailsmens can make a unit almost imune to magic.

As for the hydra its under pointed.

As for He/d debate all high elf units come with ASF base and will beat any de unit normally without those items.

willowdark
13-08-2009, 20:28
This thread was a lot more interesting when we were debating with EvC over Harpies vs Eagles. The debate had more substance and was handled more maturely.

LKHERO is a childish hater and his buzz words are making me nauseous.

Words like "ridiculous" and "seriously" are nothing more than "assurance" words used to make your points _sound_ like absolute facts when really they're just your opinion.

SilentStalker
13-08-2009, 20:36
I play HE and pretty much whenever I face DE it ends up being a bloodbath. Nobody tends to take DE power builds, so I would say for balanced armies, DE and HE are pretty evenly matched.

Emeraldw
13-08-2009, 21:09
Words like "ridiculous" and "seriously" are nothing more than "assurance" words used to make your points _sound_ like absolute facts when really they're just your opinion.

An opinion shared by others though. Not to the same extent, but what he has been saying isn't *wrong* just exaggerated. Though I wonder at what point an opinion stops being an opinion and becomes fact.


I play HE and pretty much whenever I face DE it ends up being a bloodbath. Nobody tends to take DE power builds, so I would say for balanced armies, DE and HE are pretty evenly matched.

I disagree as I believe that Dark Elves do indeed have the advantage over high elves in many areas and can negate the strengths of high elves while attacking their weaknesses. This discussion however is largely theoretical as testing things can be difficult due to many factors and the sheer amount of time it takes to do it. Now power builds we do have some data as you can see the results of tournaments where it pretty much consists of VC, DoC and DE's. Balanced lists though are harder as, what is a balanced list?

willowdark
13-08-2009, 21:21
It's not necessarily his opinions I object to, just the overtly aggravated way he presents them. It drags down the quality of the debate.

I do agree that Dark Elves as a book is a a fair distance ahead of High Elves, but to be fair, High Elves can put up a good fight. This all seems rather backwards however since the thread began by an assumption that DE couldn't compete against HE. We should be looking for an even middle ground and not rocking wildly back and forth between extremes.

LKHERO
13-08-2009, 21:31
It's not necessarily his opinions I object to, just the overtly aggravated way he presents them. It drags down the quality of the debate.

I do agree that Dark Elves as a book is a a fair distance ahead of High Elves, but to be fair, High Elves can put up a good fight. This all seems rather backwards however since the thread began by an assumption that DE couldn't compete against HE. We should be looking for an even middle ground and not rocking wildly back and forth between extremes.

The quality of the debate ended somewhere on page 1. Man up a bit please.


We should be looking for an even middle ground and not rocking wildly back and forth between extremes.

There's no such thing in Warhammer. That's why there are army tiers.

deggaroth
13-08-2009, 21:39
Ring of hotek is amazing, it isnt good vs vc or single/2d6 casting armies but vs 3d6/4d6 spells its downright gamebreaking. This item comboed with Null tailsmens can make a unit almost imune to magic.


The problem I have with the ring of hotek 'cheese cries', relates to Fubukii's statement above. I agree with him that against 3d6/4d6 spells, ring of Hotek is gamebreaking. However, about a couple years ago, I remember getting on these thread, and hearing the apostles of whineseer say how certain armies are cheesey because they spam 3d6/4d6 spells. Now, that the Ring of Hotek is discouraging people from fielding those armies, it's all of a sudden pure cheese? :eyebrows:

Anyway, back to the original topic, I think that High Elves and Dark Elves are approximately equal. Sure, Dark Elves can create an unstoppable unit by putting an Asassin in their ASF BG, but High Elves can solve this problem by solving it the same way I solved the Swordmaster problem back in 6th ed. Field about 4 Bolt throwers and shoot the living pooh out of them; when they get to close, mop them up with your chariots. Isn't that how HE, and all other elven armies for that matter, function anyway, by not meeting the enemy on his terms?

LKHERO
13-08-2009, 21:54
Anyway, back to the original topic, I think that High Elves and Dark Elves are approximately equal. Sure, Dark Elves can create an unstoppable unit by putting an Asassin in their ASF BG, but High Elves can solve this problem by solving it the same way I solved the Swordmaster problem back in 6th ed. Field about 4 Bolt throwers and shoot the living pooh out of them; when they get to close, mop them up with your chariots. Isn't that how HE, and all other elven armies for that matter, function anyway, by not meeting the enemy on his terms?

Why would anyone put an Assassin with BG? The BG runs with Hag Graef and the Assassin goes in a unit that looks the weakest; like a 20x Spearmen or 10x RxB anchor somewhere on the BG's flank.

The BG itself is normally the army anchor. No one will want to engage such a thing. They'll run their heavy cav into something that looks puny and weak, like Spears or Shades and get murdered by an Assassin. I don't know. I might be overestimating the general DE populace.

Shooting is a good option vs. DE, just not at Shades or BG because of that Ring of Darkness BSB. And good luck killing Hydras with RBT.


The problem I have with the ring of hotek 'cheese cries', relates to Fubukii's statement above. I agree with him that against 3d6/4d6 spells, ring of Hotek is gamebreaking. However, about a couple years ago, I remember getting on these thread, and hearing the apostles of whineseer say how certain armies are cheesey because they spam 3d6/4d6 spells. Now, that the Ring of Hotek is discouraging people from fielding those armies, it's all of a sudden pure cheese?

Just saw this edit. No, it's not pure cheese, but against High Elves its severely limiting. This is a thread dictated around the HE vs DE matchup; and everyone always mentions that DE is defensive magic and HE is offensive magic. This is absolutely true; except for the fact that DE completely shuts down HE magic because Archmages, Teclis or even simple Lv.2s cannot get past the Ring of Hotek, or worse if they have Null Talismans. Can someone tell me how is it remotely fair if a 25-point item shuts down HE's magic phase? For those people that just read with theory and don't realize that I speak from experience with both armies is what really puts me off. HE is a army that casts with 3-4 dice. That's how they're designed, and that's how they're effective in Magic. That's why vs. DE, a Star Dragon is a no brainer because magic is not an option.

An example of this would be my standard HE play:
Lv.4 Archmage
Lv.2 Mage
BSB or Korhil

Are you saying I have to tailoring my entire play because my 535 points worth of magic (that's fine against other armies) falters to 25 points of item that can be carried on a unit champion?
Check out the Ulthuan and Durchii forums for more inside detail on this match-up. You'll find it quite amusing.

sulla
13-08-2009, 22:47
An example of this would be my standard HE play:
Lv.4 Archmage
Lv.2 Mage
BSB or Korhil

Are you saying I have to tailoring my entire play because my 535 points worth of magic (that's fine against other armies) falters to 25 points of item that can be carried on a unit champion?
Of course, without the ring, you would probably start the first magic phase by destroying the ASF banner with an irresistable Vaul's, then maybe a flames of the phoenix to kill a handler on the hydra and panic it off the board while the other mage blasts a fury of khaine or two (if he has the ring) at a unit and halves it... You would get one game like this against your DE opponent then next game, you would face a magic heavy avoidance army full of assassins. So removing the ring doesn't solve anything for you, it just forces the other guy to leave his fighters at home for more dispel dice and scrolls, which in turn forces him to avoid combat blocks in favour of disruption and shooting. It's not a real solution. At least the ring allows a decent defence without resorting to caddies. You shouldn't be kncking it; you should demand something similar in all elite fragile armies IMO. (Of course, daemons already have access to decent defense in the form of core horrors and the sundering standard, so it's really only woodies and HE who need something decent and cheap).

fubukii
13-08-2009, 23:04
Of course, without the ring, you would probably start the first magic phase by destroying the ASF banner with an irresistable Vaul's, then maybe a flames of the phoenix to kill a handler on the hydra and panic it off the board while the other mage blasts a fury of khaine or two (if he has the ring) at a unit and halves it... You would get one game like this against your DE opponent then next game, you would face a magic heavy avoidance army full of assassins. So removing the ring doesn't solve anything for you, it just forces the other guy to leave his fighters at home for more dispel dice and scrolls, which in turn forces him to avoid combat blocks in favour of disruption and shooting. It's not a real solution. At least the ring allows a decent defence without resorting to caddies. You shouldn't be kncking it; you should demand something similar in all elite fragile armies IMO. (Of course, daemons already have access to decent defense in the form of core horrors and the sundering standard, so it's really only woodies and HE who need something decent and cheap).

this may be the smartest and most sensible post in the existance of all of warseer.

If he and we had better ways to get magic defense while taking melee characters like DE the whole meta game would be better.

LKHERO
14-08-2009, 00:50
Of course, without the ring, you would probably start the first magic phase by destroying the ASF banner with an irresistable Vaul's, then maybe a flames of the phoenix to kill a handler on the hydra and panic it off the board while the other mage blasts a fury of khaine or two (if he has the ring) at a unit and halves it... You would get one game like this against your DE opponent then next game, you would face a magic heavy avoidance army full of assassins. So removing the ring doesn't solve anything for you, it just forces the other guy to leave his fighters at home for more dispel dice and scrolls, which in turn forces him to avoid combat blocks in favour of disruption and shooting. It's not a real solution. At least the ring allows a decent defence without resorting to caddies. You shouldn't be kncking it; you should demand something similar in all elite fragile armies IMO. (Of course, daemons already have access to decent defense in the form of core horrors and the sundering standard, so it's really only woodies and HE who need something decent and cheap).

I just don't see a reason to not take the ring, ever. It's that good. Why handicap yourself?

Draconian77
14-08-2009, 04:09
Wow, you guys really went at it on my off day. :D

I'll just try to respond to everything as efficiently as possible.

@LKHERO
With regards to your 3 points.

1: By "key items" you only mean the Ring.
2: Black Guard with ASF aren't invincible game winners. They are block infantry(you know, the kind of unit that nearly everyone agrees are less-than-optimal at a competitive level...) with Hatred and T3.
3: The Hydra is too cheap, but it is hardly an "abomination of game balance". By the averages, it loses to heavy infantry(it charging) and heavy cavalry(it being charged). It is not stubborn/unbreakable nor does it fly. Taking 2 leaves you vulrenable to Dragon/GD lists.

Now, with regards to the Ring which seems to be your biggest gripe;

A: sulla already put into essay form what I said 16 posts ago. Without the Ring, Dark Elves would always have a lot of offensive magic because it would be necessary for the defensive magic that elven armies so desperately need.



For those people that just read with theory and don't realize that I speak from experience with both armies is what really puts me off. HE is a army that casts with 3-4 dice. That's how they're designed, and that's how they're effective in Magic.

It would amuse me to see you attempt to verify that point.

You can switch to low-difficulty lores or lores with decent default spells. Doing so will allow you to use most of your magic. Will it be as powerful? Of course not. Will it be neutered completely? Definately not. It sounds like you don't switch your strategy when faced with the Ring, that's a tactical problem, not a balance problem in my eyes.

The Lore of Beasts has some nice and effective low casting value spells, as does the Lore of Light. These are common lore choices around here when someone comes up against the Ring.


Shooting is a good option vs. DE, just not at Shades or BG because of that Ring of Darkness BSB.

Why on earth isn't shooting a good option against Black Guard? Do you know just how few lists run the Ring of Darkness? That is not a common item in a standard competitive DE list.


I just don't see a reason to not take the ring, ever. It's that good. Why handicap yourself?

By not taking the Ring you can now go magic heavy.
Being magic heavy you will automatically produce more magic defense so the Ring isn't required. (Say 6+ DD and 2+ Scrolls)
A strong magic offense can do things that a strong magic defense simply cannot, not to mention that (in general) fighty characters can be avoided but magic using ones cannot.

An example, just in case you don't get it;
If you came up against an Empire gunline(+caddy) having the Ring of Hotek would be useless. Having some Sorcs with Chillwind on the other hand...

SilentStalker
14-08-2009, 04:40
The problem that comes up with the ring is, with a smart DE player they can go magic heavy to pound you then put the ring on, say, a unit champion for the cold one knights. Careful target selection and placement of the ring bearer (sounding like something from LOTR now but that's not the point...) will result in keeping your fast heavy hitters (knights, hydra, chariots...) thundering forward with solid magic defense, and letting your casters blast whatever the heavies are not headed towards. You can easily get lvl 4 and a lvl 2 casting stuff like chillwind to protect your black guard from getting shot at, and don't need to worry much about getting blasted in return

Emeraldw
14-08-2009, 04:56
You could also put your mages on pegasi to give them the mobility to avoid the units with the ring.

Kerill
14-08-2009, 05:11
I have too disagree with draconian's oft repeated myth that the ring of hotek is not effective against 2 dice casts. It makes them 6 more times as likely to miscast meaning a 2 dice spell near the ring is more likely to miscast than a 4 dice spell away from the ring and in fact is much closer to the miscast chance of a 5 dice spell away from the ring. That is a huge difference unless you think casting 4/5 dice spells is usually safe.

16.8% chance of miscast for a weak spell (D6 S4 magic missile typically). Means you will on average miscast by your third two dice cast, which may well wound your mage, end the magic phase or wast that mages remaining dice or mean they lose the spell. Assuming 6 Pd of magic against DE that means a miscast three turns a game caused by the ring and probably some VPs from wounded mages and quite possible additional loss of dice through miscasts. Against 12PD of magic (although its not very likely that many armies will be lucky to get enough useful spells at this level to 2 dice them) its a miscast every turn. It's an insanely broken item, even against the supposedly "harmless" 2 Dice casts. Even going for a low cost lore helps little since as soon as you are getting to 3 dice casts.

A few other points:
1) The ring in no way prevents the DE player from going magic heavy- they just need to ensure the mage is 12" away (or 6" away if they have the focus familiar) and can easily have the unit protected by the ring whilst the sorceress can still cast freely. The reason not to go magic heavy is that the ring allows you to min-max very efficiently.
2) Even that empire scroll caddy casting their spell will probably miscast once per game because of the ring.
3) At 25 points, even if you are playing against dwarves the loss is absolutely tiny.
4) Magic characters are harder to avoid than combat ones but they also tend to be a lot more expensive. Also, they can be hunted down by mage hunters and have the risk of miscasting. By contrast the ring bearer almost can't be hunted at all since almost any unit that charges the black guard will have its front rank annihilated before it strikes and the pendant boy can easily handle any killy lords. To hunt the ring bearer you would need something like a.. hydra.
5) Most M4 block infantry are poor, not deathstars which are remarkably effective, and the black guard are M5, which is a significant boost in terms of getting into combat (typically a turn earlier). With the best concentrated shooting in the game, best light cav and core fliers being march blocked like most M4 infantry isn't much of an issue.


The ring breaks the DE list. DE have the best dragon in the game, more importantly its almost impossible for armies to use magic to counter the dragon. Apparently taking the ring is "skill"

No army needs an item like the ring because no army needs to be broken.

LKHERO
14-08-2009, 05:53
It would amuse me to see you attempt to verify that point.

You can switch to low-difficulty lores or lores with decent default spells. Doing so will allow you to use most of your magic. Will it be as powerful? Of course not. Will it be neutered completely? Definately not. It sounds like you don't switch your strategy when faced with the Ring, that's a tactical problem, not a balance problem in my eyes.

The Lore of Beasts has some nice and effective low casting value spells, as does the Lore of Light. These are common lore choices around here when someone comes up against the Ring.

lol. Do you play High Elves? Do you not see the statistics given about the effects of Ring of Hotek vs. wizards casting with 3-4 dice? Do you not understand that the Archmage, Lv.2 Mage, Teclis, and even the Dragon Mage are big players in the HE army?

How the hell does your reasoning make any sense? Your basically telling me to gimp myself and my entire army over a 25-point item and you think that's just.

I'm done with you. It looks to me that you're just a really poor DE player with no understand of the game's mechanics at all. Even DE players agree that the Ring is way underpriced; as is most of the DE's item selection. If you can't see that, then you're really either bad or just insane. There's no inbetween.

sulla
14-08-2009, 06:34
1) The ring in no way prevents the DE player from going magic heavy- they just need to ensure the mage is 12" away (or 6" away if they have the focus familiar) and can easily have the unit protected by the ring whilst the sorceress can still cast freely. The reason not to go magic heavy is that the ring allows you to min-max very efficiently.
2) Even that empire scroll caddy casting their spell will probably miscast once per game because of the ring.
3) At 25 points, even if you are playing against dwarves the loss is absolutely tiny.
4) Magic characters are harder to avoid than combat ones but they also tend to be a lot more expensive. Also, they can be hunted down by mage hunters and have the risk of miscasting. By contrast the ring bearer almost can't be hunted at all since almost any unit that charges the black guard will have its front rank annihilated before it strikes and the pendant boy can easily handle any killy lords. To hunt the ring bearer you would need something like a.. hydra.
5) Most M4 block infantry are poor, not deathstars which are remarkably effective, and the black guard are M5, which is a significant boost in terms of getting into combat (typically a turn earlier). With the best concentrated shooting in the game, best light cav and core fliers being march blocked like most M4 infantry isn't much of an issue.

The ring breaks the DE list. DE have the best dragon in the game, more importantly its almost impossible for armies to use magic to counter the dragon. Apparently taking the ring is "skill"

No army needs an item like the ring because no army needs to be broken.Nice theoryhammer. Pity it doesn't transfer to the tabletop at all like you spell it out.

1) A magic heavy DE army with the ring has some very big weaknesses. Firstly, the mages are outside the protective zone of the ring...guess what will be getting blasted by enemy magic? Secondly, assuming the enemy plans to get into combat, where is the safest place to aim now? Staight for the ringbearer's unit. That way they are safe from the large investment in DE magic.
2) A warrior priest never will, nor will anything in the TK army, nor will most ogre spells, nor the all important invocation and corpse carts, nor will anything not cast within 12" or at the 12" zone.
3)Unless it's on your dragon lord who could have had the pendant instead...
4)To hunt the ring bearer, the afforementioned empire already has the hochland long rifle, lore of metal #1, characters, especially with VHS or just steam tank the unit to death. Even core knights shoukld be able to do it. Never underestimate the power of suicide knight units...Plenty of other armies can do it easily too. WE have a sniper bow, chaos have buboes and the puppet to mitigate miscasts,any army with US3 monsters can do it if you don't mind losing the unit (like if magic is integral to your gameplan).
5)So your argument is that DE infanty is too powerful as well? Ever played vs a gunline or a chariot heavy army? What are the BG doing in this hyppothetical game? Staying put at the back to keep the crossbowmen in the hotek bubble of moving forward to keep the fast cav and harpies in the bubble? Whichever way, seems the DE player has just presented you with a target for your magic...And that's to say nothing of your claim that DR are the best fast cav in the game...but I'll let that slide.

As for your claim thaqt the DE dragon is the best in the game, I'll assume you meant the whole package. I happen to agree with you there. For the points, and the ability to put excellent protection and a decent punch on the rider, combined with hatred all for a reasonable price, I'd say he edges the other two top dragons; the Star dragon (hindered by rider protection) and the chaos dragon (hindered by huge cost). But not so much that it makes any difference to the ring discussion. The dragon will almost never be in the ring's bubble unless the rider takes it himself, and even then, he loses out on a ward save and loses a lot in combat as a consequence.

Kerill
14-08-2009, 10:41
1) Again comes the myth that sorceresses will be outside the protection of the ring. In a unit it is REMARKABLY easy to ensure that the sorceresses unit is protected by the ring whilst the sorceresses spellcasting is not affected by it.
2) How does this in any way counter what I said? The ring is overpowered against almost every army in the game, the fact that TK and dwarves are unaffected is rather beside the point.
3) Indeed, your point?
4) VHS is of little use against the pendant bearer isn't it? US3 monsters? Now lets assume the DE player isn't a complete tool and has moved the ring bearer to the corner of his 7 wide unit And has to maximise models in combat. The black guard strike first with (assuming bsb, lord) 7 S6 attacks with re-rolls (often much more) and then 11 S4 attacks with re-rolls. Typically though the cauldron will mean they have 9 S6 attacks on 3+ with re-rolls and 16 S4 attacks. W3 infantry will have, on average, a 5+ save:
9 S6 attacks= 6.6 wounds caused. Hochland rifle and buboes (with 16.8% chance to miscast) are possibilities of course, as long as the DE player is either a complete idiot or has an intense dislike of harpies. Yes this cheap and colourful screen will block line of sight to the ring bearer from anything apart from troops on a hill or a slann.
16 S4= 6 wounds caused.

