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Elannion
08-01-2006, 02:05
I dunno whether im being stupid or not, on this item it says one use only but then it makes not mention of this later on and says that when the bearer is reduced to 1 wound they have a 2+ ward save. Is the one use only here as a rough thing that shows that its not always used or do you only ever get one 2+ save?

Drake Dun
08-01-2006, 02:13
Nobody has ever been able to figure out what it means for sure. It is one of those mysteries of linguistics, like Minoan Linear A.

Drake

Major Defense
08-01-2006, 03:01
Yeah, that was never settled to anyone's satisfaction. Maybe the 'one use only' was a typo or maybe they meant it to keep regenerating characters (can that list have them?) from abusing it.

Wickerman71
08-01-2006, 05:04
This has been brought up before Go Here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19046)

I really don't see how you can read it any other way than, if you are currently at one wound you get a one time only 2+ Ward Save for that one hit. Any other interpretation is simply reading in stuff that is not in print.

Drake Dun
08-01-2006, 08:33
I really don't see how you can read it any other way that if you are currently at one wound you get a one time only 2+ Ward Save for that one hit. Any other interpretation is simply reading in stuff that is not in print.

That seems like the most likely interpretation to me, yes. But the phrasing is genuinely bad.

"When the wearer is reduced to one Wound this item bestows a 2+ Ward Save" with "One use only" printed after the name of the item.

Read literally, "When the wearer is reduced to one Wound" indicates a single instant in time, and since the rest of the sentence is a clause subordinate to this one, this instant of time is when the "one use" of the item should occur. But you cannot actually use that save until you take your NEXT wound (the one that would reduce you to zero) so the only way to make sense out of the English here is to read "bestow" as "continually renders available" - which is what it means everywhere else when used of Ward Saves by GW.

To read it as meaning what you suggest (which I admit, is probably what they were *trying* to say) requires us to assume two English errors. First, to make it mean "can be used only when the wearer is down to one wound," it should not have been written as "when the wearer is reduced...", which indicates an instant in time. It should be "when the wearer has been reduced," which defines a state. Second, the "one use only" still does not really match up with the wording, since the operative verb is still "bestow" and if we are talking about a state stretching over a period of time, the "bestow[ing]" must be continuous.

On the other hand, assuming two English errors in one sentence is not unreasonable where GW is concerned. I think the most likely explanation is that they meant exactly what you are saying, but cannot write. I cringe every time I read this bit in the same book:

"Eternal Guard Fighting Style... they may fight with an additional rank (as if armed with spears)... Just like spears, the second rank cannot attack on the turn the unit charges."

That is fantastic. The second rank is just like spears. And here I thought they were ELVES who were treated as being equipped WITH spears.

This is the kind of thing I would say in casual conversation (although I would probably correct myself afterward). So basically if you imagine that everything that is printed in a GW publication is being muttered without real thought over a burger and fries between two friends, rather than drafted and put in print by an author, then your understanding of their rules will increase, and yes, then this rule means what you say. Probably.

Drake

god octo
08-01-2006, 15:48
I would not use the item unless you are playing against a friend, as if any rules questions are asked, you'll have nothing to back up your points. Ther item is soooo badly wored it is basically useless.

Elannion
08-01-2006, 16:27
Yeah thanks, it does seem very strange you could read it like that, but it then doesn't seem too great for one save which is the conditional aswell, but then a continuous might be too powerful anyway i dunno just have to wait for a q&a i suppose.

GranFarfar
08-01-2006, 20:46
Probably they mean just what Wickerman71 said. Whem comparing the item with other similar items which gives you a 2+ ward save against first wound sufferd and such, it is actually quite good because it is cheeper. But that is just in comparison to those utterly useless items, compare it with a normal ward save and it is crap.

But for some reason they have complicated things in the WE book(more than usual that is).
The stone of rebirth is one of the complications - why not just make it to a 2+ ward against first wound suffered? Probably because they wanted it to be "different", even if it in the end is exactly the same thing.

