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Signius
01-08-2009, 02:48
I'm a long time 40k player who is just starting out with fantasy, and I had a couple questions about equipment and Magic Items.

Is there an official ruling on whether you have to reveal what units have what magic items/abilities? In 40k WYSIWYG is considered important (at least by tournament officials) and in fantasy you can buy models like "High Elf Mage with Annulian Crystal" which makes it seem like this is the case in fantasy as well. But then again in the text of "Vauls Unmaking" in the high elf book, it says the opponent reveals all the magic items in a unit to you as part of the effect. And others have put forth strategies that depend on the opponent not knowing what magic items you have.

How common is hidden magic item play in WHFB? And in those cases where do you draw the line, all magic items, anything less than a magical banner, only talismans and other small items that wouldn't actually be displayed on the model? I just want to know what the default is, and what the points values are most balanced for.

Thanks!

bludsturm
01-08-2009, 04:07
Usually WYSIWYG is a bit more lax for Fantasy. Most players want to be able to look at an enemy's unit and see if it has spears or hand weapons, for example. For characters, having someone on the proper mount (if purchased) or giving the BSB an actual banner to hold, is often enough.

Gorbad Ironclaw
01-08-2009, 05:17
How common is hidden magic item play in WHFB? And in those cases where do you draw the line, all magic items, anything less than a magical banner, only talismans and other small items that wouldn't actually be displayed on the model? I just want to know what the default is, and what the points values are most balanced for.

Thanks!


It depends entirely on where you play. Some areas use open lists (exchanged before the game) some don't.

Given the number of items that let you see what your opponents magic items is it seems to me that the 'default' is that you don't know what magic items that are out there, but again, that's much more down to where you play than anything else. If you don't use open lists generally you don't announce magic items until they are used.

It should however be noted that magic items specifically do not have to by WYSIWYG anyway.

Signius
01-08-2009, 05:52
Thanks, that's good to know. Do you know of any items/abilities that have the sole purpose of identifying magic items (and thus would be completely invalidated by open listing)? Vaul's Unmaking for instance would still be extremely useful (probably even more so) with open listing.

Also, I've heard people discuss WYSIWYG in the context of Lores, specifically with empire mages, which just makes no sense to me, since one mage is supposed to have the ability to cast multiple lores but can only bring one to a battle.

Condottiere
01-08-2009, 06:21
Haven't really come across that, though there were specific miniatures cast to represent Wizards using specific Lores. I usually just declare mine.

Lord 0
01-08-2009, 06:37
In the fantasy lore humans are almost exclusively trained in only one lore of magic. Each of the eight Colleges trains only one colour of magic and they vary wildly in dress and so forth. For example, Amethyst mages (death) tend to carry scythes and have the black rose as their symbol. Bright mages (fire) tend to wear firery reds and oranges and carry more ceremonial Keys the higher in rank and power they become. Jade mages (life) go barefoot, carry sickles, and generally have a pretty druidic look etc.

Geep
01-08-2009, 06:45
The Empire army list has a 'Crystal Ball' magic item I think- It allows you to see what magic or hidden mundane items a unit has (all magic items, assassins, fanatics, etc.).

Open lists seem to be becoming more common, so items which reveal hidden items are now pretty uncommon (I remember a few editions ago they were very common- or at least easily accessible to all armies).

For wizard lores- You're supposed to roll for spells in fron of your opponent (IIRC), so your opponent should always know not only the lore each wizard has, but your spells as well. I always declare these things openly anyway.

narrativium
01-08-2009, 09:59
There's an Ogre item as well. There may be others.

As I understand things, magic items are the only items you don't reveal to your opponent before the game, though your opponent can ask what a model is armed with, or how it's armoured, and you ought to respond with the mundane equivalent - though, this can still give away the item to a savvy player.

Other than magic items, Goblin Fanatics and Dark Elf Assassins, your opponent can ask pretty much anything they want about your army - what a unit is armed with, whether it has any command models, what any of its unit-specific special rules are... I'm personally hesitant on the points value of a unit (some scenarios used in tournaments include "kill the most valuable unit") as it might give away magic items.

nosferatu1001
01-08-2009, 14:58
You don't reveal magic items until you use an ability of theirs: for example a sword of +1 to hit isnt revealed until CC. Bane head you woud declare at the start as you ave to nominate.

Mortius27
02-08-2009, 16:20
The Ogre item is called a "Rock Eye" it works like the empire cystal ball.

WusteGeist
03-08-2009, 02:00
Open army list is just about universal, so the days of hiding things in your army list is fairly the well done and gone.

Spirit
03-08-2009, 02:04
Open army list is just about universal, so the days of hiding things in your army list is fairly the well done and gone.

Not in the GW i play at, we never show lists. Much more fun that way. Even the staff have always done this.


You don't reveal magic items until you use an ability of theirs: for example a sword of +1 to hit isnt revealed until CC. Bane head you woud declare at the start as you ave to nominate.

Doesnt that depend on your definition of nominate? I can nominate on a piece of paper out of sight from my oppoent and the character has still been nominated.

I must say, i play it your way, but noone else i know does, they all want it secret.

TheSanityAssassin
03-08-2009, 04:28
I know it's a bit out of context in this thread, but I still wish Empire wizards were bought with a specific lore, at a significant price reduction. Lets you get in lots of magic, but not be hyper specific about it.