So 4 of the US3 models (or 3 if its dragon ogres) have ceased to exist on contact. That's typically the unit wiped out before attacking. Also since units fill ranks from the middle unless that US3 unit is 7/8 wide there will be nothing left to attack the ringbearer on the end.
I'm not surprised DE players suggest such "tactics", any fool who listens to them will soon regret it.
5) Is this an attempt at the ultimate straw man argument or is there a rule in the DE book that a sorceress can only be placed in a unit of crossbowmen and that that unit is unable to move as a result? The can't go in a block of normal DE warriors then? Or ride a steed and go with cavalry? I better check the DE book again.

DE are an army its almost impossible to lose with against the vast majority of armies in warhammer unless the DE player is a complete tool. The top three and HE and maybe Lizards can give them a run for their money (by which I mean they may have a small chance of winning if played well) and maybe the cheesiest empire list or thorek gunline would have a chance but the other armies in a game are woefully inadequate at dealing with this. Apparently this is due to the skill of DE players rather than the massive mismatch in items and army potential.

And the black guard deathstar is not even the nastiest DE build.

Dark Apostle197
14-08-2009, 11:01
The ring does get in the way sometimes. I would find the enemy within its range, and then I cannot cast onto it, because as you say it would make me miscast oh so often ;)

So I don't use it. Nor the Pendant. But then again, I'm probably just a complete tool.:rolleyes:

danny7865
14-08-2009, 11:30
If i play dark elves i just take the staff of immune to the first miscast and the ring of corin.I use that mage to work out exactly wherer the ring is then cast magic outside of its arc (it only works in 12") then destroy the ring and turn two I cast vauls unmaking etc. There is plenty of ways to fight the ring of hotek and it affects the dark elves too.

The ASF banner is the only thing the BG have in their defence otherwise high elf spearmen would ream them.
And the pendent is an issue but str3 bow shots and the flames of the phoenix can do similar damage.
I think if you panic about the other army you don't really play to win just limit how badly you will lose.....

Kerill
14-08-2009, 11:46
The ring does get in the way sometimes. I would find the enemy within its range, and then I cannot cast onto it, because as you say it would make me miscast oh so often ;)

So I don't use it. Nor the Pendant. But then again, I'm probably just a complete tool.:rolleyes:

Not loading up on the cheesey stuff hardly makes you a tool mate.

Even loading up on the good stuff doesn't make someone a tool.

What annoys me is when DE players claim things like the BG deathstar, ring or pendant are not in fact in any way overpowered and that other players simply need to use either unspecified "tactics" or tactics that simply don't work or need the DE player to make continual and foolish mistakes in order to make them viable.

EvC
14-08-2009, 12:32
I should play against more Dark Elf armies with the Ring of Hotek. In the last 2 weeks I've played against 4 DE armies, 2 with caddy + ring, 1 with Malekith + ring, and 1 with 6 levels of magic and 2 scrolls, each time using my Dragon Mage vs Archmage combo. In the first 3 games I worked hard with my magic phases, targeted the limited stuff away from the Ring, risked the occasional 2-dice blast- and used spells on things that the Ring wouldn't effect, like Unseen Lurker and Cleaning Flare. End result was a massive victory for me.

Against the army without Hotek though... I was putting 3-4 dice into the big High Magic spells, pretty much exactly how sulla listed (except Flames on the Blakc Guard), only for every spell to be dispelled with dice, scrolled, and then on turn 3 when the scrolls were exhausted, miscast central, my Archmage reducing himself down to 1 wound (You might see me posting the same thing in another Lizardmen thread here: yes, I had 2 games in the same evening and in both of them my Archmage miscast twice in a row to gift my opponent his points). So hell, give me more games against the Ring, cos I'm dangerous when I think I think I can dare try and cast spells without assuming I'll miscast.

deggaroth
15-08-2009, 01:25
What annoys me is when DE players claim things like the BG deathstar, ring or pendant are not in fact in any way overpowered and that other players simply need to use either unspecified "tactics" or tactics that simply don't work or need the DE player to make continual and foolish mistakes in order to make them viable.

How is a BG deathstar overpowered? Is my gaming group the only one that has players that use gunlines? Any day that I spend 300+ points on BG is a good day for my dwarven or empire buddies. Furthermore, almost every army has a dedicated shooting unit to deal with this problem.

I won't go into detail about the ring, since my fellow DE players have given pretty helpful comments about how magic heavy armies can deal with it. The only thing I'd like to add is that I don't understand the argument about how High Elves need 3 or 4 dice to cast; they do have access to every lore in the book, so they seem to be better able equipped to deal with DE ring of hotek users if they show up for a tourney. EVC doesen't seem to have a problem doing this. ;)

I will admit that the Pendant is a little cheap for its points, but it's not exactly game breaking...

LKHERO
15-08-2009, 02:11
I won't go into detail about the ring, since my fellow DE players have given pretty helpful comments about how magic heavy armies can deal with it.

You and your fellow DE players don't seem to understand the term "cost effectiveness".

Everytime I see you people argue it turns into "well you can do this this and this to avoid it". Those type of arguments completely are SO weak because you're telling the High Elf player that he must do X amount of changes to his army just to play against a 25-point item. What the ^&*# is that about?

What 25-point item do I have that can do this? In fact, what 25-point item in all of Warhammer that can do this? It's time to sit down and think really hard about the points you pay for your items of equal caliber with other armies.

Emeraldw
15-08-2009, 02:19
I will admit that the Pendant is a little cheap for its points, but it's not exactly game breaking...

I have a 500 Point Bloodthirster that can tear apart whole units by itself! I have a lord with a pendant, GW and Regen Armor, I challenge you!

*Thirster dies*

Hah! My mighty DE lord beats you! :D

35 is less points than a standard 4+ ward and it is at least a 4+ equivalent against most units str.

To Echo LK, Cost effectiveness is not well understood with some of these items.

Draconian77
15-08-2009, 02:51
lol. Do you play High Elves? Do you not see the statistics given about the effects of Ring of Hotek vs. wizards casting with 3-4 dice? Do you not understand that the Archmage, Lv.2 Mage, Teclis, and even the Dragon Mage are big players in the HE army?

Well, for one thing, the Dragon Mage is not a big player in your average tournament High Elf list. If you think that it is then you clearly aren't up to date with what is an average, tournament High Elf list. To my mind, someone that brings Teclis deserves to meet the Ring. :D He and the Infernal Gateway spamming WoC builds are both horrible imbalances that need an opposing force.

How the hell does your reasoning make any sense? Your basically telling me to gimp myself and my entire army over a 25-point item and you think that's just.

Gimp yourself?
...
You are currently producing what, about 9+PD per phase with your Lv4 and your Lv2? (Banner of Sorcery would make that a little higher) Instead of chucking 3-4 dice at spells, chuck 2. It will dramatically reduce the Rings effect on you. You "gimp yourself" by not changing your casting tactics.
Obviously for this to be an effective tactic you have to choose lores with low difficulty spells like the ones that I suggested.

*It really* sounds like you go into games expecting Teclis to win them for you, to my mind that doesn't make you sound very tactically adept. Now, I'm aware of how insulting that is but all I'm saying is that *it seems that way*, not that it is, in fact, that way.

I'm done with you. It looks to me that you're just a really poor DE player with no understand of the game's mechanics at all. Even DE players agree that the Ring is way underpriced; as is most of the DE's item selection. If you can't see that, then you're really either bad or just insane. There's no inbetween.

Good to know that. Here I was trying to help but it turn's out I'm insane! :D
(I've always suspected as much...)
The Ring might be too cheap but it certainly isn't broken as you suggest.


1) Again comes the myth that sorceresses will be outside the protection of the ring. In a unit it is REMARKABLY easy to ensure that the sorceresses unit is protected by the ring whilst the sorceresses spellcasting is not affected by it.

~It's actually not that easy in practice. (Coming from a guy who tried very tactic for a while, I could go into a detailed explanation bbut seeing as how I'm quoting again...)

2) How does this in any way counter what I said? The ring is overpowered against almost every army in the game, the fact that TK and dwarves are unaffected is rather beside the point.

~I really don't see how a caddy miscasting once a game is an issue...generally speaking caddies don't even attempt to cast spells. As for the armies the Ring is bad against?(In your average tournament)

-TK's, Dwarves, OK's, WE's, Bret's, Empire, DoC, WoC(except Gateway-spam),VC's and all armies with caddies.
(No miscasts, no spells, spell spam, defensive magic, defesive magic, Priests+defensive magic, FFS+defensive magic, BS/FFS, spell spam and no spells respectively.) That's the average tournament spread.

4) "Numbers" (Just edited for aesthetics)

Kerill you have made a terrible miscalcualtion.

Now lets assume the DE player isn't a complete tool and has moved the ring bearer to the corner of his 7 wide unit

This is a terrible idea, as something as simple as a flanking Eagle could kill the Ring bearer. Only a complete tool you would place him at the corner. :D
Now, I don't think most US3 models could do it assuming that they had no saves, but Trolls or Treekin certainly could, as could most 1+ save Knights.


and the pendant boy can easily handle any killy lords.

This doesn't make sense Kerill. If a unit contains both a Lord and a unit champion/other character then the Pendant boy cannot save your Ring bearer.




DE are an army its almost impossible to lose with against the vast majority of armies in warhammer unless the DE player is a complete tool. The top three and HE and maybe Lizards can give them a run for their money (by which I mean they may have a small chance of winning if played well) and maybe the cheesiest empire list or thorek gunline would have a chance but the other armies in a game are woefully inadequate at dealing with this. Apparently this is due to the skill of DE players rather than the massive mismatch in items and army potential.

This is complete rubbish. You don't need a top tier book, a cheesy Empire army or a Thorek gunline to beat a DE list. Whining like that doesn't achieve anything. The only armies that are woefully inadequate against the DE in my experience are OnG's, Ogre Kinghdoms and Beasts of Chaos. But I was under the immpression that those armies suffered against everybody? ;)

And the black guard deathstar is not even the nastiest DE build.

At least I agree with you here, the BG deathstar is a build that is focused on "not losing big", generally also meaning that it cannot "win big".



Pink filler.

sulla
15-08-2009, 03:18
What annoys me is when DE players claim things like the BG deathstar, ring or pendant are not in fact in any way overpowered and that other players simply need to use either unspecified "tactics" or tactics that simply don't work or need the DE player to make continual and foolish mistakes in order to make them viable.I already said, way back near the start of the post that current DE have an advantage over current HE becasue of certain items and that current HE must change their army build to be competitive. Rail against that all you like but its simply the way it is in this edition, sad but true. Unless you want your DE opponent to limit certain items in his list (which works just fine in a normal gaming group environment; we do it all the time vs 'lower tier' stuff), then you will have to change your build instead. It's not either player's fault; the lists are just a poor match up at the moment. DE without assassins, ASF banner and probably the ring are not competitive vs HE unless they tailor with massed chariots, shooting, magic and avoidance either.



Everytime I see you people argue it turns into "well you can do this this and this to avoid it". Those type of arguments completely are SO weak because you're telling the High Elf player that he must do X amount of changes to his army just to play against a 25-point item. What the ^&*# is that about?

What 25-point item do I have that can do this? In fact, what 25-point item in all of Warhammer that can do this? It's time to sit down and think really hard about the points you pay for your items of equal caliber with other armies.25pts is a red herring in this argument. The price of the item shouldn't matter. 2 steam tanks are a whopping 600pts but the price doesn't matter if your army can't reliably deal 3-4 t7 wounds in 2 seperate parts of the battlefield. Banner of sorcery + teclis is pretty mean too. 2 irresistable force 4 dice spells per phase, usually. Or 2 great cannons vs a guy on a large flyer. All these little items and tricks if you bring the wrong style of army to take them on. If you bring more than about 3 levels of magic, you have to play a lot smarter vs the ring. Either complain about it or adapt. It's not going away anytime soon and DE players will keep on taking it because it allows them to play an army that's not dependant on magic, just to protect themselves from magic.

Kerill
15-08-2009, 03:28
Where is the miscalculation? Chance of a miscast on 2 dice is 2.8% (1 in 36 possible dice rolls). Chance of miscasting on 2 dice near the ring is 6 times that (6/36) or 16.7%. Normal chance to miscast on 4 dice is 13.2% (i.e. less than a 2 dice cast near the ring), 19.6% for a 5 dice spell (meaning casting 2 dice near the ring is nearer to casting with 5 dice away from the ring. Run the numbers yourself anyway you please- no miscalculation here, it seems you don't want to face the issue.

So WOC non gateway builds are also affected. 2 dice is not dangerous is absolutely incorrect as shown by the miscalculation that is in fact not a miscalculation, the ring still has a massive effect. DOC will also want to cast spells on 2 dice, even if they only have horrors. OK will occasionally want to cast on 2 dice and you might want to have a look at their miscast table. Against VCs it may not work against invocation but it definitely works against vanhels on 2/3 dice.

No idea what you think the problem with the pendant blocking a killy lord is.

1+ save knights? Again several will die meaning the pendant bearer on the corner will be safe unless its a huge unit. The pendant bearer doesn't even need to be the champion, it could easily be the bsb so they can also have a 1+ save.

Trolls or treekin would need to be 5 or 6 strong to have a chance to kill a champion with the ring. If the bsb has the ring and a 1+ save then they are highly unlikely to succeed.

If the black guard is about to get charged by an eagle the ring bearer moves to the other flank. How is this difficult? Again you are assuming the DE player is an idiot again. He fails to move the ring bearer to the other flank AND fails to charge or shoot the eagle with supporting units.

@Sulla, DE getting advantages is no-one's fault. I'll still happily play against them or DOC and enjoy the challenge. What gets me is people claiming things like the ring/deathstars/shadestars are not powerful or cheesy. They are way overpowered, admit it then play games with them if you want.

deggaroth
15-08-2009, 05:23
I have a 500 Point Bloodthirster that can tear apart whole units by itself! I have a lord with a pendant, GW and Regen Armor, I challenge you!

*Thirster dies*

Hah! My mighty DE lord beats you! :D


I charge your DE lord with my hundred point goblin unit, lord gets beaten by CR and gets run down, and killed...

Did you put the lord on a dragon this time? I kill the dragon with my cannon, bloodthirster or equivalent S6+ unit that is in every army and then run the lord down with CR and watch him get killed...

Maybe you put him in BG to better protect him? I introduce your low T, lightly armoured BG to my cannon, or equivalent shooting unit that is in every army, and then charge the lord with CR when they're all dead...


Once again, I agree that the item is perhaps a little too cheap, but it's not gamebreaking.

Draconian77
15-08-2009, 05:33
Where is the miscalculation? Run the numbers yourself anyway you please- no miscalculation here, it seems you don't want to face the issue.

~The miscalcualtion was putting the guy on the corner of the unit...a tactical miscalculation, not a numerical one.

So WOC non gateway builds are also affected. 2 dice is not dangerous is absolutely incorrect as shown by the miscalculation that is in fact not a miscalculation, the ring still has a massive effect. DOC will also want to cast spells on 2 dice, even if they only have horrors. OK will occasionally want to cast on 2 dice and you might want to have a look at their miscast table. Against VCs it may not work against invocation but it definitely works against vanhels on 2/3 dice.

~You say that the Ring will work on 2 dice spells and all I can think of is "Well duh genius!" ;) My original and remaining point is that it has a greatly reduced effect against such spells, not that it doesn't work against them at all. To this end choosing such spells is the way to go, simply chucking 3-4 dice at spells and hoping for the best whilst declaring "cheese!" is not the way to go. :)

~OK's will rarely cast with 2 dice if the Ring is present in a list though, if you have the option of 1 die casting, might as well use it. Vanhels rarely triggers the Ring unless the target is charging the Ring bearing unit.

No idea what you think the problem with the pendant blocking a killy lord is.

Ok...
I charge my "Fighty Hero"+"Heavy Cavalry" into your Black Guard.
How do you protect the Ring bearer from my killy character/unit in general?

I don't challenge and if you challenge, my champion accepts. Not once in that common scenario does the killy character have to even approach the Pendant.

1+ save knights? Again several will die meaning the pendant bearer on the corner will be safe unless its a huge unit. The pendant bearer doesn't even need to be the champion, it could easily be the bsb so they can also have a 1+ save.

I don't quite understand how a few Knights dying saves the Ring bearer, you only need 1-2 to survive to kill him. On average a unit of BG(7 wide)+BsB with GW would only kill about 2~3 Empire Knights. As for a 1+ save, I think there are enough high S attacks or magic weapons out there to tackle that if you really need to kill the Ring bearer.

Trolls or treekin would need to be 5 or 6 strong to have a chance to kill a champion with the ring. If the bsb has the ring and a 1+ save then they are highly unlikely to succeed.

Why 5 or 6 strong exactly? Three or four charge in, take about 3 wounds from the unit above and allocate some attacks against the Champion. Champion goes splat, problem solved?

If the black guard is about to get charged by an eagle the ring bearer moves to the other flank. How is this difficult? Again you are assuming the DE player is an idiot again. He fails to move the ring bearer to the other flank AND fails to charge or shoot the eagle with supporting units.

Now you are assuming that the HE player is an idiot, maybe he shuts down the DE shooting with Fast Cavalry/Flyers/Shooting/Spells/Terror? Maybe some terrain or unit is in the way? Maybe he has a flanking unit on the other side aswell? Theoryhammer is exactly that, theory! But;

Your corner theory allows for a flank charge to lead to death.
Mine does not.

I know which I'd choose. ;)

@Sulla, DE getting advantages is no-one's fault. I'll still happily play against them or DOC and enjoy the challenge. What gets me is people claiming things like the ring/deathstars/shadestars are not powerful or cheesy. They are way overpowered, admit it then play games with them if you want.

-The Ring isn't overpowered unless you play nothing but magic heavy armies and those armies refuse to adapt to the Ring's presence.
-The Black Guard Deathstar is a one trick pony with little chance of winning big against a skilled opponent.
-The Shadestar is filthy and wrong on many levels...
This pretty much sums up my thoughts on those matters. :D

Even more pink filler with a hint of purple.


I have a 500 Point Bloodthirster that can tear apart whole units by itself! I have a lord with a pendant, GW and Regen Armor, I challenge you!

*Thirster dies*

Hah! My mighty DE lord beats you!

Actually, assuming the normal Obsidian Armour, Fiery Blade and Immortal Fury the Bloodthirster deals .8~ish wounds and recieves .8~ish wounds.

A much more pressing question is why did you charge you Bloodthirster;

A: Into a unit likely to contain the Pendant.
B: In the front at that?

Sarah S
15-08-2009, 05:35
25pts is a red herring in this argument. The price of the item shouldn't matter.

This is the damn silliest comment I have read in a gooood long while.

Firstly the entire game is based on the points system. The game functions by allowing you to build armies to a certain limit. If you have a bunch of ridiculous stuff that is quite obviously undercosted (Pendant, Hydra, etc.) then you are able to spend those points on other elements of your army. More is better. That's the crux of the entire game.

Hell, the game is basically just an experiment in balance. Once you throw out the cost balance of the game then player skill has less of an impact because less skilled Player A is losing to greater skilled Player B because player A has more, better stuff.

For example, if points don't matter then why not pay 40 points a model for Black Guard, 500 points per Hydra and see if you can beat a regular Dark Elf army.

Secondly, by being 25 points, it can be carried on many Heroes with other equipment. More importantly it can be carried by unit champions, freeing up the Heroes to carry their full complement of gear. This is a huge advantage, all because of how many points the item is.

Draconian77
15-08-2009, 05:50
I have never seen the placement of the Ring on a unit Champion to be a big advantage, it pushes the normally sacrificial model into the realms of "must not lose." (Against magic heavy armies of course!) and increases the chance of it being killed via a sacrificial unit, tough unit, character, monster, or snipe. (Buboes and Hochlands being the main antagonists here.)

Personally I always have it on a Master with the Amour of Darkness or the Enchanted Shield. (Both allow for a 1+ save on foot IIRC and although one allows for a GW, the AoD may be required for a Peg Rider.)

I'm interested to see what points value you would place on the Ring.

Gav T. already told us why it was priced liked that, it fundamentally alters they way you play.

