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Aryakas
08-01-2006, 00:47
If you were to take every army thats frequently mentioned as being cheesy or overpowered (Skaven SAD, Brettonian RAF, etc..) and pair them off against each other in a 1v1 battle to the death who do you think would end up winning the most games?

Tulun
08-01-2006, 00:49
I'd say luck would probably be a huge factor (though those Flying Units can be all over you within 2 turns, but Skaven shooting of death or Dwarf gunline could pop a lot of knights ;)), but either way, is it really worth playing games like that often? haha.

Major Defense
08-01-2006, 03:48
Luck (or the lack thereof) always seems to lay apart the best plans. Skaven SAD is all my Skaven-playing friend ever plays and he's not tactical slouch but it is by no means an undefeatable army. Sure, he'll mix it up with Ikit Claw, Vermin Lord or the Screaming Bell, but it seems that every Skaven list I see posted here is Skyre-heavy.

Eldacar
08-01-2006, 09:21
If you were to take every army thats frequently mentioned as being cheesy or overpowered (Skaven SAD, Brettonian RAF, etc..) and pair them off against each other in a 1v1 battle to the death who do you think would end up winning the most games?
Whoever the dice gods favour the most. Even something like the SAD can run into problems when they start miscasting on turn one.

spikedog
08-01-2006, 13:35
but it seems that every Skaven list I see posted here is Skyre-heavy.

I guess you don't read my army diary then ?

Still I think as most people have mentioned, luck will play the biggestfactor in the winner but I think if you were to play each battle say 10 times then it would be either the SAD or the magic heavy Tzeentch armies that come out on top more often.

skavenguy13
08-01-2006, 15:46
it seems that every Skaven list I see posted here is Skyre-heavy.

I invite you to take a look at the Council Of Thirteen thread, there's a link in my sig. Many army lists were posted there, commented and tweaked. Still, I have one of (if not THE) most Skryre-heavy list. It has:
9 jezzails
1 engineer level 2 with 2 scrolls
2 ratling guns (units of 25 clanrats with full command)
1 warpfire thrower (unit of 25 clanrats with full command)
1 warp-lightning cannon

And it doesn't even come close to a SAD list. *somehow* in the last tourney, I finished first in sportsmanship, composition and generalship (game results). The only placed I wasn't the best was in painting and it was enough to drop me to 3rd place.

So I guess you didn't see many skaven lists in your life.

Ganymede
08-01-2006, 17:00
That's not a SAD list. If we're talking 2250, that's simpy a normal skaven list with some scryre units. I see nothing at all wrong with it.

Muzzle
08-01-2006, 17:08
I guess you didn't see many skaven lists in your life.

Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. I can promise you one thing, I have seen more than I ever care to again. 4 US GTs, lots and lots of mini GTs and god knows how many random tournies. I have seen 1, that's right, 1 skaven list that wasn't a SAD, compared to the multitude that were. It's cool that you all talk about non-SAD armies in your thread, which I have read many times, as I also play skaven. However, those armies just never seem to make it off paper.

Lady Bastet
08-01-2006, 18:33
Bretonnia has an advantage over elements of the Skyre list- the Banner of Chalons

Skaven player "stand and shoot"
Bretonnian player "no thank you"

Ganymede
08-01-2006, 20:28
The problem with the standard of Chalons is that there are few places for it to go. Cheaper, support-tuned knights, such as small units of errant, realm knights, squires, or pegasus knights (the kind of knights you want hunting ratling guns and jezzails and such) can't take the banner.

athamas
08-01-2006, 21:31
IIRC SAD has 4" on the RAF... so with careful placement.. you will be able to gun them down before they charge you..

but its mostly luck...

skavenguy13
08-01-2006, 23:24
Sure, the banner of chalons could be very good. But you can take only 1, on an elite unit. And more importantly, what if you get shot down before you actually get to charge?

But this is like saying "I'll take the banner of winds to stop flyers when they charge me" because you're facing a RAF. In a tourney, it's illogical to take it since there's like a 1% probablitity the unit will get charged by dangerous flyers during the tourney. You could as well take an empire gunline with the item that causes fear to skaven. Many items are like that and although they're fluffy, I think they should never be used. Tweaking your list a little bit against a certain opponent can make sense, but it should be able to face most things, as an all-rounder.

Gotreksbrother
09-01-2006, 14:21
Bretonnians have a clear advantage in very high armour saves, the blessing (extra ward saves) and better movement than skaven... the bretonnian player will charge by turn two, three at the latest, and if they do have 4 units of pegasus knights and a lord on a pegasus and two lv 2 damsels (a scroll caddy and one with the silver mirror) in a unit of knights of the realm they can dictacte the course of the battle, pretty much shut down skaven magic, and take care of jezzails/warp lightning cannon with 1 or two units of PK while they other two slow down the skaven army and fly around in circles of the main skaven units or set up charges...

All in all the RAF will beat the SAD and Seer Council armies, and most other armies out there...

Adept
09-01-2006, 15:43
Many items are like that and although they're fluffy, I think they should never be used. Tweaking your list a little bit against a certain opponent can make sense, but it should be able to face most things, as an all-rounder.

While thats true for pick up games and tournament armies, it doesn't really apply as a general rule. Many people play 'grudge' matches and enjoy suprising their opponent, and many people who play lots of campaign games, where more specific items can be used with more reliability.