Looking at it this way, if you're Empire army hires a Wizard to travel with them, it's going to be from a specific college....unless you hire 8 and only ever let one out.....Humans can't know all lores like Elves/Slaan and others can fluffwise.

Condottiere
03-08-2009, 04:45
Wizards are cheaper than Elven Mages.

The Empire should seriously considering outsourcing magical tasks to Night Goblin Shamans. It will make the Chancellor of the Exchequer happy.

Gazak Blacktoof
03-08-2009, 09:48
A recent thread on the topic:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208884&highlight=WYSIWYG


A rules sub-forum search on "WYSIWYG" yields these results:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1505678

I hope that helps.

Falkman
03-08-2009, 11:24
Doesnt that depend on your definition of nominate? I can nominate on a piece of paper out of sight from my oppoent and the character has still been nominated.

I must say, i play it your way, but noone else i know does, they all want it secret.
Considering that some things tell you to "secretly nominate" while others don't, I'd have to say that unless it's stated that you do it secretly, you should do it in the open.

Mercules
03-08-2009, 14:05
Open army list is just about universal, so the days of hiding things in your army list is fairly the well done and gone.

Except, you know, everywhere it isn't.

How many army lists have "secret" things in them?

Assassins, Fanatics, and the like?

Fantasy is a game where you are not supposed to know certain things. One use Bound spells are fairly worthless especially the 40+ point ones that are out there when you use Open Lists and since army books are still coming out with high cost single use Bound spell items I believe the intent is still to have closed lists.

Condottiere
03-08-2009, 14:08
I have to agree on that, for generic heroes the ability to keep the items they have under wraps until used is a big advantage, whereas with Special Characters, everyone knows what they are packing.

Tae
03-08-2009, 18:25
Open army list is just about universal, so the days of hiding things in your army list is fairly the well done and gone.


Except, you know, everywhere it isn't.


Such as almost all of the major tournaments. I say almost, as I've yet to hear of a single major 'open list' tournament, but am allowing for there being some that I'm not aware of.

Quite frankly most of the magic items in WFB require to be hidden otherwise they become almost worthless. Not to mention other things like Assassins, Fanatics, etc.

Tykinkuula
04-08-2009, 04:12
Exactly. Can you even begin to imagine how many less times my cap'n with a sword of might would have sliced that dragon if my enemy knew what he was packing? How much easier it was to decide how to cast when you know all your enemys scrolls etc.? How much easier it was to decide to dispel if you knew all the bound spells and other nasty tricks? Knowing exactly where to go to avoid those pesky assasins after your characters, or whether to accpet that challenge or not?

Open lists make such an amount of changes on a major scale that it's not even the same game anymore.

Signius
04-08-2009, 04:26
Thanks a bunch guys, I think I may try to convince my group to try playing secret a bit, decide which way we like better.

Condottiere
04-08-2009, 06:51
You could house-rule it that to make selective items secrets, if that's your preferred playing style.

Mercules
04-08-2009, 12:23
Exactly. Can you even begin to imagine how many less times my cap'n with a sword of might would have sliced that dragon if my enemy knew what he was packing? How much easier it was to decide how to cast when you know all your enemys scrolls etc.? How much easier it was to decide to dispel if you knew all the bound spells and other nasty tricks? Knowing exactly where to go to avoid those pesky assasins after your characters, or whether to accpet that challenge or not?

Which Night Goblin units are packing Fanatics so you can release them from them with a sacrifice unit and keep your important ones away? Not to choose Fire as a Lore because your opponent has an item on their Lord and BSB that makes them immune to fire? Not to cast a MM spell on that unit with the LM character wielding the Mirror Shield?

Tarian
05-08-2009, 17:02
I haven't seen the Lore of Fire used against me for months now... it might be because I play HE... but...

Basically, we try to WYSISYG basic equipment, but magic gear is meant to be hidden in my opinion.

pcgamer72
05-08-2009, 17:27
Are there such things as Night Goblin units without Fanatics? :eek:

But in all seriousness, I enjoy having closed lists. I go to a fair number of large tournaments in the U.S. and I'd say the ratio is pretty even as to whether or not lists are closed or open. However, I believe it is starting to shift to where they are open.

Staurikosaurus
06-08-2009, 12:13
My experience has been semi-open lists.

You have a list to show to your opponent that details all mundane items your army has taken but no magic items or hidden upgrades such as assassins. A second list has a full breakdown including magic items and hidden items/characters etc.

People in my gaming group see this as the most fair way to play the game

Mercules
06-08-2009, 12:59
Are there such things as Night Goblin units without Fanatics? :eek:

Definately! Nothing ties up knights on a flank like the fear that Fanatics are going to come spinning out of that 60 point NG Mob. ;) Usually your opponent will "test the waters" with Fast Cav or some other expendable unit.


My experience has been semi-open lists.

You have a list to show to your opponent that details all mundane items your army has taken but no magic items or hidden upgrades such as assassins. A second list has a full breakdown including magic items and hidden items/characters etc.

People in my gaming group see this as the most fair way to play the game

This is the way I typically play. A base list with all the mundane options outlined and a Full list with all secrets revealed. This sometimes leads to "scouting" the opposition during tournaments that use this. Why is fun.