Sarah S
15-08-2009, 05:54
10 Black Guard with the ring is ~170 points and very easy to keep safe behind the Dark Elf line.

Draconian77
15-08-2009, 06:14
See that's exactly my point...

Keep it behind your lines?

Then it will not affect a lot of the enemies magic users unless you sit back and castle with everything -> Fundamentally changes the way the DE play!

Not to mention a Stubborn unit that won't be blocking anything, the waste of a special slot against magic light-armies, a hill could ruin your plans, as could spells that don't require LoS and pretty much any unit that can get behind people with impunity. (Flyers, fast cav, gorgers, miners, tomb swarms/scorpions/scouts/etc)

I'm not really saying that it's easy, it's just that a lot of the time people don't consider the downsides/counter measures and I listed about a dozen without even trying too hard.

Sarah S
15-08-2009, 06:39
Behind your lines could be an inch behind your main force advancing at full speed...?

Your 1+ save hero is only twice as resilient to Buboes as the Champion (and is about as resilient versus Rule of Burning Iron) , so I wouldn't really consider that a huge increase in survivability. At the end of the day he's still a T3 elf.

Anyways this is all way off topic, so I better quit posting before sulla yells at me again... :rolleyes:

The Ring is way too cheap, and because of its cheapness it is way too versatile.

High Elves (and every other army) really have nothing that compare to it.

LKHERO
15-08-2009, 06:55
-The Ring isn't overpowered unless you play nothing but magic heavy armies and those armies refuse to adapt to the Ring's presence.
-The Black Guard Deathstar is a one trick pony with little chance of winning big against a skilled opponent.
-The Shadestar is filthy and wrong on many levels...
This pretty much sums up my thoughts on those matters.

Bull^&*% to your first statement. A 25 point item should not be able to alter in the game in that way. A Lv.4 + Lv.2 is hardly a magic heavy army.. but yet the Ring manages to neuter both.

The Black Guard is not a one trick pony considering how 15 w/ FC + ASF Banner is less than 300 points in a normal 2250 point game. (don't have my book atm, but price should be around there)

I'll say it again:
What 25-point item do I have that can do this? In fact, what 25-point item in all of Warhammer that can do this? It's time to sit down and think really hard about the points you pay for your items of equal caliber with other armies.

Draconian77
15-08-2009, 07:00
Behind your lines could be an inch behind your main force advancing at full speed...?

That means that neither your flankers nor shooting unit benefit from it's protection...you can't cover an entire board with a 12" radius no matter how much you try. xD

Your 1+ save hero is only twice as resilient to Buboes as the Champion (and is about as resilient versus Rule of Burning Iron) , so I wouldn't really consider that a huge increase in survivability. At the end of the day he's still a T3 elf.

For Buboes and Rule, 2x, against S4 attacks roughly 10x and against S5 roughly 6x, etc. Not to mention Hochlands or Steal Soul.

Anyways this is all way off topic, so I better quit posting before sulla yells at me again... :rolleyes:

This thread has been off topic for ages now, I dont think anyone minds. Although we could open a new thread discussing all of these various matters but I figure that it would just turn into a "You're wrong!" -> "No, you're wrong!" type thread anyway. Best not. :D

The Ring is way too cheap, and because of its cheapness it is way too versatile.

Meh...it's either going to be on a Dreadlord/Master(essentially the same thing) or a BG unit champion/CoK unit champion. In terms of potential combos you have very few. The real combo items are all Talismans meaning that it's pretty much a 1 per character theme in the DE army.

High Elves (and every other army) really have nothing that compare to it.

I can think of an item from every single army book that I own which is ridiculous within the confines of that book and compares favourably with the Ring for it's points cost.

Pink elephant.

Sarah S
15-08-2009, 07:25
I can think of an item from every single army book that I own which is ridiculous within the confines of that book and compares favourably with the Ring for it's points cost.

Please list (or PM) me all the items from as many army books as you can that will have as large an impact on an average game as the ring for the same amount of points.

I am genuinely interested in seeing what you think is as ridiculous. If the ring was a magic banner, it would be undervalued by over 100 points.

kardar233
15-08-2009, 11:35
I, for one, can't think of any magic item that changes the game as drastically as the Ring. The Puppet can make miscasts brutal, but then the problem crops up of making them miscast. Mork's Spirit Totem can add 3 dispel dice to your pool; however, it's easily negated by taking a couple of ranks off the unit carrying it, and it's quite expensive when you consider you need a unit of Big 'Uns, Black Orcs or a BSB in order to actually have it, and that bumps the price quite a bit. None of the Daemon gifts are that level of nasty; it's usually the units that are the broken part. Don't know Beasts, Brets don't have anything that mass-affecting, neither do Empire (but some would argue that the Speculum counts), don't have my TK book on hand but fairly sure they don't have anything big, Wood Elves have the re-roll dispel attempts, but that requires them to spend a large amount of points on a caster Lord, while other Lords are generally more effective and some just don't take one. Can't think of any other armies right now, but those are the ones that I remember.

Emeraldw
15-08-2009, 12:33
I charge your DE lord with my hundred point goblin unit, lord gets beaten by CR and gets run down, and killed...

Missed the challenge part didn't ya? The unit kills your goblins.

Did you put the lord on a dragon this time? I kill the dragon with my cannon, bloodthirster or equivalent S6+ unit that is in every army and then run the lord down with CR and watch him get killed...

Changing armies on me? Suddenly everyone has great cannons and dragons are always open to being shot am I right? Also, it is a flying unit, good luck charging me without something equivalent. Look, the idea remains, a 35 point item makes the character practically invulnerable to str 5 or higher.

Maybe you put him in BG to better protect him? I introduce your low T, lightly armoured BG to my cannon, or equivalent shooting unit that is in every army, and then charge the lord with CR when they're all dead...

I would say that unit did its job! What if it is a unit of corsairs? You spent the whole game shooting at a unit with a 35 point item. I call that a fair trade :D


Once again, I agree that the item is perhaps a little too cheap, but it's not gamebreaking.

Gamebreaking to me would be an auto win, but the point I made remains. Though I suppose it isn't so bad when you look at Van Hels Speculam which can do the same thing.

@Drac: Bloodthirsters into the front isn't as odd as it sounds and if it might have been a knight unit which is a good place to throw him into.

Kerill
15-08-2009, 14:29
Ring should be 100 points.

As for the units charging the blackguard, maybe your group plays it differently but we fill ranks from the centre. If a unit of 6 knights charge the black guard and 4 die there are two left in the middle and no longer in base to base contact with the ringbearer on the corner i.e. they can't attack him, i.e. he is safe. How do your group play this exactly draconian?
@Kardar, there is no item in the game that breaks things as much as the ring. As for the pendant, there had been no more effective ward or special save in the last 20 years of warhammer more effective.

Copella
15-08-2009, 15:41
100 points, lol. You people do realize it effects our own spells too right? It's as much of a risk as it is a benefit.

Kerill
15-08-2009, 16:47
A dark elf player I presume. See the previous points about the ring and casting spells, might be enlightening for you.

Sarah S
15-08-2009, 20:31
As for the units charging the blackguard, maybe your group plays it differently but we fill ranks from the centre. If a unit of 6 knights charge the black guard and 4 die there are two left in the middle and no longer in base to base contact with the ringbearer on the corner i.e. they can't attack him, i.e. he is safe. How do your group play this exactly draconian?

You are playing by the rules. Anyone who plays otherwise is not. The casualty removal rules for the game require that you remove evenly from the sides of the unit, so the centre of the unit stays the same.

The Vampire Counts Drakenhof Banner is 125 points, is a magic standard that can only be carried by the Battle Standard Bearer and is incredibly annoying.
The Ring of Hotek is 25 points, is a talisman that can be carried by anyone, including unit champions and it changes the game more than the Drakenhof Banner.

That's some fine work Lou... :rolleyes:

We would still see the Ring of Hotek taken half the time if it was a 125 point Magic banner. That's ********D up.

danny7865
15-08-2009, 20:45
As a high elf player i always take the ring of corin...... that costs 20 points and can destroy a 125 point magic banner. I think that is a broken item if the ring of hotek is. Afterall I make sure all the dispel dice are gone and at least one scroll before i use it. Even if you use a dispel scroll you have still wasted 5 points lol.
Although I do begrudge that is is basically an old high elf spell (fortune is fickle) which has been replaced with the stubborn spell. but drain magtic is still awesome :)

Von Wibble
15-08-2009, 22:00
I think the ring is certainly a great item. But it isn't the be all and end all of dark elf magic defense. I certainly don't think it would be used as a 125pt banner - that would require you to take a bsb without protection, and would prevent banner of hag graef on hag with executioners.

Firstly, it affects dark elf magic too. And dark elves against most armies tend to be the ones throwing out all the spells - especially of the type the ring cancels. The ring does nothing to help prevent invocation spam, and the only way it covers your entire army is if you turtle up. So your harpies, dark riders, shades become a lot weaker. Therefore an army relying only on ring of hotek won't have these units (shadestar as exception - imo shades should be 5-10 models in a unit).

Well, you could counter that by saying the dark elves can have their magic too to throw in dispel dice and scrolls. But the fact is you are then getting the oppostie of synergy into your list. A scroll caddy is basically 100pts wasted for example (thus making the ring effectively 125pts). Taking a level 4 really doesn't work even if the ring is mounted - I have tried this and the ring just gets bogged down in cmbat by turn 4 (unless of course your unit stands at the back and does nothing - this would make the ring effectively 150pts in cost.

Finally, Nullstones. The other option to protect an army and teh most synergistic with the ring. However, that means no pendant of khaeleth, no ring of darkness, and less points on other lovely items to help you out.

In short, the ring is priced as such because if taken, you are effectively paying 150odd points for both it and the opportunity cost of removing your own tactical options. The only times when this isn't the case are when you plan to have an army with no magic, relying mostly on a few elite foot units that can get within the radius. And the ring makes Khainite armies without magic a viable option - any item which allows a different style of list to be taken is by default a good one. If I were to balance the ring, I think making it 55pts would be the best move. Basically means you have to take a dreadlord and can't have a dirtlord variant.

As to other complaints

Pendant - I personally only allow myself to give it to sorceresses. Its only broken when combined with an armour saving throw.

Hydra - Yes, its worth a lot more points. 225 seems fairer. But imo a lot of the other 200ish point models suffer from being too ineffactive, and when compared that is what causes some percieved problems. Imo all armies special choices and rare choices should be better per point than their core - that's why they get their reputation and why they are limited in number. Hydra would be less of an issue if Shaggoths, Giants, Manticores, and the like were appropriately buffed. The other issue is of course how poor an option the repeater bolt thrower is - if that were 1 per choice but actually had shooting rules that allowed it to kill stuff (ie give it back its 5th edition rules) I think we'd see a lot less Hydras taken.

Sarah S
15-08-2009, 22:02
The Standard of Sundering is 75 points, and the Ring of Hotek is probably twice as good as that - even with its more limited range.

Von Wibble
15-08-2009, 22:14
I disagree. The range of the standard of sundering is a huge factor. And would Tzeentch Daemons really want the ring in their list?

Sarah S
15-08-2009, 22:35
Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh would love it.

LKHERO
16-08-2009, 00:06
As a high elf player i always take the ring of corin...... that costs 20 points and can destroy a 125 point magic banner. I think that is a broken item if the ring of hotek is. Afterall I make sure all the dispel dice are gone and at least one scroll before i use it. Even if you use a dispel scroll you have still wasted 5 points lol.
Although I do begrudge that is is basically an old high elf spell (fortune is fickle) which has been replaced with the stubborn spell. but drain magtic is still awesome :)

ROFL.

You're seriously comparing a 1-time use, BL 3 item that costs 20 points to Ring of Hotek.

Try again.


In short, the ring is priced as such because if taken, you are effectively paying 150odd points for both it and the opportunity cost of removing your own tactical options. The only times when this isn't the case are when you plan to have an army with no magic, relying mostly on a few elite foot units that can get within the radius. And the ring makes Khainite armies without magic a viable option - any item which allows a different style of list to be taken is by default a good one. If I were to balance the ring, I think making it 55pts would be the best move. Basically means you have to take a dreadlord and can't have a dirtlord variant.

So who would you entrust to carry this 100 point item that needs to be within 6" of the enemy for it to work? Whoever that is, he can't be everywhere at once, unless you're putting your Prince on a flying mount with his almighty toughness 3 and 4+ to save. Put him on a Star Dragon? You say? How does trading 650+ points worth of Lords and equipment justify the means to solve a few items (worth 1/8th that).

Mannfred
16-08-2009, 02:53
Well i don't quite understand why everyone is so heated about just the ring of hotek honestly - i'm not here to dispute whether the ring isn't as good as people think and thus should only be 25pts....but every army has a cheap and effective magic items so why the negativity...for High Elves - talisman of Saphery - it is basically a chaos rune shield for only 35pts....lore masters cloak - 40pts - 2+ ward saves against wounds caused by spells...world dragon banner - 60pts er immunity to magic....Ring of Corin - 20pts = vaul's unmaking...and of course the talisman of loec for just 10pts....Vampire Counts - Book of Arkhan (35pts) - Nightshourd (20pts) - Crown of the Damned (35pts)....Daemons of Chaos - Slime Trail (10pts) - Icon of Sorcery (15pts) ....Blood Curling Roar (20pts)....Wood Elves - Hail of Doom (25pts)....i hope people will understand that every army has items as devastating as the ring of hotek....

Plus sure we can put the item on a unit champion which of course is the biggest controvesy i can see here well so wat? In close combat u can target unit champions and just get rid of the ring.....of just sniper him from the unit - hochland long rifles, eagles claw....miasma of pestilence.....vaul's unmaking....i mean lots of ways too do it....

And look null stone yesh it's so worth 100pts...i don't know how people don't understand why it's not worth 100pts....honestly.....yesh true it's only 6 inches but so what thats plenty....charge him into a unit of temple guard thats like a 700pt slann negated...charge him into special characters like archeon o wat all ur magic items are useless now...it is the perfect item against special characters because all they have is magic items if people don't realise...like tyrion isn't so scary when he's got no armour save or ward of str7 sword...and even lowly rank and file can kill him then....

Every magic item in the game is good it's just how u use it....and for people that keep saying that ring of hotek is so broken please read your own army book and learn to counter it - don't just whine and say thats no fair just cause i roll a double it's a miscast...wat happened too ur shooting and combat....if you can only win a game through magic then theres something really wrong with ur list and ur just playing into the ring's strengths thats ur own fault its why u have balanced lists.....to counter items like this...

Sarah S
16-08-2009, 02:56
Well i don't quite understand why everyone is so heated about just the ring of hotek honestly - i'm not here to dispute whether the ring isn't as good as people think and thus should only be 25pts....but every army has a cheap and effective magic items so why the negativity...for High Elves - talisman of Saphery - it is basically a chaos rune shield for only 35pts....lore masters cloak - 40pts - 2+ ward saves against wounds caused by spells...world dragon banner - 60pts er immunity to magic....Ring of Corin - 20pts = vaul's unmaking...and of course the talisman of loec for just 10pts....Vampire Counts - Book of Arkhan (35pts) - Nightshourd (20pts) - Crown of the Damned (35pts)....Daemons of Chaos - Slime Trail (10pts) - Icon of Sorcery (15pts) ....Blood Curling Roar (20pts)....Wood Elves - Hail of Doom (25pts)....i hope people will understand that every army has items as devastating as the ring of hotek....


People are complaining because those items are like 10-15 points too cheap, and the Ring of Hotek is ~100 points too cheap.

Kerill
16-08-2009, 03:42
Indeed. Banner of sundering is far less effective than the ring (and yet more expensive, needs a bsb etc.). Cool DE stuff is cheesier than daemons

Copella
16-08-2009, 04:20
/facepalm

Yes, I have read the posts prior. None the less, the reason people are having such problems with the Ring of hotek, is because it hurts the magic phase. EVERYONE'S magic phase. How much magic do you usually see in a DE army that has the Ring of Hotek? Most likely, very little. It's not an item that wins games etc for you. It has the soul purpose of reducing damage from magic, again, from both armies. Making the OTHER phases of the game more of a focus for the DE army. So if your always running a lot of magic, than yes, you will be in trouble. In this case, you have no one to blame but your own for trying to win with one phase of the game.
There are plenty of items littered through the armies that are interesting and brutal. One that caught me by surprise was the a Tomb King's Scythe of doom. 2 automatic hits at Str7 against all models in base contact. That's pretty nasty. That certainly dominates in the combat phase. There are a ton of other examples as well. A few others already mentioned.
100, not a snowball's chance in hell. 30-50, maybe, a big maybe.

TheSanityAssassin
16-08-2009, 05:23
/facepalm

Yes, I have read the posts prior. None the less, the reason people are having such problems with the Ring of hotek, is because it hurts the magic phase. EVERYONE'S magic phase. How much magic do you usually see in a DE army that has the Ring of Hotek? Most likely, very little. It's not an item that wins games etc for you. It has the soul purpose of reducing damage from magic, again, from both armies. Making the OTHER phases of the game more of a focus for the DE army. So if your always running a lot of magic, than yes, you will be in trouble. In this case, you have no one to blame but your own for trying to win with one phase of the game.


I...I've tried to avoid posting in this thread, but this comment makes me facepalm a little. In every list I build I try to make it win in 2 phases, and be at least mildly effective in a third. IE my High Elves are VERY fighty, with fairly good magic, and a bit of shooting for dealing with annoying fast cav. My Brets are VERY chargy, with a remarkable amount of shooting, and enough magic to survive. My Empire the same. My Dark Elves are VERY shooty, with a good bit of magic and...well..I have troops. Sometimes they even avoid death.

The point I'm getting at is that it ISN'T hurting the Dark Elves to not get magic if they take the ring (and yes, I've read...it is still possible..but follow this line of thought if you will). This means that rather than say a 40/40/20 or 50/30/20 split of your points from shooting/fighting/magic you can do say 60/40/0 or the like. You can IGNORE the magic phase in your own list. You can also be relatively content ignoring the opponents. Yes, I'm aware that some thing can still cast against it, but not that well. That means that 100% of your list is doing something functional. IE what you intended it to do when you built your list. Somewhere between 60 and 80% of the enemy list can do the same.

Now, about that "it's your own fault for trying to win in one phase of the game..." bit. I'll agree that if you take say, Teclis and 3 LV2's or a full Tzeentch sorcerer list, you're probably a little bit to blame for focusing solely on 1 phase of the game. But most people take at least SOME magic in their lists. I ususally take a Level 4 and a Level 2, mostly kitted out for defense, but still kind of blasty. That ususally costs me +/- 500 pts. I'm not trying to WIN the game with the magic phase, but yes it's part of the machine that is my army. For 25 points a wrench is thrown in that engine, meaning I have to play the game effectively with 1750 against 2250 pts....I haven't only focused on one phase, but I still lose a massive amount of effectiveness. I ALSO lose my 100 pts of magic defense items as being useful, because you have no magic to defend against. I HAD to take my 500 pts of magic to defend against other people's magic, to do the SAME job as your 25 point item on a unit champion. It might do it SLIGHTLY better, but I'd say slightly better is a damn sight not good enough given the points difference. Combine that with the big ASF Black Guard unit that I now can't magic to defend against and I'm in big crap.

The reason being that other armies are pretty much required (if they want to survive) to take magic to defend against other magic. If you're going to take it anyways, you might as well try to use it to kill some stuff. The ability to gain all that defense from 25 pts on a unit champion is kind of absurd. Make it 50 pts. Then you either have to put it on a naked (and therefore VERY killable) Master, or on a Dreadlord, who is then kind of neutered in terms of what he can take. Even 30 points, I'd be somewhat content. It's the fact that Unit Champs can grab it that grinds my gears....




OTHER THOUGHT: The problem I have with High vs. Dark Elves (and I've played ALOT of those games on both sides) is that the games just don't seem to be tight. Either the Dark Elves take a bunch of anti-High Elf tricks and beat the tar out of them, or they don't, and can't last 3 seconds in a fight with the High Elf elites....Where as the High Elves can't really tailor to beat Dark Elves specifically, the Dark Elves can build lists that High Elves have a VERY hard time touching, and when it comes down to it pretty much HAVE to in order to touch the High Elves. It's a pasting one way or another....

