PDA

View Full Version : HE vs WoC



The_O
01-08-2009, 14:41
Just started a border princes campaign with my friends. Got owned by a heavy magic WoC army. Playing HE I'm worried about his chariots, since impact hits take away my advantage of striking 1st. Thinking about using 2 archmages, 1 with lore of metal (to try to stop his chariots) 1 with high magic. I have restrictions to my army based on the terrian i control when we battle, but does anyone have any suggestions for HE against WoC?

Arguleon-veq
01-08-2009, 14:50
What is he running?

If lots of Marauders, Spearmen will easily deal with them. If Warriors, you are best with Swordmasters, Knights? then take some White Lions.

For the Chariots how about a Noble with a Starlance on an Eagle or Steed? He will easily get the jump on Chariots and destroy them.

Condottiere
01-08-2009, 14:50
Sounds like 3K - High Elves work best as a balanced combined arms team, so you may want only one AM and one Prince, with or without an oversized lizard, though it should be noted that WoC are not renown for having missile weapons.

The_O
01-08-2009, 14:54
Recently he's been going 2 regiments of trolls, ogre or 2, marauders for core units and 2-3 wiz lords on chariots. Also, the point value will be between 2250-2500 depending on our terrain.

Condottiere
01-08-2009, 15:26
Then you have to either choose a Prince or Archmage.

With the Prince you can embark on a blitzkrieg campaign and take the initiative; HE also has White Lion Chariots, which may actually be the best ones in the game.

Kalec
01-08-2009, 16:07
Lion Chariots are marginally more powerful then chaos chariots, but cost more and have a poorer armor save. Not strong enough to crack warriors, and overkill against marauders.

Angelust
01-08-2009, 16:18
Lore of metal against chaos can be really painful. I took Teclis against a WoC list once, and completely dismantled his army before anything was even within charge range.

The_O
01-08-2009, 16:42
Yeah I am curious to see how metal can do. However, we don't play with special characters so I was thinking 2 AMs rather than Teclis.

willowdark
01-08-2009, 16:48
Lion Chariots are marginally more powerful then chaos chariots, but cost more and have a poorer armor save. Not strong enough to crack warriors, and overkill against marauders.

Lion Chariots are soft against shooting, but that's not a factor here. A clipping charge in combination with White Lions could do plenty through impact hits to protect it from retaliation and would swing combat in his direction.

What restrictions are we talking about here? You said there were some, but we need detail to help.

Lore of Metal is good, but don't overlook Lore of Beasts against WoC. With no range or LoS limitations, Beast Cowers can be huge against Knights and Chariots while giving you the freedom to deploy off the line, creating more space between him and you for you to maneuver into position or to give you a few extra chances to cast it since it will get scrolled on the first 2 turns.

Bolt Throwers are important too. I hope you're filling your rare slots. 2 RBT/2 Eagles or 3 RBTs/1 Eagle etc. Both are incredibly effective weapons against WoC.

Condottiere
01-08-2009, 16:54
Yeah I am curious to see how metal can do. However, we don't play with special characters so I was thinking 2 AMs rather than Teclis.You need 3000 points to have two Lord characters.

The_O
01-08-2009, 16:55
Currently the restrictions are as follows:
1 Rare unit (1 bolt thrower makes me sad)
4 Special units
2 Lords, 2 heros
4 Magic items (total of 180 pts)
Points: 2250-2500 depending on the terrain I will control

We are making restrictions based upon terrains or sections of a map we control. So the book restrictions are not in play.

willowdark
01-08-2009, 16:58
Wow, those are screwy restrictions.

I'd rather have an eagle than a bolt thrower. My WE have done wonderfully with one Eagle and no Bolt Throwers. ;)

And 2 archmages would be the way to go. One with Metal and one with Beasts, but I'd take one Lvl2 support caster, your choice of Lore, but fire could be good, and one Star Lance Noble supporting Dragon princes or some such.

Give the beasts Archmage either the Seerstaff or the Silver Wand, something to make sure she lands Beast Cowers. Then throw all her dice at it, it _will_ draw a scroll every time until the scrolls are gone.

willowdark
01-08-2009, 17:09
Oh! And Lore of Beasts has a Bot Thrower spell, so it's a win/win situation if you take the Eagle instead.

Condottiere
01-08-2009, 17:39
Off hand, since I'm rather vague with such stuff, how about:

A combat prince, with or without a star dragon, preferably with
Archmage, Book of Hoeth
BSB

Dragon Princes
1 White Lion Chariot
Phoenix Guard or Sword Masters
Shadow Warriors

2 x 10 Archers

Unuhexium
01-08-2009, 17:45
Lore of metal works wonders against just about any WoC army. Those spells with armourbased damage kills knights and warriors in droves and Law of gold (think it is) can shut down most heroes since they're pretty dependent on magical items and whatnot. I'm saying this as a WoC-player. Lore of metal is the most antiWoC there is.

acsmedic
02-08-2009, 05:56
Take 15 or 20 PG with the war banner. Then put a noble BSB with the battle banner in there. Then 2 units of 14 7x2 White Lions a unit of 20 spears and through in some cheap 115 pt silver helms. Yes silver helms they have a greater charge range than the chariots. Just the SH threat can allow you to get close with your infantry and preferably make him charge your 4+ Ward PG.

then an AM and 2 level 2's. If he is magic heavy take all high magic. through 3 dice drain magic at him 2 or three times and watch him squirm. If he is low magic then take Metal.