Same with that item which grants a 3+wardsave until you fail one save roll.
This item does the same thing as the "insignia of the quest"(I think), Bret item which grants a 3+ wardsave on the last wound.
Once again the only difference is when you get the save(Yes, one might argue that there are slight proīs and conīs for all the different items, but these are so small they donīt matter really) which is making things more complicated than necessary.

athamas
08-01-2006, 21:36
the problem for the last wound things is that if you are hit by a cannon ball and take multiple wounds you dont get your save!

GranFarfar
10-01-2006, 17:39
the problem for the last wound things is that if you are hit by a cannon ball and take multiple wounds you dont get your save!

Yeah true - but that is an rather unusual incident.

Da GoBBo
11-01-2006, 11:37
Instead of trying to explain every piece of wording on the item, one might try some common sense. As far as I can tell this could be used in two ways, it either gives a one time wardsave ones the char has been reduced to 1 wound (Wickerman), or ones the char has been reduced to one wound it has a 2+ ward from that moment on (Drake Dun). The rules mention it bein a one use only item, which wouldn't stack with this second explanation. If the effect would be continuous, who'd care if it was a one use only item? It would only sees to work after the death of the character, which would make it useless anyway. The one use only part can only mean that you get a 2+ wardsave ones after bein reduced to one wound. After the save has been taken the item crumbles and the save is gone.

Mad Makz
12-01-2006, 02:57
I think the one use only is in there to account for the fact that you can get regenaration on any character in the Wood Elf army due to the spell.

So you can't get down to one wound, get your 'once off' 2+ ward save, regenerate back the wound, then take another, and get anotehr 2+ save.

However, the item is still worded terribly, and needs clarification.

Da GoBBo
12-01-2006, 17:48
So you can't get down to one wound, get your 'once off' 2+ ward save, regenerate back the wound, then take another, and get anotehr 2+ save.

If the item has a continuous effect, you would even get the wardsave after bein on 2 wounds again. Nothing in the rules of the item implies that this would not be the case. The "one use only" part doesn't change this fact. To me, this means that the "one use only" part can only mean that you get a ones of a lifetime 2+ wardsave. Effectively this gives 83,33% change to gain an extra wound. Not quiet worth 30 points.

GranFarfar
13-01-2006, 20:37
If the item has a continuous effect, you would even get the wardsave after bein on 2 wounds again. Nothing in the rules of the item implies that this would not be the case. The "one use only" part doesn't change this fact. To me, this means that the "one use only" part can only mean that you get a ones of a lifetime 2+ wardsave. Effectively this gives 83,33% change to gain an extra wound. Not quiet worth 30 points.

True - but most other of those items cost about 40 points - so it is nothing new. It has just been moved from the first too the last wound. GW probably tried to make it "different" in this way and just ended up with a very confusing item.

Considering that +1 wound cost 50 points(?) this isnīt a suprise(I know thatīs not a very good deal neither)

Wickerman71
13-01-2006, 22:41
The Key as I see it is don't try & make it into a good item, just read what is in print.

-No other One Use Only has lasting effects, so why should Stone Of Rebirth be the first? There is no basis for this.

-If the Designer wanted the Mechanic to give a permanent 2+ Ward Save as long as the Model was at a single wound, why was it not printed in the description? There is no reason for this.

-Is a conditional permanent 2+ Ward Save for 30pts in character with Wood Elves? Looking at their other save choices I would say not.

I make no defence for how good or bad the item is, as far as I'm concerned it's not worth it's points. While the English grammar is not the best, there really is only one way to read it.

GranFarfar
14-01-2006, 08:32
The Key as I see it is don't try & make it into a good item, just read what is in print.

-No other One Use Only has lasting effects, so why should Stone Of Rebirth be the first? There is no basis for this.

-If the Designer wanted the Mechanic to give a permanent 2+ Ward Save as long as the Model was at a single wound, why was it not printed in the description? There is no reason for this.

-Is a conditional permanent 2+ Ward Save for 30pts in character with Wood Elves? Looking at their other save choices I would say not.

I make no defence for how good or bad the item is, as far as I'm concerned it's not worth it's points. While the English grammar is not the best, there really is only one way to read it.

That was a really great way of putting it. Agreed!