Copella
16-08-2009, 05:54
One of the biggest problems, is not so much the ring. Its magic in general, it's pretty much the easiest phase to win games with. Be it by bringing back most of your army every turn, or getting free moves/charges, or out right exploding units. Magic seems to be able to alter the battle more than any other phase. That is where the Ring of Hotek really becomes undercosted.
I run a DE list with a lvl 4, and lvl 2, and no ring of hotek to be seen. Why? Simple, because I like having all the benefits of my magic to support my combat. The lvl 4 is usually a hybrid of offense and defense. While the lvl 2 is usually an assistant in offense.
Either way, you can't just say the Ring should be 100 points, or even 50. It's not earth shattering, and it doesn't prevent 100% of spells. Last I checked, there are a ton of spells that only require 2 dice to use.

Kerill
16-08-2009, 06:04
there are a ton of spells that only require 2 dice to use.

And that due to the ring have more chance of miscasting than a 4 dice spell away from the ring.

Again with the 2 dice can't miscast myth that DE players keep throwing about.

The ring is earth shatteringly silly.

Mannfred
16-08-2009, 06:37
1) the ring only effects spells cast on dark elf units or when cast within 12 inches of the bearer, their are a lot of spells that you cast on your own units to give them the edge in various other phases. Spells that are cast without specifically targeting a unit also completely negates the ring of hotek. Use just need to cast ur spells wisely...Comet of Cassandora (12+) big spell negates ring of hotek.

2) If you really want to do offensive magic alot of good spells only need two dice too cast and knowing that dark elf armies are taking little to no magic they'll only have 2-3 dispell dice at best so spells will go throw. And if u keep saying that 2 dice can't miscast is a myth well hey 5/36 chances say u'll roll a double since double one naturally fails anyways - it's not a myth it's just probability.

3) Like i said before; the ring doesn't negate your magic phase - supporting magic "celestial shield" "unseen lurker" "courage of anerion" "tree singing" can be used with complete safety..

On a side note - High Elves vs Dark Elves always interesting game too watch honestly...if both players take balanced lists equal magic shooting and combat it is a nail bitter...sure Dark Elves seem to have more anti High Elf goodness - asf blackguard - but archers and bolt throwers make short work of blackguard and so will chariots....all comes down to dice and really the player themselves honestly....

truthsayer
16-08-2009, 11:34
Is your friend slightly retarded? In a nice way obviously.

My high elf friend now almost refuses to play against my dark elves as they are a bit extreme.

High elf magic does not scare me in the slightest (and thats without the ring - as even I deem that broken cheap cheesiness). the swordmasters would scare me slightly but i can work round them with the hydra, assassins and rxb. Cold one cav make a mess of high elves, as do black guard, with elves and corsairs.

Id love to play against a themed saphery list, my guy doesnt like using high elf magic as its poor at the best of times. (or is that just him...?) ;)

Von Wibble
16-08-2009, 13:32
ROFL.

You're seriously comparing a 1-time use, BL 3 item that costs 20 points to Ring of Hotek.

Try again.

Actually this is a relevant comparison. The dark elf army will have next to no dispel dice, and likely no scrolls, unless he invested extra points (in which case teh ring has actually cost you 175 points) So if you cast a couple of buffs on your own units who are out of range, or taget enemy units out of range to wheedle out those dice, and then use the ring, the dark elf player loses his ring of hotek. Then he loses the game quite badly because magic demolishes armies of expensive T3 models with no defence dice quite easily.

So who would you entrust to carry this 100 point item that needs to be within 6" of the enemy for it to work? Whoever that is, he can't be everywhere at once, unless you're putting your Prince on a flying mount with his almighty toughness 3 and 4+ to save. Put him on a Star Dragon? You say? How does trading 650+ points worth of Lords and equipment justify the means to solve a few items (worth 1/8th that).

I don't have a clue what you are talking about. You seem to be describing the Nullstone - which I have at no point referred to (I don't really rate that item personally)



Sarah S - Slaanesh would not like it since their magic has a huge synergy with their army stlye. Nurgle and Khorne would indeed love it - but dark elves have neither the combat power nor staying power of these 2, and have their own magic potential. The trouble with cross army comparison is that items are not worthteh same price in every list. In a Nurgle army I would price the ring at 150 points since pretty much nothing is lost, combined with the fact that fire is one of few ways to reliably kill many nurgle units. Oc, note that the sundering standard hurts invocation spam a lot more - its quite hard to spam a spell you need 5+ to cast. And taking it doesn't prevent other strategies (except Masque + Despair).

TheSanityAssassin - Any army that takes a level 4 is trying to win with magic. A standard magic phase at 2500pts is about 4-5 levels of magic, unless you are undead (pretty much immune to the ring) or Tzeentch (overpowered and deserve such a hit). Now, such an army tends to spend 300 points. The dark elf player, as already mentioned, effectively pays 150 points for the ring, since to get the best use out of it his opportunity cost is about that much. 150 more for a caddy. So the standard magic player who isn't overpowering his phase is paying about the same amount for magic, and still has the potential to cast some spells whilst the dark elf player has none. Does the ring still seem like such a good deal in that case?

That said, I am in complete agreement with the rest of your points. The fault isn't so much the ring as the mechanic that means you have to take magic to have a decent magic defense. I think every army needs something similar to the ring to make an army without wizards viable. The +3 dd banner, and the old Khorne unit/ warrior priest = dd are the only things I can think of.

Kerill - whilst 2 dice is too risky in general, 1 dice is not. And Invocatiopn of Nehek tends to require that, whilst Tzeentchian armies use bound spells. The armies most reliant on magic without other options are immune to the ring.

And your OTHER THOUGHT is absolutely correct. It shows the flaws of ASF as a system. On Asur.com there is an alternative army list whre high elves lose ASF and are -1 to be hit in the first round of any combat. I like this mechanic far better myself.

The only thing that sickens me about the pendant is that the reason given for its low cost is the T3 of dark elves. Last I checked, HE have T3 also, yet they have the worst selection of ward saves of any army going (except chaos). You can have a 4+ ward that forces you to only take light armour, or a 4+ ward with reroll save and huge extra cost, meaning you are restricted to being mounted (and I never put mounted characters with foot units on principal). And High elves are supposed to have the best magic items in the game! Wood Elves also have T3, and every single ward they have is unreliable in some way, or overpriced (drop oaken armour by 10 points and its about right)

Noone answered my previous point - if the ring were 55 points would it be fair? As I said, it means you can't have it in games smaller than 2000, and at 2000-2999 you have to put it on a Dreadlord (unless you are insane), who can't then have the pendant, or even a decent saving throw and magic weapon (a luxury available to pretty much every dreadlord currently).

Copella
16-08-2009, 13:50
55 points, yeah, that's a great idea. Make a LORD character that gets to sit back and stare at a ring all game.

55 points would be silly. That would mean your stuck with a very subpar Lord character starting at just shy of 200 points. Than you would have to clutter your whole army within 12 inches of him. Guess range and template weapons will have a field day on that.

Von Wibble
16-08-2009, 16:17
Not at all. A lord with ring of hotek can still have great weapon and armour of darkness, for a reasonable fighter and good unit leader. And shouldn't your general try to be within 12" of your army anyway...

Kerill
16-08-2009, 19:04
Not at all. A lord with ring of hotek can still have great weapon and armour of darkness, for a reasonable fighter and good unit leader. And shouldn't your general try to be within 12" of your army anyway...

Then they might need to make a slightly difficult decision. LD10 leadership bubble, immunity to magic, great fighter with ASF, S6 attacks with hatred and with merely a 1+ armour save.

kardar233
16-08-2009, 19:22
Well, at 55 points a Dreadlord would be able to take the Pendant alongside the Ring, and then a halberd, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak and a Cold One would be a 2+ save plus the Pendant, and S5 attacks. Not much worse than the standard Pendant Lord, and the army gets to keep the Ring.

Kerill
16-08-2009, 20:15
Can't take pendant with the ring- both talismans.

kardar233
16-08-2009, 20:53
Really? I thought the Ring was an Enchanted item. 55 points would make it reasonable then, as you can go Lord-hunting with a hitty Lord and actually have a chance of success.

danny7865
16-08-2009, 22:27
ROFL.

You're seriously comparing a 1-time use, BL 3 item that costs 20 points to Ring of Hotek.

Try again.



Yes Because rather than work myself up into a hysterical frenzy when I play Dark elves I look at what i have which could counter popuar items and play the game.

And it has never failed me yet.


I think if the ring was 30 points (so only characters could carry it ) it would make it a little fairer.

I think the pendent of khaleth is far more problematic but then again my one time pl3 20 point item might deal with that also.....

Hrogoff the Destructor
17-08-2009, 14:48
Since this is a disucssion about HE vs DE, what is the best way for HE's to kill a Hydra without a dragon/Tyrion? I haven't played DE's with my HE's since the new book came out, and I couldn't think of an effective way to do it.

wysiwyg
17-08-2009, 16:26
One evil strategy I've heard for killing a hydra begins with shooting off its handlers, which may cause it to become stupid or rooted in place anyway. Then charge it with a 1X5 formation of reavers or silver helms with the champion in front. Because it is only in contact with the champion the hydra can only get one wound, and is beaten by outnumbering + banner. Even if the hydra passes its break test, it has been held in place for a turn and set up for a followup charge.

EvC
17-08-2009, 16:28
Magic's the best way, flaming if possible. You can also kill a Handler to force a panic check (e.g. Steal Soul). A charge from ~6 Dragon Princes has a good chance of beating the Hydra, but if you have rubber lances, the unit should be toast.

Bad idea wysiwyg. If you put your unit in 1x5 formation, not only does it suck, but you can't have both the champ and banner in the front rank, so you'll only get a draw by outnumber, and next turn Hydra eats you. And the DE player will no doubt have his own counter-charges set up. Oh and if the Silver Helm unit takes a single casualty on the way forwards, then it loses by outnumber too.


Yes Because rather than work myself up into a hysterical frenzy when I play Dark elves I look at what i have which could counter popuar items and play the game.

The problem is that to take the Ring of Corin, you also have to take a Mage who is actually pretty poor otherwise, as it is an Arcane item. You could put it on your Archmage, in which case you're risking some poor spells; you'd be mad to put it on a Dragon Mage, who should always have the Silver Wand. A regular Mage could take it, but you couldn't give him the Ring of Fury, Seer Staff, Silver Wand or anything else particularly useful either, which would suck a little.

Then you have the problem of actually getting the spell off: it helps if you have another bound item somewhere else to suck up the few dispel dice he has, plus it has the other (major) problem that it is a trick that will NEVER work twice. If you play the same Dark Elf opponent twice, that Ring aint ever getting used (How ironic: the Dark Elf player then neutralises your 20 point magic item by doing nothing more than having the Ring of Hotek in the first place!). And it just goes to show, your one way of dealing with Hotek? List-tailoring. When you have to resort to that, that's a pretty good sign that the thing you're tailoring an entire character to defeat is massively effective. Yet we're talking about a 25 point Ring.

Not that I have any better solutions: as said earlier, my way of countering it last time was to suicide my Dragon Princes into the Black Guard carrying it. So I gave my opponent 350 VPs to get rid of it. Was it worth it? Hell yeah. And I'll bet you agree with me too. Just think what I'm actually saying though: the Ring is such a game-changer, that I'm willing to lose a unit worth 250 points for the chance to take it out.

(And, for reference, the Black Guard did not have ASF banner: if they had, then I'd have never been able to get it. How much of your army are YOU willing to sacrifice to destroy a 25 point magic item?)

And one final note for the Ring of Corin: it's useless vs Daemons. When your solution is to take an item that makes your army less effective vs one of the only armies out there more powerful than your target, then something aint right there either.

Hrogoff the Destructor
17-08-2009, 16:52
One evil strategy I've heard for killing a hydra begins with shooting off its handlers, which may cause it to become stupid or rooted in place anyway.

My understanding is that you cannot target the handlers from shooting as they hide behind the hydra. Even then, it's usually hidden turn one so I can't shoot it. Then it'll pop out for one turn before charging, only giving me one good turn of shooting at it.


Magic's the best way, flaming if possible. You can also kill a Handler to force a panic check (e.g. Steal Soul). A charge from ~6 Dragon Princes has a good chance of beating the Hydra, but if you have rubber lances, the unit should be toast.

I usually do use flaming magic against the hydra (my lizards slann is great at this), but my opponent always has the ring on a squad nearby (usually a cold one champion). I swear I miscast 50% of the time against the darn thing even with just 2 dice.

deggaroth
17-08-2009, 17:01
Not that I have any better solutions: as said earlier, my way of countering it last time was to suicide my Dragon Princes into the Black Guard carrying it. So I gave my opponent 350 VPs to get rid of it. Was it worth it? Hell yeah. And I'll bet you agree with me too. Just think what I'm actually saying though: the Ring is such a game-changer, that I'm willing to lose a unit worth 250 points for the chance to take it out.


You did what with who at what time? :eyebrows:

Why did you do this?:eyebrows:

Now, I understand why people think the ring is so overpowered. I'm glad my High Elf opponent actually uses tactics to get around the ring instead of getting so obsessed with killing one item that he'll actually sacrifice this type of VPs to kill it. Otherwise games would get so bleeding boring.

EvC
17-08-2009, 17:04
You should tell your dice that warseer sez that 2-dice castings almost never miscast. If they still disobey you, use some pink filler text in your reply, that always works ;)

Do look on the good side of the Ring of Hotek though: if your opponent is letting his Hydra's position be partially decided by where his Hotek is, then you can use that against him. You can approach things like chariots to fairly close of the Hydra knowing that if he charges then his Hydra will be dragged a fair way away from his battle-line and be exposed to fire magic the next turn (though it will cost you your chariot just for this!). In the game mentioned above vs Hotek DE last week my opponent's ENTIRE army was deployed within 12" of the Ring to keep them safe- when the Ring was destroyed, a couple of castings of things like Burning Head and Cleansing Flare annihilated vast amounts of his force.

deggaroth, don't ask stupid questions. Any decent general will tell you that sometimes it is worth sacrificing important units against seemingly inocuous (or simply cheap) targets, especially when they're vastly underpriced. By removing the Ring of Hotek it gave me free reign in the magic phase, to do the above (written before your dumb post) and cripple his army, which could not have been done if the Ring were still there. Given that my opponent conceded on turn 3 in that game, it's fairly obvious that my tactic worked extremely well. Although a game that goes to only 3 turns because of one player vastly outplaying his opponent may indeed be classed as "boring", I must admit. You probably do enjoy your games a lot better when your opponents try "tactics" to get around the Ring that are nowhere near as effective.

Marshal Torrick
17-08-2009, 17:28
One Anti-Hydra thing that sticks out in my mind is the Banner that takes away the opponents Hate and Frenzy and makes your unit and the other ItP. 6 Dragon Princes with this banner might be able to do it since the Hydra will:
7 attacks
3.5 hits
2.91 wounds
1.45 wounds after armor

Handlers ought to be dead from the DPs being so wide, so monster reaction test as well as:
9 DP attacks
4.5 hits
2.25 wounds
1.875 through Scaly Skin
.937 through regen

Horses helped kill the handlers, but are unlikely to do much against the lizard.

So at the end
DPs: 3 wounds, banner, weight
Hydra: Let's round up to 2 wounds - Loses by 3, tests on 5 I think.

It's sorta tailoring since people don't often take the banner, but it's handy considering how much fear and terror there is out there.

Hrogoff the Destructor
17-08-2009, 17:45
Horses helped kill the handlers, but are unlikely to do much against the lizard.

I thought the handlers could not be targeted by range or close combat attacks as they hid behind the hydra?

Draconian77
17-08-2009, 17:50
Off the top of my head things that are ridculous for their points value;
~Morks Spirit Totem
~Siren Song(I have no idea how this got past playtesting...)
~Master of Sorcery
~Hail of Doom Arrow
~Annoyance of Netlings
~Van Horstmans Speculum
~Lord of the Dead
~Book of Arkhan

Now, I don't really see how you can say with any certainty that these items will have less effect on a game than the Ring. I mean, lets think rationally. The Ring only works on about 50% of the armies out there, these(with the exception of MST) work against everybody.

I don't think I need to go into them in detail, you all know what they do and how influential they are. None of them are expensive either.

As for casualty removal(Think it was Kerill?) if the character is on the side of the unit, what do you do? What about monsters who you won't kill in 1 round of combat? Units of 3-4 Us3 models with saves?(Think Treekin or Trolls) Flankers? All of these things will still kill the unit champion if he is placed on the corner. Experience has thought me that placing him on the corner provides a few benefits for a few disadvantages.

With regards to the Ring and 2 dice casting...I really don't know why EVC keeps saying that the DE said that players won't miscast on 2 dice. I can't see that anywhere in the thread... What we did say was that if you have the option of going for 1 or 2 dice casts over 3 or 4 dice casts then do so as it will reduce the amount of miscasts you take.


In the game mentioned above vs Hotek DE last week my opponent's ENTIRE army was deployed within 12" of the Ring to keep them safe- when the Ring was destroyed, a couple of castings of things like Burning Head and Cleansing Flare annihilated vast amounts of his force.

To be fair EVC, this says a lot about how badly magic defense is needed in the DE army...(any army except Undead or DoC who generally have loads of magic defense anyway!)

All of this just leads me to my previous conclusion;

1: Without the Ring most Dark Elves would play magic heavy for the defensive benefits. This could lead to avoidance based lists...not a lot of fun to play against.
2: The Ring can be played around, changes the way the DE army plays and should included in your thought process when choosing lores and casting spells. People who tell me how often they are to miscast on 3~4 dice when the Ring is present get nothing but my scorn...you shouldn't be casting on 3~4 dice when the Ring is around in the first place! :D
3: It's not going away any time soon...

With regards to DE vs HE, I still give 6/10 wins to the DE in a non list-tailored enviroment. They do have the stronger book all told.


I thought the handlers could not be targeted by range or close combat attacks as they hid behind the hydra?

This is correct in most circumstances, I don't know what he's talking about...shooting at the handlers is not possible assuming regular missile units.


Even though it's not required; Pink filler. :p

deggaroth
17-08-2009, 17:57
deggaroth, don't ask stupid questions. Any decent general will tell you that sometimes it is worth sacrificing important units against seemingly inocuous (or simply cheap) targets, especially when they're vastly underpriced. By removing the Ring of Hotek it gave me free reign in the magic phase, to do the above (written before your dumb post) and cripple his army, which could not have been done if the Ring were still there. Given that my opponent conceded on turn 3 in that game, it's fairly obvious that my tactic worked extremely well. Although a game that goes to only 3 turns because of one player vastly outplaying his opponent may indeed be classed as "boring", I must admit. You probably do enjoy your games a lot better when your opponents try "tactics" to get around the Ring that are nowhere near as effective.

Rofl, I think hit a nerve. If you won the game by using a bait why are you whining? I interpret most of these whines to be reasons for people being unable to win against Ring of Hotek. I have to use similar means to beat daemons, VC, and ironically some HE lists since I don't have BG but you don't see me whining, because I can actually beat them. :eyebrows: For the record my HE opponents tactics to get around the ring are quite effective, seeing as most of our games end up in a bloodbath.

LKHERO
17-08-2009, 18:06
This thread is god awful.

The title of the thread reads HIGH ELVES vs. DARK ELVES. When you pit the two armies against eachother; Dark Elves have the upper hand. When you rank which army is better overall as the book, Dark Elves are better.

That's the end of it. Dark Elves have better items, which leads to better unit combinations, which leads to better army composition, which leads to be a better army. End.

As for the Ring of Corin argument, there is no argument. My DE list has a scroll caddy + Ring. That's all the magic defense I need. Good luck getting a BL3 one-time use item off against a competent player.

I no longer play against DE with my High Elves. I give them a taste of their own bull&*(# with my Thorek-based Dwarf army. Eat it Hydras.

Fyi, My DE list looks something like (at 2250).

Dreadlord on Black Dragon w/ Crimson Death and Pendant.
Master w/ Halberd, mounted with Pearl.
Sorc, scroll caddy.

Dark Rider core fillers.
Black Guard (Ring)
Shades w/ Assassin
5x CoK or Spearmen. I have both.