So you have a solid core of infantry that can take a chariot charge or two and not break, good magic defense and the ability to out maneuver him with some cavalry. Probably have some points left over for archers, BT, eagles or maybe even a chariot of your own. Do not forget that khorne marked units are frenzied and can be lead around if they are not properly screened.

stonetroll
02-08-2009, 06:30
Two words: Star Dragon.

WoC struggle with big gribblies if they don't fully commit to Gateway.

1 Rare sucks as you are more hampered by this rule than him (he can normally only have 2, you can have 4), so I'd say that HE should be able to take 2 Rare instead of just one (puts them on par with other armies).

Kerill
02-08-2009, 09:39
2 lords in 2250 points is a bit broken though, might want to rethink that restriction.

The_O
02-08-2009, 14:52
We are doing a boarder princes campaign, the base restrictions are 1 character, 2 special units, 1 rare unit, 3 magic items up to 100 pts. Players get bonuses to the restrictions based upon how many parts of the map they control. The rules are in the 6th ed. rule book i think.

Kalec
02-08-2009, 15:15
Dual princes on star dragons. You may not need an army.

Condottiere
02-08-2009, 15:25
Magically, you'd be defenseless, except for 2 DD.

TheSanityAssassin
02-08-2009, 16:40
But against Warriors you can just slam straight up the middle into combat like...turn 1, turn 2 at the latest....you should be able to survive 1 magic phase unless he manages to Gateway twice and roll big.

Condottiere
02-08-2009, 16:57
If he can snipe the riders out of their saddle, the units potentially lost half to a third of their combat power, plus there's a chance that the Dragons might sit tight and whimper.

King_Pash
03-08-2009, 00:08
I've recently played a large HE vs WoC battle (3K). In that, my 24xPG unit with Caradryan (he didn't do much) did more than enough damage. This, coupled with Tyrion and 9xDragon Princes pretty much did it for me. Oh, and it did help that i managed to get an Irresistible Spirit of the Forge on his Chaos knights and kill the whole unit in one turn.

So, with your restrictions in mind, here are my suggestions;
-15xPhoenix Guard (20 ideally) - Full Command, War Banner
-1xNoble - Armour of Caledor, Great Weapon, Guardian Phoenix
(Put these in the same unit and see them take chariots, knights, heroes and everything down!).
-2/3 Bolt Throwers (probably no other missile troops).
-Lvl 1 Mage - Jewel of Dusk, Dispel Scroll (High Elf magic and magic defence).
-6xDragon Princes - Full command, Banner of Ellyrion (put them behind terrain with one poking out to see the enemy and charge away at your heart's content!).
-2x15xSpearmen - Full command (anti-hound/marauder/table quarter claimers).
-12xSwordmasters - Full Command, Lion Standard (make sure you get these guys the Shield of Saphery from your mage - they are very soft!).

That should give you some ideas.

Good luck!

Kalec
03-08-2009, 00:14
If he can snipe the riders out of their saddle, the units potentially lost half to a third of their combat power, plus there's a chance that the Dragons might sit tight and whimper.

Not only are the odds of this happening even against a full suite of mages quite low, but this can easily be taken advantage of. Fly a dragon up each flank, with a mess of dragon princes taking the center. He won't have many troops if he is super-magic heavy, so he will have a hard time keeping his characters from being flanked and drawing LOS to the dragons. Princes outcharge chaos knights, which is about all he is likely to have, along with some hounds and horsemen. Nothing the dragon princes can't handle if unmolested by magic.

stonetroll
03-08-2009, 00:28
Dual princes on star dragons. You may not need an army.

Priceless :)

Will be hilarious to see what you do with the leftover ~1000 pts.

I suggest:

Min archers

Max Dragon Princes

Profit

Angelust
03-08-2009, 00:38
Two star dragons, and a dragon mage. Har har...

If you play a good, balanced list, WoC should really be in for trouble. Use skirmishers, fliers, and mobility to greatest effect. That and metal magic. ;-)

Condottiere
03-08-2009, 05:34
Despite a rather loose force structure, it's still limited to two lords and two heroes, meaning maximum two dragonriders.

Havock
03-08-2009, 11:15
Not only are the odds of this happening even against a full suite of mages quite low, but this can easily be taken advantage of. Fly a dragon up each flank, with a mess of dragon princes taking the center. He won't have many troops if he is super-magic heavy, so he will have a hard time keeping his characters from being flanked and drawing LOS to the dragons. Princes outcharge chaos knights, which is about all he is likely to have, along with some hounds and horsemen. Nothing the dragon princes can't handle if unmolested by magic.

Chaos knights can take a DP charge. DP's being only S5 on the charge really hurts their chances of beating the 1+ save chaos knights.
how it would go:
10 attacks, 5 hits, 3-4 wounds, chaos player likely saves al but one (3+ save).
Horses: 3 hit, one wound, saved.

Chaos knights strike back
8 attacks, 4 hit, 3-4 wounds. And you are down to a 4+ save.
horses: 4 attacks, 2 hits, one, maybe two wounds (S4)...

Angelust
03-08-2009, 21:00
My mistake. ONLY 2 star dragons...