2x Hydras

I know my HE can't beat this list. I also know that this list has beat every single type of HE list out there; going from standard to power builds, played by good people. It's just too much for HE to handle.

EvC
17-08-2009, 18:39
[COLOR="Pink"]Off the top of my head things that are ridculous for their points value;
~Morks Spirit Totem

About 50 points, plus requires a massive unit of overpriced infantry? It's good, but it's no hotek, especially in such a weak list. Most of your other suggestions are right on the mark though (Not the VC ones though, Book of Arkhan was made more expensive with 6" less range when the VC book was updated, which was the right direction, although the Master powers like Summon Ghouls are certainly quite naughty when combined with loadsa power dice).


Now, I don't really see how you can say with any certainty that these items will have less effect on a game than the Ring. I mean, lets think rationally. The Ring only works on about 50% of the armies out there, these(with the exception of MST) work against everybody.

I'd say about 2/3 of the armies, but your point is correct. However, just because it is limited vs Dwarfs and other armies with no magic does not make it fine. In fact, go compare it to other armies that try to get away with no magic: what options do they get for 25 points to neuter enemy magic?


None of them are expensive either.

Well, other than the Spirit Totem. But none of those mentioned can go on a unit champion either ;)


With regards to the Ring and 2 dice casting...I really don't know why EVC keeps saying that the DE said that players won't miscast on 2 dice.

It's called dramatic license, like how you said I "keep saying it", when I said it was in fact just once, off the cuff. We're not guilty! :D


To be fair EVC, this says a lot about how badly magic defense is needed in the DE army...

It also says that sometimes MSU doesn't work and will get you smashed. But indeed DE are vulnerable, but why should DE be the one army that gets the easy and vastly underpriced option? It's like High Elf Dragon Armour granting a dragon immunity to fire attacks: stupid and out of place in a fair game.


1: Without the Ring most Dark Elves would play magic heavy for the defensive benefits. This could lead to avoidance based lists...not a lot of fun to play against.

Well, they can easily gain access to MR and take an extra dispel dice on one character, but yeah, the best defence is having offence, problematically.


2: The Ring can be played around, changes the way the DE army plays and should included in your thought process when choosing lores and casting spells. People who tell me how often they are to miscast on 3~4 dice when the Ring is present get nothing but my scorn...you shouldn't be casting on 3~4 dice when the Ring is around in the first place! :D

Indeed, this is our major point of ...agreement! Rather than complaining about the Ring of Hotek because your standard 4-5 dice casting tricks don't work, people should be able to work around it. It's really not the hardest thing in the world, but people are very set in their ways. I had some other High Elf players look at me like I was mad for suggesting things like Lore of Shadow (For Unseen Lurker, and even, god forbid, Crown of Taindron) or Lore of Light (Little magic missile to cast on 1-2 dice, healing spell for Dragon/Mage, and cast Cleansing Flare from more than 12" from Hotek for ultimate winnage), both working extremely well for me.

I'll still take issue with people pretending it's not very powerful, because it really is, or waving it off by saying you can get around it, or other powerful items exist as well. I can play against enemies with 200 points less than them, and can still win- but that doesn't make it a fair match-up :)


3: It's not going away any time soon...

Ah, but it might, with understanding ;) A lot of expert tournament organisers and players have noticed the massive Dark Elf disrepency; my own club had a doubles tournament the other month, with Dark Elves claiming all the top slots (No teams were allowed doubles of the same army, but DE were taken in all the top armies). Having free access to powers that should only be possible on Lords, like Ring of Hotek and Pendant of Khaeleth (plus general army power) really boosted them, whilst we took steps to limit other things like Engines, Wraiths and Flamers. Similarly with the ETC, the Dark Elves were far and away the most popular army, and while the comp did beat down the Vamps and Daemons, it barely touched on the Dark Elves' powers. Suggestions like having the Ring of Hotek take up a rare slot in some competitions are being considered, as those "smart players" I mentioned to you before understand the true power of the Dark Elf army list.

Enjoying the discussion with you, now onto the interlopers :p


Rofl, I think hit a nerve. If you won the game by using a bait why are you whining?

I was saying that the removal of the Ring often necessitates far more effort than its cost suggests should be necessary. If my statement of fact looks like a whine to you, then that just shows that the truth is not so pleasant. The definition of whining is not "any statement that I disagree with, that makes something I use look powerful", despite how often ****** (not yourself, of course) try to pretend it is.


I interpret most of these whines to be reasons for people being unable to win against Ring of Hotek.

Not only do you call truth "whining", you also go on to then say I'm whining because I can't beat them. Even though I did. Three times in the last two weeks, with no losses, using exactly the type of army that would be hit the hardest against it.

This is a discussion. If you want to pretend this is a whinefest by people unable to beat Dark Elves, you're wrong, and an idiot as well, and add nothing to the thread. Show us this isn't the case: feel free to start talking with us instead of just calling everyone who disagrees with you a whiner over and over and making vague mentions of "use tactics" like a broken record.


I have to use similar means to beat daemons, VC, and ironically some HE lists since I don't have BG but you don't see me whining, because I can actually beat them.

Similar means to what? similar to me (the tactics you called boring), or similar to the unmentioned "tactics" you have said your HE opponents use yet have failed to describe in any genuine manner whatsoever...

fubukii
17-08-2009, 19:04
other thing to consider to beat the ring is AOE magic as its uneffected by the ring

Comets, and other aoe spells suddenly become useful vs dark elves.

Kerill
17-08-2009, 19:42
Completely agree with EVC. Massively. The issue isn't whining- the ring exists, as does the pendant, of course we have to find ways to deal with them but DE players continually try to claim it isn't a game breaking item- it is. Draconian is claiming the ring doesn't work against 2 dice casts, I provided the figures to proove it is still very effective against two dice casts. Supporting this is a random 50% of armies aren't affected nonsense. Many armies are affected and the ring bearer is extremely hard to take down- and DE plaer suggestions on how to do this easily are generally nonsense. Putting up straw men arguments all the time.

I've played against orcs and goblins with 9DD and -1 to my power dice and two scrolls (spirit totem, staff of sneaky stealing) and the ring provides greater defence to the important things. I played against dwarves with 3 destroy "scrolls", 10 dd, -1 to my PD and 3 "scrolls" and only got a single spell through all game- but that doesn't bother me at all since my opponent had to invest significant points in magic defence to do so. 25 point item on a unit champion should not be that effective. Also, as an all-comer's list hilst that anti-magic will almost certainly more than make its points back against a magic heavy list, its a lot of points down the drain against a low/no magic list- and this is how warhammer should be- every army should need to make difficult choices for the list they bring to the table and then try to deal with any shortfalls using tactics on the tabletop. I honestly can't see the benefit of always having your cake and eating it without needing to deal with any difficult choices. I think that's actually less fun (entirely personal opinion). I don't want my list to be the same as every other one on the internet, I want it to be, whilst effective, something I've developed as something I'm comfortable playing with against almost any army.

I had a game against DE last week with ring, pendant, BG deathstar and all the tricks and pulled out a minor win by out-deploying my opponent and by feeding over half my army into the grinder to preserve the remainder. Don't get me wrong though, the fact that any unit in my WOC army won't have a chance of winning against the BG deathstar (or dragon) leaves a sour taste in my mouth, especially when the only other option is neutered so badly, but hell in those kinds of games a minor win feels like a massacre and a minor/solid loss feels like a victory. I don't mind losing as long as its a decent game and I don't enjoy winning when my opponent has no chance to win from the get go.


The endless but empty (in terms of ideas) calls from DE players to use "tactics" really sticks in the craw. Not casting spells on 3/4 dice near the ring isn't a tactic its common sense, but even 2 dice spells near the ring are very dangerous despite how often this "tactical advice" is offered by DE players. I tend to look round a lot of forums for different armies and I saw on druchii.net a post on shadestar tactics describing it as a finesse army. I almost laughed out loud at that.

A further point is that an awful lot of armies need to list tailor to go against the DE builds- something which is a sign to me of serious overpoweredness.

The dark elf list has great fluff, great models, a wonderful mix of tactical options and after years in the wilderness of weakness deserved and needed a boost. I hope DE players out there are enjoying their army, their models, and warhammer in general, but at the same time actually admitting some things in the list are overpowered when they undoubtedly are really shouldn't be that difficult.

LKHERO
17-08-2009, 20:11
in those kinds of games a minor win feels like a massacre and a minor/solid loss feels like a victory.

This is the one sentence that every player should read and let it sink in. Some things in the game just shouldn't be that way because of this.

Sarah S
18-08-2009, 00:16
Dark Elves are far more bent than Daemons.

The average Dark Elf player just seems like they go around telling everyone how hard it is for them to keep beating the ever-loving P*SS out of everyone all the time. They are doing it so much that some people out there actually believe them.

Daemons didn't have any cheerleaders, while it seems like every single Dark Elf player is willing to go on at great length how hard it is to win every single game with their overpriced Hydras and Crossbowmen, and magic items and warriors, and how they are all just tactical geniuses, and everyone else is just a stupid fool for not being able to beat them.

It's nothing but a PR campaign. I would rather see Daemons on the other side of the table instead of Dark Elves any day of the week.

Emeraldw
18-08-2009, 01:58
Dark Elves are far more bent than Daemons.

The average Dark Elf player just seems like they go around telling everyone how hard it is for them to keep beating the ever-loving P*SS out of everyone all the time. They are doing it so much that some people out there actually believe them.

Daemons didn't have any cheerleaders, while it seems like every single Dark Elf player is willing to go on at great length how hard it is to win every single game with their overpriced Hydras and Crossbowmen, and magic items and warriors, and how they are all just tactical geniuses, and everyone else is just a stupid fool for not being able to beat them.

It's nothing but a PR campaign. I would rather see Daemons on the other side of the table instead of Dark Elves any day of the week.

I think you exaggerate a little, but Dark Elves have gotten a lot of defense. however this is largely from one individual in particular who has been quite vocal. I have been reading this thread since the start and there seems to be a general consensus that Dark Elves are indeed on the same level of power as DoC and VC.

I admit that I am biased as I believe they are top tier too but there does appear to be a common theme with a lot of people siding on the "op" side than the "balanced" side.

That said, it all books come down to restraint. Thankfully I have taught that to the new players I play with.

kardar233
18-08-2009, 04:00
Even without the Ring, the fact that DE armies will go magic-heavy for defense is a problem in itself.

Consider this: The Dark Elf Lore of Dark Magic is the second-most powerful offensive lore there is in the game, a notch or two below the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch. Including Powers of Darkness, the sheer amount of damage capacity that Dark Elf magic can dish out will overwhelm practically any non-Dwarf magic defense. I'd definitely be more scared by an all-Sorc led army with a Dragon Rider using the Focus Familiar or Black Staff than the standard build relying on the Ring for defense.


Of course, I'm a VC player, so take my opinion with a grain salt.

fubukii
18-08-2009, 04:05
minus, black horror most of the spells are kinda iffy overal

Power of darkness is nice sure.
Bladewind sucks.
Doombolt is ok
Word of pain is a nice defensive spell.
Soul stealer is pretty good vs your average t3 unit not so much so vs t4 units or small elite units of high toughness guys
black horror can be downright nasty vs blocks of moderately strengthed models.

Its a solid lore by all means but not the 2nd best offensive lore by any means. Id say skaven magic is better for sure, along with some others.

Copella
18-08-2009, 04:41
Even without the Ring, the fact that DE armies will go magic-heavy for defense is a problem in itself.

Consider this: The Dark Elf Lore of Dark Magic is the second-most powerful offensive lore there is in the game, a notch or two below the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch. Including Powers of Darkness, the sheer amount of damage capacity that Dark Elf magic can dish out will overwhelm practically any non-Dwarf magic defense. I'd definitely be more scared by an all-Sorc led army with a Dragon Rider using the Focus Familiar or Black Staff than the standard build relying on the Ring for defense.


If the ring is in the army, you at least don't have to worry about DE's magic phase. It's not what is going to kill you.

To those that think DE armies are crazy OP: I gotta ask, what kind of lists are you playing against? double hydra, multiple flying terror bombs, shade spam, BG w/ super friends, etc.? I will agree, those lists can be pretty crazy. They do fall into the category of Thorek gunline, DoC mono Tzeentch, VC's Mannfred and Conrad combo, any massive raising/summoning armies, etc. A perfect example of HE aggravation is something like Star Dragon, Teclis, 2 units of Archers, 4 RBTs and some Chariots.
Saying DE are totally OP is certainly off target. While they have some really powerful units (which if spammed, does become OP), they have a lot of units that are easy to kill off. If my blocks of infantry survive a game, I'm surprised. Same goes with my Dark Riders. Usually my black guard take some shooting, than end up tar pitting something for the rest of the game. My warriors usually die, unless I go out of my way to protect them with magic and an assassin.

So unless people are playing some super abusive lists (which all armies have) than I really don't see too much of a problem.

Sarah S
18-08-2009, 04:54
So unless people are playing some super abusive lists (which all armies have) than I really don't see too much of a problem.

The ring in any army is always a problem.
A Hydra in any army is always a problem. 2 is a nightmare.
The Pendant of Khaeleth is always a problem.
ASF Black Guard is always a problem.

The rest of the army is damn good. Hatred is damn good (though it has its disadvantages). Repeater Crossbows are damn good. Assassins are damn good. Cold One Knights are damn good. Dark Riders are damn good. Shades are damn good. Dark Magic is damn good. The rest of the magic items are damn good. I haven't faced a single Dark Elf list without 3/4 of the above "problems." Almost every single Dark Elf list I have played against has the Pendant, Ring, at least 1 (usually 2) Hydra(s) and a huge block of ASF Black Guard. Almost without exception.

So a solid core of really annoying crap, stuff that makes the Daemon list look tame in comparison, backed up by excellent "everything else" makes for a damn hard army.

sulla
18-08-2009, 05:44
To those that think DE armies are crazy OP: Why are you even bothering? The original post was answered in the first page or two. You've got no more chance of convincing the handful of fanatics left in here than you have at bringing peace to the middle east. :)

Draconian77
18-08-2009, 06:01
About 50 points, plus requires a massive unit of overpriced infantry? It's good, but it's no hotek, especially in such a weak list.

Well, the book being what it is the item itself doesn't get to shine as brightly as it would in say, a DoC list. But it's still a quality item. I think a lot of people like to look at items based on the 2k-2.5k range, the Spirit Totem is good here. It's truly excellent at less than 2k though.

I'd say about 2/3 of the armies, but your point is correct. However, just because it is limited vs Dwarfs and other armies with no magic does not make it fine.

The numbers are up for debate but in general I agree.

In fact, go compare it to other armies that try to get away with no magic: what options do they get for 25 points to neuter enemy magic?

Generally just magic resistence stuff, in general I'm not a fan of how MR works in WHFB anyway. Maybe in the future more books will have access to decent non-arcane magic defense, we just don't know. Well, at least DoC can take DD as Core choices...

Well, other than the Spirit Totem. But none of those mentioned can go on a unit champion either.

Ah, very true! I'm still hung up on the pro's on con's of using the unit champion but at the end of the day, it's better to have the option than to not have it. To be fair, being a 50pts magical banner, MST isn't really expensive.

It's called dramatic license, like how you said I "keep saying it", when I said it was in fact just once, off the cuff. We're not guilty!

Clearly. :angel:

It also says that sometimes MSU doesn't work and will get you smashed. But indeed DE are vulnerable, but why should DE be the one army that gets the easy and vastly underpriced option? It's like High Elf Dragon Armour granting a dragon immunity to fire attacks: stupid and out of place in a fair game.

Why the DE? Just to make them a little unique I guess. I mean, imagine that you're a designer, the race that you're working on needs better magic defense and you have to give it to them but you don't want to use existing ideas(Too common, boring to the playerbase?)

In fairness that's a strange question to ask a WHFB player, it's like asking why all Lizardmen get an awesome LD buff or why all DoC have a Ward save. We could discuss fluff, game mechanics, designer will, the games history and such, but we would never really come to a conclusion.

"Everything is a gimmick!" would be my best shot at an answer to the original question. Make of that what you will.

*Dragon armour in general doesn't work in it's current form, it should make you immune to pure flaming attacks, not things such as flaming cannonballs...but I guess that's a different subject.

Well, they can easily gain access to MR and take an extra dispel dice on one character, but yeah, the best defence is having offence, problematically.

The MR option is a little strange, being 15pts(meaning unit champions are maxed at 1 and waste points) and being a Talisman obviously shuts out lots of combos. The extra Dispel Dice is about 5-10pts too expensive. I rarely ever see the item chosen to be honest.

Hopefully one day the magic phase will be altered. That's really all we can hope for.

Wouldn't it be rather amusing if the Miscast table was to become much less dangerous next edition? :rolleyes:

Indeed, this is our major point of ...agreement! Rather than complaining about the Ring of Hotek because your standard 4-5 dice casting tricks don't work, people should be able to work around it. It's really not the hardest thing in the world, but people are very set in their ways. I had some other High Elf players look at me like I was mad for suggesting things like Lore of Shadow (For Unseen Lurker, and even, god forbid, Crown of Taindron) or Lore of Light (Little magic missile to cast on 1-2 dice, healing spell for Dragon/Mage, and cast Cleansing Flare from more than 12" from Hotek for ultimate winnage), both working extremely well for me.

I'd also add the Lore of Beasts to that list. That paragraph is a nice example of adaptation.

I'll still take issue with people pretending it's not very powerful, because it really is, or waving it off by saying you can get around it, or other powerful items exist as well.

I'm the guy who sits in the corner telling everyone that it is both a powerful item and that it can be played around, just like the other powerful items that exist... :p

I can play against enemies with 200 points less than them, and can still win- but that doesn't make it a fair match-up :)

That depends on our defination of fair doesn't it? To my mind as long as I have a chance of winning from the get-go the game's probably fair, even if the point's aren't even. I'm sure you can understand that point of view.

Having free access to powers that should only be possible on Lords, like Ring of Hotek and Pendant of Khaeleth (plus general army power) really boosted them, whilst we took steps to limit other things like Engines, Wraiths and Flamers. Similarly with the ETC, the Dark Elves were far and away the most popular army, and while the comp did beat down the Vamps and Daemons, it barely touched on the Dark Elves' powers.

Well, I'll come right out and say that I'm not a big fan of this sort of comp system, but it does strike me as odd that they would hit the Stank, Flamers, etc and miss the DE. In fact if you think about it, was the Druchii's domination a surprise? It sounds like you neutered a lot of their potential problem units. (Wraiths can be especially tricky for armies with the Ring)

Define "popular". Popular as in there where more of them than all other armies combined(also known as "MEQ syndrome") or popular as in all the power gamers forgot about the DoC and VC's and rode the upon Druchii express?

Enjoying the discussion with you, now onto the interlopers.

Likewise.(Although the jovial friction earlier on was fun too!) I'm sure a few sublte attacks on their intellect or reasoning will see them off. Let's just say I have the utmost confidence in you. :)

*You use quite a few smilies, most of these have been edited out to facilitate posting!




The ring in any army is always a problem.
A Hydra in any army is always a problem. 2 is a nightmare.
The Pendant of Khaeleth is always a problem.
ASF Black Guard is always a problem.



Well surely you actually have to be using offensive magic for the Ring cause problems? Let's not exaggerate here.
In my experience two is a bad match-up waiting to happen. Big flying beasties only really fear artillery and the 6 turn limit...;)
As for the other two, I just disagree in general. But hey-ho, sulla has the right of it in any case.

6AM

That's all for tonight...sleep required...

Hrogoff the Destructor
18-08-2009, 06:06
The ring in any army is always a problem.
A Hydra in any army is always a problem. 2 is a nightmare.
The Pendant of Khaeleth is always a problem.
ASF Black Guard is always a problem.

In the stores around here, about 50% of the DE players (which is now a majority of the fantasy players) take the four problems listed in the same army. One of them isn't too bad by itself, but then you add another, and another, and then it ultimately creates a snowball effect that's really hard to deal with. While my Lizards and Chaos have a good track record against DE's, I don't think my High Elves or Brets will. The way I see it is, is whatever my HE's can do, DE's can do better.

EvC
18-08-2009, 13:58
Well, I'll come right out and say that I'm not a big fan of this sort of comp system, but it does strike me as odd that they would hit the Stank, Flamers, etc and miss the DE. In fact if you think about it, was the Druchii's domination a surprise? It sounds like you neutered a lot of their potential problem units. (Wraiths can be especially tricky for armies with the Ring)

Well with the ETC a strong core of Dark Elf players kept insisting that the army is entirely fair, takes skill to use, and other various arguments of varying validity. It did seem very wrong for me, looking at how they really hit Vampire Counts in many ways (who actually did very poorly at the ETC- though that may be due to the tactics specifically employed by that army do force draws), but pretty much the only hit the DE took was Pendant taking a hero choice.


Define "popular". Popular as in there where more of them than all other armies combined(also known as "MEQ syndrome") or popular as in all the power gamers forgot about the DoC and VC's and rode the upon Druchii express?

There were more DE than any other army- in the ETC system each country can only bring one of each army so there's no possibility of any army dominating to that extent. But it does seem that the DE were the major power army there- them and Lizardmen (Who again had some powers heavily glossed over, but that's cos they're new).

willowdark
18-08-2009, 16:50
Dark Elves are far more bent than Daemons.

The average Dark Elf player just seems like they go around telling everyone how hard it is for them to keep beating the ever-loving P*SS out of everyone all the time. They are doing it so much that some people out there actually believe them.

Daemons didn't have any cheerleaders, while it seems like every single Dark Elf player is willing to go on at great length how hard it is to win every single game with their overpriced Hydras and Crossbowmen, and magic items and warriors, and how they are all just tactical geniuses, and everyone else is just a stupid fool for not being able to beat them.

It's nothing but a PR campaign. I would rather see Daemons on the other side of the table instead of Dark Elves any day of the week.

Wrong. This thread has soiled itself with this kind of hateful filth, to which a _number_ of Dark Elf players have objected.

That being said, I do find it disheartening how prevalent ASF BG w/ multiple characters and/or unkillable Dreadlord truly seem to be. That is a unit I do have a thorough distaste for. I played ASF BG w/ Crimson death champ and no characters in the beginning, but even that seemed to easy. I truly felt that I was winning games even when I was out played.

For what its worth, here is what I'm running.

Lvl4 on Peg, 2 scrolls, power stone and the Focus Familiar.
Lvl2 on steed with Tome of Furion and a power stone.
Assassin w/ RoK and Manbane, EHW.

20 Warriors w/ Shields, full command and the Warbanner.
2 x 10 RxBs w/ Shields and musicians.
3 x 5 Harpies.

6 CoK w/ full command, Standard of Slaughter and the Ring of Hotek.
9 Shades w/ GW and a Blood Shade.
1 Cold One Chariot.

Hydra.
2 RBTs.

I've also run this list without the Hydra, taking 3 Bolt Throwers and a second Chariot.

But sure, I have a Hydra, multiple harpies and the Ring.

I do not have an unkillable Dreadlord, ASF BG, st7 Throwing Stars, Dragon, second Hydra, or Dark Riders as pure core filler. The list is very balanced. What it does, it does well. But if I don't play well, this list won't win on its own.

Some people keep bringing up Druchii.net. Many of the veteran players there are avoiding the big power builds, opting for more creative builds like the Dragon Mage or Corsair/Witch Elf CoB lists. Clearly what's happening here is that the anti-DE crowd has been overexposed to a short sighted, uninspired gaming population. This is not the Books fault. All Books are guilty of this.

More Broke than Daemons!?! I shutter to think.

Just this past weekend I faced a Lord of Change and mixed Tzeentch/Slaanesh list and lost.

LoC charged my CoKs w/ RoH. He goes for Gift of Chaos, clearly forgetting that the Ring is always on that unit for me, or maybe he knew he was safe. He rolls double 5's. Miscast! the only hope I had of surviving, albeit a slim one. But he has Tzeentch's will and re-rolls it, avoiding the miscast. Sure, he pays 70 points for that gift, but for only 45 points more than the ring it's a lot more versatile. He wipes my CoKs with his flying Terror causer and spend the rest of the game behind my lines chasing my mages around. I put 3 wounds on him with my Manbane Assassin, but couldn't do any worse.

5 Flamers shot my Hydra and wiped it out turn 2. Sure they rolled high, but for only marginally more points, they owned it completely.

Scream about army imbalances all you want, and include DE when you do. Fine. But don't **** on responsible players out to have a good time because you hate DE the most simply because they are the most popular. Focus on the abusers and leave the abused alone. The book deserves better.

LKHERO
18-08-2009, 17:31
Not more broken than Daemons, but 2nd or 3rd depending on which army they fight against.

Daemons is in another tier of ************. Matt Ward should be shot in the face repeatedly for the atrocity he committed to the Warhammer community. The entire tournament scene is ruined because of him. **** that guy.

Copella
18-08-2009, 17:43
Some people are just too set in their ways. No wonder they scream so much, when something makes them have to rethink their way through the game.

EvC
18-08-2009, 17:49
Some people keep bringing up Druchii.net. Many of the veteran players there are avoiding the big power builds, opting for more creative builds like the Dragon Mage or Corsair/Witch Elf CoB lists. Clearly what's happening here is that the anti-DE crowd has been overexposed to a short sighted, uninspired gaming population. This is not the Books fault. All Books are guilty of this.

Well, not been mentioned that much, but to face facts, most lists ther are the usual uninspired dirge (usually given high 5s by other posters). The more accurate name for the "Dragon Mage" lists is the "Dragunline", because they invariably are backed up by a hundred or more shots per turn. Plus with it being GT season now, the vast majority of lists are tending towards the Dreadlord on Dragon + all tricks and toys, as well they should for the cheesiest tournament on the planet!

I would like to think I've been over exposed to the same old styles, but to be honest, I've played in a half dozen different gaming environments, and it's almost always the same with Dark Elves. Start off with a piece of paper saying:
Pendant of Khaeleth
Ring of Hotek
Banner of Hag Graef
Hydra
and then fill in the blanks, usually with a Dragon. And then tell everyone how balanced the list is because it's only got 1 Hydra and 2 RBT rather than double Hydra.

The last Dark Elf list I played against that I considered fair, balanced and "not the usual filth" had a Manticore, Executioners, and only three of the above tricks. After I beat him down with good old ranks and flanks, he went back to the Dragunline boredom list. Before that, I played against one of the top players in the UK, who has won the GT, and his list seemed totally fair. Okay, it had an unkillable Dreadlord, but he was only on a Dark Steed, and he couldn't kill much. Ok, he did kill loads, but that was only because of the Cauldron buffing him, and the Potion of Strength. And hatred. I was smart enough to not let him take advantage of the ASF he had from hanging out with the Black Guard though! He did of course have Ring of Hotek and a Hydra... and oops oh look, his army actually had every trick in the book apart from a Dragon. But I was so amazed to see a regular old Master, leading a block of Spearmen (not bonus power dice as they're more commonly known!!), that the rest of his army seemed fair.

Because, that is about as fair as it gets. Witch Elf and Corsair lists? Yes please. But we all know that as soon as there's a hinting of a tournament, they're going to be blowing the dust off their Black Dragons. No complaint from me, but I'm not going to pretend that a Dreadlord who is either unkillable OR un-magickable riding a dragon with hatred requires any more skill to use than a Bloodthirster (even if Daemons are far, far more broken).

willowdark
18-08-2009, 18:24
really, how much variation do you see in tournaments, whichever the army?

Tournaments encourage monoculturing, plain and simple. People bring there star units because they want to win. it's no different than a championship team playing their 1st string players. You wouldn't bench your star running back during the playoffs because you want to try out a "soft list." You go there to win, so don't complain when others do the same.

No matter how balanced a book is there will always be one combination of elements that stands above the rest. TBH, I give Daemons a lot of credit for providing so many power builds. At least they offer a variety of cheese. If your bored with the tournament scene, stay home. Stay in your familiar gaming environment where no one plays for trophies and readjust your perception of the game. Take a break.

You make good points EvC, but none of it justifies the bile that LKHERO and Sarah S have painted this debate with. and none of it refutes my point. It is the fault of the players for abusing the game. GW has offered it's consumers the _option_ to powergame, if that's how they want to play. Tournaments only encourage this. That's what you're really upset about. Isn't it?

Let's not forget that _this_ thread began over the concerns of a pair of casual gamers over the quality of their non-tournament games.

LKHERO
18-08-2009, 18:37
No matter how balanced a book is there will always be one combination of elements that stands above the rest. TBH, I give Daemons a lot of credit for providing so many power builds. At least they offer a variety of cheese. If your bored with the tournament scene, stay home. Stay in your familiar gaming environment where no one plays for trophies and readjust your perception of the game. Take a break.

You have to actively try to build a bad Daemon list. So therefore, it's an atrocity to the WH gaming community.

Anyways, here's my DE list:
Dreadlord on Black Dragon w/ Crimson Death and Pendant.
Master w/ Halberd, mounted with Pearl.
Sorc, scroll caddy.

Dark Rider core fillers.
Black Guard (ASF, Ring)
Shades w/ Assassin
5x CoK or Spearmen. I have both.

2x Hydras

It's my all-comers list, that's designed to fight all armies. But for the sake of discussion, no High Elf list can beat this. I wonder why?

willowdark
18-08-2009, 18:49
Am I well established enough here to get away with a [/Facepalm]? Or will I just look like an Internet tagliner?

You really answered your own question. Your list is filthy cheese. Moldy, stinky cheese with various shades of blue. You're a dick, plain and simple.

For the sake of arguments, can we not assume that the OP's friends list, as well as every other list out there, would be a carbon copy of this monstrosity. You don't have to try to build a balanced, clean and fair DE list, so why hate them so badly? The book has more variety than that.

Edit: Refer to my all comers list for comparison. I've been pleased by the overall performance of it, though I'm not above loosing to well played opponents.

LKHERO
18-08-2009, 19:39
You can cry filthy cheese all you want, but my supposedly equally cheesey High Elf builds can't beat this list.

So the point remains: Dark Elves > High Elves in their respected matchup.

willowdark
18-08-2009, 19:44
Except when High Elves win, right?

LKHERO
18-08-2009, 20:19
Except when High Elves win, right?

If High Elves win, then Dark Elves either has a poor general, got drastically outplayed, took a weak list, or any combination of the three.

When both armies are built with strong competitive builds; Dark Elves reign supreme. And the fact that Dark Elves negate the competitive High Elf Teclis build completely with a 25-point item. What say you?

EvC
18-08-2009, 21:01
really, how much variation do you see in tournaments, whichever the army?

Tournaments? Sorry, I wasn't solely discussing tournaments... I was talking about several different gaming groups, some of which play in tournaments, some of which don't. And their armies are all the same level.


You go there to win, so don't complain when others do the same.

Complaining? Observations on how all Dark Elf lists tend to the same, catalysed by tournaments- not a complaint, it's a statement of fact.


No matter how balanced a book is there will always be one combination of elements that stands above the rest. TBH, I give Daemons a lot of credit for providing so many power builds. At least they offer a variety of cheese. If your bored with the tournament scene, stay home. Stay in your familiar gaming environment where no one plays for trophies and readjust your perception of the game. Take a break.

But as I already explained - rather clearly, I felt - that the Dark Elf players I know all take the same style of armies. Tournament players or not, it's all Pendant, Ring, ASF, Hydra and then a Dragon depending on their mood. This isn't just tournament players. It's normal, everyday Dark Elf players. You say that the kind of list used by LKHERO makes him a dick- but that's pretty much the exact same list used by hundreds, if not thousands of Dark Elf players- as is their right. I thought it was us lot who were supposed to be tarring the Dark Elf players?


That's what you're really upset about. Isn't it?

I'm not upset about anything, I'm just faintly concerned that head-in-the-sand types believe that Dark Elf armies are generally the happy-dappy core-heavy, non-tricked, balanced affairs, that take true skill to do well with. They're really not. I saw a Dark Elf battle report last week (a really good one!) where he had no Hydra. That's the only Dark elf army I've ever seen at 1000 points+ without a Hydra. Anyone seen a second?

LKHERO's army reflects the typical Dark Elf army far better than any ideal that exists in our heads. He knows that it's filth, and he accepts that. Yet were you to change one Hydra for two RBT, the typical Dark Elf player would applaud himself for making such a balanced list.

sulla
18-08-2009, 21:03
Dreadlord on Black Dragon w/ Crimson Death and Pendant.
Master w/ Halberd, mounted with Pearl.
Sorc, scroll caddy.

Dark Rider core fillers.
Black Guard (ASF, Ring)
Shades w/ Assassin
5x CoK or Spearmen. I have both.

2x Hydras

It's my all-comers list, that's designed to fight all armies. But for the sake of discussion, no High Elf list can beat this. I wonder why?What makes you so sure 4 bolt throwers couldn't kill the dragon or the knights in a turn? Or a chariot couldn't kill the ringbearer? I could easily make a competitive HE list to play that army. Bet you could too.

EvC
18-08-2009, 21:22
He probably doesn't have the Dragon wade right out in front of 4 RBT every turn? But anyway, how predictable: the way to beat Dark Elves is shooting (chariots, no chance)...

Emeraldw
18-08-2009, 21:36
He probably doesn't have the Dragon wade right out in front of 4 RBT every turn? But anyway, how predictable: the way to beat Dark Elves is shooting (chariots, no chance)...

And Dark Elves are better at both Chariots and Shooting.

So the best way to beat Dark Elves, is....to play Dark Elves? :confused:

LKHERO
18-08-2009, 21:57
What makes you so sure 4 bolt throwers couldn't kill the dragon or the knights in a turn? Or a chariot couldn't kill the ringbearer? I could easily make a competitive HE list to play that army. Bet you could too.

Because I'm not a retard and understand that exposing my Dragon to 4x RBT is to invite death. I would rather hide him until they're neutrailized by Shades or charged by Hydras, or sniped by Dark Riders, or ... the list goes on.

Go ahead and make a hypothetical HE list that's both all-comers and can fight Dark Elves. The answers is you can't. You have to tailor so very hard to fight specifically against Dark Elves.. or lose utterly. Does Dark Elves? Hell no. I take the same army to the table against any army and will do just fine. Do you not see a problem here?

Every High Elf army that I've made pales to comparison to this Dark Elf list of mine.

So what makes this DE list so powerful? 3 Terror causing monsters, an unbreakable center, great harrassment, unrivaled magic protection for cost, deadly flankers and support. The entire army moves fast and hits hard.

What does HE have? A balanced list made from a Lv.4 and Lv.2 with BSB? A Star Dragon and 4x RBT list? A Teclis list? A Dragon Mage list (LOL)? What fights that? You tell me.

willowdark
18-08-2009, 22:26
A Star Dragon w/ 4 bolt throwers, White Lions, chariots of both brands, minimum archers and 2 x 5 Dragon Princes with mage support would be extremely competitive against that list. Both would be super cheesy, would be suitable for all comers and would be evenly matched.

You could hide the Dragon from those bolt throwers, but you'll likely expose your Hydras. If he focuses his magic on your Dark Riders and Harpies he won't need to worry about the Ring, and may even prevent you from neutering his shooting. RBTs take a wound or two off the Hydras and Star Dragon finishes them off. Not guaranteed, but competitive none the less.

LKHERO
18-08-2009, 22:49
Against a Star Dragon list, DE can basically hide the Dragon 1 round, soak up damage with his Hydras and fly the Dragon out the 2nd round. Anything that charges the Dragon gets counter-charged by the DE Dragon. Once they're in combat, RBTs don't care. I'd also like to mention that Shades w/ the Assassin on the RBT's flank causes severe problems for the HE player, especially if Dark Riders are within the flanks of those as well, or even CoKs. The same applies to the Harpies. What are you going to do with your Dragon? Fry the Shades? Charge it and risk your Prince to the Assassin with ASF, higher I, WS, and Killing Blow with +D3 attacks and re-rolls to hit? Have your back turned with your Dragon when there's 2 Hydras ready to charge your ranks while getting flanked by Dark Riders at the same time? It's a *********** bloodbath, and always in the Dark Elves favor.

You have to understand that 400 points of 4x RBT rely on shooting to be effective, and making their points back. That won't happen when most of this army is in combat in round 2. And you can't take Magic because Hotek rapes it. That's why I think your offensive mages are a waste of points vs. Dark Elves.. all because of a 25 point item you can take on a BG champion. Take Lore of Beasts for Beast Cowers? Yeah, good luck with that because of my scroll caddy, 3DD per turn and your ~50% chance to get it off 2 dice.

I can't describe the feeling just right.. you have to play against this kind of list to understand it. In short, I give High Elves a 20% chance of winning vs. Dark Elves when both players know what they're doing; and know how to maximize both their armies to their potential.

yashamaru38
18-08-2009, 23:09
even so i believe LKHERO to be right. when both players know what they are doing and are played to their full potential i believe dark elves to win 75% of the time (il give the high elves some credit). among my gaming group though im known as the elf boy (i play all three types you see). but you see ive played with and against high elves used by an experienced player. i will admit that darkelves, even without the ring, and dragon and hydra and etc.......still have the upper hand. i choose not to take those things purely for the reasons stated before but even so i have beaten my friends Teclis list pretty handily. hell i only take 2 bolt throwers some warriors, crossbowmen and then some elite infantry. no hydra, no ring, no pendant, nothing. and i still find that the dark elves will win out most of the time.

sulla
19-08-2009, 00:56
Go ahead and make a hypothetical HE list that's both all-comers and can fight Dark Elves. The answers is you can't. You have to tailor so very hard to fight specifically against Dark Elves.. or lose utterly. Does Dark Elves?

???Didn't I say that about HE vs DE right in the beginning of this post? Way back when it was on topic? And, yes, DE have to tailor too. Try playing vs HE with no ASF banner, no assassins, limited shooting, magic protection or chariots... Owned in combat, reduced by shooting and blasted by magic.

The problem with the current lists is that DE's tailoring is far more effective vs not only HE but also other armies that are likely to get the charge on them, whereas the HE's tailoring makes them better vs DE but worse vs most other armies out there.


And Dark Elves are better at both Chariots and Shooting.

Better chariots? Do tell...I'll take range over toughness and stupidity anyday.

LKHERO
19-08-2009, 01:11
???Didn't I say that about HE vs DE right in the beginning of this post? Way back when it was on topic? And, yes, DE have to tailor too. Try playing vs HE with no ASF banner, no assassins, limited shooting, magic protection or chariots... Owned in combat, reduced by shooting and blasted by magic.

How is that tailoring? I take that DE list to every game I play.

Sarah S
19-08-2009, 01:21
And, yes, DE have to tailor too. Try playing vs HE with no ASF banner, no assassins, limited shooting, magic protection or chariots... Owned in combat, reduced by shooting and blasted by magic.

LOL! I have never seen a single Dark Elf army without all of the above. That doesn't count as tailoring, it counts as playing Dark Elves.

LKHERO
19-08-2009, 01:24
LOL! I have never seen a single Dark Elf army without all of the above. That doesn't count as tailoring, it counts as playing Dark Elves.

That's because that Dark Elf player is purposely trying to lose.

I would take that list too, if I was playing against someone who has never played before.

Sarah S
19-08-2009, 01:39
That's because that Dark Elf player is purposely trying to lose.

I would take that list too, if I was playing against someone who has never played before.

I mean they all take all of the choices mentioned - ASF Banner, Assassins, shooting, magic protection, chariots etc.

Not that they take "no ASF banner, no assassins, etc."

Tarian
19-08-2009, 01:40
Er... I still think that's pretty standard DE. They're mean buggers...

Draconian77
19-08-2009, 01:54
LKHERO, most of your responses are just slanderous, you always assume that factors are in the DE's favour and you also assume that the HE player is an incompetent fool...:eyebrows:


Because I'm not a retard and understand that exposing my Dragon to 4x RBT is to invite death. I would rather hide him until they're neutrailized by Shades or charged by Hydras, or sniped by Dark Riders, or ... the list goes on.

This for example, makes a mockery of fairness.
Assuming that I was the HE player, I would just neutralise your Shades(tm), pin cushion your Dark Riders with my Repeaters and put some White Lions in front of your Hydras...or kill them with DP's/SD's.
Problem solved. ;)


But for the sake of discussion, no High Elf list can beat this. I wonder why?

This on the other hand, made me laugh a lot! If no HE player can beat that list, you just aren't playing very good players.

With regards to the Chariot debate, Tironics are better than Cold One Chariots, whilst Cold One Chariots are better than White Lion Chariots. (At least, that's how I see it.)


How is that tailoring? I take that DE list to every game I play.

By the sounds of it, you won't use anything that isn't considered powerful or optimised, in that case, the fault doesn't really lie with the book, rather it lies with you and your attitude towards the game.
If you are only concerned with winning, then you would see the same problems with lots of different books had you tried them in earlier editions. (Or even now, DoC, LM and VC's spring to mind.)

The top tournament armies change yearly, whether it was Skyre-Skaven, Brets or WE's the competitive players use those armies. DE will probably never be the top dog in an un-comped enviroment, but that doesn't make it a weak book by any means. Same applies to the HE's.

If your only point is that at the moment one of your "cheesy" armies can easily beat another of your "cheesy" armies because you refuse to try something that isn't consdiered "cheese" I honestly have nothing else to say to you...

*As an aside, that's a bad example of a competitive DE list, you seem to have sacrificed all your effective shooting. A lone Bloodthirster could probably rip apart that list, let alone one with an army backing it up!


But anyway, how predictable: the way to beat Dark Elves is shooting (chariots, no chance)...

This better not be based on the Manbane+Stars Assassin. :D That's a very rare build truth be told. (No one really uses Chariots...except for TK, HE and OnG, all T4.)


But as I already explained - rather clearly, I felt - that the Dark Elf players I know all take the same style of armies. Tournament players or not, it's all Pendant, Ring, ASF, Hydra and then a Dragon depending on their mood. This isn't just tournament players. It's normal, everyday Dark Elf players. You say that the kind of list used by LKHERO makes him a dick- but that's pretty much the exact same list used by hundreds, if not thousands of Dark Elf players- as is their right.

This on the other hand is a good observation. We as a player base see armies that look like replicas of previously encountered armies. This however, isn't a new phenomenon by any means. This is just what a lack of internal balance and the perceived competitive nature of the game puts into effect. If tournaments had an effective comp systems in place or the books where all balanced internally and externally then these problems wouldn't exist.

~This is the same conclusion reached in every single Warseer thread, the game isn't balanced, get over it!~

If you want to win a game of toy soldiers that badly, go for one of the top tier armies, etc, etc. If you just want to have fun, try any army and just take what appeals to you.

Sarah S
19-08-2009, 01:56
DE will probably never be the top dog in an un-comped enviroment, but that doesn't make it a weak book by any means. Same applies to the HE's.

Uhh... I do consider it top dog in un-comped play...

LKHERO
19-08-2009, 02:05
Assuming that I was the HE player, I would just neutralise your Shades(tm), pin cushion your Dark Riders with my Repeaters and put some White Lions in front of your Hydras...
Problem solved.

Right. Pin cushion some Dark Riders while the rest of my army runs down your throat. You don't seem to understand that the High Elf army can't really move against the Dark Elf army because they're immediately set on the defense. The majority of your army moves slower than mine. I have movement advantage, and RBTs can't preform well if I'm in combat with the majority of my troops the 2nd turn of the game.


This on the other hand, made me laugh a lot! If no HE player can beat that list, you just aren't playing very good players.

These are players that's been playing for many years more than me and have participated in many GTs. Do you play High Elves? I play both armies, a lot, competitively and none. Do you? I just want to know where we stand here; or are you another theory-farmer.


*As an aside, that's a bad example of a competitive DE list, you seem to have sacrificed all your effective shooting. A lone Bloodthirster could probably rip apart that list, let alone one with an army backing it up!

A lone Bloodthirster rips up more than just Dark Elf armies so your argument is moot.

Draconian77
19-08-2009, 02:06
@Sarah S

Good for you?

Now please excuse me whilst I paint up more DoC and VC's. :D


Right. Pin cushion some Dark Riders while the rest of my army runs down your throat. You don't seem to understand that the High Elf army can't really move against the Dark Elf army because they're immediately set on the defense. The majority of your army moves slower than mine. I have movement advantage, and RBTs can't preform well if I'm in combat with the majority of my troops the 2nd turn of the game.

Again, what utter rubbish. Our infantry move the same, HE cavalry moves a little faster and apart from that...what are you seeing?

You don't seem to understand that you hid your Dragon behind some terrain to avoid the 4 Bolt Throwers. The one on the defensive from the get go was you, not I. ;) Why on earth is the rest of your army running down my throat a concern? I just double checked your list...If the Dragon is hiding then I can eliminate the Riders as early as I want. The BG move a massive 10"(maybe 5") so they won't be a threat until at least turn 3~4...you have some Hydras/CoK's which I out distance with my Dragon Princes, Tironic Chariots and my Dragon...so, what advantages do you actually have? You can't even touch my Dragon by the looks of things...it could just breath fire all over those expensive and frail BG. :)


These are players that's been playing for many years more than me and have participated in many GTs. Do you play High Elves? I play both armies, a lot, competitively and none. Do you? I just want to know where we stand here; or are you another theory-farmer.

I'm not going to lie and say that I play HE, the only armies that I play consistently are Dark Elves, Empire and Khemri.


A lone Bloodthirster rips up more than just Dark Elf armies so your argument is moot.

More rubbish that, frankly, I expected at this point. Anyone playing with a Bloodthirster is more afraid of artillery than the player with the artillery is of the Bloodthirster. You however, in an attempt to maximise your list didn't take any artillery, giving your "unbeatbale" DE list a weakness.

Sarah S
19-08-2009, 02:08
I'd rather play against Daemons or Vampires any day of the week.

LKHERO
19-08-2009, 02:18
@Sarah S

Good for you?

Now please excuse me whilst I paint up more DoC and VC's. :D



Again, what utter rubbish. Our infantry move the same, HE cavalry moves a little faster and apart from that...what are you seeing?

You don't seem to understand that you hid your Dragon behind some terrain to avoid the 4 Bolt Throwers. The one on the defensive from the get go was you, not I. ;) Why on earth is the rest of your army running down my throat a concern? I just double checked your list...If the Dragon is hiding then I can eliminate the Riders as early as I want. The BG move a massive 10"(maybe 5") so they won't be a threat until at least turn 3~4...you have some Hydras/CoK's which I out distance with my Dragon Princes, Tironic Chariots and my Dragon...so, what advantages do you actually have? You can't even touch my Dragon by the looks of things...it could just breath fire all over those expensive and frail BG. :)

Answer this:


Do you play High Elves? I play both armies, a lot, competitively and none. Do you? I just want to know where we stand here; or are you another theory-farmer.

Draconian77
19-08-2009, 02:21
I did answer that. Check my last post maybe?

@Sarah S

Like I said, good for you... Your opinion however, doesn't match the general concensus.

LKHERO
19-08-2009, 02:24
I did answer that. Check my last post maybe?

I don't see an answer.

I see hypothetical or imaginary units from theoryhammer.

Draconian77
19-08-2009, 02:27
Right...then you aren't looking very hard.

Post #220
Edited at; 2:20
Your response; 2:24

I already answered the question. Now is not the time to argue over the merits of theoryhammer, considering that you have been one of it's main users up to this point. :)

willowdark
19-08-2009, 02:28
Too high on your horse there, LKHERO. I don't play Ogres or Lizards, but I've played against them more than any army in the last year. Lizards more than any army in my life. I don't have to play them to have a consummate knowledge of how they work. Playing against them has taught me every bit as much.

Don't think so highly of yourself because you play both armies. A good player should know the armies he faces as well as the people who play them.

Tarian
19-08-2009, 02:28
I have to agree with pink text over there. Saying that DE will win a maneuverability war against HE is one thing. (Harpies, for example, provide cheap mobility.) I also fail to see how DE will have mobility over the majority of a HE list.

Dragon Princes are tied (as far as I know) to second fastest Heavy Cav in the game. This is faster than any DE non-flyer that I know of personally. Our infantry move the same... Our chariots (Tiranoc) move faster, Reavers are as fast as Dark Riders...

That being said, I play DE, and it usually ends in a bloody mess, not with one side massacring the other side.

Some of the DE stuff works well against HE, others don't.

As for the Ring of Hotek, as far as I can tell, it gives a 2-dice cast a 1 in 6 chance to miscast. Bad? Yes. Utterly unavoidable? No. My level 1 Caddy really doesn't care if you have the ring, and if I'm fielding my level 2s, they'll just have to target something outside the ring's bubble.

Draconian77
19-08-2009, 02:32
I have to agree with pink text over there.

Do you mind if I sig that? I haven't laughed so hard for quite a while. :D




In general, what he and willowdark said.

LKHERO
19-08-2009, 02:32
Right...then you aren't looking very hard.

Post #220
Edited at; 2:20
Your response; 2:24

I already answered the question.

OK. Now that I have a better understanding to who I'm speaking to, I'd like to tell you that theory just doesn't match play experience. And this is not just me speaking from experience.. this is me observing games from other gamers as well. Everyone has the same issues with Dark Elves, every game.

I don't like playing with a Star Dragon every game. But against that sort of list, I have to. Why? Because Magic isn't a strong option. I wonder why..

There's so much that's already covered in this thread. Dark Elves' items make High Elves play a certain way, or lose. I can't say the same about the other way around. This is in consideration that both players know what they're doing, and not pitting a GT-style list against below-moderate friendly play.

Tarian
19-08-2009, 02:36
@ Draconian77

Knock yourself out, glad to make you laugh. :)

BrPrometheus
19-08-2009, 02:39
The biggest problem with the list you provide above is that it is outclassed in a tournament by the other two power army builds:

Deamon bloodthirster builds --> The poster above is correct the popped bloodthirster ruins your army becuase he avoids your unit of never going away and proceeds to rip all of your monsters to shreds. He then lobs one of his big and powerful units into you unbreakable stubborn unit and proceeds to win the combat over time through attrition.

Vamp Raising builds --> Your magic defense does not work well against this army as you just cannot stop most of his magic as little if any is actually cast on you. If he comes prepared he will have 100's of ghouls and zombies out. Your black guard get bogged down in massive ghoul units that they can never break. The ghouls also slow down if not suffucate one of your hydra's while a wight lord goes after the other. Your dragon is about the only thing he has to worry about and he has the black coach. Once you are away from the ring he can overwhelm your magic defense.

So the problem is that yes that build is brutal but it is too easily countered by the other top tier armies in a tournament.

To weigh in on the original subject. As a high elf player I was amazed when I actually bought the dark elf book how good it had it. Unlimited characters (assasins), cheap brutal monsters (hydras), good basic shooting (repeater bolt throwers, and repeater crossbows), unbreakable, stubborn units (black guard), great magic items (unkillable combos for 45 points, unbelievable magic defense for cheap, strong banners that stack well), really good offensive magic, great basic rules (hatred). The basic trooper and most units in the army I think the high elves stack pretty well against, but the items above give the army an edge across the board in a straight up match up against the high elves. The biggest advantage I have seen is that people that play this type of army get lazy with their tactics becuase it is so easy to win with that they make some mistakes. I have to outplay them to win but they are so used to players of non deamon non vc armies not being in their class that they discount us until we already have an edge.

With all of that said I wish the books were more balanced. My wood elf army sits on the shelf gathering dust, My high elf list has gotten more and more unbalanced, and while I think my lizardmen could get there they need a complete revamping.

Draconian77
19-08-2009, 02:48
OK. Now that I have a better understanding to who I'm speaking to, I'd like to tell you that theory just doesn't match play experience. And this is not just me speaking from experience.. this is me observing games from other gamers as well. Everyone has the same issues with Dark Elves, every game.

It's difficult to know where to begin...but lets start with the fact that you observing other games involving other gamers is indeed, speaking from experience.(Just not personal experience.) :D

Secondly, you assume that just because I don't play with HE's that my opinions, tactics and experience are less valuable than your own, which is irksome to say the least. For the record, my three main opponents are HE, WoC and DoC and as willowdark put it, I have learnt a lot from repeated encounters with them.

I seriously doubt that everyone has the same problems with the DE, I mean, this threads very existence and continuation is proof enough of that if we think about it. :eek:

I don't like playing with a Star Dragon every game. But against that sort of list, I have to. Why? Because Magic isn't a strong option. I wonder why.

Now, here we go again.
Firstly, when you say magic, you mean "Teclis" don't you? Teclis is deifnately not a good choice against them, but any normal amount of magic users using easier lores can still have an impact. Less of an impact to be sure, but still an impact. I mean, lets not forget that there are other races which are very resistent to magic aswell.

So, you don't like taking the Star Dragon to every game...but you will take the Black Dragon+Assassin+ASF BG+Bidra to every game? Now, correct me if I'm wrong...but you are now just arguing against yourself. You cannot really play the "I want diversity" card when you clearly don't! :)

There's so much that's already covered in this thread. Dark Elves' items make High Elves play a certain way, or lose. I can't say the same about the other way around. This is in consideration that both players know what they're doing, and not pitting a GT-style list against below-moderate friendly play.

I don't understand your point of view, the Ring only "forces" you to play smart. It's no different from hiding a Dragon from artillery. The Pendant doesn't really "force" you to do anything... So, what exactly is being forced?

I don't think that we can agree with each other. I still think that the DE have the stronger book(6/10 wins to the DE was my initial thought-nothing has changed that.) but whereas you see an unscalable mountain, I see a game where either player could win, with the odd's tipped just slighty in the DE's player favour.


Pink filler.


With all of that said I wish the books were more balanced. My wood elf army sits on the shelf gathering dust, My high elf list has gotten more and more unbalanced, and while I think my lizardmen could get there they need a complete revamping.

Don't give up on the Lizards just yet, EVC alluded to it earlier but they will be a very powerful force. I actually think people should focus less on the Engines and look into other units. We all hope for balanced books, but giving up when you seem weaker than your opposition is just not Irish damnit! :)

LKHERO
19-08-2009, 03:07
Too high on your horse there, LKHERO. I don't play Ogres or Lizards, but I've played against them more than any army in the last year. Lizards more than any army in my life. I don't have to play them to have a consummate knowledge of how they work. Playing against them has taught me every bit as much.

Don't think so highly of yourself because you play both armies. A good player should know the armies he faces as well as the people who play them.

Play with Dark Elves and High Elves against all types of lists and against eachother makes me much more familiar in this match up (thread) than most people here.

Unlike others, I proudly admit the plus and minuses of both races. I know their weaknesses and their strengths. Am I a min-maxer? Of course. I don't believe in taking crappy units unless you "want" to.

To sum up my opinions in this thread, just answer these questions. A simple yes or no should suffice.

1. Do Dark Elves have a stronger book than High Elves?
2. Are some of the Dark Elves items underpriced?
3. Is the Hydra underpriced?

If you answer yes to 2 of the 3 questions asked, then this thread is pretty much decided. If you deny these, then it's obvious that you're a fanboy and would clearly deny clear facts that are mutually agreed upon by good players everywhere.

Tarian
19-08-2009, 03:09
Play with Dark Elves and High Elves against all types of lists and against eachother makes me much more familiar in this match up (thread) than most people here.

Unlike others, I proudly admit the plus and minuses of both races. I know their weaknesses and their strengths. Am I a min-maxer? Of course. I don't believe in taking crappy units unless you "want" to.

To sum up my opinions in this thread, just answer these questions. A simple yes or no should suffice.

1. Do Dark Elves have a stronger book than High Elves?
2. Are some of the Dark Elves items underpriced?
3. Is the Hydra underpriced?

If you answer yes to 2 of the 3 questions asked, then this thread is pretty much decided. If you deny these, then it's obvious that you're a fanboy and would clearly deny clear facts that are mutually agreed upon by good players everywhere.

I believe that most people here agree that DE have the overall stronger book. I think the current debate is whether or not it's 6/10 wins or 8-9/10 wins.

LKHERO
19-08-2009, 03:11
the Ring only "forces" you to play smart.

No. The ring makes 3-dice spells cast 44% chance of failure and 77% at 4-dice. Meaning casting big spells or any spells that you want to get off meaningless. For a 25-point item that can be put on a champion, it's not a smart choice. It's overpowered.


I don't think that we can agree with each other. I still think that the DE have the stronger book(6/10 wins to the DE was my initial thought-nothing has changed that.) but whereas you see an unscalable mountain, I see a game where either player could win, with the odd's tipped just slighty in the DE's player favour.

I will comment further, but to sum it up: I think the chances are 20/80 in DE's favor.

Emeraldw
19-08-2009, 03:54
I seriously doubt that everyone has the same problems with the DE, I mean, this threads very existence and continuation is proof enough of that if we think about it.


Actually Drac, most of the posters here beyond you and a couple more agree that DE are indeed over the top. You in fact are its most vocal defender. LKHERO is going overboard and is getting offensive but EVC, myself, Kerril, and others have all more or less come to the conclusion the dark elf army is more than just "good." I would say this thread supports the idea that Dark Elves are a superior book, and on just the HE vs. DE match up, I can honestly say that there is very little I have going for me over my dark cousins with all things considered.

@LKHERO: Please try to be nicer. You are being very hostile to Drac. I understand that there has been a long discussion on it and it might be getting a little personal but once again, this is a game about little plastic men. Lets treat it as such :D

kardar233
19-08-2009, 06:12
Lvl4 on Peg, 2 scrolls, power stone and the Focus Familiar.
Lvl2 on steed with Tome of Furion and a power stone.
Assassin w/ RoK and Manbane, EHW.

20 Warriors w/ Shields, full command and the Warbanner.
2 x 10 RxBs w/ Shields and musicians.
3 x 5 Harpies.

6 CoK w/ full command, Standard of Slaughter and the Ring of Hotek.
9 Shades w/ GW and a Blood Shade.
1 Cold One Chariot.

Hydra.
2 RBTs.

I would run away from that list, screaming like a little girl who's been flayed and dipped in sulfuric acid.

I would rather face a High Elf Star Dragon list than that.
I would rather face Mono-Khorne Daemons than that.
I would rather face a Grail Knight Deathstar than that.

Kerill
19-08-2009, 07:08
I did answer that. Check my last post maybe?

@Sarah S

Like I said, good for you... Your opinion however, doesn't match the general concensus.

And what exactly do you claim is the general consensus? Sarah S plays warriors of chaos, as do I and I can tell you that without a doubt the DE are the worst match up- combat units that an-all comers WOC force can't deal with. Magic completely neutered and against a strong shooting phase with no comeback. I can happily throw my WOC against daemons or VC and my main combat unit can at least attempt to take on anything nasty in those books and if the dice roll half well can stand it's ground. Against dark elves that main combat unit doesn't stand a chance in hell against black guard supported with cauldron and will handily get torn apart by a hydra with killing blow. Against fleshhounds with khorne herald my knights have a chance to win if they get a charge through superior tactics. Against black guard star they will get almost completely wiped out (or completelt wiped out) without even a chance to cause damage. Lizards are a really nasty match-up for WOC as well but dark elves are just silly.

My lizards are outmatched by dark elves but at least have a lot more tools to deal a bit of damage than my WOC. Again DE are the worst match up for my lizards.

If you go to the pyramid vault you will see DE are seen as the worst army to fight against. Go to the daemonic legion- same story there. Looking at ulthuan.net there are quite a few threads there about the overpoweredness of DE although opinion seems to be split whether daemons or dark elves are worse (and it seems the majority think VC are easier which is surprising). Now I don't visit the forum for every race but feel free to look around them and see what people think of DE. They are by no means the soft option of the big three. More importantly apart from amazing units across the board some things in the DE list (magic items and to some extent the hydra) are more game-breaking than anything else in the game.

Nor indeed is this even the hardest build (LKhero's cheese build is worse) but almost every single DE build I see on the internet in army list forums, battle reports has the same cheese repeated again and again. DE lists aren't hard to use at all. A black guard deathstar is not harder to use than a GG one (in fact its easier). You don't need to use a 175 point hydra carefully to get its points back- you actually have to struggle for it not to. Taking a shadestar with 40 shades and lots of shooting backup so you have 100+ Bs5 shots per turn and a unit that can beat almost anything in combat doesn't require skill to use beyond the possible repetitive strain injury of rolling all those dice.

DE used to require a lot of skill to use since they had a weak fragile list with a lot of weaknesses. Now they have almost none- insane magic defence for few points and the ability to outshoot anything short of a pure gunline. At the same time they can outfight any unit in the game with ease. Theit main combat unit is immune to bloodthirsters or dragon riders and to get a combo charge in means getting past the hydras and very hitty knights/chariots and possibly also avoiding a DE dragon which is by far the most effective for its points in the game.

The fact that you can "work around" the ring is no different to the fact that you can "work around" flamers or bloodthirster backed up with hounds and heralds- the issue is that the work around requires so many points/list tailoring/mistakes from your opponent to work that it is simply broken.

I really can't see how cheesed-out DE require large amounts of "skill" to win with. Our local DE player wins almost 100% of his battles and is in no way a great player of warhammer. Some armies need skill to win well and need to make careful decisions in building an all-comers list as well. DE without the broken stuff are still a very strong and competitive army, but would definitely need more care to win with well.

This isn't an attack on DE generals skill- some may be great, some daemon generals are also very very good at warhammer, so are some VC generals, but none of these armies need a lot of skill to win with. For the record WOC aren't the most skilful army (and an all-knights build requires almost no tactics at all beyond "screen with hounds for a turn"). My VC army is a piece of **** to play, its depressingly effective and isn't even an optimised build. My lizards have lots of high movement and skirmishing units that makes them a lot more forgiving to play than my WOC. The temple guard are far easier to use than my warrior blocks because they almost can't be broken and have no psychology weaknesses- i.e. takes little though to use them (thankfully they are nowhere near as hitty as black guard/shadestar so at least need a little bit of consideration albeit not much). Having fast/manoueverable units does NOT require a lot of tactics (WE being an exception here since they are a truly fragile army, only moderately hitty and have very little rank bonus or rank breaking ability). If a player takes a mixed list with a lot of M4 infantry and beats my lizards he has undoubtedly played far far better than I if he has managed to overcome my huge movement advantages. Terradons are a great unit, super manoeverable and with good "shooting" and a bit of combat potential- i.e. a unit its hard to do badly with, not a unit that requires a lot of skill to use. An ogre player who uses their ****-poor troops in an MSU style with multiple possibilities for countercharges and pulls out a win deserves respect. Pushing deathstar in front of your opponents highest VP unit so it gets charged and wipes your opponent out needs no skill. An O&G player who deploys his army for mutual support between the parts of their army and beats a harder or more manoueverable army with M4 orc boyz whilst needing backup plans in case of animosity has also done a great job.

The old DE MSU playstyle undoubtedly took a lot of skill to do well with and had quite a lot of bad potential matchups. Blackguard/shadestar/dragon and hydras does not take anything like that kind of skill. Claims that the current edition of DE need a lot of skill to win with are IMO completely wrong. There are plenty of "suggestions" from DE opponents that they need to use X,Y and Z tactics to get around problem A, what difficult situations do DE players need to use tactics to get around? How many problems simply aren't a case of charge with BG/dragon/hydra or shoot it to death?

I won my last game against DE not because I played incredibly well, but because he made glaring mistakes. Had he not made those mistakes there was absolutely no way I could have won the game- no matter how much skill I played with. My list is hardly soft either and yet that's how the mismatch stands.

I've lost plenty of games of warhammer, and one of the best games I've had in 7th was when one of the local O&G players massacred my WOC with a balanced O&G list (not that there are many unbalanced O&G lists). Tremendous game and kudos to him for outplaying me, learned a lot from that game. I don't like to lose simply because there was nothing I could do, nor do I like to win on that basis (and that has happened with my VC, DOC and lizards). Losing is bound to happen sometimes since its a game of dice. I know that different players want different gaming experiences, but don't any of the DE players on this thread find it makes a poor game for both when your opponent is completely outmatched from the get-go?

Draconian77
19-08-2009, 08:09
Play with Dark Elves and High Elves against all types of lists and against eachother makes me much more familiar in this match up (thread) than most people here.

No, sadly that really isn't the case.

To sum up my opinions in this thread, just answer these questions. A simple yes or no should suffice.

(Snipped)

Right...I would love to see something logical come out of your mouth but it appears this is all that I'm going to get. Everyone has said that the DE have the stronger book, myself included. The argument/debate/chit-chat is over the perceived level of strength. :p

If you deny these, then it's obvious that you're a fanboy and would clearly deny clear facts that are mutually agreed upon by good players everywhere.

We must be meeting different groups of "good players" then. All the ones that I have met can beat DE with HE. Sure, it's not easy but it's not exactly difficult either. Your claims that the HE stand no chance against the DE are just ridiculous unless you are taking about tailored lists, in which case, you could say the same thing for dozens of match-ups.



No. The ring makes 3-dice spells cast 44% chance of failure and 77% at 4-dice. Meaning casting big spells or any spells that you want to get off meaningless. For a 25-point item that can be put on a champion, it's not a smart choice. It's overpowered.

You missed the point completely. Firstly, I wasn't calling the Ring a "smart" item, I was calling adapting to it smart. Obviously you missed that... Secondly, you have a 0% chance of miscasting on those 3 or 4 dice, you know why? You didn't attempt that big spell in the first place, because you where playing smart! :D Like myself and EVC discussed earlier, just chucking PD at the Ring is stupidity, plain and simple.


Actually Drac, most of the posters here beyond you and a couple more agree that DE are indeed over the top. You in fact are its most vocal defender. LKHERO is going overboard and is getting offensive but EVC, myself, Kerril, and others have all more or less come to the conclusion the dark elf army is more than just "good."

You do realise that, by the numbers, the people contributing to this thread are split about evenly? I'm just speaking for the other side of the coin. It seems to have transformed from a "DE have an advantage over HE" thread into a "DE cannot lose to anyone, ever!" thread. :D

I would say this thread supports the idea that Dark Elves are a superior book, and on just the HE vs. DE match up, I can honestly say that there is very little I have going for me over my dark cousins with all things considered.

Then you aren't really considering all things;
HE's have the better heavy cavalry, better chariot, better dragon, better offensive magic, better special characters, better choice of elite units(although the DE BG are the best, they can't do everything that a choice of the HE elites could.)

Now, when it comes to the DE vs HE matchup, as has been stated, a tailored DE list should trump a tailored HE list. But when it comes to casual play or non-tailored enviroments, the difference in performance shouldn't be too large. Large enough for the DE to come out on top, yes. But claims of 20/80 are just a little too curlish for my liking...:angel:


And what exactly do you claim is the general consensus?

You truthfully don't already know?

The pecking order has been hashed out on Warseer in numerous threads, a quick search would reveal some of them I'm sure. However, for the sake of saving you the trouble, the overwhelming majority of people think that Daemons of Chaos are the most powerful race, followed by the Vampire Counts and then the Dark Elves and Lizardmen. This isn't my opinion, this is just what most players voted. Like I said, a quick search should return the same results.

As for your other points, I didn't really see anything of value so I won't waste space quoting. Suffice to say, I think that some of your opinions are unjustified.


I really can't see how cheesed-out DE require large amounts of "skill" to win with.

Please bear in mind that I agree with you here, I don't think a cheesy army requires much skill to win with either. I'm generally defending the average DE army, not the Dragon+BG bunker+toys type of army. To my mind these two things are different issues.

~I think that a competitive DE list has a small advantage versus a competitive HE list.
~I think that a soft DE list has a small disadvantage versus a soft HE list.

Right so...time to sleep.

LKHERO
19-08-2009, 08:30
We must be meeting different groups of "good players" then. All the ones that I have met can beat DE with HE. Sure, it's not easy but it's not exactly difficult either. Your claims that the HE stand no chance against the DE are just ridiculous unless you are taking about tailored lists, in which case, you could say the same thing for dozens of match-ups.

Firstly, I never said HE have no chance. I stated the odds were something like 20/80 in Dark Elves favor. That's because Dark Elves have everything that's needed to deal with High Elves in this new book. Absolutely everything High Elves have, Dark Elves have a cheaper answer. Here's what I think dent High Elves the most in no particular order: Ring of Hotek, Pearl of Darkness, Black Guard, Shades, Hydra, Assassins. Ring of Hotek puts duct tape over High Elves' best mages, Pearl of Darkness says no ballistics to our Black Guard, Black Guard because they beat every form of elite Infantry that HE have on the ground once they have their ASF banner, Shades because they outshoot everything High Elves have and can carry anti-cavalry Assassins (RoK and KB), and Hydras because whoever designed and priced this unit needs brain surgery.

Some general things in Warhammer really bother me too; like Hatred passing to mounts and ASF doesn't.. and ASF using I value regardless if I charged or not.

I'm going to say it right now. It almost seems to me that the new Dark Elf book was designed specifically to kill, murder and pillage High Elves. It resembles exactly what the state of balance of the game was for DE vs HE when High Elves got their new book and DE still had their old book. It was a bloody massacre going 80/20 in High Elves favor. But come on, let's get realistic here.


The argument/debate/chit-chat is over the perceived level of strength.

The argument here is how ridiculous it is that you don't find Hydras, Ring of Hotek, Pendant or the other things mentioned in this thread underpriced and considered overpowered. For some reason, your brain can't process that. That's OK for you, but not OK for me. I think logic in your head works for some things, but doesn't perceive game balance very well; which is the key point to my arguments most of the time. I believe Dark Elves are better than High Elves because a lot of the things in the book are underpriced. Black Guard, Hydra, Ring of Hotek and Pendant stand out the most. You, for some reason, think they are not, but the majority of the community think they are; Dark Elves included.


You missed the point completely. Firstly, I wasn't calling the Ring a "smart" item, I was calling adapting to it smart. Obviously you missed that... Secondly, you have a 0% chance of miscasting on those 3 or 4 dice, you know why? You didn't attempt that big spell in the first place, because you where playing smart! Like myself and EVC discussed earlier, just chucking PD at the Ring is stupidity, plain and simple.

Logic like this pisses me off beyond belief. How does your brain perceive that this is "OK" to have? A 25-point item that covers 12" of your army that basically outlaws big spells or "2-dice" spells that require 3 to cast with confidence. How is this strategy for anyone? Players shouldn't be forced into serious adaptation mode because of a 25-point item. The example you gave with the Dragon represents this logic beyond anything that I can give. My 621 point Star Dragon is afraid of 400 points worth of concentrated RBT missile fire which requires LoS, range and can't shoot at the Dragon once it's in combat. That is OK. My 500 points worth of a Archmage and Lv.2 is afraid of a 25-point item that's on a unit champion with almost no downside. How is that remotely OK? You following me on this one?

danny7865
19-08-2009, 13:25
Well this argument has descended to one item, making an army book......
1.The high elves infantry can make a mess of any unit of dark elf infantry without ASF.
2.The seer staff can ensure spells like beast cowers which can deal with the hydra .
3.The ring of fury will still throw a nasty magic missile at BG every turn .
4.BG are initiatvive 6 so send in a unit of dragon princes with a noble and you will get the jump on them.
Hatred forces units to pursue so you can set up flank charges easily......
And lore of fire and death have cheap magic missiles......
To beat the DArk elves the high elves certainly need tactics but 4 out of ten times they should win. I think that people think that

And I also think drac is right the ring forces you to think but that is the major probelm .

You should not rely on one phase of the game ( especially a phase as unpredictable as magic which might be messed up by a miscast anyway.)

If it is so problematic charge the BG with dragon princes and kill champ in a challenge, or spam mistress of the marsh on one dice in front of them so units at the edge of the radius are forced to move out of it .

For the record I think these items are problematic but as i suggested ways to deal with them and people arent interested I dont know what i can say constructively.

EvC
19-08-2009, 14:11
1. And they're so rare. In normal lists, typically you only ever see ASF Black Guard or infantry with an Assassin in them, who out ASFs the High Elves handily. Occasionally I'll see a unit of power dice accompanying a Sorceress- but it's not even safe to charge that unit because an Assassin could easily pop out.
2. All that effort to stop a single 175 point unit from simply moving for a turn...
3. All Dark Elf armies have 2DD, and will be kept just for this. Although Ring of Fury is still great and still goes off occasionally :)
4. The Noble will strike first, yes, but it's a roll-off for which of the elites strikes next. Last game I had was quite sad- Black Guard with Master charged my chunky Spearmen unit with my own BSB. Without the bonus of hatred, my BSB didn't even hit, whilst the Crimson Death champion killed my own BSB with ease- and 15 Spearmen died in the that and the next combat phase. Ok, it shouldn't have happened like that, but it just goes to show that you can't be sure. Even if the DP win the roll-off for first strike, so what? Sure, they kill the front rank and win the combat. The BG hold and strike at S4 with re-rolls the next turn whilst the DPs are down to S4 and the Noble too, probably. Let alone if there's any unit ready to countercharge.

I'm undecided on how often the High Elves vs Dark Elves match-up would go. I myself have a score of 3-3 (Two losses were from very old games though), plus a draw against 6th edition Dark Elves! But my army has some very anti-DE tricks, like Forliath's Robe which is great at stopping Assassins and drawing the enemy into carrying out suicide charges that just make them lose troops, plus heavy magic which rocks the enemy once the Ring is gone, no matter the cost. I'd probably say DE have the 7/10 advantage- it would be higher but with such a powerful army book, many DE players I know have gotten progressively worse at the game, assuming that they will never roll badly because their army is that strong, and then flailing and wailing when it does.

fubukii
19-08-2009, 15:04
1) in a tournament setting thats a true statement. I often in fun games take non asf/assassin loaded infantry. Also note that even HE infantry can beat dark elf cav and fliers, who do not have asf. Some High elf units can even beat the hydra assuming they dont get flamed/flanked. (note i agree hydras are underpriced just stating that some white lions or swordmasters could do a number to the hydra)
2) it may only stop 175 pt monsters, but it stops that 175 pt monster from using his flame template to rock your infantry or manuever to get a flank charge, or even stops him from charging. Beast cowers is the best spell in the game vs DES hands down. ( when i use my doc in tournaments and i play vs de i make sure my heralds all have beasts, even tho this is he you can still get 2 cower users easily)
3) true all dark elf armies have 2 dd generally 3 and 2 scrolls. My suggestion is to use your magic to kill his support units outside of the ring, such as those pesky shades/dark riders that have effective shooting. If the hydra is out of ROH nail him too. Dark elves win games because of thier support units performing along side the main parts of the army. If you ruin this synergy by destroying thier support units suddenly you gain a advantage. At this point you can use your redirectors and or support to gain a upper hand ( use eagles to keep the black guard busy for example).
4) Black guard will beat almost any he unit in combat minus the dragon on average. Phoenix guard if loaded out with a char or 2 may stand a small chance but not a very good one. evc you had some bad luck there :(

EvC
19-08-2009, 15:41
1. Let's be clear here, when you say "fun" games, you mean games where you're intentionally taking choices that would be seen as "weak", and not using them to the best of their abilities. I'm talking about normal, everyday- take-on-all-comers lists; and you see non-ASF infantry there about as often as you see Silver Helms in a High Elf army. Which isn't very often.
2. Well done on elaborating what "stop" means, but it doesn't change the cost-benefit ratio. If I'm taking Seer Staff, avoiding the Ring of Hotek and then blowing 3 dice on a spell, I want to do more than stop a >200 point unit from moving for one single turn. A Dragon, sure, massive unit of Knights, definitely... but stopping a Hydra moving for one turn? I need my magic to be doing all that stuff you mentioned in point (3)!
3. Standard practice, fear not ;)
4. Yeah the Black Guard should come out on top, my little example is not meant to show they're broken, just that they're damn reliable, and even if you do get the jump on them with init 6 models (perhaps with a Noble), then you're still not going to send them running, unless they are even more unlucky than I was in that example!

fubukii
19-08-2009, 16:20
1.By fun i mean not taking a competitive list (tournament list). I will still take the game seriously i dont like to let people win.
2. Sometimes it may be more beneficial to cowers that hydra, it will depend on the situation to be honest. Although lore of fire may be a better option since you can kill it. Depends on the army build.
3. glad we agree.
4. they dont run often, but it has happened to me :(

danny7865
19-08-2009, 18:54
I think it is safe to say that despite these arguments it depends on the person playing.
I hide the RoC and wait until 2 dispel scrolls and the might 3 dd are gone and then use the ring to target the black guard. I actually agree that it is best to try and avoid combat with the BG but with the scroll caddy build it means that once the ring has disappeared your opponent is a sitting duck and that is usually by the second or third turn.
A good high elf player will bait and use units like reaver knights to pull the dark elves out of position.And the beats cowers is an amazing spell when used with the curse of arrow attraction and 4 bolt throwers.......

I played a duo hydra list with frenzied corsairs and the BG ASF with the champion having the ring and scored a massacre.The Dragon prince champion with the helm of fortune is a ridiculous build (never let me down) and is perfect for killing most assasins.
I used my magic to pummel his spearmen and dark riders ,and my archers did the same.
The ring of corin dealt with the asf banner the turn he charged my spearmen and my bears anger noble (had it cast on him that turn with his 2+ armour save) tore his front rank to pieces.Then 9 spear attacks gave his bsb with the pendent and blood armour a quick death.
A lot of the luck went my way and i'm the first to admit that but i wasnt facing a weak list and high elves scored a massacre. Think players need to focus on their own game plan and stuff like the ring of hotek and pendent can be undone in the deployment phase. This game was a 2k game.
I think high elves are harder to play than druchii but i think that doesn't make a massive difference.Good players will always beat bad players and two evenly matched players will make a very even game. And that can be said against any army I've played

LKHERO
19-08-2009, 19:19
The Dragon prince champion with the helm of fortune is a ridiculous build (never let me down) and is perfect for killing most assasins.

I can safely conclude that you have no idea what you're talking about from the posts that you made in this thread.
How does a Dragon Prince Champion w/ Helm of Fortune deal with a ASF I10 WS10 4+D3 attacks KB with Hatred Assassin? How exactly does this play out in your head?

fubukii
19-08-2009, 20:04
most take all comers assassins have manbane rune of khaine, and therefore wont have killing blow.

But even if he did its not impossible for him not to get any killing blows, and only do 4 wounds it happens. In which case the 2+ rerollable save would hold. is it unlikely yes, possibly certainly.

LKHERO
19-08-2009, 20:28
See, here is where we're different, and will ever remain different. I don't see why people take Manebane over KB ever. They're worth the same amount of points, except with KB, you essentially gain dominance over any heroes/Lords that could hinder whichever unit your Assassin is in. Not to mention KB is super effective against Cavalry of all kinds, or anything with heavy armor for that matter; ranging from the Dragon Princes to Chaos Knights.

That's what I take in my "all-comers" list. Is it beardy? I don't think so. It's making the best of your points as this is a strategy game based on a limited point system. Maybe it's the competitive RTS player in me that automatically min-maxes every situation.. I see lesser more "friendly" options a waste of points vs. effeciency. These thoughts are then immediately erased from my head and discarded as sub-optimal choices.

fubukii
19-08-2009, 21:15
Killing blow is nice for sure, but theres a couple reasons i take manbane over it and i will explain why. I do feel both are solid choices and you can not do wrong with either. I tend to put my assassin in a unit of spearmen with Armor piercing. Now with manbane this becomes nice.

example one chaos knights:
we will assume the assassin gets 6 attacks and hits with all 6. just because.
6 hits 4 wounds with manbane, 2 after saves.
6 hits 3 wounds one being a KB. 2 3+ savesso probably .66 more. averaging 1.66 total

toughness 4 2+ save knights
manbane should net 2.64
the killing blow will net 2 wounds on avg. Manbane still on top.

vs toughness 3 it is better, but vs t4 and higher manbane is obviously.

In addition if my assassin is trying to killing blow characters he is being wasted. If they pass thier ward my assassin is dead. If they accept with thier champion my unit is getting mauled. the strength of the assassin in my opinion is to wipe out a rank of troops denying my enemy attacks. In my spear block i will start at 5CR + kills now if my assassin kills 4 guys in the front rank, im at 9 cr, to his 4 ish, then his char will swing and kill 2 maybe? i should win by 3 i like those odds.

In additon killing blow doesnt work on dragons/thristers/ogres etc. This is nice to get CR vs those big units that can not be killing blowed.

lastly I tend to take a cauldron, which can grant any unit of my choosing killing blow. Why take the upgrade if in a pinch i can give him it? Manbane is just generally more diverse.

Thats my thinking behind it, but i will agree its not a bad option it just doesnt fit in my lists. But in a tailored enviroment where im playing vs t3 only armies i will use KB.